Trying to understand... toys at the playground - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by octobermom
suck it up and wait while the person who took it decides their ready to give back whats rightfull the others anyways???? Thats NOT empowing.
This is what I was referring too as not being the only option. There are many other choices, of which, this is only one.
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#62 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 02:40 PM
 
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#63 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 02:41 PM
 
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All we can do as parents is teach OUR kids how to react. Or we can react for them, if that is what we chose. But, even if we are reacting for them, we are still teaching them. I prefer to teach my children to problem solve.
This I agree with though I will still be the advocate for my child. I will watch her emotions and if I need to I will "step on" and retake her property (ussually by getting the parent to help) its the idea though that I should wait around for even why someone decides the do or dont want to return something or that I should wait around while My own child decides..

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#64 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 02:41 PM
 
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If anyone is missing their family's lawnmower, don't look at me
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#65 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 02:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Twocoolboys
This is what I was referring too as not being the only option. There are many other choices, of which, this is only one.
Okay : I'm totally lost? WHats another option????

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#66 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 02:53 PM
 
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So if we all met at the park would this scenario be reasonable to everyone? I am very curious now how this would work!

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.

This is roughly what happened at every positive discipline playgroup we attended.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#67 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:01 PM
 
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I haven't gotten through all the posts, but thought I'd just add what I would do. I would tell my DC that the toy belonged to the other child and ask/encourage them to give it back. If that didn't work, the "trade" option works pretty well for us. DS "trades" the toy back and in turn gets to play with something else. A trade-off of sorts. So far, this has worked very well for us. We use it mainly when DS has accidently gotten ahold of something we don't allow him to have - a pen in the living room for example - we just ask him to trade us the object for the favor of another, more appropriate toy.
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#68 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by octobermom
Its NOT up to YOU (emphaizng not yelling ) to decide how patient MY child needs to be. I teach and will teach my child that people are more important than things. It is NOT okay for her to violently grab back anything or for her to push bite or otherwise be aggressive. But honestly I just don't get this idea that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one" Their is IMHO a big diffrence controlling emotions and being the victum.
Deanna, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I don't think that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one."
I believe that if my child takes something from another child and the other child is upset by it, my child should give it back. I insist that he does. I insist by telling him that he needs to give it back. I don't expect immediate compliance (he is only 2, afterall.) I will also ask if he wants me to give it back for him, and hold out my hand for him to put the toy into. (Often, this is all the encouragement he needs.). I wait maybe 10 seconds. I say again that he needs to give the toy back. I continue to gently insist until he gives it back. The thing I don't do is take it from him.

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better. I will do what I can to get the toy back to the upset child as quickly as possible.

If ds was the one who's toy had been taken and he was upset, I would help him figure out ways to get his toy back.
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#69 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:16 PM
 
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I don't see how not allowing my child to be a victim equates to not teaching him to have control over his emotions. I didn't imply that my child has any right to take a toy back from another child w/o first trying to ask for it back politely. That is always the first option. However, if the other child refuses to give back a toy that is rightfully my childs I don't expect my child to sit around and wait for the other child to decide when he's ready to give it back either. If the parent's aren't going to step in and insist that their child give back the toy, than I will. I will do it as kindly and politely as possible. I will try to spare as many tears as I can, however, I will not allow anyone's child to bully mine. It is not fair to my child to have to sit patiently by while watching another child play with a toy that HE was just playing with and that HE didn't offer up to the other child because that child has made the decision that he's not ready to give it back yet. I would not allow my own children to behave in that manner and I won't allow them to be pushed around by other kids also. I'm not labelling kids as bullies here, either. I don't think that the child taking the toy is necessarilly being a bully, he is being a toddler. However, if you teach that child that he doesn't have to give up what doesn't even belong to him until he's ready while another child is standing by waiting and crying and upset than you are not only teaching your child how to be a bully but you are teaching him that his feelings are more important than the other childs.

All of my older kids do have great coping skills. I think that the reason that they have good coping skills is partially due to the fact that I don't teach them to sit idley by while being picked on by other children. I don't expect exquisite coping skills from a 3yo. I expect responsible parenting.
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#70 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.
Yup. This is what my group of friends generally does too.

My two year old has been on both ends of this issue, and no matter what side she is on, I find myself empathizing with her and wishing the other child would be more flexible. I think it is human nature to empathize more with our own children, and I think this can cause some conflict at playgroups.

My toddler has two toys that she is very attached to right now, and she insists that they come everywhere with her. I don't allow other children to play with them without her consent, but she knows that if we are going to play with other kids, and she doesn't want to share, the toys have to go up high/in the bike trailer/somewhere out of reach.

It is not equivalent to someone taking my knitting/lawnmower, because children do not have the same impulse control that adults do. If I knew that by taking my knitting out, I was risking my friends really really wanting to grab it and being unable to control themselves or sitting in jealousy and grief while I knitted, I would choose to leave my knitting at home.

I also attempt to reason with my child if she is the "snatcher," while the other child waits, but I do not expect them to wait an inordinate amount of time, and am not above prying my child's white knuckled hands away, and returning the toy to the original child, explaining gently all the while about how that is so and so's toy, maybe they will share it in a minute. That is not my first resort, but I've done it, and I think it's okay.
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#71 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:27 PM
 
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Okay, so I just read Pat's post (#16) and read the first link she posted. She managed to say there what I've been trying to say here in so many posts. (And much more eloquently than I could say it.)
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#72 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama2mygirl
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.
I really like this story. Everything is situational. I find that there are times when I might jump to correct my sons behavior a little too soon, more so because I'm afraid of what the other kids mother will think of me. At play-dates we try to let the kids figure it out on their own as much as possible. I feel that is important for them to sort things out, and it's great to witness a two year old handing a toy over and saying "XXXX's turn" At the park with strangers I will encourage my son to ask if I see him eying a toy. 95% of the time it gets shared.
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#73 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by artgoddess
At play-dates we try to let the kids figure it out on their own as much as possible.
I'm cautious with this, because while it is great when it works, sometimes letting them sort it out means the more assertive child gets their way while a less assertive child gets bullied.
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#74 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:39 PM
 
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The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better.
Well, for me it wasn't about making people feel better, I chose to guide him through a demonstration of our responsibility to other people. There were a few times that my son refused to give up an expensive toy in a store, or a breakable object he grabbed that friend asked him to put back. When he refused to let it go I put it back for him. He was temporarily upset, but his lasting impression was the responsibility we have to other's feelings as well as our own.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#75 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:39 PM
 
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That's not what happened to my daughter. The example you posted lasted, what, two minutes? In my real life example, it took around fifteen minutes.
How on earth did my poor girl get to be the bully in this!?!?!?
Or, what did someone say--she was acting the same way the original child acted?
The first time it took this mother fifteen minutes to take the toy away--because the child never was ready. The second time, her toy was taken, the mother began what even I assumed was going to be a LONG LONG talk, which the first time involved singing two songs to cheer the child up, my daughter saw what was coming and after she ASKED FOR HER TOY BACK and it wasn't returned, she took it back.
How on earth is that wrong?

Of course toddlers all take toys. My daughter has more or less stopped at three but even now she still sometimes takes. I am the mom in the example. I say, "X was playing with that. You can have a turn when X is done. ...X is telling you it was his turn....You need to give it back to X or I can help you."
It doesn't ever take more than a minute. I am not exaggerating my example. It took a really long time while my child was sobbing because her favorite toy was taken away.
So, since she did ASK the child for the toy back and nothing happened what was her next option?(For the people that think this was WRONG.)

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#76 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:42 PM
 
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Deanna, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I don't think that the victum should be the one to be the "stronger one."
I believe that if my child takes something from another child and the other child is upset by it, my child should give it back. I insist that he does. I insist by telling him that he needs to give it back. I don't expect immediate compliance (he is only 2, afterall.) I will also ask if he wants me to give it back for him, and hold out my hand for him to put the toy into. (Often, this is all the encouragement he needs.). I wait maybe 10 seconds. I say again that he needs to give the toy back. I continue to gently insist until he gives it back. The thing I don't do is take it from him.

The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better. I will do what I can to get the toy back to the upset child as quickly as possible.

If ds was the one who's toy had been taken and he was upset, I would help him figure out ways to get his toy back.
Actually I'm like 99% in agreement BUT I do feel its my responsiblity to make sure that my child (assumeing it was ashe who took it) returns to toy quickly yes I will consider the fact shes 3 but I will not wait around more than a minute or so (considering the others reation as my guide). Now honestly I can only think of two situations where simpily saying , "That belongs to X please give it back" hasn't resulted in her complience but it has come up. I'm not questioning those few moments of normal toddlerim but rather when the child decides they wont give it back. Is their EVER a time when you'd "insist"?

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#77 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:44 PM
 
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How on earth did my poor girl get to be the bully in this
I don't think anyone has said that. If it took the other family more than a minute to give back her toy, I'd expect her to react this way too.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#78 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:55 PM
 
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See this link about children identified as "bullies". http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ng#post5762126 Post #6. Seeing the "grabber" as "wrong" doesn't help resolve the conflicting needs.

Judgement doesn't help. Help doesn't judge.

I want to help to identify and facilitate meeting the "grabber's" underlying needs in addition so that *grabbing* isn't meeting an underlying need. He is only *2* (in this hypothetical) btw, not "expected" to have impulse control, or empathy awareness. Or ask his parent to facilitate.

What if a parent is not there to "take back" the toy? I would want our child to ask for help resolving the conflict, not to grab it back. Two "wrongs" don't make a "right" as they say. I would hope that an adult could demonstarate alternative tools of resloving conflicts than taking what you want (regardless of the reason). I believe that there are many alternatives that honor both *children's* needs that make *taking* the toy from the child's hands unnecessary.

This is the link that abac referenced regarding modelling "using our words" instead of grabbing. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...highlight=grab Post #8.


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#79 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 03:57 PM
 
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Is their EVER a time when you'd "insist"?
I do insist. I just don't do it in a physical way. And I would insist in a physical way if my child was in danger of being seriously hurt.
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#80 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:02 PM
 
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But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??? How long do we sit by and let our own child feel like his or her feelings are less important than the grabbers? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to compromise his or her toys simply because the grabber is unwilling to give the toy back? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to stifle his or her feelings so that another child might not be upset? That IS creating a bully/victim situation in where one child is being forced to set his or her own feelings aside so that the more agressive child gets what he or she wants. It's not fair to do that to children.
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#81 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:14 PM
 
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Yeah, okay, I give. No one did say that.
I just don't see what else my daughter could have done.
Also, I should add, that in my first example, the boy NEVER was ready to give the toy up. His mama "helped" him give it back.
I should also say that I don't see this kid as a bully.I'm quite fond of him. We play with them all the time. It's just the whole thing where he takes things and doesn't give them back until he's ready--that's a little frustrating for my dd. Actually, it's the mom's reaction that is frustrating but not so frustrating that we don't hang out with them.

Also, I never said the boy was a bully or was BAD for grabbing the toy. Of course that's a normal toddler behavior.

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#82 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wende
But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??? How long do we sit by and let our own child feel like his or her feelings are less important than the grabbers? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to compromise his or her toys simply because the grabber is unwilling to give the toy back? Why should the child who's toy was taken have to stifle his or her feelings so that another child might not be upset? That IS creating a bully/victim situation in where one child is being forced to set his or her own feelings aside so that the more agressive child gets what he or she wants. It's not fair to do that to children.
YEa thats my question

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#83 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:19 PM
 
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But what if, even with the help of an adult, the grabber still refuses to give the toy back??
I think the majority of people who responded would step in at this point and give the toy back.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#84 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:22 PM
 
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Again, my daughter did ASK for the toy back. So since she did ASK and didn't get a result--what next?
The boy would not release the toy. Like I said, even the mother ran out of ideas and took the toy.
Yes, in a wonderful theory, the mother and would have helped the boy want to give the boy back my dd's toy. Life isn't theory.

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#85 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:35 PM
 
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He was temporarily upset, but his lasting impression was the responsibility we have to other's feelings as well as our own.
This is an interesting "lesson" that I don't choose to impose on our son. I believe that he can observe and deduce the impact of his actions with my verbal acknowledgement and observatons of the other child's verbals and non-verbals. And that he can see me empathizing with the other child. But, I don't feel "ownership" or "responsibility" for other's emotions. I see that some actions of mine have impact in vary different degrees, depending upon the individual. But, I don't want my interactions *done to* our son to give the "impression" of responsibility to other's feelings.

The opportunities to learn empathy present themselves naturally, like when our son has been upset at having a toy taken, he experienced the correllation between action and impact. And he can deduce (without a lesson being imposed) that someone might feel sad when something is taken from him. Taking the toy from our son, and knowing that our son would probably feel "upset", seems to model inconsideration and disrespect for feelings that I AM aware that my child might have. This seems to be the opposite "lesson" than you are wanting to impart. And I would be concerned that our son would thus learn that mama does things that she is telling me not to do, and she that knows I will be upset, and is doing it to me anyway. IMO, that models doing things to them even when you know others will be upset. I prefer to facilitate our son's awareness of the impact of his actions, without imposing a "lesson". I trust that:

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Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.




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#86 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mama2mygirl
I had a parent take a really really long time to give a toy back to my child. She waited and waited for her son to be ready. She did end up taking the toy from her son but it took Forever while my child was sobbing. Both my daughter and I were frustrated.
I kept trying to figure out what I would do the next time something like that happened. But it turns out my dd figured it out for herself.The next time the same boy took my daughter's toy, on a totally different day, his mom starting the whole letting him be ready to give it back and my dd just reached over and grabbed it back for herself. I was fine with that.
I would be fine with that too. I refuse to allwo my children to be bullied and teach them to stand up forthemselves politely but firmly if need be. Your dd gave the kids some time but enough already. She isn't dumb. She could see where this was going.

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#87 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:47 PM
 
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What does it say about me that I'm getting hot and sweaty and upset just reading this thread?

While I've encountered several situations where the opportunity was given for the taker to give back the toy - sometimes they just absolutely refuse to relinquish what they've snatched without permission.

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Taking the toy from our son, and knowing that our son would probably feel "upset", seems to model inconsideration and disrespect for feelings that I AM aware that my child might have. This seems to be the opposite "lesson" than you are wanting to impart.
I really do understand what you're saying here, however when dealing with two, three and four year olds - I don't see how applicable it is. Trying to model appropriate behaviour for our children is an admirable goal, but at the risk of injuring the self worth and confidence of a toddler or preschooler is not something that I personally am willing to do. By physically assisting my daughter (after other avenues, quickly, have not worked) shows her that her taking someone else's toy/possession is not going to be tolerated. That's *real* life...

We were also raised with two wrongs don't make a right, but again, my daughter will learn the importance of respecting someone else's physical property - and if she needs a little physical (but gentle) intervention from me, I'm more than willing to go there.

Quote:
The fact is that my inaction might be upsetting to the other child. That's unfortunate, but I will not pry something out of my child's hands to make someone else feel better.
Not sure why - but the last sentence in this quote just really upsets me and makes me feel very sad. So your child's need to work through a tantrum/misunderstanding is more important than the heartbroken/sobbing/misunderstanding of a child who has been wronged?

Again, I'm all for allowing/guiding/encouraging children to work it out - but I know for a fact that even with those things, my daughter would be pummeled and bullied (at this age especially) without help and assistance from myself.

Interesting conversation.

Full time working mom to two bright and busy little girls! treehugger.gif
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#88 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 04:49 PM
 
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Hey, Lilyka, thanks!

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#89 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 05:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by heartmama
Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.

.
that would be acceptable with everyone i hang out with.

with very small kids however we know the importance of supervising so chances are someone would be there intercept child 2's hand (as in our children are usually on our laps or within arms reach when toys are involved) before she ever got to the shovel. then child two would be given a chance to compose themselves (if nessecary) and instructed on ways to ask nicely for a shovel, wait thier turn etc and helped to do so.

that is only amoung my good friends though. if my child took something from a stranger I wuld give it back to the other child promptly and help my child work through it seperately. My friends are my partners in childrearing and have more patience with me and my child that I wopuld expect a stranger to. There children are parented similarly and know what to expect. the kids who don't know me don't know that they can trust me to get thier toy back. all they know of our family is that the short one is a snatcher. thats got to be hard for a kid. Fortunately I don't think this has ever happened (they aren't keen on strangers noticing them and it is hard to keep a low profile when your snatching toys but with friends and family . . who different story)

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#90 of 204 Old 08-28-2006, 05:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Mom of Child 1 says "You can tell Child 2 "I was playing with that. Please give it back". Child 1 tearfully says this to child 2.

Child 2 says (getting upset and starting ot cry) "no, it's mine now!!".

Mom of child 2 says "Child 1 was using that shovel. Let's give it back. Then when he is done, you can ask for a turn". Child 2 shrieks and starts to cry "No, no, it's mine now!". Mom says gently "Child 1 was using the shovel. Can I help you give it back to Child 1?" Child 2 is inconsolable and will not budge.

Mom of child 2 gives the shovel back to child 1. Then she comforts her own child. Later when child 1 is playing with something else, mom of Child 2 helps him ask child 1 for a turn with the shovel.
In my perfect world , here's what would happen-

Two 3 year olds are playing.

Child 1 is engrossed in digging sand tunnels with his shovel

Child 2 grabs the shovel and turns to his own corner to use it

Child 1 shrieks and starts to cry

Caregiver comes over to Child 1 and asks if they are upset because Child 2 took the shovel they were using to dig with.

Child 1 says yes or nodds.

Caregiver asks Child 1 if they will come over to Child 2 with them to try to find a solution to the problem. Together, then Caregiver explains the problem, that Child 1 is upset about the shovel being grabbed and still wants to use it, and Child 2 must have wanted to use it too. Problem solving ensues. Likely at this young age Caregiver presents several possible solutions to the problem, such as-

1. Child 1 and Child 2 agree to take turns and a specified time both are okay with waiting on is agreed upon.

2. Caregiver can show both children alternative ways to dig, with their hands, with small sticks, etc. so that both children can play at digging even though there is only one shovel.

3. One or both children could agree to an alternate activity if there is only one shovel. Would one or both of you rather do something else? We can blow bubbles, toss this ball, play tag, run in circles, etc etc.

Then Caregiver can listen for Child 1 and Child 2 to have ideas or talk about the suggestions made by the Caregiver and hopefully come to a solution to the problem that is okay with both of them.


Sometimes I am better at helping my children through conflict than others, and at 4 and 6, they handle most of their conflicts between themselves. Being in a public setting with strangers would for sure put a spin on things, and if it was someone else's property in question who was not an actual friend that would put a spin on it too. I would still hope to be able to find a way to help them solve the conflict without physical force in my perfect world .

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