Another mama's gentle discipline is affecting my kiddo--WWYD - Page 8 - Mothering Forums
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#211 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 09:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by savithny View Post
Yes, yes, yes.

This was not a playdate at someone's house, where the toys are there to be shared. This was in a public space, and the toy was *dropped* on the way to the bathroom.

Lets say I drop a ball of yarn while hustling to help my DD in the potty. I come back and someone has picked it up. I believe it is a very reasonable expectation of me to say, "Oh, that's mine, thanks for picking it up," and expect it be returned to me. Immediately. Perhaps with some conversation about the color or what its for, or what I'm making.... but returned to me.

Same deal with a dropped toy. And sunnmama's tactic on this with her little one sounds perfect: "Oh, look! Rzberrybaby dropped her surfboard! We'd better pick it up for her and hold it for her so she doesn't worry about it! We'll give it back to her as soon as she's out of the potty."

This wasn't about sharing or taking the wrong toy to a playdate. This was about another mother teaching "Finders Keepers."

Further, how long is is reasonable to wait for someone who you've run into in a public space to return a personal item so that you can continue on your day? If this was in a park, was the OP obligated to wait 15 minutes, 30, or an hour, before saying "We'd like to go home now, can we have the toy back?" All while the toy's owner was hysterical?

And OMG, but "Can he take it home? See how much he likes it?" would have brought out the Mama Kodiak in me.

I do agree that there are loads of ways to come at this totally nonviolently, but I come down on the side of "there comes a time when you tell a 2.5yo "This is not yours, you cannot keep it." and you remove it from them as physically gently as you can.

:


I think people are losing sight of the fact that this incident occurred outdoors, in the neighborhood, within the condo's community property.
This was not in anyone's house.
This was not during a play date.

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#212 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
It's happened several times before with the two of them, but it's usually more forceful--she's playing a game and he takes the pieces and runs away, she's on a tricycle and he wants to use it and so pushes her off. So I'm not sure leaving this particular toy at home will completely eliminate this issue for us. But, I'll definitely try the substituting technique.
This makes it clearer - it's an ongoing interaction dynamic between the two of them. That, in itself, may have been a significant contributor to her reaction. It may be time to keep them apart for a while, at least until he gets past this behavior stage (it's a stage) and she stops feeling picked on by him. They may just not be compatible playmates right now.

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#213 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:30 PM
 
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This may be beside the point at this time but I was a bit taken aback that several posters thought term "hissy fit" implied that the little girl was being manipulative. (that by describing the dd's reaction as a hissy fit was somehow a negative characterization rather than a state of emotion) It may be my advanced age but I've always understood the word to simply mean an out-of-control episode, a tantrum or such. The word is derived in any case by the term hysterical which the op used to described her daughter's condition.

My own three daughters and myself have indulged in many hissy fits (many quite justifiable I might add!) when things just seem too overwhelming. And certainly no learning, bargaining or problem solving was going to happen until calm had been restored.

I'm well aware of the power of words however and in a sensitive state many comments cause unintentional offense.
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#214 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:33 PM
 
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Hissy fit is belittling, but the biggest problem was people assuming she was doing it on purpose to manipulate or that she "chose" to do that.

When I cry, especially when it is to the point of hysterics, it is not something I choose or control.

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#215 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by the_lissa View Post
Hissy fit is belittling, but the biggest problem was people assuming she was doing it on purpose to manipulate or that she "chose" to do that.

When I cry, especially when it is to the point of hysterics, it is not something I choose or control.
Absolutely! but that's what I was getting at. I have never thought of a hissy fit as belittling or negative just a time of out of control emotion. We all have had those episodes even as adults and I can tell you I would never choose to feel that way!
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#216 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:41 PM
 
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the_lisa, where did you see manipulation assumed? I can't seem to find any but there are such a huge number of postings since this began.
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#217 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The poster admitted that it was belittling and she apologized. I've appreciated her feedback and her integrity. I think this particular thing is a non-issue.
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#218 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:44 PM
 
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Post 55 is just one of many examples. Yeah it doesn't matter at this point.

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#219 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:47 PM
 
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Well, I'm glad for that rzberrymom! It is extremely hurtful to have your child mischaracterized! I hope that overall this has been a helpful experience.
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#220 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 10:56 PM
 
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It is extremely hurtful to have your child mischaracterized!
Amen to that!

Hey, Kennedyzoo....with all that wonderful experience you have in your siggy, what is with the low post count, hmmm???? I think you need to post a whole lot more so we can benefit from your experience :
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#221 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 11:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I'm glad for that rzberrymom! It is extremely hurtful to have your child mischaracterized! I hope that overall this has been a helpful experience.
Yes, it's been helpful. heartmama gave me some good words to use with the mama, and I think it's true that these two kiddos shouldn't be around each other until they get a bit older--tricky considering our neighborhood, but not impossible.

The other mama is the non-violent communication guru in our community, so I know she's aiming to practice some sort of consensual living with her son. After this whole discussion, it has occurred to me that CL works very well within a loving, patient family, but it gets much trickier when practicing it within the bounds of a larger community. 1) My DD is not in a close, loving relationship with this woman and so is naturally not reassured by her attempts to reach a sort of CL solution. And 2.) I'm not convinced it's possible for this woman to have the level of empathy for another person's child that is necessary in order to reach a suitable CL solution.

Anyway, thanks you guys.
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#222 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 11:12 PM
 
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Well, thank you Sunmama! I have been lurking for about 6 months but I'll try to poke my nose in a little more often!!! I just wish I had had this forum when I had little ones underfoot! But you're never too old to learn something new!!! At least I hope not!
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#223 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 11:24 PM
 
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Someone above already mentioned this, but it does seem to be more about the dynamic between these two particular children. With my, now 4.5yo, there are certain kids he still has trouble with on playdates. It's mostly ok now, but there are definite combinations that are more prone to conflict.

A couple of thoughts:

1. If this is a tight-knit community, is it possible to have some ground rules in community areas? That way, any adult can guide their kiddos (and other kiddos) under the same general rules. (i.e., no hitting/shoving/pushing/etc. AND these are community toys and will be shared.)

2. I would really work on empowering your dd to assert herself in these situations. I think this is done best with modeling it for her initially. I.e., "This is dd's toy and she would like it back now. Let's find something else for you" or whatever. Simply asserting your dd's desires will empower her and teach her how to assert herself in those situations. And, IME, it's absolutely fine to take the toy from the boy if he is unable to give it to her himself...this can be done gently.

3. In the case of pushing her off of the tricycle, I would be very firm that we do not hurt one another. If his mother didn't step up to do this, I'd have no problem doing it myself. I'm a firm believer in the "it takes a village" philosophy and fortuntately my friends are on board with that. If, indeed, these ride on toys are for the community then I would have the boy hop off the trike and ask your dd for a turn when she's done.


One other thought...I have a feeling he was much more interested in the reaction that was caused by this toy in his hands rather than really playing with it. I'm totally assuming, but based on the OP's presentation of this situation it sounds more like the dynamic between these two rather than the specific incident. It sounds like this child needs boundaries and limits and also needs help understanding how his actions affect others. From the sounds of it, his mama is doing him a disservice by her lack of response to his aggressive behaviors.

What a tough spot to be in! I would try to focus on it more from a community perspective. I would step in with other children when boundaries are being crossed. I think you can model that for this other mama...she might appreciate it. I get the feeling she might have NO idea what to do in these situations...she might just welcome your input and help with it.
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#224 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 11:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rzberrymom View Post
The other mama is the non-violent communication guru in our community, so I know she's aiming to practice some sort of consensual living with her son. After this whole discussion, it has occurred to me that CL works very well within a loving, patient family, but it gets much trickier when practicing it within the bounds of a larger community. 1) My DD is not in a close, loving relationship with this woman and so is naturally not reassured by her attempts to reach a sort of CL solution. And 2.) I'm not convinced it's possible for this woman to have the level of empathy for another person's child that is necessary in order to reach a suitable CL solution.
That's intense. I'm really curious to hear form the CL practicers here as to whether or not this fits with their understanding of CL. What happens when another person's rights/desires/etc. are sacrificed in order to appease the other? This seems to be the case with the toy incident. I'm totally baffled by it.

Just like all of us, she's probably working it all through as she's going along. If you can get some distance between her child and yours, that would probably be best for everyone for awhile. We've done that with friends' kiddos who just aren't able to socialize in a way that we're comfortable with...and that's ok. I spend time with the adults alone (when I can!) and I know that some day we'll be able to reconnect more often.

Good luck with it...what a challenging situation. You've give us all a lot to think about with this thread!
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#225 of 228 Old 11-28-2007, 11:44 PM
 
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No way...if one person is hysterical and screaming, "NO! NO!" then you can pretty much guess that they're not consenting to the terms. And suggesting things like she empathize with her son is *I guess* one *possible* solution--technically--but wtf? That's so out there, I can't even imagine. How could you suggest that to any hysterical person?? But again, I don't think this woman is as committed to these philosophies as she is to getting her son what he wants at any given moment--because if it's coming at the expense of others then it's *not* CL.
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#226 of 228 Old 11-29-2007, 12:00 AM
 
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...But the mama continued imploring my DD to have empathy for her son and to look at how important it seems to him and would my DD be willing to leave it with him. This went on and on and on..
I'm sorry if you already answered this. But how did it turn out? Did your dd get her toy, and if so, how?
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#227 of 228 Old 11-29-2007, 12:44 AM
 
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Wow - so much for going to be early tonight - just read this beginning to end and it was a great read.

Not sure anyone really needs my commentary on this but I offer it anyway:

Your DD was acting her age. The little boy was acting his age. And the other mother was, IMO, acting like a twit.

Sounds like it started off like a GD situation, but by the end she sounded like a powerless parent who was more interested in avoiding her son's upset than trying to solve a problem.

What would I have done? After staring at her in disbelief that she would suggest such an odd thing? Say to her "No... this is DD's toy and while I believe in teaching sharing, he's had his turn (because it sounds like it had been a little while...) and please get it back now." I likely wouldn't have taken it from his hands myself, but I would have made it very plain that it was time for her to be a grown-up.

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#228 of 228 Old 11-29-2007, 01:02 AM
 
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I'm sorry if you already answered this. But how did it turn out? Did your dd get her toy, and if so, how?
Here you go.

WOW. My blood is boiling just reading your posts. I don't know how you managed to stay calm in the face of that. When you said your daughter was so hysterical she was stuffing her fist in her mouth, I wanted to throw up : I'm really sorry you both had to deal with that. I think you've gotten amazing advice, and as usual, I so appreciate reading the intelligent and well-formed thoughts of the smart mamas on this board.

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