Grr... your punishment just crushed MY kid! - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:00 PM
 
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You cannot make decisions about your child's well-being based on whether or not someone else's feelings may be hurt.

I mean, I'm not saying you should do what you want and eff everyone else. But sometimes people are inconvenienced by my decisions, your decisions, anyone's decisions and it has to be dealt with.

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#122 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by savithny View Post
I've been wondering now about something.

Lets imagine a different scenario.

The best friend's mother is a hard-core gentle disciplinarian. The best friend has a little brother who is 3. And just before the party starts, the mother calls to say that Little Brother doesn't want to get in his carseat, so she'll be unable to drive Best Friend to the party.

(for the sake of argument, lets add that mother cannot find anyone on short notice to either watch little brother while she delivers best friend, or give best friend a ride in time to make it to the party)

Does that change anyone's answers about how you shouldn't let your discipline affect the enjoyment of others or prevent you from honoring social committments? Because it is her choice to not force little brother into the carseat that is causing best friend to miss this party.
She could call and the person throwing the party could send someone to get the "best man" if it was important enough to the kid with the birthday.

or the kid could be sent in a cab

or.......

I really wonder why is fun to make it sound impossible to actually take care of everyone involved.
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#123 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:16 PM
 
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No, she didn't RSVP in blood , and if you read my update, I've calmed down a bit. The BIG mistake was in not letting us know ahead of time. That was inconsiderate and would have given me time to prepare ds.

There's a larger debate about the value of grounding a child, but maybe that deserves it's own thread. I'm actually one of the less "consentual" parents around here. I do time outs. I remove toys that are causing bickering/that are being misused. I've pulled over to the side of the road and refused to drive because my kids are making too much noise. But somehow I don't "get" grounding a child.



That was part of my point. In THIS particular situation, my son placed a lot of value on his bf being there. More value than I think his parents realized. That combined with the questionable value of keeping him home from the party as a punishment, would lead me say that the parents should have considered the full impact of what they were doing. Not only on their son, but mine too. Unless you've got a true introvert who makes friends slowly because he's a bit delayed in his social skills (which bf's parents KNOW), you might not really "get it".
Sorry...that really wasn't even directed at you, rather at some of the pp's who are, IMO, blowing this out of proportion.

I do understand that it would be very disappointing, even if your child wasn't an introvert. Owen would be really let down if his best friend couldn't come to his B-day (esp if he was expecting him to be there!) and he is one of the most outgoing kids you will meet.

But there were people equating this to keeping the best man home from a wedding, etc, and I think that is an exaggeration.

I agree that she should have told you in advance. I really wonder if she didn't want to have to justify her decision, maybe she was worried that you would have tried to talk her out of it. That doesn't make it okay by any means, I am just wondering if that was her motivation for being so inconsiderate.
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#124 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:19 PM
 
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or the kid could be sent in a cab

or.......
with some other random stranger...

A cab? are you serious???? ALONE??? AT 6?? When this kid has been taking off on his own?????????
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#125 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:20 PM
 
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Oh Come ON that is the gist of this thread...an exaggerated version, yes., but still...
I can't imagine one kid not being there ruining such a nice party. And if it did I really don;t fault the family that didn't bring their child. My Goddess, did this woman RSVP in blood or something??!!

The op's son had other friends there at the party...it's not like this was the only kid invited.

The world isn't going to revolve around my child, introvert or not. I am not implying that the op thinks that, more like some of the responses to this thread are implying that.

I never had any idea that someone might place that much importance on my son's presence at a celebration.
I don't understand why you would want to exagerate what people are saying to make sound as if their positions were ridiculous.

The world does not revolve around this child. His feelings were hurt. That matters.

My presence at many occasions has been very important. I have a large and close family and have made huge efforts to attend events of significance to members of it, sometimes at a sacrifice. I'm a valued member of my family and community. I hope my dds feel that as they grow up. That it really matters if they show up.
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#126 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:21 PM
 
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A cab will take a child from point A (home) to point B (party) without making any stops. 6 year old children take cabs every day in NYC. I'm having trouble understanding what your point is.
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#127 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:29 PM
 
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with some other random stranger...

A cab? are you serious???? ALONE??? AT 6?? When this kid has been taking off on his own?????????
I think this was the hypothetical situation, not the OP or her friend's situation this poster was referring to.
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#128 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:29 PM
 
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A cab will take a child from point A (home) to point B (party) without making any stops. 6 year old children take cabs every day in NYC. I'm having trouble understanding what your point is.
Not MY 6 yo...esp since I have worked for cab companies and know what the cabbies in this city can be like. They don't do background checks or anything on them. In fact, the public school system here pays for some children to take taxis to and from school. The drivers that want to take school kids have to go through a pretty extensive background screening before thay can do it. The majority of the drivers at the companies I worked for (3 major co's) couldn't/wouldn't pass the screening.

There are A LOT of strange cabbies here. I cannot imagine just sending my 6 yo in a cab like that.

Definitely not safe!! You have NO IDEA who your kid is getting in the car with.
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#129 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:39 PM
 
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I tried to answer a hypothetical positing a mom with a 6 year old and toddler refusing a car set who had no option to call anyone to help and still wanted to get her kid to the party...

I'm afraid I'm unqualified to debate the relative savoriness of Oregonian cab drivers. I'll leave that to better problem solvers than me.
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#130 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 05:47 PM
 
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yeah...I thought that it seemed like a pretty far fetched idea

no one in their right mind would just put their 6 yo in a cab alone without knowing anything about the driver in advance.
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#131 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 07:13 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chfriend View Post
She could call and the person throwing the party could send someone to get the "best man" if it was important enough to the kid with the birthday.

or the kid could be sent in a cab

or.......

I really wonder why is fun to make it sound impossible to actually take care of everyone involved.
Sent in a cab??? Are you serious? You would put a 6 year old child in a cab by himself just so that he doesn't miss a party? That seems a bit extreme to me.

I think that the consequence for the child in the OP was fair and appropriate - if he didn't know that it wasn't safe to go somewhere without telling mom then how can you be sure that he would take care when crossing the street? With a stranger trying to lure him into his car. As parents we do what we have to to keep our kids safe, a punishment or consequence that works with your kids will not necessarily work with mine and at the end of the day all I want are my girls home and safe, if that means that they have to miss a party or event to help them learn then so be it.
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#132 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 07:31 PM
 
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Me too! As if children have no rights, only "privileges". :

I think stopping him from going to his friend's birthday party was an extremely harsh punishment. To call it a "consequence" doesn't change anything. The parents understood that this birthday party was a thing that they could really hurt him by taking from him. The fact that his mother went without him makes it even worse, I think.
ITA.

One thing I cannot abide is dressing up a punishment as a 'consequence' to make it sound OK. Ugh.

I personally think that not allowing a child to go to such a big thing as a birthday party is way, way over the top, especially for a 6 yo. It makes me wonder how tough your punishments have to get if you come out guns blazing at this age.

I'm also surprised to see how many people say that they'd do the same. I am starting to feel more and more alone as a parent who does not punish my children. Gosh, even my friends who do punish have never gone as far as stopping their kids going to a birthday party at that age. It makes my head spin.

There are a zillion other ways to teach a child not to disappear on you, without doing something like this.

And to the OP, I personally feel that it was disrespectful to your ds for his friend not to show up to the party. If I did punish my kids like this, which I don't, I would never do something that would disappoint another child. IMO that's just plain rude and uncaring. And if I did do that because I had no clue what else to do, I'd certainly call ahead of time and explain and apologise.

But then I think I'm waaaay different to the mainstream, and even to those who identify as gentle discipline here.
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#133 of 195 Old 05-01-2008, 09:14 PM
 
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She could call and the person throwing the party could send someone to get the "best man" if it was important enough to the kid with the birthday.

or the kid could be sent in a cab

or.......

I really wonder why is fun to make it sound impossible to actually take care of everyone involved.
That wasn't my point.

My point was to try to separate out the answers that were mainly disapproving of a "mainstream" discipline technique (grounding).

I think the answers here were twisting up two different questions:
1)What do you do when your need to discipline your child affects the enjoyment of others;
2) Is grounding an appropriate answer to a child running away.

I'm more interested in the first, and I was trying to come up with a hypothetical that got thoughts on the first question, since the second question has now been discussed quite thoroughly.

(and for the record, in my town, it would take a good 30 minutes to get a cab to my house if I called it, and many birthday parties are run by just the moms, who will not necessarily have someone right there to send out to pick up the Best Friend).

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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#134 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 12:18 AM
 
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I'm fascinated that the suggestion that a cab be called is so attractive to people as a thing to get ALL CAPITAL LETTERS ABOUT. Hey, it was one idea.

I usually avoid these kinds of hypotheticals because they lead more CAPITAL LETTER answers rather than helpful discussions.

I don't know what one would do in a family broken enough that the 6 year old sneaks out of the house to go to a neighbors who doesn't have the sense to make sure the 6 year olds parents know where he is who then runs away when the (presumable upset but very rational) parents arrive to take him home. I sure don't know what one would do if one also had a toddler who was capable of refusing the car seat for an hour when one had an important commitment...and of course the toddler suddenly developed the aversion with no warning so the parents couldn't anticipate it and allow enough time for a peaceful loading into the car and there are no support people in this family's life (trusted neighbors, friend, family) who could transport the 6 year old to the previous commitment and all the cabbies in town are insane child stealers.

Nope can't help you. Just grateful that I don't anticipate ever being quite so stuck.
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#135 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 01:24 AM
 
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I don't know what one would do in a family broken enough that the 6 year old sneaks out of the house to go to a neighbors who doesn't have the sense to make sure the 6 year olds parents know where he is who then runs away when the (presumable upset but very rational) parents arrive to take him home. I sure don't know what one would do if one also had a toddler who was capable of refusing the car seat for an hour when one had an important commitment...and of course the toddler suddenly developed the aversion with no warning so the parents couldn't anticipate it and allow enough time for a peaceful loading into the car and there are no support people in this family's life (trusted neighbors, friend, family) who could transport the 6 year old to the previous commitment and all the cabbies in town are insane child stealers.

Nope can't help you. Just grateful that I don't anticipate ever being quite so stuck.
Ouch!
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#136 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 01:51 AM
 
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with some other random stranger...

A cab? are you serious???? ALONE??? AT 6?? When this kid has been taking off on his own?????????
The cab suggestion was not for the OP situation where the child had been running away, but a totally hypothetical scenario - for the purpose of flushing out ideas, I think - involving a younger sibling who didn't want to get in the carseat. Would it be reasonable to have the imaginary 6 year old miss the party, or force the imaginary unwilling 3yo into his seat. A seemingly "someone wins/someone loses" situation for which I think that there are probably a million solutions, all depending on the exact circumstances and individuals involved. The cab solution might not work for most - for me, that wouldn't feel comfortable. But I absolutely would - in this hypothetical situation - call the hosts of the party, and let them know what was going on, and if it was necessary for my 6yo to be there someone could come get him. If not, then we can either go later or something else entirely.

I was just at a birthday party, where a child was picked up because his parents couldn't bring him, and his presence was desired. Not really a big deal. Nice tidy solution, everyone wins.

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#137 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 01:59 AM
 
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I don't know what one would do in a family broken enough that the 6 year old sneaks out of the house to go to a neighbors who doesn't have the sense to make sure the 6 year olds parents know where he is who then runs away when the (presumable upset but very rational) parents arrive to take him home. I sure don't know what one would do if one also had a toddler who was capable of refusing the car seat for an hour when one had an important commitment...and of course the toddler suddenly developed the aversion with no warning so the parents couldn't anticipate it and allow enough time for a peaceful loading into the car and there are no support people in this family's life (trusted neighbors, friend, family) who could transport the 6 year old to the previous commitment and all the cabbies in town are insane child stealers.

Nope can't help you. Just grateful that I don't anticipate ever being quite so stuck.
I know a woman whose son hates his carseat. Loathes it. It's a phase, he will get over it, and right now she's riding it out and trying to make things work, doing her darnedest to be totally present to him. To say that her family is "broken" because she has the patience to be with her son for an hour while he gets comfortable with the idea of getting back in his seat, instead of saying, "You know what? I'm the grown up and you will do what I say!" with some physical manhandling into his seat. My kids have always been fairly cooperative with their carseats - less some times than others - but um... to say that a 3 yo pitching a fit about a car seat and a mother trying to accomodate that is somehow a sign of a broken home isn't really fair. Manhandling a child into a carseat even if he is crying isn't exactly an example of stellar parenting. It's desperation parenting at best. I dont' judgen those who have done it (goodness, I've been frazzled and rushed myself many times!) but I also wouldn't turn it around and judge someone who chooses to honor all her children's needs, even if they're "unreasonable" or not as "important" in the eyes of someone else.

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#138 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 03:15 AM
 
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Unless you've got a true introvert who makes friends slowly because he's a bit delayed in his social skills (which bf's parents KNOW), you might not really "get it".
I get it. Totally. It would devastate my kids if a friend didn't show at their party with no good reason.

Those with more laid-back kids won't understand, but those of us with introverts most certainly do. For my kids, it would just about ruin their party, and make it hard work for me too.

As I said in my previous post, anyway, I don't understand the 'grounding' mentality, especially at such a young age.

I'm sorry your son had to deal with this. My dd had to deal with something similar - a friend whose mother decided to stay at another event rather than do the drive to her party. It spoiled her party for her, and is something she still talks about. For some kids, a rec center and swimming pool is not the point, and they take these things hard. If your friend knows your son's personality, it was more than inconsiderate to do this. IF she really wants to impose OTT punishments, and believes that they would be effective, she could still have chosen something that did not upset your ds, imo.
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#139 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 03:30 AM
 
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I think stopping him from going to his friend's birthday party was an extremely harsh punishment. To call it a "consequence" doesn't change anything. The parents understood that this birthday party was a thing that they could really hurt him by taking from him.
I completely agree
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#140 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 03:33 AM
 
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ITA.

One thing I cannot abide is dressing up a punishment as a 'consequence' to make it sound OK. Ugh.

I personally think that not allowing a child to go to such a big thing as a birthday party is way, way over the top, especially for a 6 yo. It makes me wonder how tough your punishments have to get if you come out guns blazing at this age.

I'm also surprised to see how many people say that they'd do the same. I am starting to feel more and more alone as a parent who does not punish my children. Gosh, even my friends who do punish have never gone as far as stopping their kids going to a birthday party at that age. It makes my head spin.

There are a zillion other ways to teach a child not to disappear on you, without doing something like this.

:

I had to double check which board I was on for a second there
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#141 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 09:19 AM
 
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:

I had to double check which board I was on for a second there
omg seriously? Yes there are a zillion ways to deal with anything. Denying a birthday party for leaving home and refusing to come back, twice, is not the end of the world, and it is not necessarily un-GD. Let's not do the 'omgz is this babycentre????' coz really.

GD is not CL. GD can include parent imposed consequences.
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#142 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 09:39 AM
 
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GD is not CL. GD can include parent imposed consequences.
Without weighing in on the original discussion, because I truly see both sides, I have to completely agree with this. I see *a lot* of equating GD with CL on this forum. I know there is overlap, but they are not the same.

I'm GD, not CL. I've liked learning about CL on this board and I've discovered that, actually, a lot of what we do could be considered CL. However, philosophically, I'm not CL. I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.
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#143 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 09:42 AM
 
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I don't subscribe to CL but I also don't do parent imposed consequences anymore...there is no box for me either.

eta...I don't CALL it CL..but maybe that's what I am doing. I don't like labels much. Just clarifying.
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#144 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 09:46 AM
 
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I'm GD, not CL. I've liked learning about CL on this board and I've discovered that, actually, a lot of what we do could be considered CL. However, philosophically, I'm not CL.
Same here.

Quote:
I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.
ITA.
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#145 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 09:47 AM
 
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Actually I change my mind. I think it IS a VERY natural consequence....mom not feeling like taking a child out that is hard to catch to bring home.
Absolutely.
I would have warned you though (I think), so that you could prepare your son. It must have been a shock to him to see his friends and expect his friend, but then his friend isn't 'there'

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#146 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 11:46 AM
 
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Without weighing in on the original discussion, because I truly see both sides, I have to completely agree with this. I see *a lot* of equating GD with CL on this forum. I know there is overlap, but they are not the same.

I'm GD, not CL. I've liked learning about CL on this board and I've discovered that, actually, a lot of what we do could be considered CL. However, philosophically, I'm not CL. I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.


exactly
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#147 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 11:51 AM
 
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I'm fascinated that the suggestion that a cab be called is so attractive to people as a thing to get ALL CAPITAL LETTERS ABOUT. Hey, it was one idea.
Yes...a LUDICROUS idea

Evidently I am not the only one who thinks so.
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#148 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 12:41 PM
 
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I think it's great that the CL folks share their perspectives and their techniques, but let's be careful not to bash those seeking help with GD for not being CL.
Yeah, I'm not CL either. I'm just me, drawing from lots of ideas in my relationships with my kids and my partner.

Let's see, no punishment parents have been called wishy washy, permissive and espousing ludicrous ideas.

A parent whose child was hurt by someone else's punishment posted for support and ideas. The pro-punishment folks posted lots and lots of posts about how reasonable it is and how life is full of disappointments and it doesn't matter if the punishment hurts innocent bystanders.

FTR: I didn't say a family whose toddler is going through car seat refusal is broken. I described the entire hypothetical as presented complete with no resources and said I had no ideas how to help.

I have a 7 year old with sensory issues and a very opinionated 3 year old. I didn't bash anyone. I've lived through lots of car seat problems with the younger one on hot days while the older one was having trouble. It's no picnic. I have lots of ideas to share in *real* situations that have and have not worked for me.

My point is that if someone is interested in painting a picture of a family with no resources and a 6 year old that runs away from his parents and a completely made up toddler who won't get in the car and a fear of cabs I don't have any ideas how to help.

I'm bowing out because I don't get the impression that my words are serving to help anyone, just fun to play with. I understand that the value my family places on commitment, joy and kindness are not universally shared. Other families prioritize different things and work through their conflicts differently.
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#149 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 12:45 PM
 
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I'm bowing out because I don't get the impression that my words are serving to help anyone, just fun to play with. I understand that the value my family places on commitment, joy and kindness are not universally shared. Other families prioritize different things and work through their conflicts differently.
That is pretty condescending, and a really underhanded way to deliver an insult IMO. Just because people don't all do things your way doesn't mean they do not value commitment, joy, and kindness.
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#150 of 195 Old 05-02-2008, 12:59 PM
 
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That was part of my point. In THIS particular situation, my son placed a lot of value on his bf being there. More value than I think his parents realized. That combined with the questionable value of keeping him home from the party as a punishment, would lead me say that the parents should have considered the full impact of what they were doing. Not only on their son, but mine too. Unless you've got a true introvert who makes friends slowly because he's a bit delayed in his social skills (which bf's parents KNOW), you might not really "get it".
I've got an introvert without a lot of friends too. And, I get that it would be a big deal.

That said, I also think kids need to get to the point where they realize that even on their birthday they aren't the only person in the universe with needs. From the child's perspective he's sad his friend isn't there. That scenario would be just the same if the friend had the flu and sometimes people get sick and there is no one to blame. Part of life is that there will be disappointments and it is okay for kids to have some and to learn to deal. I agree it is sad for him and his feelings deserve to be acknowledged, but the reality is that we need to learn to do the best we can with situations and look for ways to still have fun. That would be my message to the kid. And, I should note I also post this as a parent of a child with medical difficulties - he does get sick sometimes and he does sometimes miss going to parties he wants to attend. That's sad enough for him without adding the burden that he's got to feel guilty for disappointing a friend. I appreciate the ways in which friends and their parents have been understanding of that.
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