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Am I the only one who spanks her dog but not her kid?

5K views 85 replies 53 participants last post by  aussiemum 
#1 ·
Since becoming a parent, I became a whole lot less patient with our two family dogs. And a lot less attentive too, which has been discussed on other threads.

I'm a lifetime animal freak and our dogs are part of our family. Sleep on our bed, act like one of the kids, the whole thing. But I noticed that since dd arrived, I'm so much more short tempered with them. Somewhere along the way I realized that when I'm especially mad there've been a couple of times that I've swatted their haunches.

Like yesterday one dog jumped up and got a sandwich I'd just made, carried it into the living room and ate it. I used to be able to leave my food on the coffee table at eye level while I left the room to go answer the phone, and when I came back they'd be sitting there staring at it and it would be untouched. Now they act up a lot more, I think as a reaction to the relative neglect since dd came.

Anyway I ran over to get the sandwich remains, scolded the dog and swatted him once on the haunches. More just because of my anger than because of any delusion that it taught the dog anything. Dd's nanny was there and I embarrassedly commented that I must be the only mother she knew who spanked her dog but didn't allow her kids to be spanked.

She laughed and said "yeah, and I also noticed that dd pretty much does what you ask her to and the dogs don't"


Another testimony to the effectiveness of spanking
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#52 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by blessed View Post

I said that your response fostered feelings of resentment and defensiveness, which had a counter effect to my natural sense of remorse and to my desire to do better. Which is true. You made it more likely that I would seek to justify my actions and less likely that I would seek to modify them.

As I posted I simply asked a direct question because I was unclear from your post if this experience had made you decide to stop hitting the dogs. It was a choice to spin that into other people are countering your motivation.
 
#53 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy View Post
...In my opinion this is what you should do: Reprimand the dog with a push (physical relocation to allow you access to YOUR food or a snap, like a warning bite)...
My apologies for jumping in here, Shaggy, I am genuinely curious: Are you saying literally use human teeth on a dog? Seriously, I don't get the part about a "snap" or warning bite...

Earlier you said something like "dogs aren't humans" and I totally agree with that. However, it is equally true that humans are not dogs.

I certainly don't have all the answers...I'm just not sure that humans should attempt to discipline dogs as another dog would... It seems dangerous.

I'm thinking there has to be a better answer, something more effective and balanced. IMO hitting is extreme and so is acting like a dog.

With respect,
Kungfu_barbi
 
#54 ·
I don't think SD was saying to bite your dog.


But you just grip the dog with your hand like it's a mouth. Have you watched the Dog Whisperer? That would explain what he does.

No, dogs aren't people and people aren't dogs, but dogs think of us as their pack, and as such, healthy pack dynamics are crucial to their well being.
 
#55 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Roar View Post
As I posted I simply asked a direct question because I was unclear from your post if this experience had made you decide to stop hitting the dogs. It was a choice to spin that into other people are countering your motivation.
Oh I see. Just a direct question because you weren't clear.

My mistake then.
 
#57 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by becoming View Post
I couldn't believe how much less patient I became with animals after my first child was born! I used to consider myself a "dog person," and now I'm not at all.

Yeah, I don't think it's great for your child to see you spanking the dogs, but man, the sandwich incident would have really gotten to me, too!
Oh mannnn, you just said exactly EXACTLY how I feel... I loooooved my dog, now I reallllly dislike my dog. My poor, poor unloved dog, he is just a source of constant guilt for me now.
 
#58 ·
I have to admit I agree with SD on so many points. Dogs think differently than humans. The first thing that popped in my head with the OP is, what is the behavior in wolf packs? I have a dear friend who's a wolf biologist whom I can always ask. They really do nip and snap at each other and seem to like the clarity of roles. I just don't see a flick to the haunches at an appropriate time as hitting.

Now, as for tying this into GD, I learned an amazing lesson years ago with my DH's grandparents. We were dating and met them and their beloved Aussie Heelers for the first time. They would speak to the dogs in such soft soft voices. The dogs ears would perk up and nothing else existed but their words. If one begged too much, the scolding would be at normal speaking volume. It was so educational to see that loudness and yelling weren't necessary. That was all I knew growing up (both the dogs and me at a lesser extent)

So I got my first cat shortly after that and tried it out. Wow. It's been great practice now as I embark into my next real challenge, calmly redirecting my children, who are probably less resilent against my mistakes. I at least have the habits in place of starting at a lower level so the escalation isn't so harsh.
 
#59 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by elizawill View Post
when i got my dog, i trained her without ever needing to spank her. she is 6 years old now and wonderfully behaved. she always has responded to the tone of my voice when i give a command, and i trained her with lots of praise. before i became a SAHM i was a social worker and i worked with the alzheimer's population. my dog's job where i worked was to serve as pet therapy. she roamed freely visiting residents, and never misbehaved while unsupervised. obviously all breeds are very different, so perhaps my dog's behavior has more to do with demeanor than training. i dunno. but i do know she is part of my family, and although she is not equal to my kids....i do go out of my way to treat her with love, respect, and kindness. and i don't think that's weird at all.
Some dogs are just lovely dogs, especially with the right owner.

We have two dogs who are like night and day. Both are labs. One very intelligent one, smart enough to try and manipulate us. Her, we can use pretty much only voice commands. Initially we only wanted to use positive reinforcement in training her, but she hated the gentle leader and would rip it off. And we weren't allowed to take the happy happy obedience classes without it, so we went a more traditional route that balance both negative and positive feedback.

Then we have a big lug without an original thought in his head. We spent seven months trying to teach him down. Seven months. We even made him bacon as a reward! Our other dog took an hour to learn the basics.

I think he was a year before he understood the phrase 'let's go outside' and it was two years before he realized he could nudge a door open (and this was with us actively coaching him). We spent this past summer teaching him to swim. Yes, we had to teach a lab how to swim.

He is just s-l-o-w, sort of like a blunt object but with fur. Sometimes he needs physical cues because he is just so not getting it. We are not being abusive or disrespectful, nor are we actually seeking to cause pain, we are trying to communicate with him and he needs this kind of input from us in order to understand what we expect. Plus, he is 100lbs of exuberance with no restraint behind it and I am 8 months pregnant. Sometimes he is a danger to me--in fact he's going to the vet tomorrow and I don't dare go by myself.

Anyway, I could go on, but the point is every dog is different.

Oh and once the baby comes, our big lug is going to be in his den unless there are two adults present to manage him. He's not malicious, he's very sweet, but dangerously so. Based on how long his learning curve has been in the past, we figure we'll take it slow on the baby rules.

V
 
#60 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by MadysonMom View Post
Thats what made me realize I did not want my DD to see anyone or anthing getting hit. I dont want her to think its ok for her to hit the dogs when she gets older. I need to practice the same self control with the dogs that I do with her.
I think this is an excellent, and overlooked, point. I don't believe in striking dogs and never did so pre-kid. But now post-kid, I always try to remember that actions speak louder than words and 2 little eyes watch and learn from every single thing I do. I think it's a very confusing message for children to see an animal being physically corrected or punished and to then be told "be gentle with puppy."

Not to say that any of this applies to your situation, Blessed. My dog definitely spends time-outs in her crate when I'm on the verge of doing something we'll both regret. Dogs are wonderful animals who can also drive you straight over the edge!
 
#61 ·
I haven't read the rest of the posts beyond blessed's reply but....

I guess I don't understand the point of your OP. You are saying that now you see that spanking your dogs doesn't make sense--since you now are so anti-spanking your dd.

So, the next logical question is are you going to stop?

How that is snarky and unhelpful is beyond me. If you want help on how to stop, then cool but your OP didn't touch on that. It was joking story about a realization you came to??

FWIW, I had never even heard of people "spanking" their dogs until recently. I'm a huge animal rights activist and I don't see how hitting animals is any more acceptable than hitting humans. It seems absurd and I'm happy you are thinking of stopping.

Kylix
 
#62 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by captain crunchy View Post
In all this talk about the "natural" behaviors of dogs -- newsflash: dogs like food.
I read SD's post to say that it wasn't natural to treat dogs like kids (have them in bed, etc). Maybe I missed it, but I didn't think he said anything about hitting dogs (that it was ok)?

ftr, I'm not arguing with you CC. I agree with you. I'm appalled at dog hitting, and spent hours trying to find articles to convince my aunt that hitting her australian shepherd wasn't the way to get her to stop nipping
:

eta- not that I haven't, in the past, hit one of my dogs out of anger. So I'm not passing judgement on Blessed at all!
But not since ds was old enough to know what was going on. We're dog sitting a puppy for two days, and I noticed that ds doesn't even consider hitting the pup when he does something "wrong." That just reinforced that not hitting is the way to go.
 
#63 ·
At least it is not the other way around....some people treat their animals better than their children or other people, etc.

I feel your priorities are in the right order. The only thing is, the dog does not really "understand" a spanking or yelling. From what I gather it just is a sound or a touch and it means absolutely nothing to them.

The way to get better behavior, because the dogs may be trying to reestablish their position now that the daughter is here. Whenever anything changes the training has to be reinforced again...(i.e. the sandwich incident...they were already trained against that but now they have to be reestablished again....just like testing boundaries,etc).

I did not read all the posts, but I understand your dilemna because I had my children and the then the dogs had to be trained along with them, etc. It is a bigger responsibility with children and dogs....a big job.

Everything will smooth out soon. And the dogs are going to be quite understanding too..LOL
 
#64 ·
This is probably the most interesting post to me so far. I think the reason the line gets blurred between 'dog training' and 'gentle discipline' is that, for those of us with dogs, it IS blurred. Our kids and our animals just interact so intimately and we want to keep everyone safe and happy.

For myself, I've never really believed the Alpha stuff. It just never made sense. I found a gentle-discipline-type obedience class for my dog and have been AMAZED at the similarities between what we were taught there and anything I have learned about GD and AP. I actually feel that a lot of the goals of raising children and dogs are very similar. The biggest lesson for me was, NEVER cause your dog discomfort or physical pain. You are trying to foster attachment between you and your dog and build your relationship. You want him to WANT to come to you. Physical pain causes fear, and fear sets the stage for aggression. I feel like dog training is going through a metamorphosis away from teaching-through-pain, just as, hopefully, parenting is. But I guess you do research and choose to go down the path that makes sense to you.

I don't think it's just about spanking pets, either. My husband and I were in the regular habit of pushing our cat off the table (certainly not violently, but still), or moving the dog out of the way with our foot. Our daughter very quickly picked up on this and started pushing the animals with all the restraint of a 2yo. We didn't even think of what we were doing as pushing. Not to mention yelling at them. We don't do any of these things anymore. The more gentle we are with our animals, the more gentle she is. Now if we speak to the animals in a "mean voice" she tells us, "hey, that wasn't a very nice voice you used." She has taught us. I could go on about what our trainer told us about the flaws in the 'pack theory,' but that really is pet forum stuff. My interest is sparked by this debate, though, so I'm going to spend some time in that forum now.
 
#65 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy View Post
I am not trying to argue, I don't think hitting dogs is right, but I do feel communicating on their level is apropriate. Dogs like order and a chain of command MORE than they like food, seriously.

Me neither. I know someone who talks about how spanking children is abuse, etc, yet she allows her dh to hit their 4 lb yorkie when she has an accident (which, imo is THEIR fault if they do not watch her properly). I think its abuse as well. I am shocked at some of the replies I've read...
I have not seen where spanking/hitting a dog was effective in correcting the behavior. I sure would love to see sources to were there has been a positive outcome from hitting a dog. I rescued a sibe 2 yrs ago and it hurt to see her cower when we tried to pet her. it took a while before she realized that while with us , she would not be hit, but she did soon warm up and turned out to be a great dog.

Abuse is abuse.Whether its on a child or dog.

My 2 cents, spend at will.
 
#66 ·
this thread is really interesting to me because i really really want a dog. i've never been a dog person, until i met this 2yo border collie/chow/new-fin retriever mix and fell in love with him! he's seriously one of my best friends (i say i'm going to see my "dog friend" and everyone says, "you mean your friend's dog?" and i'm like, "no, but i'm friends with his human, too."
)

this dog is amazing. he's the best behaved dog I've ever seen, and I didn't realize that I could have such a close relationship with someone of a different species. he's still got a lot of puppy in him and gets into stuff/gets mischievous, but when i talk to him he almost always listens and behaves accordingly. i've only seen his owner hit him once, and that was when he bit my 7yo brother (i think he was trying ther "herd" my brother, he didn't bite him hard and it wasn't out of anger. i don't know that hitting him for it was the best thing, but i think it just scared us all and his owner didn't know what to do, kwim?)

anyway, i know that this is the kind of relationship i want to have with any future dog. i think i'm going to have to do A LOT of research about breeds/pack order before i get one (oh, and wait until my kids are older bc i just wouldn't have the energy right now!) ... but this thread brings up a lot of very interesting points about training/compassion/gentleness/the kinds of relationships we want in our families -- even the animal members.

i think what it probably comes down to with dogs, just like with kids, is understanding their development and treating them accordingly.

anyway, thanks to everyone (especially SD) for your insight! i'd love to hear even more experience from those who have BTDT!

Oh, and OP --
: it's great that you're aware enough of your family situation to see this going on! most people i know aren't even aware of how dynamics in the family are affecting themselves or their kids, let alone how changing dynamics affect the pets, and thus how that affects the whole family, kwim? ... does that make sense?
 
#67 ·
Yet another vote for - me too!

Ever since baby I am no longer such a dog person.

I was even going to write this huge before and after baby essay cursing those who give away the dog after baby is born.. but now I soooo get it.

No patience for dogs now - trying to get better...

I didn't see this thread and started a new one, very similar
 
#68 ·
Thank you all for your insights and expereinces here...we had the somewhat bad idea to get a puppy when DD was 6 months old, a cow dog at that. (We live in the country and plan to get stock animals, but we don't have any yet to entertain her). It has been rather difficult at times, and has been a lot of management. Even though it has always been this way for the dog, she still puts on the guilt when I ignore her for the afternoon because I can't deal with her and have enough on my plate with DD.

I have hit the dog on several occassions,
: and get frustrated when the dog won't listen to my voice commands. She is a smart dog, and knows the commands, but sometimes won't listen. She's a sentient thinking being, not a robot, but it ruffles my feathers sometimes! A baby comes with stress enoough! WE are getting better with the training, and developing a good rapport with the dog, but we still need some work on temper management, and the dog needs more training which takes time. It is good practice for us, and I don't think I have hit the dog in a long time now. DD is getting older and understands a lot, and Ihave observed her "telling" the dog to do things, even though she isn't sayinig the words. I hope I can foster a non-violent way of interacting with the dog for her, and to me, this means my example counts, a lot.

FWIW, my cat was a special critter to me before baby, and now I could practically care less. Having a baby really does change things! I have gotten really angry with the cats when they wake the baby, or step on her while she's sleeping! I just want to kick them out! But I have to remind myself that they are part of the family too, and that I took responsibility for them.

Anyhow, thanks for this thread, it never occurred to me to bring it to MDC and it has been really helpful for me.
 
#69 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by carfreemama View Post
This is probably the most interesting post to me so far. I think the reason the line gets blurred between 'dog training' and 'gentle discipline' is that, for those of us with dogs, it IS blurred. Our kids and our animals just interact so intimately and we want to keep everyone safe and happy.

For myself, I've never really believed the Alpha stuff. It just never made sense. I found a gentle-discipline-type obedience class for my dog and have been AMAZED at the similarities between what we were taught there and anything I have learned about GD and AP. I actually feel that a lot of the goals of raising children and dogs are very similar. The biggest lesson for me was, NEVER cause your dog discomfort or physical pain. You are trying to foster attachment between you and your dog and build your relationship. You want him to WANT to come to you. Physical pain causes fear, and fear sets the stage for aggression. I feel like dog training is going through a metamorphosis away from teaching-through-pain, just as, hopefully, parenting is. But I guess you do research and choose to go down the path that makes sense to you.

I don't think it's just about spanking pets, either. My husband and I were in the regular habit of pushing our cat off the table (certainly not violently, but still), or moving the dog out of the way with our foot. Our daughter very quickly picked up on this and started pushing the animals with all the restraint of a 2yo. We didn't even think of what we were doing as pushing. Not to mention yelling at them. We don't do any of these things anymore. The more gentle we are with our animals, the more gentle she is. Now if we speak to the animals in a "mean voice" she tells us, "hey, that wasn't a very nice voice you used." She has taught us. I could go on about what our trainer told us about the flaws in the 'pack theory,' but that really is pet forum stuff. My interest is sparked by this debate, though, so I'm going to spend some time in that forum now.
I'm with you and your trainer. I find 'animals' and children to be remarkably similar.
 
#70 ·
Well, to answer your question, I am a no, and DH is a yes. Unfortunately, in the past, whenever the dog did ANYthing (like, stood in front of the TV and didn't move) dh would just go off on him and throw him out onto the balcony (the dog's space), but we've had long talks about how A) if you keep hitting the dog, he's going to start biting DS and B) the TV is not more important than a living being (and we also moved the TV up higher). So I think we're finally getting through to him. He has a lot of rage issues (his mama, love her to death, was one of those that would give five million warnings before flying off the handle at one stupid little thing) and I'm trying to come up with creative ways to channel his anger that don't involve the dog, even if (for now) it is involving doors and walls.

 
#71 ·
I've been following this whole thread and feel I need to add another post, kind of to clarify my original one. It seems that there are two different dynamics happening in this discussion. One is how much less time and attention so many of us have to give our pets, particularly our dogs and the other one, if it's ever OK to spank or use physical correction with animals and how that affects our children.

On my previous post I voted for a new model of dog training that goes against the alpha-dog-pack-thing that seems to be the dominant paradigm for training out there. I feel even more in the minority with my rejection of that model than I do with my alternative parenting style.

BUT I so, so empathize with the no-time-for-my-dog and "what happened to my relationships with my animals since I had kids" thing that everyone seems to identify with. This has been by far the biggest challenge for me and my transition into parenthood. It has caused huge conflict with my partner and unending stress, since I cannot leave my dog alone with my child. He's a 'good dog,' but I do not trust him not to bite if my daughter pulls his tail, although she doesn't do that now, or steps on him accidentally. I adopted him from the shelter as an adult and no amount of training will ever convince me he wouldn't snap at her if she hurt him by accident.

One of my solutions in the early days was to hire a dog walker once a week. I did this in desperation to give my husband, who had to assume most of the responsibility for dog-walking while I was nursing, a break. I paid for it out of my own allowance, twice a week. We could not afford it. But it did take the edge off the tension and made my husband feel like his needs were being considered. Now I barter for this, giving the dog-walker bread and food to take home once a week instead of cash. She loves it. She's also a trainer and behaviourist who has really helped us keep our dog.

I feel so bad that so many people give up on their pets when they have kids. It's so, so overwhelming. My only thought has been to try and set up some sort of support system for new parents in our local area...some sort of free dog-walking service to help them through the adjustment period and to just give them someone to talk to who's been there. Now that things are FINALLY settling down here, and my dog is good with other dogs, I am thinking of approaching our SPCA to try and get something like this going with other dog- lovers. One big problem I found was that people seemed to be either 'dog people,' who made me feel guilty for even discussing rehoming our dog for snapping/biting, or 'kid people,' who told me I was insane for even considering keeping the dog. We still have him and I am still nervous for our child. I keep training, try to give the dog lots of exercise and constantly, constantly supervise and separate.
 
#72 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by carfreemama View Post
One big problem I found was that people seemed to be either 'dog people,' who made me feel guilty for even discussing rehoming our dog for snapping/biting, or 'kid people,' who told me I was insane for even considering keeping the dog.
I love my dog. I'm a "dog person"--but I wouldn't consider keeping a dog I didn't trust with my children.
 
#74 ·
I always swore that I would never hit my dog ... but I have a few times. I don't make it a habit or anything. I am much, much worse about screaming at the dog which is just dumb bc the dog is pretty much deaf.

Its very frustrating lately - my house always smells no matter how much I vacumn or mop, the dog always stinks bc she needs a bath, the groomer costs an arm and a leg, walking the dog w/my DD is not enjoyable, my dog is a huge pain in the @ss and when I am in another part of the house or outside and she can't go there she will fuss, whine and slobber.

I am jealous of my neighbors who gave their dog to a new home after their child was born bc they couldn't deal with the dog and the kid. My dog was an adult when I got her, she was 7, and now is almost 14 and there is no way I could ever give her up no matter how annoying she gets - one bc I do love her and so does my DD and two bc I think it would be very cruel at this age to make her go to a new home.

~ Maggie
 
#75 ·
when dd was born, our cat suddenly went from being a much beloved, much doted on member of the family, to an annoying creature who we mostly directed such things as "Max, Get OUT of here!" at.
We actually moved and made the difficult decision to put him up for adoption, to a great home. I swear, I never would have guessed the relief I felt! I miss him, but I don't think I'm going to want another pet for a long time!
 
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