Whats wrong with "no!"? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 11-14-2007, 05:36 PM
 
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I'm sorry I must be missing the context.

Was the post to legitimately ask why some people avoid using the word no with toddlers or to complain that someone who is dropping their young child off at daycare is being too nice to them?
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:40 PM
 
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I guess what I want to know is..........why isn't it ok to say no?
Mostly because I despise when my kids learn to use it back at me.

That sucks.
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by anothermama View Post
I see a lot of posts here where parents ask for help with a big issue.........hitting, biting, other violent behavior.......and the first response is "well why are they doing it". I'm sorry, but I don't CARE WHY my 3 year old hit another kid, it's no ok. We'll talk about it and share our feelings AFTER he knows that it's not ok. It seems like it's just making excuses for bad behavior to say "Well, she hit because she was really tired". So you're teaching your kid that it's ok to be violent to others if you have a good excuse to do so?
No.



Okay, let me elaborate. I think the reason to try to figure out why a little kid is hitting, biting or otherwise acting out is so that you can prevent those conditions from happening in the future. Otherwise, you can only say no when it happens again and again.

I think GD requires really clear limit setting (or giving information, or whatever) because otherwise it's not D., it's just G.

With a little one of three, I would interrupt the behavior first. It doesn't really matter whether you say "no," or "we don't hit" or "no hitting"--stopping the behavior in the moment is first.

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I get a little worried at the AP label at times because it just seems so often lately it's associate with "those parents"..........those parents you see in the mall or the grocery store who have a child abusing the crud out of them and all the while the parent is gently cooing "Whats wrong bunny? Mommy doesn't like it when you hit me with that spatula!". YKWIM?
Yes, I think people are confused about what it means to do gentle discipline.

I have a few thoughts on this. One of my son's key issues is that he's a little passive. He was telling me that another child at preschool bit him. I said, "And what did you say?" and he said, "I said ow."



That, my dears, is the wrong answer.

Barking "no! no!" isn't what we want, because we want vocabulary development. I think we react against that kind of command because we associate it with attempting to elicit mindless obedience. Still, we have to model sticking up for ourselves in all relationships, including in relationship with the children themselves. Children will not learn good things from their mothers acting like doormats.

I don't want my child to stand and whine at me, "I'm thirsty!" I want him to say, "May I please have a glass of juice?" and then to roll with whatever answer he gets. (and I generally say yes to polite requests.) So that's how I'm trying to act. I'm trying, in every relationship, to ask very politely and firmly for what I want. That includes saying, "I don't want you to bite me, that's not acceptable behavior."

Believe me, a three year old can learn to say "acceptable behavior."

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Old 11-14-2007, 06:13 PM
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CC, again I am in awe of your parenting! This was such a good post and why I aspire to be more like you. What a terrific example.
Well shucks, flattery will get you EVERYWHERE with me

Seriously thank you so much it is very humbling to know someone feels this way :
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:53 PM
 
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Mostly because I despise when my kids learn to use it back at me.

That sucks.
Well, IMO kids have every right to say no about the areas they control. As we have the right to say no about the areas we control. Boundaries and respect for yesses and nos are a good thing.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:09 PM
 
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Believe me, a three year old can learn to say "acceptable behavior."
Darn tootin' they can. A 3-year-old can even use "exasperated" appropriately. :

To the OP, I think there are two issues here, the issue of the sugary sweet "not my little angel baby cakes" syndrome where no matter what the child is doing it's met with sweety sweet requests....and as you said, and many comfirmed, that to most of us is not GD. Gentle, to most of us, does not equal milquetoast, which is probably why many hackles were up initially.

I've found that in my parenting, the more specific I am, the easier it is for my kids to understand what I want from them. So instead of "good", I use kind, polite, thoughtful, gentle, helpful - and instead of "bad" I use rude, bossy, rough, impolite. And I also fully agree with PP who said any time you can tell them what TO do it's far more effective than just telling them what not to do.

Having said that, you would probably hear things like, "No hitting! Be gentle with your brother." or, "Stop screaming. If you want help, just say help." in my household quite a bit these days. DD is rather, erm, spunky right now. : So while I don't think "No" and "Don't" in and of themselves are not evil words to be saying, I feel that there is a lot more you can say in a brief sentence that will help your kid to move past what they need to stop and get to what they should do instead.

re: parents who never want their kids to experience anything negative, I think there's 2 groups within that...the group that fits into the "not my little angel baby cakes" parents described above, who really aren't doing their kids any favors because they aren't guiding them into appropriate social behaviours...and then parents who are just as kind to their kids as they would be to any other person they knew, especially ones they love - who don't believe their kids are completely innocent all the time, but also don't believe that they are manipulative brats, and don't go out of their way to shame their kids, but don't go out of their way to sheild them from negative feelings, either.

At this point I'm just repeating what several others have said, so I'll just shut up now. :

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Old 11-14-2007, 07:40 PM
 
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Mostly because I despise when my kids learn to use it back at me.

That sucks.


Look, I've got a healthy respect for "no" and all that... but an occasional "yes" from DD would be nice too
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:51 PM
 
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I think there is value in questioning the use of the word "no", and my relationship with dd has definitely benefited from strategies that avoid the word "no".

Then again, sometimes a firm "no" is really the most effective communication.

Something really important to for me: when we are "disciplining", we are teaching more than the lesson at hand. We are also constantly teaching--through modeling--social and communication skills. If I want my children to have a broad set of skills, I should use a broad range of (appropriate) methods. In some cases, I definitely want my dc to say, clearly and firmly, "No!" By being selective with "no", I can model how to use that word effectively and appropriately. This become especially important, in my mind, as my child grows and spends more time in the company of others (children and adults) without me. I want to know that I have modeled how to set and maintain a personal boundary.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
I'm sorry I must be missing the context.

Was the post to legitimately ask why some people avoid using the word no with toddlers or to complain that someone who is dropping their young child off at daycare is being too nice to them?
Was this post legitimately to ask the intent of the OP, or was it to make a judgment about her intent?

Sorry, couldn't resist!
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:49 PM
 
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Well, IMO kids have every right to say no about the areas they control. As we have the right to say no about the areas we control. Boundaries and respect for yesses and nos are a good thing.
Yeah but the sucky part is when the 2 yr old JUST learned it and its her answer for EVERYTHING. And I am pregnant and stressed and tired and I am like : PLEASE SAY YES DD, PLEASE...JUST THIS ONCE????!!!!! :




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Look, I've got a healthy respect for "no" and all that... but an occasional "yes" from DD would be nice too
:
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
I'm sorry I must be missing the context.

Was the post to legitimately ask why some people avoid using the word no with toddlers or to complain that someone who is dropping their young child off at daycare is being too nice to them?

Well if the question is legitimate in and of itself, I was really wondering. I merely used that as an example to illustrate my point, rather than, say, point out posts here where I see similar advice given.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Was this post legitimately to ask the intent of the OP, or was it to make a judgment about her intent?

Sorry, couldn't resist!
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:11 PM
 
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Just saying "dont hit!" certain does teach them that they need to find other ways to get your attention/get what they want! Kids are SMART! If Timmy can't hit to get your attention, he WILL find another way to get it. Caudling it seems counterproductive, in practice, to me.
Well adults are smart, too. But, let's say you were working in an office. You turn in a report to your boss. Which would you find more effective:
1) Don't do your reports like this.
2) In the future, could you make sure your reports include the earnings from the last quarter? That way, we can see the comparative data and we'll have a better sense of how to move forward.

When someone--adult or child--is learning, it is far easier to understand what is expected when...he or she is actually told what's expected.

I do use "no" with my dd--especially as an attention-getter if she's doing something dangerous. But if she doesn't understand why I'm saying "no", then how is she supposed to learn how to express herself in a more positive way. To me "No! Please don't put your hands in the dog's face. It upsets her. Look, here's how we pet the dog gently. See? She likes that." is going to do far more good in the long run than "No! Stop that!"

I don't think that's "coddling". I think it's teaching my daughter how to coexist with the people and creatures in her life, offering her instruction while acknowledging that she's a human being who is simply trying to express herself and make sense of her world.

ETA: Captain Crunchy...I didn't read the whole thread...I see you used the work analogy as well! And to the OP...I'm not, FTR, interested in protecting my dd from any negative consequences of her actions. I am, however, interested in actually helping her find productive solutions and ways to express herself.
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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No.



Barking "no! no!" isn't what we want, because we want vocabulary development. I think we react against that kind of command because we associate it with attempting to elicit mindless obedience. Still, we have to model sticking up for ourselves in all relationships, including in relationship with the children themselves. Children will not learn good things from their mothers acting like doormats.
"

Believe me, a three year old can learn to say "acceptable behavior."

I've been thinking on this all day.........and I think it's just a lot of applying really complicated ideas to really simple little brains. Today, when I took my kids outside, one child tried to take a car away form another.......and I said "No, Jane". And she stopped. And she didn't stop and sit there staring dumbing not knowing what to do........she full well knew that I was catching her doing something she shouldn't and she stopped and went a car she COULD have. I think kids learn these things naturally, in a normal environment........they learn their alternatives. I see so many parents getting down in the face of a two year old and having these very complicated conversations about their "options" and about really complex ideas, and I see the 2 year olds tuning out and often realizing they can get away with anything because the worst outcome is undivided attention from mom or dad. KWIM?

Maybe the people I know IRL who apply GD are misusing it, and goodness I hope so. I just see a lot of justifying bad behavior and making excuses and over complicating things that don't need to be so.

And, vocabulary.........it always kind of cracks me up because even the parents I know who honestly NEVER use "no" in their home eventually end up with a toddler who says no. I think it's a great, empowering thing for a toddler to learn! It's simple, easy to learn, and effective. Granted, I hate it too when my toddler says it to me, but what are ya gonna do!

I think that, again, in a normal environment in a healthy home, your child is going to learn enough vocabulary as it is. I personally used the Happiest Toddler on the Block theory with my son, and he's the biggest chatterbox I know for a 3 year old!!!
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well adults are smart, too. But, let's say you were working in an office. You turn in a report to your boss. Which would you find more effective:
1) Don't do your reports like this.
2) In the future, could you make sure your reports include the earnings from the last quarter? That way, we can see the comparative data and we'll have a better sense of how to move forward.

.


Someone else used this analogy and, while it makes me laugh, it doesn't apply. Kids aren't grown ups. Kids aren't doing detailed things which require instruction.......they are hitting mom or hitting a friend or taking a toy. In my experience if you say "Don't hit her" the child has a basic understanding that they need to find another way to express their displeasure with their friend. But, primary is not hitting.

Anyways.........I think I'm just repeating things I've already said.........
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Old 11-14-2007, 09:37 PM
 
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something that I am *trying* to be aware of is to use the positive instead of the negative...it seems to work better....when I remember to do it.

Like instead of "Dont hit her" say "touch her gentle."

Or

"Dont climb the slide!" I say "Up the steps!"

Man, those arent the best examples....but I think the "What CAN you do" works better than "You Cant do that."

As far as practicing what I preach. I totally suck. :P
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Old 11-14-2007, 10:09 PM
 
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Someone else used this analogy and, while it makes me laugh, it doesn't apply. Kids aren't grown ups. Kids aren't doing detailed things which require instruction.......they are hitting mom or hitting a friend or taking a toy. In my experience if you say "Don't hit her" the child has a basic understanding that they need to find another way to express their displeasure with their friend. But, primary is not hitting.

Anyways.........I think I'm just repeating things I've already said.........

The thing is though, is that a child can go through several different 'no's in order to find a 'yes'. It's much simpler to focus on the 'to do's.

You say that children are not doing detailed things, but they are. Social nuances are very detailed. I have the child who did/does not understand a lot of these and had to be taught from the very beginning what different faces mean. It is a very complicated thing especially when teaching it to one who has a mind like computer.

You say it's too drawn out to give options. Only if you make it so. You can give a direct instruction and still be GD, or maintain a respectful relationship with a child. You can say "you need to find a different toy. He is playing with that one right now" and mean the same thing as "No! Stop doing that!"

I don't find it very respectful to tell a child NO and then stick him in time out because he didn't find a YES all on his own. I find that shameful on the part of the teacher.
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Old 11-14-2007, 10:45 PM
 
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No is an answer to a question. Not an order. The words stop or danger work just in well in place of most no's.
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Old 11-14-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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: In my experience if you say "Don't hit her" the child has a basic understanding that they need to find another way to express their displeasure with their friend. But, primary is not hitting.

But, of course, we must also teach them the alternative ways to express their displeasure.

The alternative could also be said.....In my experience, if you say "Hitting hurts. Please use words" the child has the basic understanding that hitting is inappropriate.

Different approaches work better with different children. I think the real problem arises when we stick with a method because we feel that the philosophy is best, but it isn't working for our child. I've recently experienced this point, and it took me a while to sort it out.
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Old 11-14-2007, 10:57 PM
 
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Someone else used this analogy and, while it makes me laugh, it doesn't apply. Kids aren't grown ups. Kids aren't doing detailed things which require instruction.......they are hitting mom or hitting a friend or taking a toy. In my experience if you say "Don't hit her" the child has a basic understanding that they need to find another way to express their displeasure with their friend. But, primary is not hitting.

Anyways.........I think I'm just repeating things I've already said.........
I agree that if you say "No!" that the child has a basic understanding that they need to find another way to express their displeasure. I disagree that finding the other way isn't a "detailed thing which requires instruction." Social interactions are incredibly complex--the "rules" of good behavior require that we surpress many many urges, emotions, and actions which we feel naturally--for a child, who has far less experience navigating the waters of cultural norms, and who has done so in many fewer contexts than an adult, and who naturally has far less impulse control, finding that "other way" can be quite complicated indeed. I have a close relative with Asperger's syndrome--if you don't believe that social interaction is *incredibly* complicated, you should watch someone who doesn't always have the ability or tools to respond in socially acceptable ways to what's going on around her.

I guess I don't see what is to be gained by *not* offering the child a better to express himself. Why not follow the "Don't hit her" with "If you want to play with that toy, you may ask him nicely to share. Or, you can wait your turn and play with this instead.

I also think some of what you're saying here is colored by your personal experience. Now and then I see a kid "getting away with murder"--hitting another child without repercussions, etc.--but more often I see kids whose social interactions are ridiculously proscribed precisely b/c the parent is afraid of allowing the child to, well, be a child. In other words, a very young toddler takes a ball from my young toddler. My daughter doesn't even notice. But the parent immediately snatches the ball away, says "NO! We have to share!", then gives the ball back to my dd (who has probably lost interest). The parents is No-No-Noing, when the child is simply behaving like a regular child and isn't really doing any harm If your child hits my daughter and she starts to cry, then, yes, I expect you to intervene--if our children are just interacting like normal children and no one is bawling, then for pete's sake just let them interact and learn. Let them navigate their social world. What I see is parents who don't have any compunction about hurting their own child's feelings, but are afraid to the point of absurdity of hurting another child's feelings.
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Old 11-14-2007, 11:31 PM
 
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I've been thinking on this all day.........and I think it's just a lot of applying really complicated ideas to really simple little brains.
No, anothermama.

I'm basing my ideas on the research of Hart and Risley. They did longitudinal studies of toddler language acquisition that showed there were long term benefits to using more words with toddlers. (You can see a description of their research in a summary of their book, here:

http://www.brookespublishing.com/sto...1979/index.htm)

I don't have a problem with the word no, but I take exception to the idea that we should use it alone because young children are too dumb to pick up the idea if we use more complex language.

Look, you are going to find ineffective discipline all along the philosophical spectrum. Toddlers are challenging, and they are way more challenging to their parents than to a caregiver.

I just starting hanging out on this forum after some time away and nearly every thread is about a three year old who has suddenly gotten really defiant, is running into the street, throwing tantrums, and hitting. Some threads are about two or four year olds. (Or as I like to think of it, kids with "three year old-ness" that started early or hung on extra long.)

I did say no, and I still do, but that's by far my least effective strategy. I wouldn't hand out advice to other people that involved analyzing a kid's behavior and preventing meltdowns if that didn't work for me. I understand you are advocating having a spine, and I think that's important, but I think you're getting a lot of the particulars of your argument wrong.

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Old 11-15-2007, 12:23 AM - Thread Starter
 
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No, anothermama.

I'm basing my ideas on the research of Hart and Risley. They did longitudinal studies of toddler language acquisition that showed there were long term benefits to using more words with toddlers. (You can see a description of their research in a summary of their book, here:

http://www.brookespublishing.com/sto...1979/index.htm)

I don't have a problem with the word no, but I take exception to the idea that we should use it alone because young children are too dumb to pick up the idea if we use more complex language.

Look, you are going to find ineffective discipline all along the philosophical spectrum. Toddlers are challenging, and they are way more challenging to their parents than to a caregiver.

I just starting hanging out on this forum after some time away and nearly every thread is about a three year old who has suddenly gotten really defiant, is running into the street, throwing tantrums, and hitting. Some threads are about two or four year olds. (Or as I like to think of it, kids with "three year old-ness" that started early or hung on extra long.)

I did say no, and I still do, but that's by far my least effective strategy. I wouldn't hand out advice to other people that involved analyzing a kid's behavior and preventing meltdowns if that didn't work for me. I understand you are advocating having a spine, and I think that's important, but I think you're getting a lot of the particulars of your argument wrong.


Uhm, I'm familiar with those studies, as well as others which contradict it, I was a sociology major with an emphasis in childhood development........

Which is neither here nor there. I can disagree with it and I really wasn't looking to get into a pissing match nor was I looking to start whipping out falacious debate tactics.........I wasn't even looking to debate.

Sorry if I offended you. I think I'm right. I see it in practice every day. But if you disagree, that's ok.

I don't advocate using ONLY no, and I didn't say kids are dumb. I think their psychology is not as complex, that is all. I believe they catch on to human interaction and concepts. And my whole point was simply that I think many parents use the umbrella of GD to be over indulgent and it's not really helping these kids grasp those concepts of human interaction.
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:16 AM
 
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And my whole point was simply that I think many parents use the umbrella of GD to be over indulgent and it's not really helping these kids grasp those concepts of human interaction.
Sure. But, then it's not *GD* that's producing over indulgent kids--it's something else that people are calling GD. Which, frankly, kind of makes it neither here nor there in terms of what most people are practicing.
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:54 AM
 
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The4OfUs I you and agree with everything you said.

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In my experience if you say "Don't hit her" the child has a basic understanding that they need to find another way to express their displeasure with their friend. But, primary is not hitting.
But how does she figure out that other way to express her displeasure? She can either figure it out herself, after perhaps a few failed ideas, or an adult can give her some ideas to give her a head start in succeeding.

It's almost like making it easier for them to comply. I'm all for making my life easier!

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Old 11-15-2007, 03:06 AM
 
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anothermama, I agree with much of what you said. I also think that sometimes we overlook the simple and straightforward and try to overanalyze every nuance of every sentence. And like the OP, I've witnessed some of those conversations in which parents seem almost afraid to say no and I agree that it can be maddening.

Having said that, to address the original question, I do say "no" but I try to save it for special occasions -- usually those dealing with safety. I try not to use it a lot for everyday things. As a result, when I do say no, my DD listens because she knows I'm serious.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:25 AM
 
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Anything, if used to much, becomes ineffective. Saying "no" too often does diminish it's impact, IMO.

I love these discussions but I always feel that it ultimately comes down to the individual child and parent and their relationship above and beyond any technique or word or philosophy.

I certainly agree that "no" alone isn't terribly helpful. I always try to give my kids alternatives to their impulses to hit or push. I feel like that's my job to guide them, not just to call out when they've blown it. But I don't think the OP was suggesting that one doesn't explain alternatives...but maybe I'm wrong on that. I'm assuming that a firm "no" is followed up with some guidance as to what other action or words would be appropriate.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:37 AM
 
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Was this post legitimately to ask the intent of the OP, or was it to make a judgment about her intent?

Sorry, couldn't resist!
Yeah, my question is a laugh riot.

I have no interest in trying to convince someone to parent the way I do. I'm happy to answer people actual questions about *why* someone might avoid framing communication in a negative way. I'm pretty convinced I have a great relationship with dp lasting through thick and thin for a lot of years because she phrases things positively to me, rather than nagging and carping. It's a more effective way to communicate.

When people come to our house and spend time, the thing they comment on is that we talk to each other nicely here and treat each other well. We're not fakey. We actually all like each other a lot. We like spending time together and creating a beautiful life together.

We sometimes act in ways that don't meet our standards. The other day, dp and I had a loud snark in the driveway. It doesn't happen often and it was stupid.

The kids are less likely to screw up than we are. When they do there is a good reason and I do care.

The sing-songy voice: very common in Waldorf. They use it for particular reasons because they think children hear it better. To understand a little about it, read you are your child's first teacher.

It sounds like the original poster knows the reasons people might frame things positively and simply disagrees with them. Fine. Then just say that.

The title chould be changed to something like: I think no is great thing to tell children, then explain why. I think it would be wonderful for her to send a note to the parents of her daycare attendees explaining her discipline philosophy, including that she thinks no is great way to communicate with children's simple minds.

My kids thinking and feelings strike me as different from my own, but no less complex. I respect that other parents' experience of their own children might be different and they might choose to respond to the simplicity of their own children differently than I do the complexity of mine.

I seriously can't imagine criticisizing another mother for being too nice to her child at daycare dropoff. I can't imagine how it would be my business how she responds to her toddler hitting her. And I am not a behaviorist, so I don't think that responding with compassion to my toddler when I am leaving her for hours in someone else's care will "give them positive attention" and therefore increase the behavior. But as I said, my children are just more complex than that.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:11 AM
 
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My kids thinking and feelings strike me as different from my own, but no less complex. I respect that other parents' experience of their own children might be different and they might choose to respond to the simplicity of their own children differently than I do the complexity of mine.
ITA. I never think for a moment that my ds is simple-minded. I've learned tremendous amounts from him and am always amazed by how he perceives and interprets the world.

I also agree with your last point, chfriend, about the mom dropping the child off at daycare. I hadn't even really thought about that but that brings more complexity into the situation, for sure.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:41 AM
 
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Uhm, I'm familiar with those studies, as well as others which contradict it, I was a sociology major with an emphasis in childhood development........
Which is neither here nor there. I can disagree with it and I really wasn't looking to get into a pissing match nor was I looking to start whipping out falacious debate tactics.........I wasn't even looking to debate.
Sorry if I offended you. I think I'm right. I see it in practice every day. But if you disagree, that's ok.
I don't advocate using ONLY no, and I didn't say kids are dumb. I think their psychology is not as complex, that is all. I believe they catch on to human interaction and concepts. And my whole point was simply that I think many parents use the umbrella of GD to be over indulgent and it's not really helping these kids grasp those concepts of human interaction.
It sounds like no matter what kind of evidence anyone else presents for why they are doing something different from you, you are going to continue to insist that their methods are harmful and yours are right. (I guess that means you fit in well here! )

It's a fallacious debate tactic to present a link to a published study? No, it's a fallacious debate tactic to present an argument from authority ("I was a sociology major with a concentration in child development") with only anecdotal evidence ("I see it in practice every day").

I am not just disagreeing with you to be contrary, I think you're wrong because you haven't presented me with any persuasive reasons to change my mind and because you have supported your main assertion ("I think many parents use the umbrella of GD to be over indulgent and it's not really helping these kids grasp those concepts of human interaction") with really easily punctured statements like "I think it's just a lot of applying really complicated ideas to really simple little brains."

I send my kid to daycare, and I'm pretty happy with the way they do discipline, in part because it doesn't consist of saying "No Johnny!" I would be worried, if I saw the teachers resolving children's conflicts that way, because I would think that they weren't providing adequate verbal stimulation for my child when I left him there. Now, obviously, at your home daycare you are reading the children storybooks during the day, and providing lots of opportunities for pretend play and other interaction--discipline isn't the only opportunity for learning vocabulary. Still, if I knew that my daycare provider thought that little children's psychology was too simple for more complex interactions, I would really hesitate.

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:34 AM
 
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Sure. But, then it's not *GD* that's producing over indulgent kids--it's something else that people are calling GD. Which, frankly, kind of makes it neither here nor there in terms of what most people are practicing.
Okay, well fair enough. But then when these people call it GD, which I notice is a very frequently used label for passive ineffective parenting, then where does the seperation between this and 'real' GD begin and end? And, what a coinkidink that this type of parenting is so often called GD. Doesn't that denote that GD philosophy, if 'real' GD can be objectively defined, is contributing in some way to erring on the side of ineffectual?
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