Another mama's gentle discipline is affecting my kiddo--WWYD - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
Yes, Junipermuse, I'm so offended by you continuing to characterize it this way. I haven't said anything about it because I didn't think it was conducive to anything here. She was extremely emotionally distraught, hysterical at the fact that a little boy that she is wary of would not return an item that is precious to her. As well as the fact that it was not getting resolved and was going on and on.

I've been very respectful with how I characterize the other child's behavior, and I would appreciate it if you did the same with mine.
I apologize for offending you, I do hear how that term is hurtful. And frankly I don't believe there was anything wrong or inappropriate in your daughter being emotionally distraught over the little boy having her toy. Or in you wanting to swiftly remedy the situation. I do agree you were respectful with regards to your description of the little boy as well. Many people here were not and they characterized him as aggressive and spoiled. I was trying to demonstrate that those types of label could easily be turned around and applied to other children as well. It was unfair for me to use your child as an example of that though. I am sorry. Frankly I think it is unfair to apply those types of labels to any child who is just acting in a developmentally appropriate fashion.

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#182 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 03:59 PM
 
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Again I haven't seen anyone say the boy was selfish. People are saying the mother was wrong and her parenting was ineffective.

She is teaching him to have a sense of entitlement, not respect other people's property, that his will trumps all, etc. That is not good.

Yes he is being developmentally appropriate, and it is the parents' job to teach him what to do.

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#183 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 04:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by the_lissa View Post

The OP has said it was not a hissy fit, and you are being rude.
I'm sorry about my posting following the post where rzberrymom said she was offended. There was a cross-posting issue at that moment. And I did apologize. However I will now bow out now as it was not my intention to be rude or offend anyone. Again I am sorry.

Jennifer, mama to darling dancing Juliette, and sweet baby Jameson
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#184 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 04:10 PM
 
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Another thing that bothers me is that a few posters have implied that this girl had a hissy fit to manipulate the situation. I see that she was very upset and expressing that. I am disturbed that people are attributing ulterior motives to her displays of emotion.

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#185 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 04:35 PM
 
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I continue to be surprised at the insistence that the little girl would actually learn something by watching adults gently try to convince this boy to return her toy. She was hysterical - that means she was literally incapable of learning anything in that moment. That is why we wait until things are calm, we and our children are regulated, before we discuss the problems and talk about how we'd handle it differently the next time. In that moment of emotional distress, there is no reason to even bother trying to teach and explain, because it will not process - the short-term memory just shuts off.

This is where heartmama's suggestion (I think ) was to remove her from the room - and most times it would be an excellent idea. I'm not sure if she would have been able to calm down or not, wondering if she was going to get that toy back, but maybe. It's a case-by-case thing where only the mother who knows her child best can decide.

But really, to think she would learn anything when hysterical is just surprising to me.

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#186 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 05:27 PM
 
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double post
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#187 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 05:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
I'm hearing many people say they would "just (gently) take it back." And dismissing other GD tactics (like playfullness, prevention, waiting, etc.) which are being suggested here.

I don't think anyone is supporting the tactics the actual mother used (suggesting that the hysterical child have empathy for her son, asking to keep the toy for the afternoon, etc).

But I see nothing wrong with offering a trade or trying any number of GD tactics suggested here. Lots of great ideas!! Thanks!
in this situation we would have, because the child was given many opportunitys.

and I do not see waiting while your child is hysterical and paniced as gentle parenting at all.
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#188 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 05:32 PM
 
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There are so many points here to think about (and obviously debate) especially with the added scenario of the tricycle incident. And while the tricycle incident seems to show a more negative though age appropriate side to the 2.5 year old...the best intervention to that incident would have been just the opposite of the dropped toy incident - you do not grab something away from someone else, even if it is YOURS, my daughter is playing with the trike now and she will return it to you in a short while....letting his mom deal with the likely reaction.

I am a bit concerned that so many posters referred to problem solving as "song and dance". One of the biggest issues in socialization of children is problem solving as well as one of the best strengths of gentle discipline. Junipermuse was simple suggesting that a little time be taken to make that happen and that we need to see situations from all sides.

But I think someone else said correctly the primary concern would have been in calming the poster's dd and assuring her that mom would indeed see that the favorite toy would be returned. But as I would not have returned the trike to my son if he had gotten so upset about sharing, I would also not feel I needed to immediately get back her special toy either. Believe me though, I would have been watching the little boy every minute with dd in my arms to make sure that toy was safe . If I felt that the only way to get the toy back (because the mom was too permissive or whatever) was to pack up and go home I would have done that with a "I'm glad you had some time to play with the toy but we are leaving now and it needs to come home with us." I just think that would be a later solution rather than an earlier one.

It does seem much easier to use GD or any child rearing method on your own child than it is on others and none of us want to see our children in pain so I certainly understand that there are those who emphathize more closely with poster and her daughter but we do need to be consistent and I wonder what our responses would have been if we read the tricycle incident first.
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#189 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 06:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
in this situation we would have, because the child was given many opportunitys.

and I do not see waiting while your child is hysterical and paniced as gentle parenting at all.
Holding out your handing and waiting for the toy while the girl is hysterical isn't gentle parenting? :

So if the boy had given the girl "many opportunities" to get off his bike, would you support him taking it from her?

I'm not saying taking the toy from the boy's hand in a gentle way isn't something I might resort to, but I definitely think that we should be considering ways to solve that problem without force. And likewise, him taking the bike from her is understandable and expedient, but I definitely think we (and he) should consider other means.

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Originally Posted by Kennedyzoo View Post
I am a bit concerned that so many posters referred to problem solving as "song and dance".
Me, too. :
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#190 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 06:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
So if the boy had given the girl "many opportunities" to get off his bike, would you support him taking it from her?
yes, but as a parent, i wouldnt be standing there letting it carry on, i would have stepped in and asked my dc to give them a turn and maybe later they will let you use their trike. had they refused, i would have picked them up and given the trike to the owner.
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#191 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 06:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
As others have said, it doesn't sound *to me* like she was actually using any of those ideologies, rather she was trying to find a sorta-nice-way to get her kid what he wanted. And that that's what she generally does. Very different.

That's what I think too.

You can't blame the boy. Who wouldn't want to have a French Speaking surf board??? Even I want one now. But, maybe the Mom wanted him to be able to play with it, and she was using "GD" as her sheild.
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#192 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 06:48 PM
 
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This is a very interesting thread. Most of what I personally believe has been well put by thismomma and the lissa. The one thing I would add is that I don't agree with the concern that returning a toy to a hysterical 3-yo is "validating" the view that a "mere object" is important, and that attachment to material objects ought to be discouraged at all costs in small children. The contrary view that some seem to espouse is "finders keepers losers weepers." I really don't think that this belief system is superior to the one that actually prevails in our society -- that people have the right to request, and then demand, and then retake, ownership of their own property.
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#193 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post

Me, too. :
I think lots of us are talking about problem solving. But IMO there is problem solving and then there is song and dance. Giving the child an explanation of the importance of the toy and a chance to return it, and then removing it when he is not cooperative, is problem solving IMO. Standing around begging while he turns it into a major extended drama is song and dance.
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#194 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 06:55 PM
 
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I agree thismama.

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#195 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 06:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
yes, but as a parent, i wouldnt be standing there letting it carry on, i would have stepped in and asked my dc to give them a turn and maybe later they will let you use their trike. had they refused, i would have picked them up and given the trike to the owner.
I'm personally not comfortable sort of "truncating" the problem solving aspects of this scenario and heading fairly quickly to physical coercion. I don't think it accounts for what happens if the mama (the biggest arbitrator of what's fair) isn't around. I, personally, think that modelling a huge array of negotiating and problem-solving is really, really important. I don't think it accounts for what happens if the mama isn't bigger/stronger--b/c that's sort of what all of this depends on, really. And I think working toward a solution that makes ALL parties comfortable (even if that process is difficult) is better than finding a solution that leaves one person feeling shafted (even if that process is easier). But, that's ideally. If I had been the OP I'd probably wanted to smack the boy, cuss out the mom, and take my kid's toy and maybe one of his--just for good measure.
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#196 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 06:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Iris' Mom View Post
that people have the right to request, and then demand, and then retake, ownership of their own property.
: if this was an arguement/disagreement over a toy in a communal play area or at a playgroup etc, tough tittys, you gotta share. If its YOUR toy, your object, you (the child) have every right to deny the sharing of it, and I will tottaly validate that. It is afterall their property.
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#197 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
But why isn't the boys feelings as important as the girls feelings? This is what I don't understand.
Because it's not his toy.
I'm not saying he did anything wrong, and I'm not saying that trying other, less forceful methods first isn't a good idea. But, ultimately, how he feels about someone else's possesion is less important than how the owner feels about their possession. And I think it's okay for him to learn that even at a young age.

I'd be advocating more for creative solutions and less for direct force (which I don't happen to think is wrong) if 1. The OP's DD wasn't quite so upset, given her history with this little boy, and/or 2. The boy's mother wasn't advocating solely for her son at the expense of the little girl. "He really likes it, can he keep it for the day?" would bring out the mama bear in me, and it would be time to say "No he can't, and we have to go now, I need the toy back right now."
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#198 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:22 PM
 
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"So what I keep hearing is that the girls feelings are very important, the mom's desire not to work too hard at problem solving is pretty important, but the boys desire to explore this toy that he legitimately found on the ground not being used by anybody is really pretty inconsequential."

bold mine

What are we teaching our children about found toys? That they are free to play with them?

I don't believe that children (or adults) have a "legitimate" right to explore an toy found on the ground. At toddler age, if my dd picked up a toy on the ground (in a public space....not a friend's house), I would say something like "Ooh, cool toy. Who do you think it belongs to?" We might ask if she could play with it, or if no one was around to ask, she might play with it with the understanding that we would return it if the owner appeared to claim it. But either way, the reminder was there that this is not her toy--and it must be returned at the owner's requests. She absolutely understood that at 2.5. She liked to take lost toys at the library to the librarian for safe keeping. She knew they belonged to another child.
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#199 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
If I had been the OP I'd probably wanted to smack the boy, cuss out the mom, and take my kid's toy and maybe one of his--just for good measure.
Ha!

I love it when the gd-zenmasters reveal their human side
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#200 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:26 PM
 
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Yeah, but some of the toys in the OP's situation ARE supposed to be shared if found--like the tricycle. I think it's trickier in her case b/c of those extra elements.

I definitely agree that the owner--in general--gets to kind of call the shots with their stuff. And that sometimes there's just stuff that isn't up for sharing--and I still think kids ought to be able to bring that stuff where they want.

But I think the original situation is a bit different.
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#201 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post
Ha!

I love it when the gd-zenmasters reveal their human side
Hee! But, I am *hardly* a gd-zenmaster!

Quite honestly, the reason I try to get into a co-operative mindframe about this stuff is b/c I will go right into smackdown mode if it starts to be a power struggle/pissing match. ANd of course, god blessed me with a mini-me who does the exact same thing. Consensus is better for me....for us!
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#202 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I think lots of us are talking about problem solving. But IMO there is problem solving and then there is song and dance. Giving the child an explanation of the importance of the toy and a chance to return it, and then removing it when he is not cooperative, is problem solving IMO. Standing around begging while he turns it into a major extended drama is song and dance.
Yep.
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#203 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
Yeah, but some of the toys in the OP's situation ARE supposed to be shared if found--like the tricycle. I think it's trickier in her case b/c of those extra elements.

I definitely agree that the owner--in general--gets to kind of call the shots with their stuff. And that sometimes there's just stuff that isn't up for sharing--and I still think kids ought to be able to bring that stuff where they want.

But I think the original situation is a bit different.
I think the sharing over the trike is to confusing for toddlers, if it was my ds, i wouldnt keep it out in the communal area, and if it was my dd, i would remind her that its not her trike, so if the owner comes by and wants it, she has to give it back. I would probably buy my own trike for my kid, and remind them to ride their own, just to prevent confusion, but I'm that kind of person.
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#204 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I think lots of us are talking about problem solving. But IMO there is problem solving and then there is song and dance. Giving the child an explanation of the importance of the toy and a chance to return it, and then removing it when he is not cooperative, is problem solving IMO. Standing around begging while he turns it into a major extended drama is song and dance.
Hmmm...I guess I misunderstood b/c it seemed like there were some other suggestions besides "standing around begging" which got dismissed as song and dance and such.
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#205 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom View Post
Hmmm...I guess I misunderstood b/c it seemed like there were some other suggestions besides "standing around begging" which got dismissed as song and dance and such.
It just seems to me like song and dance to spend ages negotiating for the removal of a toy from a young child whose toy it is not. Especially while someone else stands there crying hysterically. That for me makes it over the line not okay to spend lots of time on it. Also honestly I just don't have the desire/energy to work that hard on a pretty minor incident, which is likely to be one of many in a day with a small child. I would be exhausted and burnt out if I never got to pull veto power.

YMMV and that's okay, but it seems the more CL perspective is getting held up on this forum a lot as 'more' GD than other approaches. I think anything respectful and gentle while still effective counts as GD.
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#206 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I think anything respectful and gentle while still effective counts as GD.
I agree that there are many, many things that constitute GD and that we are all going to pick and choose what works for us. But just as it's insulting to some to say, "Well, removing the toy is just bullying," it's insulting to others to say, "Making a game of it [or offering a trade or whatever] is a song and dance." If both are GD (and I think they are), then perhaps we could disagree or discuss while avoiding the denigrating remarks.
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#207 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 07:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by junipermuse View Post
Some ideas are:
-offer a trade
-offer a choice, "would you like to hand it to me or to your mommy"
-ask "how many minutes until you are done?" this can be combined with a choice such as "would you like to look at it for 1 more minute or 2"
-make it into a game "can you fly the surfboad to me?", "can you hop like a bunny and bring me the surfboard"
-Play the surprise me game "I'm going to close my eyes and count to ten, lets see if you can surprise me by putting down the surf board before I get to 10"
-waiting for the bus which is from a parenting book that I can't remember the title of at the moment, but the concept is that you tell the child what you expect them to do and then just wait patiently and expectantly for them to comply

Thank you for this. I'm always striving to do better. When I'm just thinking and it's a calm moment, I do much better than when "in the moment". I really like the surprise me game.
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#208 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 08:00 PM
 
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First, the age thing:
The boy is 2.5 (30 months), the girl is nearly 3 (33 months), so essentially, they are the SAME age.

Everything I bold is what I most agree with in the following quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max'sMama View Post

I think that you should have said to the mom and the baby, " that is DD's toy, one that I do not require she share, please return it."
I think that some parents (and from your description-your neighbor) forget that Gentle Discipline means Gently TEACH.
That includes teaching appropriate behavior.

This is why I feel that you should be able and comfortable in saying please return the toy and you shouldn't feel bad about telling the mom that she needs to return the toy IMMEDIATELY to your child.
She would probably expect, if the tables were turned, for your child to immediately return her child's prized possession.

I also think that it's absurd for her to see your child getting hysterical and still ask to keep the toy for the afternoon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Learning_Mum View Post
As for her DS, seems to me is all she taught him there was "if you take something that you want, that doesn't belong to you, and then you yell and scream enough I'll let you keep it".
I understand the boy didn't yell, scream or in any way indicate he was upset.
Why would he be?
He had the toy and he wasn't giving it up.
He had nothing to be upset about.
It was the girl who was upset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aran View Post
I teach my toddler what is socially acceptable, with empathy for his toddler feelings.

In this case, it would probably mean telling the mom that she needs to get the toy in my hands now, because dc needs to leave... and then leave.
I'm not sure why anyone would have to leave at that point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aran View Post

Trying to teach in the heat of the moment is not going to work well,
IME.
I think the expectation to share *everything* is unrealistic.

I agree that much angst can be avoided by not bringing cherished items around other kids.
But your dc needs to decide for herself to share her items.
They are ultimately hers and understanding sharing means, first, understanding ownership.
The borrower is not the one who should decide sharing arrangements - that will teach dc to be resentful, stingy and miserly, ultimately, IMO.

ETA: cross-post with the op - I see it happens with sharing in general, and not just with special items.
I really wouldn't want my dc playing with this boy if he's behaving like this regularly, unchecked.
But I think kid-kid interactions at such young ages are highly overrated so I just avoid the kids with behaviors I don't want to see in my sons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by natensarah View Post
If I were you, I think I would do more disciplining of the boy.
I would kind of act like I would if the mother wasn't there.
For example, if he came to push my dd off of her trike, I'd say, "Dd is still using it, you'll have to wait your turn.
Here, want to play with XYZ?" Have you tried that?

I think your dd would appreciate you standing up for her, and you can model it for her so she can learn it too.
In fact, you could even tell her, "Dd, if you're not finished with the trike, you can tell him that you're still having a turn.
Say, 'I'm not finished, don't push me!'
"
I strongly support empowering children, especially when dealing with bullies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderwahine View Post
If it was her comfort toy, I highly doubt putting it up where even she couldn't touch it would make her calm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alllyssa View Post
Gentle discipline isn't supposed to be about turning our kids into spoiled brats, but unfortunately that's how a lot of people see it -
it's gone to the extreme of almost "un-parenting" and not being able to tell your kiddo "no" or "give that back right to her".
Quote:
Originally Posted by homewithtwinsmama View Post
...telling him that its not OK to keep her toy and let her get so upset.
It is coming with us since we are leaving now.
There is gentle discipline and there is child rules the roost to the point where everyone else has to suffer so the little prince doesn't get his feathers ruffled.
To me that does not qualify as GD, just timid parenting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamaduck View Post
I don't think it is right to expect a 2 yo. to calm down and learn about surviving without their attachment object.
I think it is too high an expectation.
....ts more than an object.
From the child's perspective, its a personality -- her baby.
Its not rational to expect that you would calm down, or learn to accept that you can be okay without your baby for a minute.
You would really just need your baby back -- now.
This little girl has plenty of time to learn that her doll is just an object.
She doesn't need to learn that as a toddler.
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Originally Posted by graceomalley View Post
You should have implored her son to have some empathy for your hysterical daughter!!!
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Originally Posted by RiverSky View Post
I truly don't understand why you keep calling that other mother's behavior "gentle discipline"...she allows her child to push and hit other children...that's not gentle discipline.
That is a complete lack of discipline, a lack of teaching her child how to be gentle.
No, riding a tricycle is not a need.
That seems ludicrous to me.
He wanted the tricycle that he had left in a common area where the rule is that the toys are to be shared, he PUSHED another child off of the tricycle to use it... in no way, shape or form was that a need.
The mother NEEDED to have stepped in and found something else that is fun for the child to do.
In my opinion, your friend is not practicing gentle discipline at all.
This link seems to have some great suggestions, perhaps you can print them off and give them to your friend.
http://www.parentingweb.com/discipline/pos_disc.htm

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#209 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 09:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post

What are we teaching our children about found toys? That they are free to play with them?

I don't believe that children (or adults) have a "legitimate" right to explore an toy found on the ground..
Yes, yes, yes.

This was not a playdate at someone's house, where the toys are there to be shared. This was in a public space, and the toy was *dropped* on the way to the bathroom.

Lets say I drop a ball of yarn while hustling to help my DD in the potty. I come back and someone has picked it up. I believe it is a very reasonable expectation of me to say, "Oh, that's mine, thanks for picking it up," and expect it be returned to me. Immediately. Perhaps with some conversation about the color or what its for, or what I'm making.... but returned to me.

Same deal with a dropped toy. And sunnmama's tactic on this with her little one sounds perfect: "Oh, look! Rzberrybaby dropped her surfboard! We'd better pick it up for her and hold it for her so she doesn't worry about it! We'll give it back to her as soon as she's out of the potty."

This wasn't about sharing or taking the wrong toy to a playdate. This was about another mother teaching "Finders Keepers."

Further, how long is is reasonable to wait for someone who you've run into in a public space to return a personal item so that you can continue on your day? If this was in a park, was the OP obligated to wait 15 minutes, 30, or an hour, before saying "We'd like to go home now, can we have the toy back?" All while the toy's owner was hysterical?

And OMG, but "Can he take it home? See how much he likes it?" would have brought out the Mama Kodiak in me.

I do agree that there are loads of ways to come at this totally nonviolently, but I come down on the side of "there comes a time when you tell a 2.5yo "This is not yours, you cannot keep it." and you remove it from them as physically gently as you can.

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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#210 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 09:22 PM
 
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I absolutely do not agree with letting my children play with abandoned toys at the playground, under any other circumstances than finding the owner and ASKING permission. That's bs, and my kids would be PO'd to find some random kid riding their bike, or other toys. Especially bikes though, that's not a shared toy imo, unless expressly offered. Now I will say that if I have toddler playdates, I only get out bikes or ride on toys if there is one for every child- whether they want to switch at some point is fine, but each child needs one.
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