Another mama's gentle discipline is affecting my kiddo--WWYD - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
rzberrymom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
I think in this case you as the mama just need to be diligent in making sure that if the toy is put down then you are right there to pick it up and keep it safe from other children.
That exhausts me too, just thinking about it. I'm running after my newly potty trained kiddo who is running to the bathroom and who still can't do it all herself. There was no way I could have done it all here. I'm trying--when kids come over, DD and I always walk through what she's comfortable sharing and what she'd rather me put away.
rzberrymom is offline  
#122 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:31 AM
 
junipermuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I don't see anything wrong with taking a toy from a child after requesting it back, explaining why, and having the child not comply. I am not a jump-around-doing-tricks type of mama, and I think that is just fine.
I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's wrong to take something from a child to show that taking other people's things is wrong, in the same way that it is wrong to bite a child to show them that biting is wrong, or two spank them to teach them that hitting is wrong. Children learn to treat others the way they are treated. If you treat them with respect, patience, and empathy they in turn will learn to treat people that way. Both children can be treated this way at the same time. The little girl can be treated respectfully without requiring you to pry the toy out of the other child's hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I don't work that hard, or that constantly. Exhausting parenting is not my scene.
Frankly I'm pretty lax when dealing with my own kid, but when I'm disciplining someone else's child, which I often find myself doing when we're at the park, I go the extra mile to be super gentle and give the other child child every benefit of the doubt. I owe it to that child to do that because they are not my own. It is extra work, but I don't have to do it all the time. I can go home and parent my child anyway I want.

Jennifer, mama to darling dancing Juliette, and sweet baby Jameson
junipermuse is offline  
#123 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:34 AM
 
wonderwahine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: wi fi didnt do it!
Posts: 17,724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
and people wonder why mainstream veiws GD parents as being to permissive.
wonderwahine is offline  
#124 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:34 AM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 43,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
But, see that doesn't really solve my bigger problem. 1) I'm not sure I can predict when this stuff is going to happen. 2) It's happened with other things (I talked about a game and a tricycle). 3) He's doing it mainly/only with my kiddo (which is probably heightening her panicked response). 4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

Honoring his need, which I completely understand. But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.
I see what you are saying now that you have explained the tricycle issue a little more.

Honestly, I would discuss it with her. Pushing your dd down is not ok, her not even doing anything about it is REALLY not ok.

It seems like she is not allowing for the needs of other children, only her ds. That isn't fair at all.

IMO, the only thing you can do at this point is discuss it with the mom. She might be GD-ing her ds, but her ds is not treating other children with gentleness nor is she doing anything about his behavior. That isn't GD to me, that is permissiveness.

Her lack of action towards her ds' behavior is having a negative impact on your dd, and I don't think I would permit them to play together if she didn't change tactics.

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
#125 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:44 AM
 
RiverSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paradise
Posts: 7,290
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.
I truly don't understand why you keep calling that other mother's behavior "gentle discipline"...she allows her child to push and hit other children...that's not gentle discipline. : That is a complete lack of discipline, a lack of teaching her child how to be gentle.

Quote:
Honoring his need, which I completely understand.
No, riding a tricycle is not a need. That seems ludicrous to me. He wanted the tricycle that he had left in a common area where the rule is that the toys are to be shared, he PUSHED another child off of the tricycle to use it... in no way, shape or form was that a need. The mother NEEDED to have stepped in and found something else that is fun for the child to do. With my two children, if one wants to play with something the other is playing with, I ask how much longer the first would like to play with the toy. Sometimes the child says, "I'm almost done", other times, I need to mediate and figure out a fair time, then use a timer...like, "okay, you can have it for five more minutes, then your brother can have it for 15 minutes, does that sound good?" etc.

Quote:
But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.
In my opinion, your friend is not practicing gentle discipline at all.

This link seems to have some great suggestions, perhaps you can print them off and give them to your friend.

http://www.parentingweb.com/discipline/pos_disc.htm
RiverSky is offline  
#126 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:49 AM
 
heartmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the bat cave with Irishmommy
Posts: 6,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
IMO, the only thing you can do at this point is discuss it with the mom. She might be GD-ing her ds, but her ds is not treating other children with gentleness nor is she doing anything about his behavior. That isn't GD to me, that is permissiveness.
I agree. If you value the relationship, find a way to talk to her honestly about this. In fact, you have said this is a very close knit community you share. I don't think avoiding her would even work, would it? It sounds like clear communication is the only option. Tell her what you have said here--that you are feeling frustrated by a double standard of expectations. I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
heartmama is offline  
#127 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:52 AM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 43,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama View Post
I agree. If you value the relationship, find a way to talk to her honestly about this. In fact, you have said this is a very close knit community you share. I don't think avoiding her would even work, would it? It sounds like clear communication is the only option. Tell her what you have said here--that you are feeling frustrated by a double standard of expectations. I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.


Yup, I agree.

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
#128 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:53 AM
 
heartmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: In the bat cave with Irishmommy
Posts: 6,262
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I truly don't understand why you keep calling that other mother's behavior "gentle discipline"..
I agree with this too....all gentle and no discipline isn't Gentle Discipline....

Do you have parenting books she could read? Is this her only child? She might honestly be confused as to what GD involves....

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
heartmama is offline  
#129 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
rzberrymom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama View Post
I would tell her you admire her commitment to gentleness, because that *is* admirable. But that your dd is getting hurt by the lack of clear boundaries regarding her son's behavior. His behavior is completely age appropriate, but let her know it can be hurtful anyway, and that you would like her support going forward applying the same standards to both children.
Thank you for this. I'm going to go memorize it now.
rzberrymom is offline  
#130 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 02:59 AM
 
junipermuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
But, see that doesn't really solve my bigger problem. 1) I'm not sure I can predict when this stuff is going to happen. 2) It's happened with other things (I talked about a game and a tricycle). 3) He's doing it mainly/only with my kiddo (which is probably heightening her panicked response). 4) Irregardless of what it was over, the issue I have is with the response of the mother--a GD solution at all costs for her son at the expense of the GD needs of another child.

I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

Honoring his need, which I completely understand. But, then my DD's need is not honored when it is reversed. So, I'm basically teaching my child that a need is more likely to be honored when it is forcefully asserted (back to BellinghamCrunchie's point up on page 1 or something--she dropped it, it's fair game, toddler law, you have to move fast). I believe by going along with all this, I'm teaching my child that if something is snatched/held physically from her, that need is more likely to be honored. The bigger (in size if not age), more assertive child is more likely to have their needs honored.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.
Well this issue with the trike would really bother me much more than the original incident you described. Frankly its really almost the opposite of the situation in the original post. These are the rules I operate from when dealing with toddlers. I often make the assumption that this is what the other parents are operating off also.

-No hurting others (this would include pushing children off bikes, as well as hitting, biting, pinching,kicking, etc.)
-No grabbing (which means not taking something out of someones hand or away from someone if they are using it)
-If something is in a common area and is not being used it is fair game to be used by whomever is around
-If someone is using something you would like to use you let them know you would like a turn. It's okay to ask "how many minutes until you're done?" The child should be allowed to use the toy as long as they like until they feel they are done.

When children don't follow these rules it is obviously the job of the adult to solve the problems that arise.

In the tricycle incident I would have told the other mother that my daughter was not through with her turn and that I am not okay with her son knocking my daughter down to get a turn. I would explain that my understanding was that if the trikes are on the terrace they are for everyone to use, and if she doesn't want her son to share it, then it should be put away or kept inside their home. I totally agree that allowing him to keep using it is teaching him to misuse his strength and force to get what he wants and that is not good.

On the other hand I think with regards to the incident with the toy the situation was almost completely reversed. He very innocently began playing with a toy that was left in the common playarea and was expected to give it back because your daughter threw a fit. In some ways you could say by insisting he return the toy immediately you are teaching your daughter to throw a fit to get what she wants. In both incidents the child was playing with a toy that belonged to the other child and in each case the other child felt they had a claim to the item because it was left unused in a common area. It's not really an issue of right or wrong in either case. It's just an issue to be worked through.

Jennifer, mama to darling dancing Juliette, and sweet baby Jameson
junipermuse is offline  
#131 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:08 AM
 
junipermuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
That exhausts me too, just thinking about it. I'm running after my newly potty trained kiddo who is running to the bathroom and who still can't do it all herself. There was no way I could have done it all here. I'm trying--when kids come over, DD and I always walk through what she's comfortable sharing and what she'd rather me put away.
If your daughter is leaving her very special toy on the floor in a common area someone is going to have to do the work of making sure other children don't play with it. If you don't do it than that just means the other mother's will have to do it. Why should they have to stand over their child repeatedly reminding them not to touch your daughters toy that is lying on the ground when all you have to do is pick it up and take it with you? It's your daughter's toy, and she's the one leaving it around and she's the one that doesn't want to share. If she were older I would say its her responsibility to keep track of it, but since she's so young that responsibility really falls on you.

Jennifer, mama to darling dancing Juliette, and sweet baby Jameson
junipermuse is offline  
#132 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:10 AM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 23,368
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennedyzoo View Post
I'm also a bit surprised that so many posters felt that the 2.5 boy and his mother were unreasonable in this situation when the actions of the little girl to both abandon a toy and then have a tantrum were really her choices.
Her choices? She's not even 3 years old.

The other mother was plainly being disrespectful to the OP and her child. From what I have read here, it is clear the other mother did not want to have to deal with her own child's hard feelings if he had to give up the toy, so she tried to talk the little girl into giving up the toy for the afternoon. It really feels like she was putting the burden on the other mother and child instead of taking the responsibility. The burden should not be on the little girl who lost her toy to be the one to have to subvert her desires.

What I would have done as the mother of the little boy, and as the mother of a child who can get attached to other children's toys and want to take them home, is after I explain why we have to give it back, and ask her to say good-bye to the toy or in other ways come to terms with having to willingly give up the toy. If she couldn't and she was making it clear that she wouldn't, at that point my job would be to firmly explain that if she didn't willingly give up the toy, it wouldn't mean that she got to keep it. I'd take the toy and return it to the little girl, then I would deal with my own child's sense of loss or painful feelings. Because even if I wish that my child wasn't getting hurt, my job as her mother would be to help her through that.
Viola is offline  
#133 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:11 AM - Thread Starter
 
rzberrymom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
On the other hand I think with regards to the incident with the toy the situation was almost completely reversed. He very innocently began playing with a toy that was left in the common playarea and was expected to give it back because your daughter threw a fit. In some ways you could say by insisting he return the toy immediately you are teaching your daughter to throw a fit to get what she wants. In both incidents the child was playing with a toy that belonged to the other child and in each case the other child felt they had a claim to the item because it was left unused in a common area. It's not really an issue of right or wrong in either case. It's just an issue to be worked through.

But watching him physically hold it from her and all of us doing the song and dance to get it from him--the equivalent of that with the tricycle is if she had the physical strength to resist him trying to get it back. She doesn't have that physical strength nor the mental resolve to do that. By going through this song and dance with him, I feel like I'm teaching her that she'd have better luck with her needs if she withholds things from kiddos--he certainly has better luck that way.
rzberrymom is offline  
#134 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:12 AM
 
wonderwahine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: wi fi didnt do it!
Posts: 17,724
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
It's your daughter's toy, and she's the one leaving it around and she's the one that doesn't want to share. If she were older I would say its her responsibility to keep track of it, but since she's so young that responsibility really falls on you.
oh great, now lets bash this mom over a 2 yr old dropping her lovey.
wonderwahine is offline  
#135 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:19 AM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 23,368
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.

So, I'm all for GD, I really really am. I'm just struggling with this.
It doesn't sound like she is practicing GD, it sounds like she is practicing avoidance. Her son physically pushes your daughter off his tricycle, I don't really see it as responsible parenting or GD to let that situation go. Sure, she can say he has a need to use it at that moment because that might be an accurate assessment. But if she doesn't then express what the limit is in what is acceptable behavior in getting his tricycle back, that's not GD, it's not respectful to him. Even if she's trying to be non-coercive, she's essentially telling him that coercion only works in one direction, so it's not even consensual parenting.
Viola is offline  
#136 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:21 AM
 
junipermuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
oh great, now lets bash this mom over a 2 yr old dropping her lovey.
I'm not bashing her. And she has repeatedly said it's not her dd's lovey just a very special toy. And the little girl is 3 not 2!

okay sorry my tantrum is over. Really I was just trying to point out that parenting is hard work for every mom and all we can really do is take responsibility for our own actions and to some extent the actions of our children. I think it's pretty clear that in your home if you don't want your child play with something you keep it out of their reach. The same thing goes for other people's kids outside the home. If you don't want this kid playing with your stuff don't leave it where he can get.

Jennifer, mama to darling dancing Juliette, and sweet baby Jameson
junipermuse is offline  
#137 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
rzberrymom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
And the little girl is 3 not 2!
She's 33 months, if that matters at all. I've lost track of whether it does.
rzberrymom is offline  
#138 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:27 AM
 
JessicaS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 43,864
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
I'm not bashing her. And she has repeatedly said it's not her dd's lovey just a very special toy. And the little girl is 3 not 2!

okay sorry my tantrum is over. Really I was just trying to point out that parenting is hard work for every mom and all we can really do is take responsibility for our own actions and to some extent the actions of our children. I think it's pretty clear that in your home if you don't want your child play with something you keep it out of their reach. The same thing goes for other people's kids outside the home. If you don't want this kid playing with your stuff don't leave it where he can get.
Well, I think part of the problem is the other mom explained to the OP's dd quite clearly that someone can leave their toy, but if it is theirs and they need it then they can have it back.

Quote:
I will give you another example, which I think really illustrates what I'm bristling over. My DD was on a tricycle. It was his tricycle. But the agreement in our community is that if the tricycles are on a terrace area, everyone is allowed to use them. So, she gets on it thinking it's ok. He sees her on his tricycle, he pushes her off and rides off. She's crying, and the mother is explaining to her that it's his tricyle, she can use it another time, that he seems to have a need to use it at that moment.
Adults need to be consistent.

Not all those who wander are lost 
JessicaS is offline  
#139 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:33 AM
 
junipermuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
But watching him physically hold it from her and all of us doing the song and dance to get it from him--the equivalent of that with the tricycle is if she had the physical strength to resist him trying to get it back. She doesn't have that physical strength nor the mental resolve to do that. By going through this song and dance with him, I feel like I'm teaching her that she'd have better luck with her needs if she withholds things from kiddos--he certainly has better luck that way.
It sounds to me like this is a kid with a very different personality from your kid and you feel like he is dominating your child. I think that would really concern me too. Frankly though I don't think its damaging to her to see you work it out gently with the little boy even when it takes a long time. I think from that she could learn many good things. For example My mom works hard to help me out when I'm upset or Even if it takes a long time we can always find a good solution or My mom treats everyone with kindness and respect These are just some of the positive messages I see in working with the little boy to find a solution (in your words, do a song and dance). I think teaching children to problem solve, which is such an important skill in dealing with others, requires being willing to spend large amounts of time on a problem, and being open to many different solutions not just the quick and easy ones. But I believe the benefits are worth it. And I wouldn't worry as much about what she's learning from him, much more important is what she's learning from you.

Jennifer, mama to darling dancing Juliette, and sweet baby Jameson
junipermuse is offline  
#140 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:37 AM
 
junipermuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by abimommy View Post
Well, I think part of the problem is the other mom explained to the OP's dd quite clearly that someone can leave their toy, but if it is theirs and they need it then they can have it back.



Adults need to be consistent.
I agree completely, I have said in many of my posts that the two mommy's should come up with guidelines together, so they can be consistent.

Jennifer, mama to darling dancing Juliette, and sweet baby Jameson
junipermuse is offline  
#141 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:41 AM
 
junipermuse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,165
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
She's 33 months, if that matters at all. I've lost track of whether it does.
it doesn't really matter much basically you've just got two toddlers who are just trying to figure out how to interact with each other and one mom who isn't really interested in helping anyone but her own child (i'm talking about the other mom, not you rzberrymom, just in case that wasn't clear)

Jennifer, mama to darling dancing Juliette, and sweet baby Jameson
junipermuse is offline  
#142 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:41 AM
 
Viola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nevada
Posts: 23,368
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
On the other hand I think with regards to the incident with the toy the situation was almost completely reversed. He very innocently began playing with a toy that was left in the common playarea and was expected to give it back because your daughter threw a fit. In some ways you could say by insisting he return the toy immediately you are teaching your daughter to throw a fit to get what she wants.
Having had a child who would be very emotionally upset when other people played with her toys, my reaction was to try and calm her down and defuse the emotions, assure her she would get the toy back, make sure that we had the toy back when we left, and then try and prevent future situations like that from arising. But I think part of this is that my own personal policy is that while it is understandable that children will want to play with other kids' toys, and while I've even explained to my child ahead of time that other children will want her to share her toy, I don't see this as some sort of finders keepers free-for-all. A child brings a toy to the park, the child lays down or drops the toy, it doesn't mean my child gets to have a significant amount of playing time with it. It's not her toy, and if the other child doesn't want to share, I don't feel that we can force that.

I guess if the ground rules were laid out where we all agreed that anyone could have a turn, then I'd have a different feeling, or else I'd have to be more careful if I felt like my child couldn't handle that.

Quote:
Well, I think part of the problem is the other mom explained to the OP's dd quite clearly that someone can leave their toy, but if it is theirs and they need it then they can have it back.
Yes, that does seem to be the case.
Viola is offline  
#143 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 04:19 AM
 
gwynthfair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 986
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
Also I wanted to point out that often it takes a very young child much longer than we expect to process a request. Especially when there is a lot of distraction like a child nearby in hysterics and his Mama talking on and on. Sometimes it seems as if a child is standing there looking defiant, when in reality they are still processing the situation. I mean really imagine you're walking along and you find this interesting thing, you become totally focused on this thing when out of nowhere another child starts screaming and crying at you. You haven't even had time to figure out what's happening when the child's mom starts telling you to give the toy back. You are trying to process the words in your little 2.5 year old brain, but before your brain can finish processing the words, your mom jumps in with more words. You then have to begin processing the words all over again. A speech and language therapist once explained to me that its really important to wait a good amount of time before repeating an instruction to a young child because if they are in the middle of processing what you've said and you interrupt them to repeat the instruction, they have to start processing all over again. Most people assume the child is being defiant, but really they just need more time to process.
I think this is a very good point and wanted to emphasize this again. I've just been reading along and enjoying the conversation. Clearly there is a "gradient" of understanding for children, however, he refused multiple times to give up the toy, so he probably had understood the message. (I'm glad you made the point though, because I think it's a good thing to consider.)

Clearly the mother is not effectively disciplining her child, and I hope for everyone's sake that you guys can discuss it and work it out. She may feel very overwhelmed with the situation and not know what to do as well! I would think that any reasonable person would accept their own inconsistencies. I would just gently tell her my concerns about the message her inconsistencies are sending.

It's interesting how my opinions on the subject have changed after reading all these posts! I learn so much here sometimes!

I think taking by force should be used as a last resort...but a very serious face with an assertive statement like, "she's very upset. give the toy right away," with hand out might have been in order. And honestly, I don't think it would have been inappropriate for the OP to say something like that to the little boy - in fact, it might have been more effective coming from you. But I guess that all depends on the dynamic you have.

Good luck getting things straightened out.
gwynthfair is offline  
#144 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 08:21 AM
 
The4OfUs's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,102
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
I would have stayed as close as possible to the little boy and insisted he return it and stay on his case until he handed it back to me. While at the same time letting my daughter know that I realized how important it is to her and that I am working on getting it back.
See, now this seems to me worse than gently prying the toy out of his hands while explaining the situation to him and empathizing with him. It seems like badgering and guilting him into it, and not modeling assertiveness to your own child..."OK, how about 3 minutes?" Then what happens in 3 minutes if he doesn't want to give it up? Another 3 minutes? This is where negotiations and finding mutual solutions loses it for me. IMHO, dragging out a situation to be sure everyone is satisfied is sometimes worse than just getting it over with and moving forward and processing some disappointment. There's kindness, and then there's enabling...and I know it sounds silly to use that word with toddlers, but it's part of teaching them socially acceptable behaviors. I am NOT advocating hostily ripping the toy from his screaming hands . I am advocating giving him just a couple minutes with an explanation (and recognition to him that it was a mistake to leave it out instead of taking with you to the potty - that will help him process), and then if he won't produce the toy to either my kid, his mom, or me, telling the mom 'we need to get the toy from him now, do you want to do it or should I?' and then making it happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
But when he freaked out I explained to my child that it is his special toy, gently, as I pried it out of her hands. .
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viola View Post
From what I have read here, it is clear the other mother did not want to have to deal with her own child's hard feelings

<snip>
I'd take the toy and return it to the little girl, then I would deal with my own child's sense of loss or painful feelings. Because even if I wish that my child wasn't getting hurt, my job as her mother would be to help her through that.
And exactly this, too.



OP, I think heartmama was spot on when she said you're going to have to have a conversation (albeit an uncomfortable one) with this mom, to try to get on a similar page regarding how to resolve conflicts between your children since it's a recurring issue. I don't envy you the task. Good luck talking to her!

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
The4OfUs is offline  
#145 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 08:51 AM
 
beanma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: with the dustbunnies & sugar beans
Posts: 8,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Have you thought about what you would do if, say, the other mom wasn't around and you were babysitting for the boy? Your dd takes one of the boy's toys and the boy is upset. What would you tell your dd? That's probably what I would tell the boy and the mom.

"Oh, thanks! You found dd's toy. She dropped it when she went to the potty," holding out your hand to receive it back.

"Yeah, it is pretty cool, isn't it. It's really special to dd. Would you like to hold it a few more minutes? Tell you what, I'll sing the ABC song and when I'm done, let's trade and I'll give you this dump truck. A B C D... All right, I'm done. Time to trade." (I used the ABC song as a timing method a lot when my kids were little. They couldn't understand how long a minute was, but they understood when the ABC song would end. Was great for giving toys back, stopping nursing, getting ready to leave the park, etc.)

"Awwww...I'm sorry you don't want to, but it belongs to dd and see how upset she is? I can help you find another toy if you'd like, but we need to give this toy back to dd now."

Sympathetic, but firm.

As for the tricycle incident. I would have corrected the other child on that, too:

[He pushes her off. She's crying.] "Hey, [boy's name], it's okay if you want to ride the trike, but it's not okay to push dd off. The way to let her know nicely is to say, 'dd, that's my trike and I'd like to ride it now'. Do you understand? Now, let's stop and get off and check in with her and make sure she's okay and then you can have your ride."

I think it would be fine for you to talk to the other mom, but personally I think it would be fine to step in and take care of both kids if she's not doing it adequately. If you're gentle and yet take control of the situation she probably won't be upset and will pick up some ideas from you. I know that even though we rarely leave our kids with anyone there are plenty of times that other parents have the opportunity to say something to my kids about their behavior whether it's at a friend's house (let's not play in mom and dad's bedroom) or on the playground, (throwing sand is not a good idea, 'cause it might get in someone's eyes), etc, etc.

I think just extend that "it takes a village" concept and don't wait for mom to step in since she's having a hard time with it. I mean, you could give her one chance, but if you see she's having a hard time step in and support her by showing the kids what they need to know.

Mamatreehugger.gif to two girl beans, Feb 2001hearts.gif and Nov 2003coolshine.gif . DH geek.gif, and two crazydog2.gifdog2.gif . Running on biodiesel since 2004!
 
"All you fascists are bound to lose" — Woody Guthrie
beanma is offline  
#146 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:12 AM
 
monkey's mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,359
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"Yeah that" to beanma's whole post.

I had a mom who was clearly uncomfortable with me saying something to her kids, but she would be chit-chatting until she heard the screaming--and only *then* would there be any, "Oh somethings going on w/ my child AGAIN," response. Which is OK, I suppose, but if you're not gonna be proactive when your kids got his fist in the air, then someone else is--and I don't really think you get too much room for pissiness if you're leaving it up to other's on a regular basis.

I dont' see anything wrong with, "Hey! Don't push her." "Please give that back, she's not done." "Excuse me, please stop." etc.
monkey's mom is offline  
#147 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:23 AM
 
sunnmama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: surrounded by love
Posts: 6,447
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The4OfUs View Post
IMHO, dragging out a situation to be sure everyone is satisfied is sometimes worse than just getting it over with and moving forward and processing some disappointment.
Yes, this. More and more, I am believing this to be true. IMHO, not taking the toy from the child's hand (because of a "no taking things from other's hands" philosophy) is missing the forest for the trees. It draws out the pain for both parties unnecessarily. It allows more distress, and it is *not* always the most respectful action imo.

It isn't the same as not hitting a child, or not biting a child. Hitting and biting are assaults in the adult world. Taking an object back that is rightfully yours, after repeated requests to have it handed back, is not an assault. It isn't even inappropriate.

One more thing, about being vigilant about the object left on the ground:

Kids are way smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. If she carries that toy around all the time....or if she is even just carrying it around that day....the other child knows it is her toy. And he should (imo) "know" (although need guidance and reminders) that he must return it if she requests he do so. The biggest problem I am having with this scenario (and projecting myself into it at some point in the future) is the attitude that he has a "right" to play with a found toy, and can return it when willing. That is not at all true imo, whether it were a lovey or not. And I believe that is a problematic lesson to teach a child.
sunnmama is offline  
#148 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:25 AM
 
the_lissa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 13,253
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's wrong to take something from a child to show that taking other people's things is wrong, in the same way that it is wrong to bite a child to show them that biting is wrong, or two spank them to teach them that hitting is wrong. Children learn to treat others the way they are treated. If you treat them with respect, patience, and empathy they in turn will learn to treat people that way. Both children can be treated this way at the same time. The little girl can be treated respectfully without requiring you to pry the toy out of the other child's hands.

I completely disagree. Taking something and giving it back to its owner is reinforcing that taking something that doesn't belong to you is bad.

It also has nothing to do with being bigger or an abuse of power. If someone I know took my book or my ipod or something and wouldn't give it back, of course I would take it back.

The little girl was not being treated respectfully. the little girl was in hysterics.

I cannot understand why people on this thread are so concerned with the feelings of this little boy and not the little girl. Giving the girl back her toy will not damage this boy.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

the_lissa is offline  
#149 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:29 AM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
I'm sorry, but I disagree. It's wrong to take something from a child to show that taking other people's things is wrong,
No, it is not. It's not the same thing. This is not the child's toy for one thing, so you are not removing his toy to show that taking another toy is wrong. Also, you are the MOTHER. In my world, that means something. This is not a roommate situation here.

Quote:
in the same way that it is wrong to bite a child to show them that biting is wrong, or two spank them to teach them that hitting is wrong.
This is hardly comparable to physically assaulting a child.

Quote:
Children learn to treat others the way they are treated. If you treat them with respect, patience, and empathy they in turn will learn to treat people that way.
Not if you teach them that the world revolves around them, and that they will be treated with extreme gentleness as though they are made of glass, but they are not required to treat others the same way. That is how you get a narcissistic and selfish child. I see 'modelling' here used to the exclusion of directly teaching a child that another person's feelings matter in the situation, right now, and it has to be corrected.
thismama is offline  
#150 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:32 AM
 
thismama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Nursing the revolution
Posts: 14,356
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama View Post
I agree with this too....all gentle and no discipline isn't Gentle Discipline....
: So nice to read those words here...
thismama is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off