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#31 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom
But WHY?

How is crying alone gaining more life skills than crying while your parent hugs you and whispers soothing things to you (provided that's the sort of comforting the child desires)?

Why should ANYone have to deal with frustration by themselves (if they don't want to)?

Would it be appropriate to tell the moms who post their frustrations on the GD board that we're not going to empathize with them, but rather they need to learn to deal with it themselves? I think that would be seen as terribly unkind by anyone reading here.

I just don't think we build this trustful, nurturing, attached relationships with our babies to then move toward, "OK, you're old enough to cope on your own now." And to me, a kid who is frustrated to the point where they are crying and seeking comfort is telling me that he isn't old enough or ready to self-soothe.

I think "self-soothing" is highly, highly overrated.

To me, from my perspective, it all depends on the child. It depends on the actual situation, what upset the child, how upset the child is and the temperment of that particular child. Are they easily upset and rage over anything? Or are they rarely upset and this is an unusual event? How old is the child and is there any reason to think that the child has an intent to manipulate with the tears?

I think you can empathize with a person, whether an adult or a child, without being drawn into their emotional state in a codependent way. Again, this is just my opinion, my perspective as someone who has had to untangle the codependency issues of my family of origin.

This position would not appeal to everyone here, and I wouldn't expect it to. This is my belief and my approach, and it isn't clear cut and easy to follow. There are just too many variables that I would take into consideration before determining which course of action I believed to be appropriate with which child in what situation.

It is my belief, mistaken or not, that you can express anger without relinquishing love, and that for women in particular, this is a very necessary element in relationships. If I am angry with one of my children-which isn't very often, I'm a pretty laid back person and my kids are really great-I express it. I believe that it's important to realize that anger and love coexist simultaneously, and I hope that what my children are learning is that their partners love them (and they love their partners), even when they are angry.

There is a difference between healthy expression of all the emotions of all of the parties in a situation and emotional abuse.

Yes I have put my children in time out when I was angry. I absolutely do not regret it. It gave me time to regroup and reevaluate. At times, I was the one who apologized. I'm human. At other times, careful evaluation dissipated the angry feelings, but my conclusions were the same.

Like I said, I don't have the CL perspective on life. I am the adult and my children are the children, and in our family we have different roles; our roles are always changing as my children mature however. They are not static roles.

But that doesn't keep me from admiring the families who practice CL. I admire the love, philosophy and commitment of the approach, although I do not agree with all of it personally.

I don't believe in emotional or physical abuse. I realize however, that some of you have opinions about what constitutes emotional abuse that are different from mine. I do listen to those differing opinions, and reevaluate, and it causes me to think. I think that's a good thing.
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#32 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 12:23 PM
 
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My child has time outs...he cries...and I am not at bad mother. :

I do agree that some comforting and explaining were warranted...but I think you can still be gentle and gently use time outs.
I think I see where you were going with this one, and I agree with you. Granted, DS is far to young for time-outs, when he is (much) older we will probably use them.... the only difference between ours and the mothers in the OP is that I won't leave the room, DS will be able to see me and know that I'm there... plus, isn't 2 minutes a really long time to a child??? And when time out is over, aren;t you supposed to explain why the child recieved a time and what can happen next time to make sure that type of behaviour does not happen again?
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#33 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 12:25 PM
 
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I can't imagine how anyone right at 24 months old could even understand why they are being punished, even if you say "because you took the toy," I don't think they get it. Especially because they only take the toy to mimick the other child, not out of greed, in the first place (at that age).

And it's so uncomfortable to have to watch that sort of stuff, like one of the pp mentioned. Just unbearably tense for everyone else in the room, especially the other children.

I actually stopped having playdates with this one kid - sweet kid but the mom would hit him with a stick when he was "bad" (spare the rod, yk?), and it was just unbearable for Benji to see that. The little boy was upset, I was traumatized by it, Benji was traumatized. So it just wasn't worth it to be around that. Especially when you start feeling guilty, like "If we weren't having the playdate right now, this baby wouldn't have gotten in trouble and wouldn't be punished, so it's all my fault he's being punished!" That's how I started to think, so I had to stop being around that lady.

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#34 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 12:28 PM
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Well, delacroix, I do appreciate that you were respectful and calm in your posts, that is a rare quality around here at times...I'm guilty myself of getting a bit um *passionate*

I do disagree though. I think any time anyone needs comforting, if we are able to comfort, we should. That means children, animals, relative, strangers. It is my strongly held belief that children need us the most when they are acting their *worst* (and by worst I mean undesirable to us). Forced isolation has never seemed to make a situation better in my experience -- from babies left to cry it out alone, to toddlers forced into time out against their will, to prisoners in solitary confinement. It only seems to produce a more resentful, angry, hurt person who does not learn anything but that they should probably get better at stifling their emotions, then inflicting the results of their stifled emotions on others, or on themselves in the form of self destructive behaviors.

Just my $. 02
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#35 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 12:30 PM
 
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last christmas my aunt was having a christmas party and my cousin's 2 kids 5 and 6 were getting rowdy, and my cousin made them sit on there knees facing a cabinet with there heads resting on the cabinet for like 15 minutes in front of everyone !!!: , before i could say anything my mom said "um dont u think that is a long time for them to sit like that and embarassing"
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#36 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 01:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Delacroix
To me, from my perspective, it all depends on the child. It depends on the actual situation, what upset the child, how upset the child is and the temperment of that particular child. Are they easily upset and rage over anything? Or are they rarely upset and this is an unusual event? How old is the child and is there any reason to think that the child has an intent to manipulate with the tears?
(Emphasis mine.)

Here is where we have a fundamental difference in our views on children. I believe in the inherent goodness of children, not in some inherent desire to manipulate us. My child cries because she is sad or angry or frustrated or overwhelmed. NOT because she wants to manipulate me. The fact that some people decide to ignore their child's tears because they've decided the child is only doing it to manipulate them makes me feel angry.
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#37 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy
Well, delacroix, I do appreciate that you were respectful and calm in your posts, that is a rare quality around here at times...I'm guilty myself of getting a bit um *passionate*

I do disagree though. I think any time anyone needs comforting, if we are able to comfort, we should. That means children, animals, relative, strangers.

Thank you Captain Crunchy, I appreciate the acknowledgement. I'm not into debate. Debating in this context implies that I am right and the other person is wrong. I see the paradox in this, because I know we all choose the approach that we believe to be 'right'. I still don't like to approach things as though I am right and the other person is wrong. Ego investment in these things doesn't work for me; it leaves so little room for growth. I just like to talk. I enjoy the discussions.

I agree with you regarding comforting when a person or animal needs comfort. Where we seem to go in different directions is the 'need' part. Sometimes a person wants comforting, but needs something else. Believe me, I know. I've had too many people around me who are bottomless pits for comfort. Psychic vampires who can never get enough. Whether that is the result of not learning to self-soothe, at least in part, I can't say. I just know that these types of persons do exist and that nothing I do really seems to comfort them. It's a frustrating dynamic that I avoid, once I begin to feel that this is where the individual is coming from.

We have all tried to comfort a child who will not be comforted. I just don't do that anymore. Sometimes comfort is a way to buffer oneself against the reality of one's choices. I don't do that either.

In the end all I have to go on is my own judgement. I wish I had more, but ultimately that's all that any of us has. I try to judge as carefully as I can, on the fly, as the situations arise.

Plummeting;
I think I understand where you are coming from, and I sense a great deal of passion behind your words. That is, IMO, a wonderful thing. I appreciate your deep love for humanity. It's a refreshing thing to behold in times like these when so many people are cynical and jaded.

Where you and I part ways in terms of beliefs is in judging that manipulation is inherently bad. I don't know exactly how to put this...please bear with me. If my child is manipulating, I don't label her as 'bad' as a result of it. All people, not just children, want what they want, and will try to find ways to get it. A clever child's attempt to manipulate to get her desired outcome is not necessarily a 'bad' thing, IMO. It's just intelligence exploring it's options, or so I see it.

I try not to judge my children when I don't approve of their behaviors, while maintaining the boundaries that I've set. Human beings are prone to manipulation to get their end results. I do not see children as being exempt from this proclivity. If it works, they will add it to their bag of 'tools'. If it doesn't, they will discard it, or so I believe.

I realize that I may make a mistake in judgement and in so doing, I may inadvertently hurt one of my children. I take this possibility very seriously while recognizing that I am human and I will inevitably make mistakes in parenting.

These types of wounds are, IMO, a part of life. Who has not been inadvertently hurt by a partner, or friend, or family member? This is a part of life that we all have to employ our inner as well as outer resources to deal with. I hope that my choices have empowered by children to access both types of resources in times of hurt.

I know that I have been there for them with all of my heart and soul, and that my children and I are powerfully bonded with a love that is mutually respectful, even though my role is not the same as theirs in their younger years. I hope that they will forgive me my mistakes, as I forgive my mother for her mistakes. I hope that, as adults, they will realize that I am not all powerful and all knowing, just a human being who did her very best to be the best mother that I could be.

I don't see myself as a perfect mother, one who has all the answers. I've just tried to do my best to come to the best conclusions that I could. All of us make mistakes, all of us look back on things that we would do differently. To me, it's important to be a good enough mother, without holding myself to a standard of perfection that no one can attain.

Without question, I know that I've done my best and that my best is only human. In the end I believe that has to be enough.
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#38 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 02:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Delacroix
To me, it's important to be a good enough mother, without holding myself to a standard of perfection that no one can attain.

Without question, I know that I've done my best and that my best is only human. In the end I believe that has to be enough.
ITA!
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#39 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 02:41 PM
 
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I think you can empathize with a person, whether an adult or a child, without being drawn into their emotional state in a codependent way.
Well, of course. But, we're talking about withholding comfort to small children so that they learn to "self-soothe," not setting up healthy boundaries vs. getting sucked into dysfunction.

Based on your comments in this thread, I think you may be injecting some other issues into offering comfort to children in such a way that they feel secure, loved, and guided to comfort themselves and others.

I can't for the life of me understand how withholding comfort is going to achieve those same ends.

I think the converse is true, that people who are not comforted nor have had those emotional needs met, are much more likely to develop that bottomless pit of need. When a need is met, it goes away. When a need is unmet it merely resurfaces in new and interesting ways.

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Originally Posted by Delacroix
It is my belief, mistaken or not, that you can express anger without relinquishing love, and that for women in particular, this is a very necessary element in relationships. If I am angry with one of my children-which isn't very often, I'm a pretty laid back person and my kids are really great-I express it. I believe that it's important to realize that anger and love coexist simultaneously, and I hope that what my children are learning is that their partners love them (and they love their partners), even when they are angry.
I agree, and that's why I think time-out sends such a confusing message conflating anger and withdrawal of love. When we send people away when we are angry with them, are they more likely to feel loved or unloved? I would contend that people who are sent away, would eventually become very fearful of others becoming angry with them.
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#40 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 03:31 PM
 
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my toddler has been hitting her sister alot lately and i find myself giving her a time out for about a minute explaining to her why it is not ok to hit and then after her timeout i explain it again, i find myself trying different things to make this stop...
Not at all to diminish the sibling rivalry aspect to this (how old is the sister?), but my toddler is also a hitter and also throws heavy items with glee, loves to kick maniacally too. I know he would NEVER understand if I made him go away from us- he doesn't even get why his sister is angry when he hurts her. So I just repeat various mantras: "throw the sand away from people." "That's for (insert true use), not throwing, here's a ball you can throw." With hitting - well, we made sure he has several drums and tambourines (and "you can hit your drum" "you can hit the couch" "you can hit the ball", we clap vigorous rhythms, or "let's play pattycake" - and he can slap my palms as hard as he wants).

One of these things usually works. Even if he's hitting from anger sometimes he still just wants to hit, and the diversion both diffuses his emotional upset and serves his physical need. Other times I snuggle up to him, empathize and try to help him through the angry feelings. I also regularly show him "gentle gentle" and ask him if he wants to repeat that gentle stroke on the person's body where he just hurt them. Usually the injured party is amenable, and ds is also amenable to this and gets very tender with the person, which helps them forgive him! I also try to spend separate special time with each of my kids, even for an hour or two, whenever i can.

hope that helps.
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#41 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 06:04 PM
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Well, of course. But, we're talking about withholding comfort to small children so that they learn to "self-soothe," not setting up healthy boundaries vs. getting sucked into dysfunction.

Based on your comments in this thread, I think you may be injecting some other issues into offering comfort to children in such a way that they feel secure, loved, and guided to comfort themselves and others.

I can't for the life of me understand how withholding comfort is going to achieve those same ends.

I think the converse is true, that people who are not comforted nor have had those emotional needs met, are much more likely to develop that bottomless pit of need. When a need is met, it goes away. When a need is unmet it merely resurfaces in new and interesting ways.


I agree, and that's why I think time-out sends such a confusing message conflating anger and withdrawal of love. When we send people away when we are angry with them, are they more likely to feel loved or unloved? I would contend that people who are sent away, would eventually become very fearful of others becoming angry with them.
I think I understand your point of view, and I agree with you that an unmet need will resurface in other ways. But I don't always view a child as wanting comfort because they are upset. To me, it often seems like the MOTHER needs the comfort. When comfort is a need, I agree that it should be met and cannot think of an instance where not meeting it is okay. It's just that I don't think that a child's attempts to engage a mother always stem from that need for comfort.

It's not my intent to dissuade you. I'm just of the opinion that it's not terribly difficult for a mother to be 'sucked into' dysfunctional dynamics with a child, and that the process of establishing healthy boundaries begins in childhood.

I wouldn't characterize time out as 'sending people away' when we are angry with them; I view time out as a healthy break that can sometimes allow both parties to emotionally regroup and reorganize. Again...it's all dependent upon the particulars of each situation, the age of the child, the degree of upset of the child, and so forth and so on. If anger always meant a separation, perhaps a child would become fearful of anger. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a time and place for separation.

Separation with an infant or a toddler isn't good, IMO. A secure relationship has to be established before you go about the process of individuation. Once our children were at a point where separation seemed appropriate to us at times, there was already a strong foundation between us as parents and child. Separation and returning to each other seems like the natural way of things to us, like the process by which a toddler learns that it's okay to venture away from the mother because she will be there when the toddler returns. To me, there is also a step during which it is affirmed that separations are temporary and an opportunity to regroup.

I want to clarify that time out isn't something that we've used with great frequency. Since our kids have plenty of room to be kids, we don't need it all that much. In other words, we don't expect age inappropriate behaviors from our kids and we recognize that we are all human and make mistakes.

Making mistakes is safe, in our house. Part of the learning process, nothing to dread or to fear.
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#42 of 50 Old 08-10-2006, 10:38 PM
 
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Not at all to diminish the sibling rivalry aspect to this (how old is the sister?), but my toddler is also a hitter and also throws heavy items with glee, loves to kick maniacally too. I know he would NEVER understand if I made him go away from us- he doesn't even get why his sister is angry when he hurts her. So I just repeat various mantras: "throw the sand away from people." "That's for (insert true use), not throwing, here's a ball you can throw." With hitting - well, we made sure he has several drums and tambourines (and "you can hit your drum" "you can hit the couch" "you can hit the ball", we clap vigorous rhythms, or "let's play pattycake" - and he can slap my palms as hard as he wants).

One of these things usually works. Even if he's hitting from anger sometimes he still just wants to hit, and the diversion both diffuses his emotional upset and serves his physical need. Other times I snuggle up to him, empathize and try to help him through the angry feelings. I also regularly show him "gentle gentle" and ask him if he wants to repeat that gentle stroke on the person's body where he just hurt them. Usually the injured party is amenable, and ds is also amenable to this and gets very tender with the person, which helps them forgive him! I also try to spend separate special time with each of my kids, even for an hour or two, whenever i can.

hope that helps.

my babes are 2 years and her sister is 9 months, ive tried showing her how to be gentle ive dont that for 7 months, but it doesnt seem to be working for her, im just scared she might really injure dd really bad, because we've had some really bad incidents (dd throwing a really heavy glass at dd and hitting her right in the foreheadd) and once (i totally blame myself, please dont think i am a bad mom, it was a stupid mistake) i put my youngest dd in her crib for a minute so i can go to the washroom and dd 2 crawled in and put a blanket over her head and was suffocating her (she probably thought she was playing, but dd was crying hard) luckily i was only gone for 30 seconds. I really feel like this has to stop right away! and i need a fast fix if it's possible, I do always supervise them and am pretty much always on the floor with them when they are at play, but dd always finds away to kick my youngest dd when she is walking by or slap her when we're reading a story or playing together...
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#43 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 10:33 PM
 
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I understand that it can be uncomfortable to see others discipline their child.  And perhaps the timeout could have been more gentle. However, the mom who did the time out is setting boundaries that unacceptable behavior will not be tolerated. I think a short time out and explaining we don't take toys is okay. I would not have set a timer, and I I think just long enough to say hey, we don't do this or that is a long enough time out for kids under 3, then a hug then allowed to play again.  The mom was trying to say I still love you, even though your behavior was not okay.  It's over and we can move on.   

 

Did you explain to your daughter why her friend was getting the timeout?  How do you handle similar situations?  

 

My daughter is very hyper and has intense energy and pushes boundaries, so I am always interested in what moms think is best when you kiddo does something that is not okay.  If you don't act enough moms think oh my, you did nothing, and if you do too much they think oh my, she's mommy dearest.  It's a tricky balance.  I know with ADHD, the boundaries need to be firm and solid.  That is the fun that I think we have here.  Although we have not gotten a diagnoses from a doctor, I've been looking at online test, and much much of the behavior is all too familiar, especially they hyper component of the surveys.  We have a group play date tomorrow and I'm concerned.  My daughter is now 41/2, so on strike two, we just leave. We had a play date on Tues. she did great, the other kids, 2 and 4 were the offenders.  Today, Weds. she did just okay I give her a C to a C-.   So tomorrow I have no idea how it will go.  I am open to ideas, please.

 

And time outs, the parent or the one giving a timeout needs to stay calm, not be angry.  It is a time for the child to calm down. And to also establish if you do something not okay, you will be removed from the situation.  

 

We do not give time out for all behavior, if she throws a toy, it's taken away until she calms down and apologizes, for example. However, when my daughter gets crazy energy she just needs to calm her body and mind.  When she was younger I would hold her on my lap, but now that she will be 5 in Jan. I want her to learn to calm herself on her own. When she gets crazed, she needs to calm her mind and body and needs personal space to do so.

 

I also think it is good for adults to learn, - hey I am all fired up, I need to step back, breath, calm myself and revisit the situation. At work, with a loved one, it can be a beneficial life skill.  Kind of like a mini meditation, you are not getting kicked out because you are not loved, you have learned to take a time out so that you can more calmly interact with those you love or have to work with.

 

I am open to ideas on what to do at play dates when the kiddo is doing something not okay.  Because sometime mine will go right back to what I just asked her not to do: please do not fill in the blank, that is not kind, you need to apologize. She says sorry and does it again, thus my time out.  

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#44 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 11:08 PM
 
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"However, the mom who did the time out is setting boundaries that unacceptable behavior will not be tolerated."

All the little girl did was express emotion. She got frustrated and didn't understand why she couldn't have the toy. This is not "unacceptable behavior", it's human nature at her age. She's too small to learn anything from being punished for this other than feeling like her emotions are not acceptable. It's sad, really.

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#45 of 50 Old 08-28-2013, 11:19 PM
 
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So he did not grab the toy from your child?

The reason I am so interested is because my child can grab toys or block another from getting a toy that she wants or a slide etc.

And I am trying to figure out how to better discipline at play dates.

But my daughter is 4 1/2.  I stay with her and our time outs are to calm down so that she regroups and does not go back to the same behavior that was not okay.

Sometimes she does great, and sometimes she does not.  

 

Also, when do we teach that we can feel emotions but can't act on impulse?  I think it's gradual, and shown by example?

I try to ask, can you tell me how you are feeling or what's going on, then pivot onto I understand you wanted that, but you friend was playing with it, can you give it back?  I feel like I'm pulling out all the stops and that her behavior is not predictable.   Now when she was 2, I approached things differently.  However at 2 she actually shared better that she does now.  She was gentle and would just let he other kiddos have the toys.  Now however, she is making up for lost time, leaving me at times at a loss!

 

I think on strike two we will leave the play date.  Now that she is older I think she will get it, I will asked to you not do xy or z, if you continue I will give you time to calm down and refocus. If you do something not okay again, that you know not to do, we will leave.  

 

Any Ideas?

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#46 of 50 Old 08-29-2013, 08:10 AM
 
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So he did not grab the toy from your child?
The reason I am so interested is because my child can grab toys or block another from getting a toy that she wants or a slide etc.
And I am trying to figure out how to better discipline at play dates.
But my daughter is 4 1/2.  I stay with her and our time outs are to calm down so that she regroups and does not go back to the same behavior that was not okay.
Sometimes she does great, and sometimes she does not.  

Also, when do we teach that we can feel emotions but can't act on impulse?  I think it's gradual, and shown by example?
I try to ask, can you tell me how you are feeling or what's going on, then pivot onto I understand you wanted that, but you friend was playing with it, can you give it back?  I feel like I'm pulling out all the stops and that her behavior is not predictable.   Now when she was 2, I approached things differently.  However at 2 she actually shared better that she does now.  She was gentle and would just let he other kiddos have the toys.  Now however, she is making up for lost time, leaving me at times at a loss!

I think on strike two we will leave the play date.  Now that she is older I think she will get it, I will asked to you not do xy or z, if you continue I will give you time to calm down and refocus. If you do something not okay again, that you know not to do, we will leave.  

Any Ideas?

I think all of that sounds really good. What you're actually doing is a "time in", which is totally different than a time out as it involves helping the child to work through the issue and not using abandonment as a punishment. At two years old they don't really have a concept of sharing. They simply can't truly understand what is wanted. You can offer the child something else to play with, and also make the child aware of the emotions of the other child he/she had taken from. For example, "See how Johnny is crying? He was playing with the train and now he's sad because you took it from him. Maybe if you give it back it will make him feel better." If the issue is not resolved and the other child is upset, then I would try and get another toy out to offer to the offending child. If the upset child wants the new toy I will give it to him/her. Does that make sense?

Now, a four year old can understand sharing. What I try to do is "taking turns", that way my son knows he will get a turn eventually. If he takes a toy away and the other child is crying, I will point out the sadness of the other child. Usually, he will give it back to help the child stop crying. He is very empathetic, and I'd like to say some of that was learned from me, because I always try to show him empathy for his feelings rather than make him wrong for feeling them.

I don't know that I would leave a play date because he wasn't sharing, but ask me in a few months when I have a new baby and my son is four!! I try not to do that kind of stuff because it feels too punitive to me, but I do understand that sometimes it just seems like the only option.

HTH!!
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#47 of 50 Old 08-29-2013, 09:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by " 

Quote:



Originally Posted by sphinx






my babes are 2 years and her sister is 9 months, ive tried showing her how to be gentle ive dont that for 7 months, but it doesnt seem to be working for her, im just scared she might really injure dd really bad, because we've had some really bad incidents (dd throwing a really heavy glass at dd and hitting her right in the foreheadd) and once (i totally blame myself, please dont think i am a bad mom, it was a stupid mistake) i put my youngest dd in her crib for a minute so i can go to the washroom and dd 2 crawled in and put a blanket over her head and was suffocating her (she probably thought she was playing, but dd was crying hard) luckily i was only gone for 30 seconds. I really feel like this has to stop right away! and i need a fast fix if it's possible, I do always supervise them and am pretty much always on the floor with them when they are at play, but dd always finds away to kick my youngest dd when she is walking by or slap her when we're reading a story or playing together...

That sounds hard, truly. I can only imagine what I would do (and have done) in your situation, which would be to keep your youngest up-up in a carrier or wrap unless you or another trusted adult can facilitate the sibling's interactions. I'd aim to play up all positive interactions and ignore any harmless slights. When you see your older child prepare to hit, bite, or throw, then growl. Seriously.
Sounds odd, but it can work. Especially as an alternative to the over-used and exhausted "No!"
Use a low, serious tone, and offer a distraction (build a tower! Puppet! Sing a song!) or redirect (high five! Finger play!) and go back to celebrating their positive interactions to the nth degree.
The key is to anticipate your older child's actions ... Learn to read the signals and cues.
The hitting, throwing, kicking always happens as a part of a progression. If you miss it and the little one gets hurt, pay big attention to the little one and point out the baby's expressions/feelings to your toddler. That helps build empathy, which goes a long way to helping siblings thrive together long term, which matters so much more than right now.
I would not do TO in this case ... In my mind, time outs would only serve to alienate the siblings from each other, build resentments between them, and show your older child that you think they're 'bad' when in truth it's more a matter of developmental timing & impulse control mixed with Big Feelings about this baby that showed up, rocked the boat, and is now obviously staying for good.
Hope some of that helps!

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#48 of 50 Old 08-29-2013, 10:50 AM
 
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This thread is great- I haven't had time to carefully read through all the posts, but I will this evening. I've always been anti- time out. I was a daycare provider before having DS and even taught workshops on time-ins and other time- out alternatives. However, I've ended up using time-outs with DS. I find myself so triggered by DS's tantrums and boundary testing that time-out seems like the safest option. I always run through the list of other options first- i offer alternatives, distract, etc. but DS is one of the strongest willed children i've ever met. When he doesn't get his way, he fights with all he's got-- even if I offer other options or try to redirect his attention. His intense screaming (not crying- screaming) hits me in a way that I just lose it-eventually I can feel my heart rate rise, I begin to shake, and just feel completely overwhelmed and out of control. I've tried removing myself from the situation- giving myself a time- out-- but I can't get centered with DS banging on the bathroom door and screaming. I often end up sobbing because I feel unable to stay calm, and unable to comfort DS when I know that's probably what he needs. I've never hit or spanked or been rough with DS, but I also can't bring myself to hold or hug him anymore when he's having a tantrum (I used to do this when he was younger.) I know it sounds ridiculous- I realize it is-- but I feel violated in a way by his noise and anger and outbursts and I can't reach the tender place inside myself to comfort him. I get so angry that none of the gentle alternatives work- I feel like my training and tools fail me, and then I just get angry with DS. I realize these reactions aren't helpful, but I don't know what else to try.

I should add- DS is free to come out of his room at any point- if he comes out screaming I walk him back to his room and explain that he can come out when he's calm. I don't use a timer or lock the door. When I've calmed down, I go to him in his room, give him a hug, and talk about the situation. I wish that we could avoid the escalation though and move to resolution more quickly. I'm open to any suggestions- I practice meditation and yoga regularly in an attempt to be more centered and less easily triggered.

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#49 of 50 Old 08-30-2013, 11:54 AM
 
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Although I think time-outs can be effective, the way this mom did it was not effective for a child so young.  Removing her from the upsetting situation was a good idea, but making her sit alone in a specific place for a specific amount of time didn't teach her anything, at least not anything helpful!

 

Sweetpea333 wrote:

Quote:
 my babes are 2 years and her sister is 9 months, ive tried showing her how to be gentle ive dont that for 7 months, but it doesnt seem to be working for her, im just scared she might really injure dd really bad, because we've had some really bad incidents (dd throwing a really heavy glass at dd and hitting her right in the foreheadd) and once (i totally blame myself, please dont think i am a bad mom, it was a stupid mistake) i put my youngest dd in her crib for a minute so i can go to the washroom and dd 2 crawled in and put a blanket over her head and was suffocating her (she probably thought she was playing, but dd was crying hard) luckily i was only gone for 30 seconds. I really feel like this has to stop right away! and i need a fast fix if it's possible, I do always supervise them and am pretty much always on the floor with them when they are at play, but dd always finds away to kick my youngest dd when she is walking by or slap her when we're reading a story or playing together...

Two ideas:

 

As the older sibling myself, I have to wonder WHY your older child is trying to hurt the baby.  Most times I hit my brother were because he drooled on me (I was very disgusted by this) or damaged something of mine.  Babies can't help drooling and truly don't understand why not to tear or crumple or rearrange certain things, but that doesn't mean the older child's feelings aren't hurt by it.  Make sure that you are empathizing with your older daughter's feelings and that she has some opportunities to play out of reach of the baby.

 

Try putting your focus on comforting the baby, instead of on disciplining the older child.  I haven't tried this with children so young, but with preschoolers and older it can be very effective at getting the hitter to understand why hitting is wrong (because it hurts people) instead of feeling resentment at being punished for an act that probably was partly motivated by something the victim did (so it feels unfair).  Since hurting the baby has been a problem most of the time the baby has been in the family, your daughter may be doing it as a way to get your attention, to show you that she feels angry at the baby for even existing.  You can give her more positive attention at other times, and that may help, but it's important NOT to make hurting the baby an effective way to get attention.

 

MomAngela wrote:

Quote:
 Also, when do we teach that we can feel emotions but can't act on impulse?  I think it's gradual, and shown by example?
I try to ask, can you tell me how you are feeling or what's going on, then pivot onto I understand you wanted that, but you friend was playing with it, can you give it back?

I think you're doing pretty well.  You might try this approach:

Remove her from the situation, help her get calm, make sure you know what was the problem, then say,

"You wanted X, so you did Y.  It's not okay to do Y.  Instead, when you want X, do Z.  Let's practice that."

For example, "You wanted the panda, so you grabbed it from Emily.  It's not okay to grab toys when someone else is using them.  Instead, when you want a toy someone is using, say, 'Can I please have a turn with the panda?'  Let's practice that.  Let's pretend I'm playing with this pillow and you want it."  Pick up the pillow and toss it from hand to hand with a happy smile.  If your daughter asks politely for a turn with the pillow, say, "Okay, just a moment," play for a few more seconds, say, "Your turn!" and hand it to her.


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#50 of 50 Old 09-02-2013, 12:42 PM
 
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I'm fairly certain I would have sat next to child on the couch/hugged/held/spoken softly to comfort her. I may even have given her the toy in question. This may very well have ended the playdate... IMHO, 2YO's are still very much babies and shouldn't be subjected this type of punishment. Employing this kind of technique with a baby or very young child may result in a child who is not securly attached, or who doesn't bond properly with caregivers. This will set parent and child up for a LOT more problems down the road.

For 'playdate' situations with children who can't share, I might have held a child on my lap for a while, perhaps removed the offending toy and replaced with blocks or some other easy to share toy. They are little, they will learn to share, eventually.
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