Ezzo v. Dobson. Who is scarier? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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Gentle Discipline > Ezzo v. Dobson. Who is scarier?
guestmama9972's Avatar guestmama9972 03:07 AM 07-12-2006
James Dobson does have a doctorate in psychology from a university in California. I can't remember where exactly but it is a well known school like USC. I haven't read what he says about spanking so I can't really comment about that. But I do appreciate what he says on some other issues like the importance of the family and speaking out against the prevalence of smut in the media.

I can't stand the Pearl's advice or Mr. Ezzo's. I haven't met anyone who practiced the beatings that the Pearls recommend, but I do know some people that took a class at church based on Ezzo's books and philosophies. Scary. It is almost like these people become brainwashed! My bro and SIL went to a couple of Ezzo classes before they knew what he advocated, and they quit when they observed the "cult-like" behavior of the Ezzo disciples.

This may be rather random, but there is a verse in Proverbs about "folly is bound up in the heart of a child but the rod of correction drives it far from him" more or less. As a child I thought that the verse advocated spaking. I recently heard the idea that the word "rod" actually refers to the same implement that a shepherd uses to guide his sheep. As in Psalm 23, "Your rod and your staff, they comfort me". It makes sense to me that a shepherd wouldn't use the rod to beat his sheep! Rather he uses it to gently guide them and to protect them from predators. In our home we don't use the physical shepherds rod, of course, but I like the idea that we are guiding our girls along in their lives.

Ok. That's it. My vote goes to the Pearls.

sophmama's Avatar sophmama 03:22 AM 07-12-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigianna
I don't see what being white European men has to do with it though. I don't think Europeans are any more likely to abuse their children than anyone else.
The culture surrounding those who did the translation of the earlier texts into English heavily influenced the word choices they made. The translation was done by white European men in a time of severe male domination and patriarchy. You can see it's influence heavily in the word choices they made in translation. I don't think Debra was saying that Europeans today are anymore likely to abuse kids than anyone else. It's about who did the translation centuries ago that are often used today to support abusive practices in the name of Christianity, especially by the Ezzos, Pearls, and Dobson followers.
Brigianna's Avatar Brigianna 03:38 AM 07-12-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by sophmama
The culture surrounding those who did the translation of the earlier texts into English heavily influenced the word choices they made. The translation was done by white European men in a time of severe male domination and patriarchy. You can see it's influence heavily in the word choices they made in translation. I don't think Debra was saying that Europeans today are anymore likely to abuse kids than anyone else. It's about who did the translation centuries ago that are often used today to support abusive practices in the name of Christianity, especially by the Ezzos, Pearls, and Dobson followers.
Sure, I don't doubt that there is cultural bias on the part of the translators, but I don't think European men are or were any more likely to give a translation that supports child abuse (which I don't think "train up" does, but regardless) than any other people.
DebraBaker's Avatar DebraBaker 09:38 AM 07-12-2006
Have you studied European history?

I think, today, Europe is, in many ways, more enlightened than US culture, but when the major translations were made (especially the King James Version,) Europe was a dark place for women, children, and people of color.

Have you read some of the sexist things Martain Luther or John Calvin have written? Say, off the top of my head, if a woman dies in childbirth, oh-well, not much was lost, Women were given absolutely no civil rights until 1840 (when they were given property rights in Britian because they were no longer considered their husband's property.)

Children were treated to the successor of Patrafamilias. Fathers, in a large sense, *owned* their wives and children.

Why did Adam, for example, get cursed with "hard work," farming the land, and Eve was cursed with "pain" in childbirth?

They're the same friggin Hebrew word, Estev(sp). So, in the 1800's men were able to enjoy labor saving farming equipment, but many pastors taught that women couldn't receive anastesia for a difficult labor because it would be undermining G-d's will for her to go through pain to give birth.

Translators!!!!

Same with Eve as, "Helpmeet."

Eve is no more "helpmeet" than G-d Himself, because 16 or the 20 times the Hebrew word appears in the Bible the "helper," is G-d (and the one getting helped is a human being.) Why is the only tim the word rendered, "helpmeet" when it was used for Eve?

Um...white people with penises.

...I would imagine small ones since they seem to need to take every opportunity to put other people in a servile position.
georgia's Avatar georgia 12:55 PM 07-12-2006
Fascinating discussion....but I'd ask that we try and remain as close to the original post's topic as possible without veering to far afield. Thanks!
sophmama's Avatar sophmama 07:40 PM 07-12-2006
I think the culture that these ideas were formed out of is very important to understanding where we are today with the Ezzos, Pearls, and Dobsons. The patriarchal culture (lead/ dominated by European males) has everything to do with what happened in translation by these authors. If they hadn't been male and in a historic time of patriarchy that happened to be centered in Europe, the translation would have very likely come out completely differently, and today we wouldn't be having this conversation. They all teach the same stuff, but to different severities.
August's Mama's Avatar August's Mama 09:03 PM 07-12-2006
OMG I had no idea any of these lunatics existed. I am seriously drying the tears from my eyes as I type. The Pearls page is absolutely horrifying and makes me question freedom of press (not really but my god). I cannot believe that he advises training a baby by putting a toy out of reach and then hitting them if they go for it WTH?!?!?!?!
Urghhhhhhhhhhhhh, I am so so so so angry.
Kat
The4OfUs's Avatar The4OfUs 10:20 PM 07-12-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by paquerette
I just want to say, I saw the thread title and immediately thought of Celebrity Death Match. Not very Gentle, I know, but darn funny to one who watched too much MTV back in the day. :
OMG, I'd LOVE to see the claymation on THAT match. :
godusjourney's Avatar godusjourney 06:17 PM 07-13-2006
I just had to post this. After reading this thread, I decided to look the 1st book (to train up a child) by the Pearls up on Amazon.com and read some reviews (btw, most of them were negative...I think it got 2 stars), but here are two reviews I found. Scary, huh?


"I find it interesting people that are opposed to this book are usually the ones that have the *little terrors* themselves. All to many times do we go into a place of business and hear a child screaming at his mother while she looks away. SHAMEFUL I say. I have whipped all of my kids and they are respectful to themselves, my husband, me and others. We live in a household of respect. A respect for EVERYONE in the house not just mom and dad. Sounds like some need to re-read Michael Pearl's book or write to them and ask questions if they don't understand, cause people, it is pretty clear on what NOT to do." She gave it 5 stars....

and another 5 star review that I couldn't figure out if it was sarcastic or for real, but he DID give it FIVE stars... so I dunno???...

"Finally! What this world will need in 20 years are subservient, unquestioning young men and women ready to carry out the will of God's most righteous servants: America's Christian Right. And this book will provide them in droves.

Please, please, PLEASE adhere to the teachings in this book. America will need more cannon fodder soon and your children will fulfill that role perfectly."

SCARY...
sophmama's Avatar sophmama 02:49 AM 07-14-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by godusjourney
"Finally! What this world will need in 20 years are subservient, unquestioning young men and women ready to carry out the will of God's most righteous servants: America's Christian Right. And this book will provide them in droves.

Please, please, PLEASE adhere to the teachings in this book. America will need more cannon fodder soon and your children will fulfill that role perfectly."

SCARY...
:
Brigianna's Avatar Brigianna 05:57 AM 07-14-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by godusjourney
and another 5 star review that I couldn't figure out if it was sarcastic or for real, but he DID give it FIVE stars... so I dunno???...

"Finally! What this world will need in 20 years are subservient, unquestioning young men and women ready to carry out the will of God's most righteous servants: America's Christian Right. And this book will provide them in droves.

Please, please, PLEASE adhere to the teachings in this book. America will need more cannon fodder soon and your children will fulfill that role perfectly."

SCARY...
I would be almost sure that that is sarcastic based on the use of the term "cannon fodder." I've been wrong before, but as far as I know, that is exclusively a derrogetory term. Other than that, though, it could easily pass for something a Pearl person might actually say.
Joannarachel's Avatar Joannarachel 09:51 AM 07-14-2006
My guess is that it's sarcasm. Although it would probably go right over the head of your average Pearl supporter :
DebraBaker's Avatar DebraBaker 10:28 AM 07-14-2006
Over the head of a Pearl supporter is a relatively low elevation.
CaraboosMama's Avatar CaraboosMama 11:09 AM 07-14-2006
I think Dobson is scarier and more subversive mainly because he is more accepted by the mainstream As many posters mentioned, Ezzo and Pearl would be quickly rejected by most reasonable people. But because Dobson says some reasonable things mixed with with shite...many people percieve him as a wholesome authority figure. I hate living so close to his "Focus on the Family" center - it is such a misnomer for his beliefs!!
Wugmama's Avatar Wugmama 09:16 PM 07-03-2007
I just saw someone post that compared to Ezzo, Dobson is Dr. Sears. I don't think so.

~Tracy
akfirefly76's Avatar akfirefly76 03:17 AM 07-04-2007
My family visited a business associate this weekend. They have two kids (5 yr old boy and 20 month girl). My daughter is 18 months.

My daughter was curious, and constantly wanting to explore the new house. Their house is VERY nice. lots of expensive objects, art, breakable things... all at floor and baby levels. candles burning in the corner on the floor, etc. Things that my daughter would go after in a second.

Their daughter just sat at the table and blinked. I never saw this child laugh, or smile, or act like anything other than a little china doll. The parents kept watching me and my husband chasing our daughter, they'd look at each other, shake their head and smile.

Reading that page on the Pearls... that so seems like something they would do. Respect and obedience are big with them.

But I look at the difference in our daughters. I'm SOOOO glad mine is curious about the world and not afraid of being herself.
Fuamami's Avatar Fuamami 03:25 AM 07-04-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by nextcommercial View Post
I read some of James Dobson. I liked him fine, but used what I liked and tossed the rest.
Yeah, my SIL and bro are big fans of Babywise, but they don't make their kids cry it out and she's nursed them all until they were at least three. They're totally gentle, kind parents.

But they still give Babywise all the time as baby gifts.:
sagira's Avatar sagira 07:44 AM 07-04-2007
The Pearls make me sick to the stomach.. and very sad for the children whose parents espouse those principles :Puke

Dobson makes me angry

Ezzo makes me laugh in an evil way (in: it's so ridiculous, it's ludicrous sort of way) and then

I'm usually a gentle person too, but oh boy, Dobson makes me red in the face. The Pearls are so scary and cultish, I always feel like I'm dealing with closet sadists, criminals and atrocious creepy acts.

So definitely the Pearls
my3peanuts's Avatar my3peanuts 01:12 PM 07-04-2007
The Pearls by far.... Then Ezzo...
IfMamaAintHappy's Avatar IfMamaAintHappy 01:20 PM 07-04-2007
Pearls
Ezzo
Dobson

in that order. I dont think Dobson is any more insidious than the others. You just dont get to hear them like you hear Dobson's voice on the radio. I dont think Dobson's any worse than Tedd Tripp, actually (Shepherding a Child's Heart). But knowing Pearl and Ezzo devotees, cultlike followers, and how their perspective on children in general is so different from anyone elses.. I think their stuff is worse. Their stuff goes so much deeper than just correction and punishment, which is all the further I really see Dobson and Tripp going. But that's my perspective, and maybe mine alone.
bellymama's Avatar bellymama 01:49 PM 07-04-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgia View Post
oh.my.god.
wtf? the baby will associate pain with the word "no"? i have decided that these people are the scariest.: i kind of feel sick.
the_lissa's Avatar the_lissa 01:51 PM 07-04-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmh23 View Post
Scariest: Pearls
Second Scariest: Dobson
Third Scariest: Ezzo
Same for me.
elizawill's Avatar elizawill 05:38 PM 07-04-2007
[QUOTE=CaraboosMama;5552254 Ezzo would be quickly rejected by most reasonable people. [/QUOTE]

i think ezzo is widely accepted. not only does he have growing kids god's way, he also authors babywise...toddlerwise, etc. my husband and i took the "bible study" GKGW and we were appalled!! i had heard of it, but went into it not really knowing anything about it. we took the class because my husband was on staff at the church and we had too. i wasn't just offended by the spanking and physical descipline advocated, but they make you feel like a bad parent if you let teenagers call you by your first name, and a billion other crazy things. i didn't even know what to say about these dated videos. the ezzos have no humor and NO personality....and they don't teach anything about having a loving relationship with your children.....just how to control them through abuse. btw-we left that church after a year because it was AWFUL!
elizawill's Avatar elizawill 06:03 PM 07-04-2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by DebraBaker View Post
For me, "Train," has subtle negative connotations.

It could just be me.

You train dogs.

You train some plants to grow, "Here." and nowhere else.

Train has no notion of thinking for one's self.

Dedicate is more something that's addressing the parent's heart. If the one reading the verse (we're presuming a parent,) is having their own heart and perspective addressed (please do this rather than force that other person to do this,) it's more gentle, and more fair because it's a bit like the kid arguing that Jimmy over there doesn't (fill in the blank,) and the mother says, "I'm talking to you, not Jimmy." It's like the verse that says, "Children obey your parents." It doesn't say, "parents force your children to obey you," but rather says, "Parents do not provoke your children." Everyone gets instruction, but not to force the other party.

Dedicate a child in the way he should go, has a sense of gentle commitment.

Train has visions of whips and chairs.
I disagree. I think sickos like ezzo and pearl have give a negative assocoation to the word "train". just like "time-out" is a bad word now, but it just means a break....certainly not humiliation. to be trained in something shouldn't bring a visual to mind of a child being hurt, yk? i have been trained in my field.
leelee2's Avatar leelee2 09:58 PM 07-04-2007
Nothing gets my blood pressure to rise more than reading all about these horrible people. It makes me want to start a movement or something in the churches. I wonder what churches indorse these people and which don't? I'm a Christian but I haven't been able to find a church I'm comfortable with.
My vote would be a tie between the two I guess. They're both really horrible and I don't see how people can belileve this ****!: : :
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