Is some GD philosophy *too* gentle??? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 02:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mizelenius
I agree with you. I have tried everything I can think of thus far to get DD to stop yelling, name calling, spitting, etc.

Finally, today, I said SCREW THIS. I quoted Super Nanny.

DD was in the middle of a spitting frenzy, and I said, "Spitting is NOT acceptable. If you do it one more time you're going to the office."

She stopped RIGHT AWAY and didn't do it again today. And honestly, she looked relieved that I took charge.
Have you read Positive Discipline by Jane Nelso. Excluding the "Screw it" comment - your consequence would have fallen right in line with that books recommendations. FYI - this book is on the GD book list.

My point here is -- what is considered GD on this board runs a broad spectrum from CL to PD -- and the approaches are very different, but the concern and the intent the same.

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#62 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 03:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TripMom
Have you read Positive Discipline by Jane Nelso. Excluding the "Screw it" comment - your consequence would have fallen right in line with that books recommendations. FYI - this book is on the GD book list.

My point here is -- what is considered GD on this board runs a broad spectrum from CL to PD -- and the approaches are very different, but the concern and the intent the same.
No, I haven't-- I will have to check it out!

(FTR, I didn't say "screw this" out loud . . . ).

I have a general understanding of what CL is (and see it is a goal, though not one I am currently attaining). . . is CL not considered to be a form of PD?

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#63 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 03:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen
What I meant to say was that nobody's perfect and I hope you don't really intend to limit yourself to taking advice from someone who seems to be or claims to be if they do come along. We can all learn from each other even if we differ.
Thank you for that.

What I wrote was an exaggeration, of course. I certainly didn't mean to imply I'd ONLY take advice from the type of mama I described (because she's a fantasy) . . .I just mean that sometimes I feel I can worry/complain that things aren't working, and someone will come back and imply that there is ALWAYS a way to work things out and solve them. It's that implied goal of perfection (even though everyone agrees that it isn't actually possible) that wears me out. Sometimes I think there are just rough periods in life and it just sucks, and one has to find a way to get through them vs. believing one has the control to make it fabulous. Does that make sense?

But, I have come along way in believing this. I used to think I COULD solve things or at least prevent pretty much every problem. When I read Dr. Sears when DD was under a yr. I felt he implied discipline would be easy because we'd be attached . . .certain things wouldn't even be issues. When I had a 1 yr old (only) and saw parents doing things I swore I'd never do, I judged them. And then my baby grew up . . .and I realized that I didn't have the answers. When I looked down my nose at formula and then had a 2nd DD that refused to nurse most of the time (at 6 weeks with a lot of work, we finally succeeded), I learned my lesson. Had she not been like that, I STILL would have tended to judge mamas.

In other words, I "try" to always preface things as "This has been my experience, I have not walked in your shoes and never will." I am saying this has been a LONG hard lesson to learn-- to not judge (and I still stuggle with this). When I feel the judging tones come out on this board (from my perception; I don't know that people are truly judging), I get really frustrated and HOPE people don't have to learn their lessons the hard way like I did, but then again, I also wish they'd appreciate that they simply CANNOT know.

Sorry for going all James Joyce and getting my stream of consciousness groove on . . .it's just been a rough few weeks for me!

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#64 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 03:32 PM
 
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Quote:
When I feel the judging tones come out on this board (from my perception; I don't know that people are truly judging), I get really frustrated and HOPE people don't have to learn their lessons the hard way like I did, but then again, I also wish they'd appreciate that they simply CANNOT know.


I find it's really easy to give advice when you've got the emotional and physical distance! My biggest challenge is "in the moment"....it's such a challenge

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#65 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 04:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mizelenius
No, I haven't-- I will have to check it out!

(FTR, I didn't say "screw this" out loud . . . ).

I have a general understanding of what CL is (and see it is a goal, though not one I am currently attaining). . . is CL not considered to be a form of PD?
This board uses them term "Gentle Discipline" -- and I don't think that is defined by any one approach - but if you go by the suggested reading list in the Sticky -- it captures a range of approaches -- including CL and PD. If you talk to the CL people -- PD is NOT GD. If you talk to the PD people - CL is far too permissive to be D at all. Yet both approaches are on the suggested reading list here. I think the only thing they really have in common -- is that neither approach is mainstream. CL people may object to this next statement (as their definition of what is and is not authoritarian is a lot broader than others) - but IMHO neither approach is authoritarian -- both approaches are "Gentle".

And to answer your original question -- Yes - I think some GD approaches are too "Gentle". IMHO - I find CL -- too "gentle", or probably better described as "too permissive".

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#66 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 06:19 PM
 
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#67 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 06:23 PM
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#68 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 06:39 PM
 
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#69 of 322 Old 07-25-2006, 06:41 PM
 
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i am subscribing to this thread as i worry about being overly permissive and some days i think i just come off as being grumpy

i love my children so much and i do struggle with discipline and not having any role models around who dont use shame, punishing, shouting it is all too easy to be influenced by what you see and hear

so thanks for helping to renew my determination to be my childs ally and be on the same team as him, work with him not against him, to do things with no to him

and to remember at all times he ias a wonderful, amazing and good child and work from that basis, that if he isnt acting in a way that reflects how great he is, there must be an underlying reason or problem that i need to help him get to the bottom of

keep reminding myslef i am not rewarding him i am helping him to be the best he can be (plus we dont do rewards do we!)

thanks for helping me remember what i am trying to do
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#70 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama
I feel like there is a time and place to say, "no." ITA that there are lots of other/often better strategies, and I see lots of good suggestions here for those.

But sometimes it seems like there is this prohibition here on ever exerting authority, ever telling a child "no, that is not okay."

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So my question is... is this constant giving, following children's agendas at the expense of our own, not saying "no," never giving a parent-driven consequence to a behaviour... is that mandatory for GD?
I think what you are seeing is that many of the active posters on this board now lean towards noncoercive parenting.

Gentle Discipline seems to be a spectrum of ideas. Some would say that the far end of the spectrum (TCS for example) is "too gentle" for their family. But some strive for those ideals.

I think it just changes over time. A couple of years ago, when I first started reading at MDC, it seemed to me that the posting was more along the lines of "Positive Discipline" writers, like the Spirited Child book, and others like it, to give examples. I think the board has changed, but that doesn't mean that what Gentle Discipline means, has changed.

Like others have said, the problem I have run into with my own 4 year old, is the lack of reasoning ability, and lack of understanding for other's needs. Especially when there is a younger sibling involved, who has more immediate needs. I have seen an incredible ability to cooperate and understand, and then there are times when he is completely unable to work with me on mutually agreeable solutions. Those are my most difficult moments, and there sure do seem to be a lot of them these days. But then, I just have to forget all the nice theories from Alfie Kohn and anonymous people on the internet (as helpful and inspiring as they have been ) and be the Parent, and take charge.

Still don't agree with traditional timeouts, but surely there are times when a raging child cannot be allowed to hurt other family members, and need to be taken aside until they can control their bodies better.

I also don't agree with arbitary consequences imposed by the parent. But if the family needs to be somewhere, or one of them needs to pee, but a child refuses to leave--well, then insisting on leaving is not an arbitrary consequence, or a punishment. It is just a fact that leaving needs to happen, and the parent has to take the lead. It would be great if this could be worked out without the use of force (because to me that is a last resort type of thing) and that is where all the other GD tools come in (theoretically).
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#71 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 11:46 AM
 
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just want to say that consensual living has no age limits. consensual living is not a cookie cutter way of parenting. what is acceptable/agreeable for one family is not for another. in my house, we don't really care if our walls get messy with crayon or whatever. we dont' encourage it, but it's not a big hot-button issue for us. in another family it might be different. our 3yo tries my patience every day, and of course i make mistakes and make bad decisions but my frame of mind is always from a consensual living perspective. i think that makes a difference.

i've been accused by others of being too permissive, and i just don't give a hoot anymore what other people say about my parenting. my children are happy, spirited little souls. i have nobody to answer to except for them. my responsibility is to them, not to anybody else. if others don't like it, they can bite my arse.

is consensual living more difficult with an older child? hm...i suppose it depends on how you look at it. i think *life* is more difficult with an older child than with an infant, new toddler. LOL and i think that consensual living helps to IMPROVE that life, moreso than other methods of "discipline", etc.

uhoh, my little dude needs me. be back later.
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#72 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 01:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by slightly crunchy
But if the family needs to be somewhere, or one of them needs to pee, but a child refuses to leave--well, then insisting on leaving is not an arbitrary consequence, or a punishment. It is just a fact that leaving needs to happen, and the parent has to take the lead.
Curious. How would the CL parent handle this?

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#73 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 01:45 PM
 
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Well, it's important to remember that intent goes a long way. Sometimes similar actions or words can be very different in different contexts and with different intentions...

I pretty much always assume that DS is "on my team" and that we face things together. Using this approach has been largely very effective.

In the case above, I explain to DS that we have a parameter. I know that he wants to stay at the park, but we have a deadline, and could he help me get everything done. "Everything" includes what he wants to accomplish too. If I were to presume that he will melt down and that I have to "set a limit" then it will happen. So I say that we will be at the park until (whatever tangible marker I can use), and after we will accomplish X. Alternately, I ask him what last thing he wants to get in before we go do X. Trusting that the child can handle and understand reasons why we do things is critical. It conveys that I trust his ability to cooperate, and doesn't undermine his problem-solving ability.

Approaching it with an idea that I'm gonna have to "take charge" just breeds resentment and shuts down his expression, self esteem (since it conveys that I don't trust him), and sets us up on opposing sides of the issue.

These subtle differences in intention make a huge difference.

I'll post this and then add an example later...


ETA:

Examples:

1. A while ago (during winter) my mother came over to go out with us. She tends to dig in her heels about things, and refused to leave unless DS wore a hat. He refused.

To me, the thing to accomplish is keeping warm. To my mother the means to keep warm had to be a hat. Who cares? If DS prefers another way to keep warm, it's his body. But mom had really set a limit - hat or no go.

Well, of course DS melted down. And she's my mother and never listens to me. So this situation just escalated and escalated. DS was inconsolable. I finally grabbed him away, told my mother to back down, and went in another room. DS and I talked about how he felt about Mimi forcing that hat on his head. He was livid and insulted and the whole bit. I apologized for her (only because she is incapable of it) and told DS that she is worried about him being too cold and wants to keep him warm. I asked if he liked other warm things, and he suggested the blanket.

I told him it was a great idea, and asked if he was ready to go out and tell Mimi that we found a great solution. He was, and was very proud of it.


2. There are times I reschedule. I don't "give in" or let DS dictate what I do. But I certainly take his feelings into consideration when I plan - and revise plans if they aren't working.

Last night I was determined to go buy clothes hangers. I'm sick of living in bins from moving and I want my closet organized, damnit! So, well, several things snowballed to just frustrate the crap out of DS last night, until he was uncharacteristically grumpy. (Hmm, strange it was also mostly from my mother... I mean, he gets grumpy sometimes, but I could tell this was extraordinary. He was happy in the car going to the store and I thought we were past the upset, but when it was time to go in he refused. He usually likes to go in stores, but not then. As I asked him why he just melted down more and more. So I probed a little, and it came out that he was really angry at feeling tricked by my mother telling him she would walk the dogs with him and then just leaving instead. He was too upset about it to cope with anything.

I didn't get the hangers (and I was right there!!!! ), and instead took him to the park so he could get his frustration out. As soon as we got home, he sought out my mother and explained that he was angry at her about it. If I had pushed through him, he wouldn't have had an opportunity to get in touch with why he was so upset, and certainly not to process it.

As it turns out, he didn't care that she didn't apologize - he was happier as soon as he told her.

Oh, and I got the hangers this morning with a happy DS!! Organizing closet as soon as I can pry myself away from MDC...



Sorry for the novel...
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#74 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 01:53 PM
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Curious. How would the CL parent handle this?
Again, consensual living doesn't mean that every single interaction with your child every single moment of every single day is going to be perfect. That is a level of perfection that I think is a convenient arguement for people who are not agreeable with consensual living.

If I have to pee, I am peeing. Consensual living means ALL parties consent when at all possible. It means that mutually agreeable solutions are always the goal, but it doesn't mean they are always neccessarily the outcome. If I have to pee, it is not agreeable to me to get a UTI or to piss myself, so in that instance, if my child was really not wanting me to pee, my needs would have to trump her immediate wants for the moment. I don't look at my child though, as someone who is out to foil my attempts at taking care of my bodily functions. I don't approach situations with that dynamic, like she is "out to make my life harder" or something. I see it as she probably doesn't understand the urgency of me having to pee and doesn't truly get that I have to go...now.... I would attempt to make the fact that I have to pee more agreeable by either playful parenting (laughing and doing the pee dance) or by asking for her help (flushing the toilet or getting me the tp or whatever) , but I don't think any parent has said "yes, I would piss myself because my child didn't want me to pee". That is somewhat ridiculous.

In terms of leaving some place, we have never encountered that, though I am sure we will in the future. I am more than willing to stay longer somewhere, and more than willing to work with my child if it is important to her. We don't have a rigid schedule.

I think one of the fundamental differences with people who practice consensual living and people who don't, is that the ones who don't truly feel as though they are benevolent rulers of their children. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I seriously mean most people I have encountered who reject consensual living truly believe that while they love their children, let them have some choices, and are gentle in their discipline, everyone knows "who's boss" so to speak...and it is the parent. If I had to pee and my husband wanted to tell me something, I would say "honey, have to peeeee nowwwwwwww" and he would get it and I would pee. My daughter isn't yet at that level of understanding so it takes a bit more working with her, but that's the point, I work with her -- not against her.
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#75 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 01:56 PM
 
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ITA, CC

wow. an entire sentence in just acronyms. LOL!

anyway...it's a mindset, it's a framework, it's an attitude. it's not a recipe or a manual.

and i just wanted to add...how can we possibly expect a child who is still in diapers to understand that mommy can't just pee in her pants? the child does, so why not mommy?
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#76 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:01 PM
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Exactly, and furthermore, people who practice CL approach situations in the spirit of their being an actual reason the child doesn't want you to pee. Do they want to play more, do they think you're leaving for good, do they want to come with you, do they want to help, do they think they won't get to play when you come back, do they not understand? People on the authoritative side seem to feel that the child is just being *bratty* or *selfish*. It is a mindset.
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#77 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy

I think one of the fundamental differences with people who practice consensual living and people who don't, is that the ones who don't truly feel as though they are benevolent rulers of their children. I don't mean that in a snarky way, I seriously mean most people I have encountered who reject consensual living truly believe that while they love their children, let them have some choices, and are gentle in their discipline, everyone knows "who's boss" so to speak...and it is the parent.
You hit a nail on the head. It's interesting to see different variations, but one can always trace the core of believes to either:

1) I am (the parent) in charge (countless variations ranging from "I'll beat your butt into submission" [not here of course] to "I'll gently guide you and teach you and be all I can be. But when push comes to shove we are going to do it *my* way")

or

2) We are the team (again, variations on temperament, interactions, etc. )
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#78 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:09 PM
 
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I think you've gotten a lot of great feedback so far, and I also wanted to say I really appreciated shaggydaddy's posts. I wanted to say I feel like there is a middle ground between martyr and authoritarian in the examples you gave. My son is almost 3 so we have had the kind of struggles you describe over leaving a park or getting dressed. What has worked for us with leaving the park is to have some kind of transition. Sometimes I'll tell him "I'm going to sing the ABCs and then we're going to leave" or "three more slides down the slide and then we'll leave" or something like that. I don't do the same thing every time. This works really well with my son because it gives him time to adjust. I've heard it doesn't work that well with every kid so I think it's just a matter of figuring out what works for your kid. But if you think about it from their point of view, it's hard to deal with the big bossy boss in your life just dictating that you have to stop the fun thing you're doing and fall in line to leave.

As for the getting dressed struggle -- when my son is resisting this (putting shoes on is frequently a hassle) I usually do something silly like try to put his clothes/shoes on myself. "You don't want to wear these shoes? Can I wear them? Oh no, they don't fit! Can teddy wear them? Oh dear, they don't fit teddy either." By then DS is almost always laughing and grabbing his shoes away from me so they can go on his own feet. You would think this strategy wouldn't work over and over but it still does. Have you read the book Playful Parenting? That book is my favorite parenting book ever. It has been an incredible resource for me in how to turn a situation from stressful defiance/frustration into good-natured compliance.

So to sum it up...I don't believe in being a martyr at all...but I very much believe in GD, and that it is worth it to figure out strategies that enlist DS' cooperation, instead of just imposing my authority on him.
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#79 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Attila the Honey
I think "too gentle" is like "too compassionate". No such thing. :

But, having said that, I never equated "gentle discipline" with never saying "no". I do equate it with being respectful, compassionate, understanding, and non-coercive or manipulating, but not with never saying, "no".

I respect my daughter's feelings and I don't assert my dominance just because, but sometimes the answer is "no". I try to remember that adage, "Make your 'no's as kind as your 'yes'es" (or however that goes), but I still use "no".

But really, that's true for dealing with everyone. I have a kind and 'gentle' relationship with my dh and we respect each other and talk things out, try to work as a team, but sometimes we make each other unhappy. I see it as similar with dd. We ARE a team, and we have to do what's best for the team, and if it's time to leave the park because it's late and we are tired and everyone is hungry then, no, we don't sit and suffer because one member of the team is upset that we have to leave.

I think it's a common misconception that gd = never letting the child be upset in any way. that's not very practical. To me, the difference between a gd parent and a non-gd parent might be, for example, that the gd parent understands and 'allows' their child to cry and scream when it's time to leave, maybe with some hugs and reassurances if that helps; whereas a non-gd parent would be more likely to coerce/manipulate ("Stop crying and I will give you some candy.") or punish ("Stop crying or I will give you something to cry about.").

It's not that gd = letting the kid dictate how long you stay, it's how you deal with the issue of needing to leave.

Hope that made sense.


And honestly, lately with 2 small children it is REALLY hard to leave a place I have had to physically restrain dd by holding her or giving her hugs because she just never wants to leave.What I mean is-for example: kids have been playing at IKEA, playing, for awhile. Dd starts walking off in one direction, ds starts RUNNING FAST repeatedly in another. What am I to do? In my mind, they have hit their attention threshhold in a crowded place and as a respectful parent I need to take them home. But dd doesn't want to go. I feel, because she is overstimulated. So, see I know this about her and I feel it is my job as a loving attentive parent to leave. Also because it is becoming unsafe and they are not following rules I try to implement about"staying together to be safe". So I pick up dd and she kicks, screams, etc. But I know from her temperment that she is partly acting this way because she is overstimulated and currently incapable of calming herself.

So in this instance, I decide it is time to go. Dd does not like it, but she will understand later. I try to be as loving as possible, and explain to her why, but she still doesn't like it.
Now this doesn't happen alot. there are lots of times I will stay longer, I will let them decide. But I think for an almost 4 year old, she is a bit ready to understand that the world doesn't always wait on her.Ok, I am starting to ramble- but I wanted to share. I think being GD oriented is about taking into acount alot of different factors about your specific child, situation, age, etc and then coming up with an appropriate response to behaviors. My kids don't always get their way, but neither do I . I compromise for them as well.

Due with number 5 in August. We do all that crunchy stuff.
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#80 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:23 PM
 
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Whoa! There were lots of posts between my posting and editing!!


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#81 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Curious. How would the CL parent handle this?
I don't choose to label myself CL, but I do admire alot of what the label stands for and strive towards the goals alot. But I'd like to answer.

Tripmom- you have triplets, right? I have no experience with that, but I'd guess at certain ages, 2 and 3 come to mind, that if all three were refusing at the same time, picking up and leaving, empathizing, validating, and reassuring something they enjoy will come next too might be the least stressful route. I don't know?
Several things helps leaving to be consensual here. One is if I know ahead of time there is a reason I will want to leave in a certain amount of time I can tell them that. 'Hey guys we haven't eaten dinner yet. Everyone wants to go to the schoolyard, so lets go for an hour and then come home so I can make dinner.' or 'Its gonna be dark in an hour and the park closes when it is dark, so we can stay for an hour and then go home.' And then just reminding them when it is time to go why we are leaving.
Another is going towards something else thay want, probably not as much as the park, but they have accepted that. Sometimes with ds it is as simple as offering a piggyback to the car. Or reminding him he wanted juice at the store and we've yet to make that trip. Or reminding them we need to go eat so we don't start feeling icky and grumpy.
And with the having to pee thing, I do expect my children to understand that, and many times they have. Recently we were at the pool (walking distance from our house) and I had to go to the bathroom. Dp and dd stayed and ds wanted to walk home with me. He wanted to carry the keys, so he did (we had done this the day before SMOOTHLY ). When we got to the door he wanted to unlock the door. He asked which key it was and I showed him. He started to go back through all the keys and ask is it this one, this one. So I showed him again which one and reminded him how bad I had to go pee. Well he wanted to play with the keys. Keys are fun. I took the keys from him and unlocked the door. He was quite upset. I apologized for taking the keys and explained to him that I had to go so bad it hurt and I didn't want to wait any longer. I think it is rude to take something from someone's hands like this, so I apologized. He accepted my apology and asked if I felt better. Afterwards I thought I could have assured him he could play with the keys for as long as he wanted after I went and it may have been enough for him to let go of what he wanted to do at that moment and see what I needed to do at that moment! It's not as if I think an occaisional instance of putting my needs before his is going to have some long lasting devestating effect on my son or our relationship. It's not as if I was beating myself up for taking the keys and being less than consensual. What it is like is I realized afterwards one small sentence may have made the difference for it to be consensual. My recognizing his want may have helped him recognize my need. All that aside it was said and done and I think recognizing his feelings of upset and being understanding did help him understand were I was coming from.

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#82 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:41 PM
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Whoa! There were lots of posts between my posting and editing!!


CC, will you marry me?
Sure, but I am already married so we will have to move to like, Utah or something.
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#83 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:49 PM
 
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Me too.

Does Utah have gay polygamy? The next hot-button issue, I can tell...
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#84 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 02:53 PM
 
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I guess my point is that gentle discipline works for ANY age person the practicality is a big draw. No matter if they are too small to be called a "person" by the "mainstream" yet. Why change your parenting philosophy with each new benchmark? You GD your spouse, your waiter, your boss, your employees, your neighbor, etc etc. Try using positive phraising to negotiate with an adult some time... it works GREAT.

A for-instance we all can probably relate to: You can't spank a newborn, you can't spank a 15 year old, why spank in-between?

Same can be said for time out, yelling, etc etc?

I believe the same for EC (maybe I wouldn't if it was harder with Jet ), "You must poop in your diaper... oh wait now you are 3, new rules!"

Every time you have to re-establish a relationship with someone it is very difficult.

I am luckey enough to have had the wonderful opportunity to have kids of all ages and dispositions live with us for months, weeks, days, and just hours. The one constant is that they know that they will be given respect and they will be allowed/encouraged to have a lot of fun within the rules. They love how lax the rules are, and they love that they have input into the rules. They trust us to never do anything arbitrary.

I see no problem with teaching children that if they ask, compromise, bargain, work, and trade the right way they will get pretty much anything they want. It is true in my life and it has been for a long time (since I left my parent's authority).

People (adult or child) will almost always choose the path of least resistance, the easiest way to get their way. Sometimes the easiest way to get our way is to compromise in our desires, sometimes it is to trade, most of the time (especially for a child) it is to ask the right way.

You haven't cryed till you have seen a 12 month old ask if he could please use the computer next if he waits patiently (with no prompting).

The key is communication in any relationship, especially a parenting one.
I would love to know what books your reading/have read on gd. I have a 12 year old and am dealing with issues that didn't come up when she was younger...and am having trouble dealing with it...suggestions?? thanks! love your posts!
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#85 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 03:28 PM
 
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Thanks for the reponse to my previous post. Here is what I concluded - at least the people that responded (whether they consider themselves CL or not) -- handle the situation I inquired about (mom has to use the bathroom and kid doesn't want to go) -- the same way I would have. And I would consider myself a postive discipline parent.

In fact - all the examples posed by these PPs having to do with "transitions" - i.e. leaving the park, leaving the house, etc -- all your suggestions on how to handle them are the same way I would have handled them as a PD mom. Exaclty.

Here is the circumstance I've seen posed here many times before - that for me defines the KEY DIFFERENCE between CL and PD -- "If DS does not want leave the park - we don't leave - period - until he wants too" or "If DD does not want to get in his carseat - we don't go until DD wants too". That sort of idea that after you've used the techniques you all discussed above - playful parenting, distraction, etc. (which by the way CL does not have a corner on the market for) -- is DC still says no - we do what DC wants and DC is not forced to leave the park, or get in the carseat, etc. In other words its what DC wants that trumps - always and regardless. I'll note that none of the PPs suggested that in the face of unrelenting resistence despite all parental efforts - DC still won't do X - we go along with DC - so maybe you all don't take it to that exteme - but I have definitely seen that extreme discussed and advocated here.

Otherwise - what you are all saying to me -- sounds a lot like PD?

TripMom . . . . . loving mom : to DS (7) and BBG (4.5)
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#86 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 03:35 PM
 
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I don't choose to label myself CL, but I do admire alot of what the label stands for and strive towards the goals alot. But I'd like to answer.

Tripmom- you have triplets, right? I have no experience with that, but I'd guess at certain ages, 2 and 3 come to mind, that if all three were refusing at the same time, picking up and leaving, empathizing, validating, and reassuring something they enjoy will come next too might be the least stressful route. I don't know?
Several things helps leaving to be consensual here. One is if I know ahead of time there is a reason I will want to leave in a certain amount of time I can tell them that. 'Hey guys we haven't eaten dinner yet. Everyone wants to go to the schoolyard, so lets go for an hour and then come home so I can make dinner.' or 'Its gonna be dark in an hour and the park closes when it is dark, so we can stay for an hour and then go home.' And then just reminding them when it is time to go why we are leaving.
Another is going towards something else thay want, probably not as much as the park, but they have accepted that. Sometimes with ds it is as simple as offering a piggyback to the car. Or reminding him he wanted juice at the store and we've yet to make that trip. Or reminding them we need to go eat so we don't start feeling icky and grumpy.
And with the having to pee thing, I do expect my children to understand that, and many times they have. Recently we were at the pool (walking distance from our house) and I had to go to the bathroom. Dp and dd stayed and ds wanted to walk home with me. He wanted to carry the keys, so he did (we had done this the day before SMOOTHLY ). When we got to the door he wanted to unlock the door. He asked which key it was and I showed him. He started to go back through all the keys and ask is it this one, this one. So I showed him again which one and reminded him how bad I had to go pee. Well he wanted to play with the keys. Keys are fun. I took the keys from him and unlocked the door. He was quite upset. I apologized for taking the keys and explained to him that I had to go so bad it hurt and I didn't want to wait any longer. I think it is rude to take something from someone's hands like this, so I apologized. He accepted my apology and asked if I felt better. Afterwards I thought I could have assured him he could play with the keys for as long as he wanted after I went and it may have been enough for him to let go of what he wanted to do at that moment and see what I needed to do at that moment! It's not as if I think an occaisional instance of putting my needs before his is going to have some long lasting devestating effect on my son or our relationship. It's not as if I was beating myself up for taking the keys and being less than consensual. What it is like is I realized afterwards one small sentence may have made the difference for it to be consensual. My recognizing his want may have helped him recognize my need. All that aside it was said and done and I think recognizing his feelings of upset and being understanding did help him understand were I was coming from.
Thanks for your post. You see -- I'd call your parenting PD? If you were to use these examples and then told me - if after your attemps at explanation, compromise, playful parenting, etc. don't work -- and DC still want to remain at park after dark or not let you go home ot cook dinner or something - and you went with their wishes - that is what i'd call "CL". The idea that at the end of the interaction - DC is never required to so anything they are objecting too.

Otherwise - your entire post comports exactly with my style of parenting - and I consider myself sort of a devotee of Jane Nelson's PD approach to parenting.

TripMom . . . . . loving mom : to DS (7) and BBG (4.5)
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#87 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 04:35 PM
 
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Sure, but I am already married so we will have to move to like, Utah or something.
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Does Utah have gay polygamy?
You know as far as I know if you can stay away from that urge to put it on paper you should be able to keep it legal anywhere

Oh and btw I always look forward to reading both of your posts, they're encouraging and inspiring (and well written too)

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#88 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 04:37 PM
 
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Otherwise - your entire post comports exactly with my style of parenting - and I consider myself sort of a devotee of Jane Nelson's PD approach to parenting.
I've been waiting for my reservation on this book to come in at the library, it sounds like a good book

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#89 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 05:40 PM
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Oh and btw I always look forward to reading both of your posts, they're encouraging and inspiring (and well written too
awww....we are getting all kinds of shout outs today aren't we Aira!

Bi polygamists who practice CL unite!

Thank you for your kind compliment missrubyandken, it does mean a lot to me that you feel that way
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#90 of 322 Old 07-26-2006, 05:42 PM
 
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if after your attemps at explanation, compromise, playful parenting, etc. don't work -- and DC still want to remain at park after dark or not let you go home ot cook dinner or something - and you went with their wishes - that is what i'd call "CL". The idea that at the end of the interaction - DC is never required to so anything they are objecting too.
i haven't personally seen anybody explaining CL like this on MDC, but I suppose that there are those who practice it that way all the time. Nevertheless, CL is not monolithic - there are as many permutations of it as there are families who practice it. i must admit that there have been days when i really had nothing to do and i did follow every one of my son's whims. not since i had #2 (because now i have to consider her needs too), but i remember those days well. they were pretty fun.

for me, CL is not about having no boundaries. it's not about doing whatever your kid wants. in fact, i think it's very much about boundaries in some ways. i have my own personal boundaries, as do my children and my husband. i respect ALL of them. and by respecting them and modeling that, i am showing my children how to effectively navigate interactions with others who also have boundaries. if i were a parent who used a certain amount of coercion, i would be showing my children that there are rules that they have to follow rather than that everbody they interact with has personal boundaries. i can't explain it, clearly LOL...ack.

instead of teaching them that MY rules and MY boundaries are the only ones to respect, i am trying to show them that we ALL have personal boundaries that matter just as much as anybody else's. my kids will of course need to learn how to navigate a world in which they don't get what they want all the time. but i personally feel that the best way to prepare them for that is to model how we can all benefit from compromising, even when it doesn't suit our fancy.

my children are equals to me and my husband. just because we were born first doesn't give us more rights. of course we have more experience, but that should make us MORE able to compromise, imo, not LESS so. and i guess i wonder how can we expect our kids to understand that they can't always have anything they want (a common "issue" ppl often have with CL) unless we model that ourselves? by US not always getting exactly what we want? life is about compromise, and i think parents should be willing to do it too.

god i hope this post makes sense.
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