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#1 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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But why does everyone seem to hate supernanny on this board???? I know next to nothing about this woman except shes known for making the naughty spot famous!

Is there's a PM facility? If so I would appreciate being sent any responses privately because I get the impression this might be a HOT topic and I don't want to be thought to be stirring the pot. Thanks, and sorry if this is a forbidden topic!
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#2 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:12 PM
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I am actually not one who 'hates' "Supernanny". I disagree with many of her theories, to be sure. But I think that she often does a lot of good in extremely troubled families. She speaks strongly against hitting children, and she encourages parents to connect with and be close to their children, and speak TO them and not AT them.


She's not an AP proponent, I don't think, but she speaks against child hitting, and speaks FOR respect, and I appreciate that.
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#3 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:14 PM
 
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Ummm.... "naughty" spot?

A child does not need to be told they're naughty or bad.

-Angela
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#4 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:15 PM
 
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LOL at this post! Welcome to MDC.

I don't hate Supernanny, at least not most of her. I think she sets really good respectful boundaries with some seriously out of control children.

However, it pains me to see her eroding attachment relationships between parents and children. She makes children put themselves to bed, give up nursing, give up suckies and attachment rituals with parents. This IMO is horrible, and her downfall. Attachment relationships are the glue in families IMO, they provide a context for the boundary setting she does and help children feel loved, included, and part of a circle of people who love each other.
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#5 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:16 PM
 
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Ummm.... "naughty" spot?

A child does not need to be told they're naughty or bad.

-Angela
That is British culture though. I know some Brits, my girlie's dad is British and so is my ex long term girlfriend. I don't think "Naughty Spot" in Britain is as hardcore as we would imagine, with children being shamed and berated. It's more their equivalent of a time out.
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#6 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:18 PM
 
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That is British culture though. I know some Brits, my girlie's dad is British and so is my ex long term girlfriend. I don't think "Naughty Spot" in Britain is as hardcore as we would imagine, with children being shamed and berated. It's more their equivalent of a time out.
I agree that it is probably very common place. But further shaming or not aside, I still have a problem telling a child they're naughty. They tend to live up to expectations of that sort....

-Angela
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#7 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:21 PM
 
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I agree that it is probably very common place. But further shaming or not aside, I still have a problem telling a child they're naughty. They tend to live up to expectations of that sort....

-Angela
Mebbe. I think a lot can be conveyed in tone though. I think there is a difference between telling a child they *are* naughty, vs. saying a behaviour is naughty, so when you do it you go to the naughty spot.

I wouldn't personally use it, but I don't find it so outrageously offensive as many American ppl on here seem to.
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#8 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:46 PM
 
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I haven't seen it much, but she didn't really bother me. The kids were usually um, challenging, and so I don't think reward charts and time out stools are a bad thing when you are really in dire straits. I only dislike them when they are an immediate default for any disobedience. As far as I can see she never yells and is obviously against spanking.

The one thing I didn't like was how I thought she was on a couple occasions patronizing to the parents. Was it supernanny or nanny 911 where she put down the mom for nursing the toddler? I didn't actually see it though- just the promos which were edited to be way controversial.
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#9 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:52 PM
 
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i love the show supernanny! i do not agree w/everything she does, but i doubt i *could* agree w/anyone on *every little thing* ykwim?
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#10 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 12:56 PM
 
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I can tell you why I don't like these "reality" shows in general (includes home deco/reno).

Even though we all know they are fantasy, I think they still give the impression that problems can be solved in a weekend, or a week. Supernanny comes in and she changes three things and suddenly the family is blissfully happy! In 48 hours you can redo a kitchen!

The thing is that it really is fantasy. Real change, real parenting, real home ownership even, is more complicated than that - full of ups and downs and quite often without such clear cut solutions or easy fixes. I think when we fill our minds with these shows we often start to judge ourselves or others overly harshly. And then we feel out of control and we are not free to really apply our energy to - fully living, which is complex, full of starts and stops and steps forwards and backwards, and messy. MESSY I tell you!

That's my answer.

~ Mum to Emily, March 12-16 2004, Noah, born Aug 2005, Liam, born January 2011, and wife to Carl since 1994. ~
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#11 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That is British culture though. I know some Brits, my girlie's dad is British and so is my ex long term girlfriend. I don't think "Naughty Spot" in Britain is as hardcore as we would imagine, with children being shamed and berated. It's more their equivalent of a time out.

Thats about right. And actually hardly ANY of the parents I know do Naughty Spot OR "time out". So its not THAT widespread. Also its not really about telling the child THEY are naughty.... its about telling them their ACTION was nuaghty, and that actions have a consequence. For instance; "You had to sit on the naughty step because you did X" not, you had to sit on the naughty step because YOU are naughty. There is emphasis on ezplaining WHAT they did and WHY they shouldnt have done it and they are encouraged to apologize for it.
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#12 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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However, it pains me to see her eroding attachment relationships between parents and children. She makes children put themselves to bed, give up nursing, give up suckies and attachment rituals with parents. This IMO is horrible, and her downfall. Attachment relationships are the glue in families IMO, they provide a context for the boundary setting she does and help children feel loved, included, and part of a circle of people who love each other.

I'm curious... in what ways does she do this specifically?
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#13 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 01:23 PM
 
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Actually I'll take naughty over "bad" any day, which I here all the time here in the U.S. People say that young kids can't distinguish between "that action was bad" and "you are bad." Fair enough, but I think the tone used will also convey the former, and I think naughty is semantically more tied into behavior. Bad is just plain bad to the bone!
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#14 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 01:29 PM
 
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I'm curious... in what ways does she do this specifically?
Weaning a young toddler off a bottle. Halting co-sleeping. Having a mama wean a toddler from nursing. Stopping long bedtime rituals that involve the parents reading to the children, laying down with them, talking with them about their day.

In many shows, both the parents *and* children are upset by these things and actively protest them. But Supernanny holds firm and everyone gives in.

This is a theme with the Supernanny shows, not a one-off.
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#15 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I can tell you why I don't like these "reality" shows in general (includes home deco/reno).

Even though we all know they are fantasy, I think they still give the impression that problems can be solved in a weekend, or a week. Supernanny comes in and she changes three things and suddenly the family is blissfully happy! In 48 hours you can redo a kitchen!
I don't like reality tv shows either, partly for this reason. And that is precisely why I didn't really know much about S/nanny!!

What I did see when I saw a bit of her on tv was the way she put down the parents.... I don't like the format of shows lkike that. Desperate family/couple on the brink of despair, along comes the pro and tells them they are doing it all wrong on national TV, a little bot of common sense and one week later et voila!!!!! Erm, yeah ok. I kind of think its a bit sick that some people enjoy watching that kind of put down to be honest, it puts me right off, so I probably end up missing out on good info...
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#16 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Weaning a young toddler off a bottle. Halting co-sleeping. Having a mama wean a toddler from nursing. Stopping long bedtime rituals that involve the parents reading to the children, laying down with them, talking with them about their day.

In many shows, both the parents *and* children are upset by these things and actively protest them. But Supernanny holds firm and everyone gives in.

This is a theme with the Supernanny shows, not a one-off.

Our parenting culture is sooooo different over here! 'i find none of those changes particularly shocking or disturbing. i suspect they were harder for the parents to implement than the kids tho.
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#17 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 01:37 PM
 
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i suspect they were harder for the parents to implement than the kids tho.
I vehemently disagree. I think we tell ourselves that to make ourselves feel better. Watch the crying, protesting, confused children who don't understand why suddenly their attachment rituals are being denied, and tell me it is easy for them.

It's not. At least the adults have some philosophy to cling to. And they are controlling the changes. And they are... well, the adults. Not dependent children.
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#18 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I vehemently disagree. I think we tell ourselves that to make ourselves feel better. Watch the crying, protesting, confused children who don't understand why suddenly their attachment rituals are being denied, and tell me it is easy for them.

It's not. At least the adults have some philosophy to cling to. And they are controlling the changes. And they are... well, the adults. Not dependent children.
You could be right.

I don't know though, I think if you are looking at the kids like miniature adults I believe this is a mistaken view. If an adult was doing those kinds of things you would imagine they were suffering terrible bereavement. However, I genuinely don't think children doing those things are suffering that level of distress. They simply don't HAVE the philosophy to cling to, the ability to rationalise or control or express their emotions as effectively as adults.

I distinctly remember the first time I was left at playgroup I thought I would NEVER see my mum again. I wailed and wailed and threw the biggest tantrum of my life. Do you know within 5 minutes I was making hand prints and painting with the rest of the children, all tears gone. No it WASN'T easy. No it wasn't nice. But life isn't! At what point do you learn that? IMO kids can be more reslilient and adaptable than many people give them credit for.
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#19 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 02:04 PM
 
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There was one episode that I hated. I think you all know which one I'm talking about, where she told a mother not to nurse her 14months old on demand especially when those two were not connected as is.
In general, there are some situations where Supernanny does good, but in general she is not pro AP.
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#20 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 02:06 PM
 
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If an adult was doing those kinds of things you would imagine they were suffering terrible bereavement. However, I genuinely don't think children doing those things are suffering that level of distress. They simply don't HAVE the philosophy to cling to, the ability to rationalise or control or express their emotions as effectively as adults.
What does this mean? Children still have emotions. They still have feelings. Attachment relationships are essential to children's emotional growth and development. This is an attachment parenting site, that belief is kind of core to the ideology here.

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No it WASN'T easy. No it wasn't nice. But life isn't! At what point do you learn that? IMO kids can be more reslilient and adaptable than many people give them credit for.
I don't believe that "Well life is not fair" is an appropriate rationalization for disrespectful parenting strategies that undermine attachment relationships.

I don't think "life isn't nice" is a factual statement. And I don't think it is parents' responsibility to teach that subjective lesson. In many ways, life is what you make it, kwim? And the things we cannot control are... well, things we cannot control.

I don't go banging my head into walls because life includes pain. And I do not harm my children in the name of "well life isn't nice anyway, children are resillient." There is enough for them to bounce back from that we cannot control. Let's not impose more trauma.
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#21 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 02:06 PM
 
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I'm in the UK and I think our parenting culture is very similar to the mums in the US. However, we're talking mainstream, popular parenting approaches, which you're not going to find here. I find those changes very disturbing because I can imagine the effect they'd have on my children if I enforced them. Gently weaning off nursing or co-sleeping or bottles or whatever is one thing (though I wouldn't do it personally), but forcing it in the short period of time that supernanny does it is cruel imo. So the kids will live, yes. They'll be fine, debatable.

I think that people in the UK are on the whole just as interested in forcing independence before they children are ready. I think children are adaptable because we all have to be to survive, but it doesn't mean it doesn't affect them somehow. It might not be immediately apparent, but for a child for whom bf or co-sleeping or a bottle or having mum or day lay down with them to help them fall asleep is important, there will be an effect eventually.
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#22 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 02:07 PM
 
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There was one episode that I hated. I think you all know which one I'm talking about, where she told a mother not to nurse her 14months old on demand especially when those two were not connected as is.
In general, there are some situations where Supernanny does good, but in general she is not pro AP.
:

Sure, kid survive all sorts of things and turn out pretty okay. Doesn't make those things right.

-Angela
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#23 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 02:19 PM
 
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What does this mean? Children still have emotions. They still have feelings. Attachment relationships are essential to children's emotional growth and development. This is an attachment parenting site, that belief is kind of core to the ideology here.



I don't believe that "Well life is not fair" is an appropriate rationalization for disrespectful parenting strategies that undermine attachment relationships.

I don't think "life isn't nice" is a factual statement. And I don't think it is parents' responsibility to teach that subjective lesson. In many ways, life is what you make it, kwim? And the things we cannot control are... well, things we cannot control.

I don't go banging my head into walls because life includes pain. And I do not harm my children in the name of "well life isn't nice anyway, children are resillient." There is enough for them to bounce back from that we cannot control. Let's not impose more trauma.


-Angela
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#24 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 02:25 PM
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Our parenting culture is sooooo different over here! 'i find none of those changes particularly shocking or disturbing. i suspect they were harder for the parents to implement than the kids tho.
I could not disagree more.
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#25 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think you misunderstand the essence of my post which was that when kids make a scene I really believe that its not as bad as it looks! That's not to say they don't have feelings. Just that they can't control or express themselves as we do. However I'm not going back and picking apart the post to explain myself more thoroughly because I don't enjoy banging my head against a brick wall either, which is what I suspect this thread would turn into!

I do agree though that I wouldnt be happy "pulling the plaster off quick" either. Gradually does it IMO. I'm no fan of Ferber!!

Life isn't NICE is NOT what I meant - life isn't EASY - I should read back what I type more carefully. I'm not saying make your kids life difficult on purpose to teach them this. I'm saying that we can overcomplicate things and worry too much. If nothing else, kids pick up on this. I'm speculating that if the parents on the tv show were more relaxed and confident about the change in the household, the kids would follow suit. But I admit it IS just specualtion.
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#26 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 03:04 PM
 
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I've only seen it once or twice, and I agree with the pp who criticized the "weekend fix-it" mentality. I also disagree vehemently with the non-cosleeping, non-nursing, CIO-esque approach she seems to favor. On the other hand, the situations that they televise are designed to be out of control, over the top, and a couple of the things I saw that I liked were her emphasis on consistency and her get-down-at-their-level approach to talking with kids.
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#27 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 03:05 PM
 
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You could be right.

I don't know though, I think if you are looking at the kids like miniature adults I believe this is a mistaken view. If an adult was doing those kinds of things you would imagine they were suffering terrible bereavement. However, I genuinely don't think children doing those things are suffering that level of distress. They simply don't HAVE the philosophy to cling to, the ability to rationalise or control or express their emotions as effectively as adults.

I distinctly remember the first time I was left at playgroup I thought I would NEVER see my mum again. I wailed and wailed and threw the biggest tantrum of my life. Do you know within 5 minutes I was making hand prints and painting with the rest of the children, all tears gone. No it WASN'T easy. No it wasn't nice. But life isn't! At what point do you learn that? IMO kids can be more reslilient and adaptable than many people give them credit for.
Manfa...I TOTALLY agree...which is why I like the Supernanny. While I may not agree with every single thing she does...I find it the same way with this board. (no offense people) so I take the information I like and what works for me and continue on.
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#28 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't go banging my head into walls because life includes pain. And I do not harm my children in the name of "well life isn't nice anyway, children are resillient." There is enough for them to bounce back from that we cannot control. Let's not impose more trauma.

I'm not sure I like the subtle implication that I would do this (emboldened). I'm starting to get the feeling that the general air on this thread is turning to "Look here comes a "mainstream parenter"! Close ranks!" I'd like to know what "mainstream parenting" is so that I'm not nervous about posting in future for fear of being flamed.

WRT "trauma" - that is what I am questioning - whether or not it is truly traumatic for the children to undergo these changes. I'm not saying it ISN'T as I am not sure myself. I'm sitting on the fence and I could go either way. I'm saying I'm questioning it. It's definately given me food for thought anyway.
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#29 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 03:12 PM
 
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I'm not sure I like the subtle implication that I would do this (emboldened). I'm starting to get the feeling that the general air on this thread is turning to "Look here comes a "mainstream parenter"! Close ranks!" I'd like to know what "mainstream parenting" is so that I'm not nervous about posting in future for fear of being flamed.
It is not about mainstream as a non-specific trigger word. I haven't seen that word used at all, and I am often at odds with GDers on this forum, so I am not closing ranks against you.

I am referring very concretely to you stating that you think Supernanny getting families to desert attachment rituals is not a big deal, because children are not like adults and life is not nice. Or life is not easy. Which is pretty much what you said, verbatim, in this thread.

I disagree with you about the importance of attachment relationships for children. If you are sensing disagreement from most people here, well that is probably because you are at an attachment parenting site. If nothing else, most people here are probably going to be in general agreement about this issue.
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#30 of 105 Old 06-10-2007, 03:16 PM
 
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Aside from the criticisms of her approach that I agree with, I think what bothers me about this show is that it takes issues of childcare/discipline in the lives of real people and edits it down to 22 or 45 (depending on the length of the show...something that I am not certain of) minutes and creates a product whose sole function is entertainment. It's a product, made to sell and act as a vehicle to see other products. I find it exploitative (in the larger, cultural sense) and not at all useful.

This is not the same thing as interviewing an expert on television or having families come on and discuss their issues. And I am not a proponent of daytime talk, but I find, from a structural perspective, Dr. Phil, Oprah, and others to be far less problematic.


Could you imagine an AP reality show?
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