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#61 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 02:50 AM
 
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I think it is good that so many posts on this thread encourage everyone to be open-minded. That being said I can relate a lot to the op. I agree with you, and have experienced some of the same things around my friends and family. I really believe each mama does her best...but I do feel that CIO, not truly interacting with their kids, TOO MUCH TV, spanking and such isn't fair to the child or family as a whole. And I don't care for defining what it means to be ap or nfl. For me it all goes together and falls under the big idea that all living creatures are special and need to be treated with respect, compassion, love, and understanding. People all over our world, our children, animals, the forests. Parenting in a gentle and respectful way for me describes what you do and not what your friend does. I think that is fine to write about and you certainly didn't offend me.
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#62 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 03:20 AM
 
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And I'm not out in the country here in Idaho, I'm in the most urban area in the state. Oh well.
First of all, having lived in a tiny town in the Pacific Northwest, I would like to dispel the myth that we rural-dwellers must not be crunchy. Second of all... okay... now I love Idaho as much as the next woman but I don't think Boise exactly counts as an urban haven. Though it is a lovely city.

Wendi, I love the drooling smiley.

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#63 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 08:12 AM
 
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I don't think the spirit of the OP was misunderstood. It's one thing to post about parenting practices that you think are detrimental i.e. "too much television" or "giving in to children's tantrums". But that's not what the OP said. She framed it as "AP" versus "mainstream" parenting and inferred that the former produces well-behaved kids and the latter produces badly-behaved kids. Besides the fact that this is simply not true (as a look at this forum clearly shows) it is offensive to parents who consider themselves fairly "mainstream" with some "AP" in the mix. "Mainstream" kids can and do grow up very attached to their parents.

So to the OP, if you are still reading: I'm sure you meant no harm or offense :-). I get that you feel passionate about your choices and are aggreived at what you saw at your friend's house. But maybe in the future you could stick to the particular parenting practices you observed rather than putting labels on them. Labels are tricky things because, as this discussion shows, real life usually doesn't fit into neat labels.
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#64 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 08:30 AM
 
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in regards to mainstream parenting...

one should never be so open minded that thier brain falls out

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#65 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 01:38 PM
 
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: Is this MDC? Just checking.

Amy, mommy to Ava, 6, Gavin, 4, Lila, 2, and Baby #4 due in early November! joy.gif
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#66 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 02:09 PM
 
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FYI!
Posts like this one and a few others ie. WOHM VS SAHM posts that repeatedly keep coming up make newbies uncomfortable (well at least this newbie) and paranoid to share. I'm new and really interested in learning but sometimes I find that these threads are just too negative and make me not want to read....therefore I may miss something that is actually valuable.
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#67 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 02:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by InDaPhunk View Post
I tend to be judgemental because I like to be right (or at least think that I'm right)....all the time . However, I don't really find this an endearing quality in myself, so whenever I find myself being judgemental- even in my private thoughts- I remind myself that parenting is just about the hardest job in the world and the last thing that we need- especially us moms- is to waste time judging each other for the choices we make and the way we parent. It's hard for me to do sometimes because like I said, I love to be right , but I despise being judged so I try not to do it to others. I'm not going to lie...sometimes it's hard. What can I say, I'm a work in progress .

Don't forget that we sisters gotta stick together . It's The Man that likes to keep us on different teams .
Wow. I was going to write my own post...and then I read this one.
A big "yeah that!"
I can't say it any better.

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#68 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 02:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by StrugglingMomX's2 View Post
FYI!
Posts like this one and a few others ie. WOHM VS SAHM posts that repeatedly keep coming up make newbies uncomfortable (well at least this newbie) and paranoid to share. I'm new and really interested in learning but sometimes I find that these threads are just too negative and make me not want to read....therefore I may miss something that is actually valuable.
Because you think the OP was negative or because people get so snarky in the threads?
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#69 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 02:47 PM
 
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The OP and if I'm totally honest maybe even her thread title bugged me a bit. I know I can be sensitive as I'm still trying to find my parenting groove, yes even after 15 yes LOL, but I just don't feel welcome when I read posts like that....again maybe because it's just that I'm new and still learning.
Cheers!
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#70 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 03:00 PM
 
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I have no idea where you live but it is a bubble I would like to live in too. I live in one of the most liberal states in the US, in one of the most liberal towns in said state. Everything in that list except for spanking is 100% mainstream to the 100th degree.
I also live in a place that is exactly like MaryCeleste's and is on the opposite coast. I, too, get so confused when people are comparing AP vs mainstream-because AP is mainstream here-mainstream is a good thing here And I do not live in a bubble Also the area is very diverse: people from all walks of life, religions, cultures, different educations and political affiliations.
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#71 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 03:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MaryCeleste View Post
  • Spanking is not mainstream. (This applies 100x for the Pearls, et al.)
  • Formula feeding is not mainstream.
  • Scheduled feeding is not mainstream.
  • Giving solids before 6 months is not mainstream.
  • CIO in the first few months is not mainstream.
  • Putting baby to sleep in a separate room from the earliest days is not mainstream.
tried to include MaryCeleste's quote in my post above-didn't work! This is what I was referring to...
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#72 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 03:04 PM
 
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Something like 90% of American parents use spanking, so I'd say gd is most definitely not mainstream.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#73 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 03:21 PM
 
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Yes, it's MDC.

I guess why I originally posted here was not because I don't feel the plight of the OP- I see her point, that she can really see a difference between her kids, and the kids raised by people with a different style of parenting than her.

But checklists of slogans, artificial dichotomies, and labels are not natural, either. As someone who believes in natural living but who doesn't accept labels, I don't like the idea of dividing the world of mommies into two camps: those who follow AP like a religion, and those who don't ("mainstream", even though many people who aren't AP are not mainstream at all).

For me, there is a spectrum of behavior for nearly every choice we are faced with, be it breastfeeding (CLW? supplementing? using donated milk because of psychological issues?) or birth (homebirth? UC? hospital?) or co-sleeping (in the middle, at arm's reach, or in a cradle), or something else. All Muslims circumcise: does that mean that no Muslim family can be attached and NFL? I don't believe that. There are a lot of things that change from situation to situation.

To think that it's these activities that make an attached family, rather than the overall attitude of acceptance and deep-seated love, is a very superficial take on attachment and what the authors of the AP movement meant.

The same goes for natural family living.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#74 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 04:05 PM
 
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Something like 90% of American parents use spanking, so I'd say gd is most definitely not mainstream.
I guess I should consider myself lucky to live in an area where GD IS mainstream.
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#75 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 04:14 PM
 
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Something like 90% of American parents use spanking, so I'd say gd is most definitely not mainstream.
Do you have a citation for this? That doesn't sound realistic to me.
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#76 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 09:26 PM
 
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First of all, having lived in a tiny town in the Pacific Northwest, I would like to dispel the myth that we rural-dwellers must not be crunchy. Second of all... okay... now I love Idaho as much as the next woman but I don't think Boise exactly counts as an urban haven. Though it is a lovely city.

Wendi, I love the drooling smiley.
Yeah....I thought about that when I went to bed last night (the part about rural-dwellers not being cruchy). I have a step-sister in the middle of nowhere, Montana and she's as crunchy as they come.

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#77 of 117 Old 05-01-2007, 09:42 PM
 
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To think that it's these activities that make an attached family, rather than the overall attitude of acceptance and deep-seated love, is a very superficial take on attachment and what the authors of the AP movement meant.
This bears repeating.

I do most of the AP "checklist" of things, but I don't assume for a minute that this means I am more attached to my kid than a parent who doesn't. I do them because they feel right for me and my kid, period. My mother didn't breastfeed, babywear, cosleep, or GD, and we have always been extremely attached because she always loved me and did everything she could for me that she knew how.
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#78 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 02:54 AM
 
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My mother didn't breastfeed, babywear, cosleep, or GD, and we have always been extremely attached because she always loved me and did everything she could for me that she knew how.
Yeah, that.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
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#79 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 03:16 AM
 
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For me, there is a spectrum of behavior for nearly every choice we are faced with, be it breastfeeding (CLW? supplementing? using donated milk because of psychological issues?) or birth (homebirth? UC? hospital?) or co-sleeping (in the middle, at arm's reach, or in a cradle), or something else. All Muslims circumcise: does that mean that no Muslim family can be attached and NFL? I don't believe that. There are a lot of things that change from situation to situation.

To think that it's these activities that make an attached family, rather than the overall attitude of acceptance and deep-seated love, is a very superficial take on attachment and what the authors of the AP movement meant.
Nicely put.
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#80 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 08:17 AM
 
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okay so....*rubs her aching head* are you all really implying that no matter how we parent our children it doesnt make a difference at all?

and if thats true then why would you put so much effort into something you dont think matters?

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#81 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 08:50 AM
 
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Layla- is that really what you see in the posts above?

You don't see people advocate for a certain level of tolerance, based on the fact that we have not lived others' lives; for an understanding that in life, there are shades of gray; that you can't divide the whole world into two camps, those of AP ("good") and "mainstream" ("bad")? All you can see in those posts is that "how we parent doesn't matter at all"?

I think that is a very simplistic way to look at things. It might be easy to categorize the world into "good" (the way "we" do it, AP or whatever, you're AP if you check off all these things on the list) and "bad" (if you're not with us, AP, then you must be "mainstream", viz. "bad") but it's simply not accurate.

The beef that some of us have with the post was not that there was a judgement call on particular actions, but that it was framed as a criticism of "mainstream", which was also sort of conflated into meaning, "everything which is not AP and which would result in a poorly raised child".

I have very strong opinions on what is best for my baby and for other people's babies. But since I cannot imagine every single situation that every other person could face, I try to withhold judgement unless I can see very clearly that the action violates the most important principles- like if it is not loving, if it is not done with the best intentions, if it is done not for the sake of the child but out of selfishness, etc.

I also don't like labels and checklists. For me, a good night's sleep is more than one in which me and baby are in the same bed. A good meal for baby is more than one in which she has a boob in her mouth. Attachment comes from more than just seven or eight activities that are advocated by one or two doctors in a couple of books. It's much deeper and more compex (and yet, simpler) than that.

I will repeat that I'm not opposed to some judgement, what I don't like is the attitude that it's AP or nothing, that there's only one way to respond to every situation, and that it always works. I just think that's not true.

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#82 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 08:52 AM
 
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I don't think the spirit of the OP was misunderstood. It's one thing to post about parenting practices that you think are detrimental i.e. "too much television" or "giving in to children's tantrums". But that's not what the OP said. She framed it as "AP" versus "mainstream" parenting and inferred that the former produces well-behaved kids and the latter produces badly-behaved kids. Besides the fact that this is simply not true (as a look at this forum clearly shows) it is offensive to parents who consider themselves fairly "mainstream" with some "AP" in the mix. "Mainstream" kids can and do grow up very attached to their parents.

So to the OP, if you are still reading: I'm sure you meant no harm or offense :-). I get that you feel passionate about your choices and are aggreived at what you saw at your friend's house. But maybe in the future you could stick to the particular parenting practices you observed rather than putting labels on them. Labels are tricky things because, as this discussion shows, real life usually doesn't fit into neat labels.

I find it impossible to say this does that.. with regards to BEHAVIOUR. One of my closest friends was raised hardcore AP, and she really was a little brat at times.. and as a young adult was very selfish and had a lot of um, not so desirable qualities. I love her.. but it's true. I had zero attachment to my parents, was physically and emotionally abused and was extremely "well behaved" oh my parents should be so proud for raising such a good kid. : It was just me. Oh wait, maybe being afraid of being screamed at or hit. I didn't ever want to be "bad" though, it just didn't interest me. Kids are so different.. the most we can do is practice what we feel is best and love them and love them and love them... oh yeah, and make sure they know they're loved and accepted.
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#83 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 09:13 AM
 
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*Izobelle said it better than I could*

Layla, I put effort into determining what I think is the best way to parent because I want to find methods that work for her and me. But, with the exception of bad or abusive parenting, I believe that (most) parents who do things differently have the same desires, they just came to different conclusions than I. Babywearing or playpen, breast or bottle, cloth diaper or disposables, vax or non, taking away priveleges or consensual living.... Loving parents can do all of these. You might disagree with my choices in these areas or I might disagree with yours, but the bottom line is we don't know each other's situations the way we know our own, and as long as our intentions are loving the chances are all of our kids will grow up happy. So what's the point of judging?

Judging bad or abusive parenting, sure. But the OP was vilifying "mainstream parenting" which is really broad, essentially undefinable, and includes a lot of good moms including my own. So I don't see the point.
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#84 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 09:15 AM
 
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okay so....*rubs her aching head* are you all really implying that no matter how we parent our children it doesnt make a difference at all?

and if thats true then why would you put so much effort into something you dont think matters?
the biggest thing for me is that I ap because I believe it's the right thing for my kids. I don't believe that ap is outcome-based. I don't for a minute believe that ap OR crunchy parenting guarantees perfectly behaved kids. It doesn't IME.

I also don't see such a big difference between "ap" and "mainstream" parenting as kids get older. I see many "mainstream" parents who may not have breastfeed very long but use gentle discipline and are very loving and attached.

I also have seen parents who ap'ed and were crunchy who are not gentle with their kids and TBH are not nice to their kids.

I think ap is the best way to meet babies needs BUT as kids get older their needs change. Many parents may not ap babies but they still use ap practices as their kids get older.
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#85 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 09:21 AM
 
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Layla- is that really what you see in the posts above?

You don't see people advocate for a certain level of tolerance, based on the fact that we have not lived others' lives; for an understanding that in life, there are shades of gray; that you can't divide the whole world into two camps, those of AP ("good") and "mainstream" ("bad")? All you can see in those posts is that "how we parent doesn't matter at all"?
well if people have issue with a post called 'ap/mainstream = big difference' uh yeah...it does look that way....

maybe if you replaced the words 'good' and 'bad' with 'optimal' and 'not optimal' ill say you totally can divide things into those groups. well if you add a neutral too... but most of mainstream parenting isnt neutral. most of it isnt optimal. people can get thier panties in a tangle over that if they want to but i just dont get how its commonplace on mdc to defend mainstream practices.

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#86 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 09:25 AM
 
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I think izobelle might be my internet hero.

Poxybat, I parent the way I do because it feels good.
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#87 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 09:29 AM
 
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Judging bad or abusive parenting, sure. But the OP was vilifying "mainstream parenting" which is really broad, essentially undefinable, and includes a lot of good moms including my own. So I don't see the point.
so is the issue that mainstream parents are feeling attacked?
because that makes this thread make sense...

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#88 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 09:32 AM
 
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Poxybat, I parent the way I do because it feels good.
so do i, and i firmly believe that if youre secure in your parenting you wont care what anyone else thinks.

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#89 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 09:38 AM
 
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Are you suggesting I do? I was simply answering your question upthread.
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#90 of 117 Old 05-02-2007, 09:49 AM
 
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I loathe dichotomies of all kinds, believing the distinctions to be, if not false, then inadequate ways of describing life in the real world.

That said, occasionally, I will use the terms, ap or mainstream, to make a distinction that makes sense in a certain context. For example, the other day I talked about my friend who nurses her niece and the types of reactions that she gets from other mothers. I would say that, for the most part, it is the more mainstream mothers who express discomfort with the idea. I am loathe to assume, however, that anyone can be put into a 'parenting category' since many values and techniques overlap. Although, I must also say that it is comforting to find someone who is familiar with the concept of "attachment parenting" because in some places, allies are few and far between.
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