Punishment: is it ever necessary? - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 188 Old 02-28-2007, 03:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deva33mommy View Post
Did we agree on using the word "penalty" to refer to unrelated consequences that are intended to change behavior? I have no problem clarifying "I don't punish" with "punishments that are used as a penalty" or something like that.
Penalty seems like a pretty good word. But the consequence doesn't have to be unrelated for it to be the kind of penalty most of us want to avoid, does it?

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Those of you who think of punishment in terms of the technical definition- do you have a background in psychology or something related?
I have a background in biology, and I've spent a lot of time reading and thinking about dog training. The operant conditioning way of thinking about punishment seems so natural to me, I was honestly surprised to find how unnatural it seems to a lot of other people.
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#182 of 188 Old 02-28-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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Penalty seems like a pretty good word. But the consequence doesn't have to be unrelated for it to be the kind of penalty most of us want to avoid, does it?
I agree.
Geez- my brain has been well excercised the last few days! lol

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#183 of 188 Old 02-28-2007, 05:20 PM
 
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Those of you who think of punishment in terms of the technical definition- do you have a background in psychology or something related?
Developmental psychology and psycholinguistics - so I've taught about behaviorism a lot. I can even get into positive and negative rewards and the differenes between operant and classical conditioning! (But I won't.)

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However, if you caught me on a bad day I'd say "hey, this toy is not for throwing!!" and I'd shove it up on a shelf!
That's a bad day? Oh boy do I have a long way to go!

My bad days are "DON'T THROW THAT TOY!" (at full volume) or "If you throw that toy one more time, it's going out into the garage!" (complete and utter threat). :

I think I'll back out now too...

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#184 of 188 Old 02-28-2007, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deva33mommy View Post
Those of you who think of punishment in terms of the technical definition- do you have a background in psychology or something related?
Psych degree... plus I have 15 years of ABA hands-on experience with people with autism and other special needs - I can't stop myself from thinking of the technical definition for punishment and don't always realize that other people aren't using that same definition. Its like second nature to me, I guess.

But in spite of lots of experience with ABA, I don't use it (deliberately) with our own child.

Oh but I just wanted to add that I have learned way more from Mamaduck, Piglet68, WuWei, Sledg, MsMoMpls, and many others here on MDC about parenting than I ever learned from my psych degree
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#185 of 188 Old 03-24-2007, 07:17 PM
 
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Also, I don't know if the definition even matters. What do I care if someone thinks I am punishing my kid? At the end of the day, how my family feels and works together is the most important thing, not what label we use to define ourselves.
I think you are right!
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#186 of 188 Old 03-25-2007, 03:47 PM
 
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It was going from having very definite punishment for our 'negative' actions to having it be hit or miss...because really that's what it is in the real world. People speed all the time...but they don't always get a ticket. People have casual sex quite often...but the don't always end up pregnant. I think that is one of the dangers, if you will, of punishment. A child learns to react in response to the imposed artificial consequences, rather than out or respect for what is right.
I think this is an absolutely brilliant point, and it underlines why we have chosen not to use punishment. I really do think that most of what punishment teaches kids is that bad things happen IF you get caught.

Anyway, we use coercion occasionally as a last resort (eg, I will put her forcibly in the carseat if I really have to) and we will remove DD from a situation she can't handle or an object, animal, or person she cannot treat safely and respectfully. But we do not punish in the sense of using time-outs, removal of privileges, etc. I often forget how nonmainstream this is, because actually I think we're fairly strict parents.

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#187 of 188 Old 03-25-2007, 05:56 PM
 
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I struggled to learn GD- coming from a very abusive background and I can remember the day that it dawned on me the difference between punishment and discipline - I had not been hitting the kids for a long time but felt I was very permissive and was not happy the older kids did not have as many good healthy limits or ways of interacting-- any how one day I had sent them into different rooms for - I don't even remember, what I do remember is that they were each laughing and having fun- doing something else - and I was mad about the fact that they were having fun- then I stopped and big light bulb came on-- ok what was my intent- to stop or change what they were doing before- why should I be upset that they are happily doing something else? and that was the key to defining punishment for me- I didn't need to punish- but I did need the kids to be responsive, responsible and aware/respectful of others--- If I were to endeavor to PUNISH it would actually be modeling the opposite of what I wanted from them. re-directing them or having them move to another room or area of the house to be away from each other as to not be hurting each other -some time and space to reflect and regroup, can teach them how to get what they really want and that is to be happy and enjoying themselves as well as how to approprately approach a conflict first with thought and not just physical action--- unfortunately any and many of the same things can be used to punish-- I know i have very clear limits in my mind about what feels like punishment - I think that kids can be raised without punishment but would have to basically agree and disagree with OP's statement "(and I consider imposed consequences to be punishment)" has to do with intent and what you think consequences are-- if say an adult were to hit me- I would call the police and want them jailed and first of all I would get away remove myself from the situation- If my child hits me or another child- it has to stop- it is not permissed or ignored and I will not be calling the police, sometimes words work and sometimes not- attention to the hurt child and ingnoring the offender can sometimes work- asking a hitting child to remove themselves to another room to cool down- and we will discuss it later-if it is a concerted effort all will leave the room or seperate themselves until they can stop being physically dangerous and or verbally attacking but almost any of my actions will be imposing to the child because it is not ok to hit and my view as a parent to not "allow" this kind of behavior in my household will prevail I do not have to live in an abusive or violent environment and it is my job as a parent to teach and define and example that --- but my view is being imposed on the children- and that can sound very scary- but it is how I view it - we are all either going to be allowing an angry side of ourselves and our children to impose it's will or another more thoughtful side-- sure we have to pay attention to unhappiness and unfairness and the daily struggle for understanding but there are different ways to do it-
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#188 of 188 Old 03-25-2007, 06:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by loraxc View Post
I think this is an absolutely brilliant point, and it underlines why we have chosen not to use punishment. I really do think that most of what punishment teaches kids is that bad things happen IF you get caught.
That makes me think of that Tool song
"if consequences dictate your course of action, then it doesn't matter what's right. It's only wrong if you get caught."
And its so true. lol.

Becky, partner to Teague, SAHM to Keagan (7yo), Jonah (2yo)
 

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