Is this too harsh of a punishment? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 02:40 PM
 
LilyGrace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
The commonality for me is that the parents have taken GD to mean a prohibition on consequences, being assertive, or enforcing limits with the children. There is a terrible imbalance currently among a segment of my particular IRL social circle, and the children are horrid to be around. They are not bad children, of course. But their behaviour is currently just awful. It makes things unpleasant for the parents and greatly limits what the parents can do with their children, or how enjoyable a time they can have.

I personally am not willing to be limited in such a way by my child's behaviour. More assertive parenting, with love AND limits, is working very, very well for us, and I am glad of it.

I agree with you. I am very assertive when it comes to boundaries and respect. I refuse to be walked over by anyone- including my kids.

That said, I still feel....off about the way this was handled. I need to know that at that moment, we are doing everything possible to make it right again - the responsibility on me to teach and reinforce proper behaviour through whatever means necessary, from "You may NOT hit me!" and stepping away from the child after buckling her for a breather, to low talking, empathising with the child, focusing on other activities. And understanding that yes, this is a phase, and we will get through it. It is neither socially acceptable nor personally acceptable behaviour, but it is a learning process and using that information to control my patience.
Imposing a consequence a week later sounds just as ineffective as the singsongy no-no's. A 4yo still needs the immediate consequence and the parents can focus on the long term preventive measures like - putting a goodbye plan into place, taking a short rest period between school and the playdate, role playing..or even rethinking certain activities and making a lifestyle change.
LilyGrace is offline  
#122 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 02:44 PM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubfam View Post
ITA with Thismama that lots of parents who GD think that means let your kids do whatever they want and just follow behind them picking up the pieces.

Kids don't learn anything that way.

I have a friend IRL whose child just gets worse with each passing day. I don't like Owen to play with this kid anymore because he picks up so many TERRIBLE things from this kid. This kid will see a cat and all he wants to do is kick and chase it. He sees a butterfly and he wants to crush i. He tells my son to hit me with things, and he can get really violent.

His parents are just way to Wishy Washy about all of it, and this kid cannot figure out where his boundaries are. So he is constantly testing.

We are basically at a point where the friendship is unravelling because I cannot stand to be around this child. And how do you tell someone that?

thismama is pointing out a truth in GD that I am sure we have all seen at one time or another. I think of it as passive/permissive parenting (something I read here long ago...) and it turns perfectly good kids into people that I don't want to be around.

thismama I am sorry that you are dealing with this from so many different friends right now. It can really end up being a deal breaker.
Yeah, it's really hard, isn't it? I really relate to that. I mean, I love my friends. The one with the child whose behaviour is really out of control right now, she is a good friend of mine. And yeah, how do you tell that to somebody, that you are not enjoying their child right now? And I mean, I'm not. I like *him* underneath it all, but being around him is so unpleasant right now! And to a lesser extent several of the children in a group of GD/AP mamas I hang with.

I am also finding it hard on my child. Because as these other children run through gardens and trample plants while their parents feebly call to them from the edges, my child is at the edge of the garden because I have told her no. Or while they run screaming disturbing a rally, mine is the silent one by my side.

It's not fair.

Right now I'm hanging with my mama friends on their own, minimizing the time with their children, and avoiding situations where I am responsible or partially responsible for caring for the children. Which sucks, it means I am somewhat ostracized from what should be my social group of AP mama friends.

This happened before with another mama friend. I really love her too, but out of control child and totally ineffective parenting response. I can't deal with it, man.
thismama is offline  
#123 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 02:54 PM
 
TampaMommyof2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Land O Lakes, Florida
Posts: 22
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
{Quote by: nextcommercial: She always got something at the store. Usually a cookie, or a new pacifier, or a box of Dixie cups (weird Dixie cup obsession for a while) }

Hey that's funny....my daughter has that same obsession!!! I give rewards for good behavior at the store/shopping and my daughter would rather have a box of Dixie Cup's than a Cookie. She loves to walk around the house with the cups full of little toys...beaded necklaces, little rubber animals..etc. Some times I'll be looking for one of my hair scrunchies ( she likes to wear them on her wrest like bracelets) and will find them hiding inside the cups (along with some of her brothers hot wheel cars)!! LOL....sometimes it doesn't take much to make them happy!
TampaMommyof2 is offline  
#124 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 03:42 PM
 
swampangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,013
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby View Post
The pizza party was not a week later. The pizza party was two days later. A day and a half, actually, since the incident happened on Wednesday night, and the party was on Friday afternoon. DD remembered the tantrum, and was able to make the connection between tantrum and pizza party.

It is over, we have discussed it, thank you. I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.
lab, I just wanted to say that I think your post (although you endured some mighty blows and I'm so sorry you've been upset by it...I would have been, too) really illustrates how resilient and forgiving and human we all are. You know, this parenting stuff is not a science. There are no hard and fast rules. You do things that feel like the right thing in the moment and reflect later. I'm sorry you feel you didn't get much support here. I just wanted to say that I think you handled it very well based on how things have turned out and that's what really matters. We all do things we're not sure about in parenting and we all make mistakes. Our kids don't need us to be perfect. They need to see that we are human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post


But you know what LAB, you gotta take this with a grain of salt, at the same time. Lots of people adore criticizing each other's parenting over the internet. It is a bit ironic that this kind of mobbing happens so frequently in the GD forum, and that the "you're being too harsh" messages seemingly cannot be delivered without shaming, attacking, and overly harsh judgment of the mama.

It's kind of like posting in the Pets forum, though, kwim? Drama shall abound. And unfortunately when you put "harsh" and "punishment" in a thread title here, this is a pretty predictable result, IMO regardless of the actual content of the OP.

Feel better soon! Don't take internet judgment too seriously, mama. It is easy to do, I know because I did it a few times myself in this forum, but you have to consider where you are posting and the fact that people really don't have a clue what is going on in your family, they are reacting to (in this case, some trigger) words on the net.
You always say what I mean to say! I agree that it's so odd that on a GD forum some feel it's fine to be very harsh with one another. It might be good to remember that modeling is much more powerful to our children than most other forms of discipline/guidance. Yes, they can't read what we're writing, but I'm sure it comes across in other ways if this kind of judgment and lack of compassion screams across this forum so often. Modeling a gentle and compassionate way of being in the world is what I strive for...parenting can often make you strive to be a better person.

Another really puzzling thing to me as that on mainstream boards the women seem so much kinder to one another...but of course their parenting practices aren't always in line with mine. Here, I find it surprising when there is a pleasant dialogue going on...unless there is a topic of bashing someone else. It's a trip.
swampangel is offline  
#125 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 03:44 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: raising the revolution
Posts: 4,883
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't agree with punishments of any kind, but I don't agree with "permissive" parenting either as it relates to how many people perceive it.

I think there is a huge distinction between *deliberate* parenting and permissive, 'I don't care what you do just please dear God let me never, ever have to get into any kind of confrontation or see anything less on your face than a wide grin.' Furthermore, there is a huge difference between setting the intention to parent consensually and sort of the "I really don't care what you do as long as you don't get killed" parenting I see sometimes. Unfortunately, many times the two get muddled and lumped together and it does sort of irk me and I sometimes feel a bit defensive. I work my @ss off parenting my daughter, it is fun *work* mostly, but it is deliberate, intentional work with research, instinct, respect, and "results" to support it (results meaning, our family runs very well, we are all happy, and my daughter is almost always the "best behaved" for lack of a better term, kid in the room).

...and yet, she has never and will never be punished.... so I don't get how that could be? Please don't say, oh you were just lucky. My daughter isn't the highest of *high needs* but she wasn't just a buddha baby who was zen from birth either....

Just my $.02
captain crunchy is offline  
#126 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 03:49 PM
 
shayinme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: land of lobster and lighthouses
Posts: 5,272
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby View Post
The pizza party was not a week later. The pizza party was two days later. A day and a half, actually, since the incident happened on Wednesday night, and the party was on Friday afternoon. DD remembered the tantrum, and was able to make the connection between tantrum and pizza party.

It is over, we have discussed it, thank you. I spent last night in tears on the phone over some of the replies here. Can we please drop it? I think there have been enough replies now, and I'm just kind of over the whole "let's make littleaugustbaby feel like a shitty mother" thing. To the people who were constructive and kind, who gave me some good advice, thank you. To the rest of you...just put me on ignore please.


Mothering since 1992...its one of the many hats I wear.
shayinme is offline  
#127 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 03:49 PM
 
NaomiMcC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 609
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby View Post
....Fast forward to this afternoon. Someone in playgroup is hosting a pizza party. We canceled our RSVP because I told DD no playgroup for a week, and I feel like I have to follow through.

...The teacher commented that it seemed kind of harsh, and I was like, well, I set out the rules for her, and she broke them, and I have to be consistent and stick to the punishment.

I really don't think that making her stay home from a playgroup event after tantrums at two other playgroup events is really all that harsh. It seems as close to natural consequences as I could get -- if you can't behave at playgroup, then you can't go to playgroup..
I haven't read through the entire thread but I'm gonna guess I'm going against some of the grain when I say: I think it's fine.

Rules were broken and consequences followed. That's how kids learn. And you're right: if you can't behave at playgroup, you don't go. Simple as that.

NaomiMcC is offline  
#128 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 03:51 PM
 
blsilva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: California
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For us, discipline is not so much about consequences or punishments as it is about teaching, mostly through communication. We are not permissive, and do not allow our kids to just do whatever they want, but we do see things a little differently.

Homeschooling mom of 2 rambunctious, loving, spectacular boys, wife to an incredible man who has been my best friend on this journey <3

 

 

blsilva is offline  
#129 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 03:53 PM
 
sunnmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: surrounded by love
Posts: 6,447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
Hey, LAB

You don’t have to answer this but I wonder if part of what’s going on with you is that you found a solution which, on the surface, some of your IRL friends and some of you on-line friends feel is not developmentally appropriate and something that, perhaps, even you don’t agree with on a philosophical level that turns out to work well for you and your child.

I’ve been there and it’s a different way to look at parenting and discipline. It takes a special kind of confidence and it takes knowing your child (and yourself) like only you can. I think that this is a learning experience that many, if not most, of us have to go through at some point.

What helps me is to acknowledge that this discrepancy is there. And maybe it isn’t there for you but I do think it’s an important thing to know how to do as a parent. Not every choice we make is going to fit neatly into our idea of how we think things should be and that’s OK.

The best advice I ever got from a mama was when I asked her if she thought her choice was the “right” thing to do and she answered, “I don’t think it was the right thing to do but I think it was and OK thing to do.”

Hugs to you!!!
I needed to read this right about now. Gosh, I love your posts ICM!

LAB, I am sorry this thread went down the tubes for you. Does it make you feel any better to know that it is helping me sort out some of my parenting philosophies at the moment?

And you sound like a fantastic mama. Don't let a GD thread get you down. We all do the best we can. We all aspire to do better. You are doing a great job :
sunnmama is offline  
#130 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 04:01 PM
 
Kathryn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Colorado
Posts: 6,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm not going to touch on *anything* in this thread except for one thing I haven't seen anyone talk about. You don't need to get anything drilled into your head by me.
Anyway, the one thing that stuck out to me was you explaining to the teacher she was being punished. IMO, that's humiliating for children, especially if you explain in front of them. I think maybe you should just say she can't make the party.

Mom to Dakota (6), Coy, (4), Max, (4), Lily (4), and Auri (June 19th 2010)!
Visit Lily's site at www.caringbridge.org/visit/lilymathis1
Kathryn is offline  
#131 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 04:07 PM
 
yarngoddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Placerville,CA~best place for me!~
Posts: 1,808
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree with your punishment of DC. Throwing a kicking, hitting, screaming, try to run away at the park kind of fit isn't safe for the child. I would, however, have reminded my DC before school that there would be no Pizza party today, because of the fit that was thrown at the park. I don't want other people to be the first to tell my dc something important. I think that a 4 year old can comprehend that 'Because I did this... Then THIS will happen. I don't think that a whole 7 days of no play group is appropriate though. I personally would have said no party because this isn't safe.

I think that you need to talk to DC calmly away from the moment of the temper tantrum, and get DC to express her feelings about the whole situation. Learn the triggers of your DC, what makes her get to that point. Did you do more in that day than you normally do. Try to stop before she reaches her breaking point and tell her that you are leaving now, because "We don't want you to get upset and out of controll like last time. Remember how that made you feel, I don't want you to feel like that again." or something like that.

Married to Michael and Mother of Jake 9, Jillianne 7, Jensen 5, Jacen 4. I've got severe osteoporosis, a fractured hip and chronic pain-so please be patient with me! Pagan,Crocheter,Reader,Homeschooler- that's me in a nutshell.

yarngoddess is offline  
#132 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 04:11 PM
 
yarngoddess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Placerville,CA~best place for me!~
Posts: 1,808
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I also wanted to say that telling the teacher what was happening was, IMO out of line. I would thank the teacher for her concern, and reassure her that you will handle the situation and leave. I think that this is between you and the DC. Like I said, you need (sorry not being bossy) to explain to DC, not to the teacher, friend, friend's mom, or playgroup. I also think that if you say "No play group for a week" then you have to mean NO playgroup for a week. Pick your battles and win them, regardless of what others think.

Married to Michael and Mother of Jake 9, Jillianne 7, Jensen 5, Jacen 4. I've got severe osteoporosis, a fractured hip and chronic pain-so please be patient with me! Pagan,Crocheter,Reader,Homeschooler- that's me in a nutshell.

yarngoddess is offline  
#133 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 04:28 PM
 
PikkuMyy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: hmmm
Posts: 7,370
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I've only read the OP but as someone with an elementary degree and who works in early intervention, I feel that a week was not appropriate at all. At that age, connecting her behavior from a week ago to a consequence today is not a skill she will have that will help her to behave better at the next playgroup.

Early intervention specialist and parent consultant since 2002.
PikkuMyy is offline  
#134 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 04:46 PM
 
maryjane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
(((hugs))) to the OP. I am sorry you are feeling that you're been "ganged up on".

I wanted to add a few words on the type of tantrum you experienced. My DS is also 4 (4 and 3 months) and we are all too familiar with them.

Quote:
Thank you for recognizing that. This was not the type of a meltdown where she was crying over a box of popsicles at the grocery store. This went way beyond that to the point where she was a danger to herself and others. Just getting her strapped into the carseat (which was a necessity at that point so that she did not injure herself) took 2-3 minutes because I could not physically restrain her. It was not in any way possible for me to talk through *anything* with her at that point because she was so completely over the edge. For normal tantrums, talking through it is our normal strategy.
I don't even consider the crying jags a "tantrum". For those, I usually say (sometimes more patiently than others), "A, I can't help you when I can't understand what you're saying. When you've calmed down, I will be happy to help you come up with a solution." Or something like that. I never thought I would ignore a tantrum, but after I repeat that mantra to him, I usually ignore his crying as much as possible. IME, he just has to let it out and then he is ready to get back to business.

OTOH, when A has one of those massive melt-downs and is completely out of control, I know that he has lost the ability to hear me, let alone listen to me. I wish he didn't experience that -- it's not good for him, and I know it's not good for me either (I imagine my BP shoots through the roof!). BUT, he does, and when it happens, the *last* thing I want to do is punish or threaten to punish, as that just "seals the deal" so to speak. If he wasn't already over-the-edge, then my threatening to/or actually punishing is the last straw for him. When we are in the peak of one of those total meltdowns, I just do what I have to do to get us through it safely. When it's LONG over, then we can talk about what happened and process it. But while it's going on? Just ride the storm, and take cover for everyone involved.

I'm far from a super GDer and I lose my patience waaaay more than I'd ever admit here, BUT my approach to temper tantrums is something I've had a lot of time/opportunities to reflect upon. I know your daughter isn't my son, but I hope my experience might be a bit helpful as you continue to reflect on things.
maryjane is offline  
#135 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 05:03 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: raising the revolution
Posts: 4,883
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Pick your battles and win them, regardless of what others think.
Wowzers. This is not how some parents on this forum (myself included) approach things AT ALL with their children. It sets up an extremely adversarial relationship imo.
captain crunchy is offline  
#136 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 05:19 PM
 
blsilva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: California
Posts: 2,088
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy View Post
Wowzers. This is not how some parents on this forum (myself included) approach things AT ALL with their children. It sets up an extremely adversarial relationship imo.
ITA. I use to think this way, and it set us up for a lot of power struggles and serious connection problems. And it did not improve behavior.

OP, if you want to check into a different aproach, you might find the book Easy to love, Difficult to Discipline by Beckyt Bailey useful.

Homeschooling mom of 2 rambunctious, loving, spectacular boys, wife to an incredible man who has been my best friend on this journey <3

 

 

blsilva is offline  
#137 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 07:11 PM
 
DevaMajka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Burnaby, BC
Posts: 10,519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OP, I probably would have stopped going to playgroups for a while too, because I would know that *I* couldn't handle ds's actions. I would have *tried* to have done it in a "It's too stressful for me to go right now" type of way.
But it's definitely possible that something like "If you don't stop that right now, you're never going to another playgroup ever" would come out of my mouth. Imo, it's not going to make or break your whole relationship, kwim?

I have found that the best thing for ME to do to "improve ds's behavior", is to focus on connection. The more I do that, the better I react, and that has a positive effect on ds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I am also finding it hard on my child. Because as these other children run through gardens and trample plants while their parents feebly call to them from the edges, my child is at the edge of the garden because I have told her no. Or while they run screaming disturbing a rally, mine is the silent one by my side.
That's my ds too (the one standing by, not damaging things). We don't punish, but I am quite clear about what is ok and what isn't, and how ds's actions affect others.

Becky, partner to Teague, SAHM to Keagan (7yo), Jonah (2yo)
 

DevaMajka is offline  
#138 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 07:23 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,713
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post
I needed to read this right about now.
:

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#139 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 07:34 PM
 
swampangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,013
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We just had a very similar situation happen today...we were at a fair in a park with a lot of friends in the community...it was late, the baby was past his naptime and we were all ready for lunch. Bad setup already! We knew leaving would be hard because lately transitions have been quite difficult for my 4 1/2 yo ds.

Anyway, long story short it was ugly. We gave the two minute warning and when it was time to leave there was screaming and running and yelling and the works. He didn't hit either one of us but he had a very big meltdown. It didn't rile either me or dh which was good...we were prepared. I think this helps a lot.

When we got to the car, it was a struggle getting in but we just decided to give him the time he needed while we worked on staying calm. After saying that I was the "most terrible person on earth" (I really felt for him at this point because he was so angry and trying to really lay it on) he climbed into the front seat and cuddled and cried in my lap.

Afteward, he was fine...he talked about how he wanted to stay longer and asked why we had to leave. We talked about it and the fact that there will always be the time when we have to leave and it's so hard. I said to him that this is something we'll need to work on together but I really understand how hard it is.

But, what I realized is that this is one of those situations where he's really uncomfortable and it's my job to help him do these transitions more easily. At one point he said "how can I change your mind the next time so that we don't have to go?". It's clear that he has had some mixed messages from us about transitions because they have been difficult and we haven't always known how to handle it...sometimes we stay a bit longer and sometimes we can't. This has been really confusing to someone who is having trouble with this. SO, we decided that we need to help him accept that when we give him the 2 minute warning that's his time to prepare to leave. It might involve some of this for a few times but this is one of those things where the adults need to make the decision.

So, to the OP I think you did just fine. I agree with Deva that probably owning the reason for not going to the playgroup might have fit better with what was going on for you. I would have made the same decision. Sometimes we have to bow out of stuff because it's just too much.

Anyway, you're not alone in this! Some kids don't do this and some of the posters here haven't reached this stage with their kids. I had a very easy time of it when my ds was 2 and 3...it was 3 1/2 on that became a bit more challenging!
swampangel is offline  
#140 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 07:37 PM
 
swampangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,013
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy View Post
Wowzers. This is not how some parents on this forum (myself included) approach things AT ALL with their children. It sets up an extremely adversarial relationship imo.
Again, it probably depends on the child. This wouldn't work with my kids but some kids might really need to know that when mom says xyz that's what it means.

A lot of what it comes down to, IMO, is how the child is experiencing the situation. For some kids, not to have a clear message and someone in charge is a very scary, out of control kind of feeling. If your kid isn't like this, great. But let's not make blanket statements about how things work for all human beings.
swampangel is offline  
#141 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 07:49 PM
lab
 
lab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: everywhere baby!
Posts: 3,652
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by swampangel View Post
Again, it probably depends on the child. This wouldn't work with my kids but some kids might really need to know that when mom says xyz that's what it means.

A lot of what it comes down to, IMO, is how the child is experiencing the situation. For some kids, not to have a clear message and someone in charge is a very scary, out of control kind of feeling. If your kid isn't like this, great. But let's not make blanket statements about how things work for all human beings.
:

Great point. Thanks for making it.

Also, I have three kids spaced three years apart. No way could I have gone through the fabulous 4's without 'punishment/consequence'.

Four is a much tougher age than 2. 2 was a great age for all three of my kids.

to you littleaugust baby - you are doing a SUPER job with your daughter.

Trying to do the right thing with three kids and a hubby. 
ds20, dd18, ds17
lab is offline  
#142 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 08:33 PM
 
savithny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,820
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy View Post
If the child is wanting to scream and hit me, then me honoring my boundaries and not allowing them to hit and scream at me is the only "consequence" they need imo. They have seen me modeling that I will not be hit or screamed at, they have seen that screaming at me or hitting me is not something I will consent to, they see me modeling self-control and my ability to stay calm when I feel frustrated (isn't that what OP is trying to teach? self control?) while also removing myself from a situation where I am not being respected (admittedly this is easier to do in a contained place that is not a park) -- entering in arbitrary consequences doesn't do a thing to model or teach or ensure that my kid won't tantrum.....but maybe doing the above may send a message of effective and healthy conflict resolution and respectful expression of emotion.
Can I ask (not snarkily at all) for examples, here?

How do you model that you will not be hit or screamed at? How, physically, in a public park where you cannot walk away safely, can you represent that to a screaming, flailing, tantrumming, lashing-out two or three or four year old?

Because a child in that out-of-control mode is not really in a place to hear you calmly say "This is my body and its not okay to hit." And you can't leave the situation, especially if you're there alone with the child and/or have more than one child with you.

Further, how do you remove yourself from the situation, even at home, without that timeout=abandonment thing going on?

These are all questions I struggled with greatly when my DS was the OPs age. After a very calm, nearly tantrum-free baby and toddlerhood, he started pitching megafits at age 3 and they continued for over a year. Nothing we tried would prevent them in certain circumstances, and he did *not* seem to learn from discussions afterwards... "in the moment" discussions were like ashes in the wind because he was not far beyond logic during them.

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

savithny is offline  
#143 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 09:09 PM
 
Mizelenius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In Lalaland
Posts: 7,046
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am not reading the pages of replies, but I think it is OK. However, I would tell her, "I should have not said it was a punishment. I think that there has been too much going on, and that's why we need to stay home."

In the future, (and I know this is hard), I'd do the same thing (take a break from the playgroups) but NOT tell DD why-- I would not want her to dwell on it, because it is not a punishment.

 2/02, 4/05, 2/07, 11/09, and EDD 12/25/11 wave.gif

 

 

Mizelenius is offline  
#144 of 204 Old 09-22-2007, 11:11 PM
 
joensally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,977
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
LAB, I've been in your shoes with this - a lot!

Here's what we do with our two who can both lose it.
1. The standard rule is that if you can't leave nicely, we won't come back. I work hard to ensure that they don't get to that meltdown place (see below), but if they do we don't go back next time. It's framed to them, before and calmly, that they're clearly not happy when they lose it, and it's hard on the people around them; that this is an area that is in their control and they do have control of their bodies, and that there are points when they can make the choices that will keep them from getting that upset. Then I try to be proactive as we go along and support them to understand and apply this.

2. We outline the order of the day...first this, second that...and give timelines as they seem old enough to get it.

3. We give a minimum of a 10 minute transition warning, and usually frame it as what we're doing next (we're leaving in 10 minutes, and when we get home we'll ----...ok, 5 minutes...).

4. When I see one of them starting to escalate or lose control, I connect and reflect ("hey, you're sure liking that game!" touch, touch - DS really likes firm rubbing up and down his back). If this doesn't work, I try to move them to another activity entirely.

5. If a meltdown occurs, we debrief when it's over. We talk about what maybe preceeded it, how they were feeling, and what strategies they could use next time. With DS, I really emphasize that he does have control - not blaming him, but empowering him to try to make better choices next time.

Mom to a teenager and a middle schooler.

joensally is offline  
#145 of 204 Old 09-23-2007, 01:30 AM
 
swampangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,013
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by joensally View Post
LAB, I've been in your shoes with this - a lot!

Here's what we do with our two who can both lose it.
1. The standard rule is that if you can't leave nicely, we won't come back. I work hard to ensure that they don't get to that meltdown place (see below), but if they do we don't go back next time. It's framed to them, before and calmly, that they're clearly not happy when they lose it, and it's hard on the people around them; that this is an area that is in their control and they do have control of their bodies, and that there are points when they can make the choices that will keep them from getting that upset. Then I try to be proactive as we go along and support them to understand and apply this.

2. We outline the order of the day...first this, second that...and give timelines as they seem old enough to get it.

3. We give a minimum of a 10 minute transition warning, and usually frame it as what we're doing next (we're leaving in 10 minutes, and when we get home we'll ----...ok, 5 minutes...).

4. When I see one of them starting to escalate or lose control, I connect and reflect ("hey, you're sure liking that game!" touch, touch - DS really likes firm rubbing up and down his back). If this doesn't work, I try to move them to another activity entirely.

5. If a meltdown occurs, we debrief when it's over. We talk about what maybe preceeded it, how they were feeling, and what strategies they could use next time. With DS, I really emphasize that he does have control - not blaming him, but empowering him to try to make better choices next time.
I love this. I especially like empowering them by believing in their ability to handle the disappointment of leaving. I think this is big.

A few months ago, we were dealing with my ds's very big reactions to not being able to borrow a toy or bike of a friend's who wouldn't share them. This was hard because I actually felt a bit irked that this kiddo wouldn't share his stuff. But that's life and we really tried to help ds see that he didn't have to let someone else's choices dictate his feelings and how the rest of his day went. I think it was really empowering to him...he could choose to say "bummer. well, i'll go play on the monkey bars and have a great time!".

I'm hoping some of this same principle will apply to the transitions of leaving a fun place when it's time. This is been a big challenge. Thanks for these great tips!
swampangel is offline  
#146 of 204 Old 09-23-2007, 05:13 AM
 
maryjane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by joensally View Post
5. If a meltdown occurs, we debrief when it's over. We talk about what maybe preceeded it, how they were feeling, and what strategies they could use next time. With DS, I really emphasize that he does have control - not blaming him, but empowering him to try to make better choices next time.
joensally -- can you give some specific examples of language for your "empowering him to try to make better choices next time." More specifics would help. I think I try to do this, but I don't notice that it makes *any* difference. Some languaging might help me, personally. Thanks!
maryjane is offline  
#147 of 204 Old 09-23-2007, 08:24 AM
 
mummy marja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 1,052
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ha, I can't believe I'm adding to this already way too long thread...

Several times the issue of consequences of a tantrum was questioned. Many feel that if you don't impose a consequence, that means there is none. I disagree. Kids don't like having tantrums. They don't feel good. I know they don't , because I've had them! Every single one of us wants to feel good. Feeling yucky is the consequence of the tantrum.

Marja: consensual-living, unschooling, piano-teaching, doula and mom to 3 creative, independent people:
DD, 8, DS, 6, and Baby DS born July 1, 2010 Married to DH for 10 years!
mummy marja is offline  
#148 of 204 Old 09-23-2007, 11:20 AM
 
dubfam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In My Urban Garden
Posts: 2,180
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
:

ITA with Mummy Marja
dubfam is offline  
#149 of 204 Old 09-23-2007, 11:20 AM
 
shayinme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: land of lobster and lighthouses
Posts: 5,272
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Can I ask (not snarkily at all) for examples, here?

How do you model that you will not be hit or screamed at? How, physically, in a public park where you cannot walk away safely, can you represent that to a screaming, flailing, tantrumming, lashing-out two or three or four year old?

Because a child in that out-of-control mode is not really in a place to hear you calmly say "This is my body and its not okay to hit." And you can't leave the situation, especially if you're there alone with the child and/or have more than one child with you.

Further, how do you remove yourself from the situation, even at home, without that timeout=abandonment thing going on?

These are all questions I struggled with greatly when my DS was the OPs age. After a very calm, nearly tantrum-free baby and toddlerhood, he started pitching megafits at age 3 and they continued for over a year. Nothing we tried would prevent them in certain circumstances, and he did *not* seem to learn from discussions afterwards... "in the moment" discussions were like ashes in the wind because he was not far beyond logic during them.
You know I have often wondered the same thing when people say these sorts of things. The only way I seem to be able to demonstrate that I will not tolerate being hit generally means I physically walk away or restrain my dd who is 2 and at the height of tantrum mode.

I have read this thread with interest because I can see the OP's situation being mine in a few years, even now she has these tantrums where she rages but while I so desperately would love advice ( and not suggestions to read XYZ book) I feel like on this board people spout off a lot of stuff but rarely does it translate into practical hands on advice IMO.

Shay

Mothering since 1992...its one of the many hats I wear.
shayinme is offline  
#150 of 204 Old 09-23-2007, 11:29 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: raising the revolution
Posts: 4,883
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This happened to us the other day in fact at the park -- so I have been there and I find it a tad annoying when I get condescending statements like "oh my kid was a joy at *whatever-your-kid's-age-is* ... just wait until *your-kid-is-my-kid's-age*. That way, (collective) you will always have a one up on the other person... as my kid will NEVER be your kid's age when your kid is their age... follow?

Anyway, I think the point is not that my child doesn't have tantrums, it is that I respond to them differently. Note, I didn't say "cuz I am a super mom and you suck" I said, I respond to them, differently. The way I respond gets a very effective and positive response from my dd... that is our experience.

YYMV, but for the record I will say that (imo) attempting to meet dd's needs, communicating that I am willing and wanting to work with her and am not her adversary, remembering to honor our relationship before honoring the "need to stick to things so I don't give in", remaining calm, focusing on just the two of us rather than worrying if other parents think I am doing a "good job" with her, remembering that she has been on this planet less time than the pair of underpants I am wearing has been, and also remembering that the only way to teach self control and self discipline is to show it toward her in moments she feels out of control goes so much further than losing it and punishing.

I have said it before and I will say it again... I firmly believe it: when children are out of control, they are not looking for us to control them, they are looking to us to control ourselves.

If we can't control ourselves and we are 20 some odd years older and allegedly more wiser, why in the world would we expect them to display such mature self discipline?
captain crunchy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off