Giving up punishments and rewards=kids who don't respect boundaries? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 76 Old 05-22-2008, 09:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jackson'smama View Post
am i supposed to expect good results by just continually saying "how do you think that makes noah feel?" and "it's not ok to ____. if you want noah to ____ then _____." and just parent like a hawk and try to physically prevent it until he doesn't want to do it anymore (or at least as much!).
part of me feels this is right. the other part of me feels like he isn't capable of understanding that it's wrong if i'm only telling him. there needs to be a more undesirable consequence than his brother crying or me talking to him and trying to tell him what to do differently next time. it's like i really like the notion of parenting now the way I want him to live as an ADULT rather than expecting the fruits of my labor to be seen right now, but there's also this notion of maybe he's just gonna learn it's OK to do all this stuff cause all that's gonna happen is somebody is gonna tell him it's not ok and he'll just think "BIG DEAL", kwim?
and as hard as it is for me to get a handle on this, my DH is REALLY not going for it. help!
Well, for me, when it's physical aggression I do more than just talk - I separate. I put my body between them, say that's NOT OK, and talk abotu why very briefly. But there's no timed time out thing, no shaming about it, and once the event is over and my body has provided a boundayr between them, I let them back to playing. If it happens again in a short time lapse, I'll remain for a longer period or redirect them to another activity. SO for me, it's not just words and feelings. There is a consequence, play is stopped and the aggressor is separated, and cools down for a moment. Which has been enough in my experience to stop it, and teach them to grow out of it. Yes, sometimes I do it 15 times in one day...and then other days I do it maybe twice. It's all a process, just like anything else they learn. purple_kangaroo brings up one of my favorite anti-spanking/punishment agruments, that parents who use those don't just do it once and never have problems again, so how is that working better than what I'm doing?

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So with that in mind, no, she doesn't have any boundaries at home, which IS why she responds so well to me. That's what I was meaning about respect. I see her as a capable, intelligent individual who can grow into a capable, intelligent adult, and I believe in her ability to make good choices, with the right support. This respect toward her produces her respect toward me. I actually ask her how she feels about things, and try to help her work through difficult issues, something that is not happening at home. So you were spot on.
Yay me! I mean, I'm not glad that I was right, that's a real shame for your niece, and she's lucky to have you. No boundaries and no guidance doesn't do anybody any favors, IMO. I have a couple nephews who were parented that way (or, rather, not parented), and they were not enjoyable to be around. One of my hugest peeves is that gentle discipline is often equated with no discipline, when the two are nothing alike.

Even the consensual mamas here who do decide to agree to their children's needs more than theirs still do guide their children; though we all might have different ideas about how much "control" the parent in the relationship should have, I think we all agree that our children do need guidance from us and leaving them to just do whatever they want without any input isn't doing anyone any good.


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#62 of 76 Old 05-22-2008, 09:25 AM
 
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I think in lots of parenting styles there is a time when the children are young that that's just kind of the case**. But I think a give-and-take mentality can very much be set up early on (even if it's not entirely equal), and later the pendulum starts to "right" itself.

Anyway, I don't think giving up rewards and punishments = consensual living. I think there are lots of families who don't reward and punish here who don't practice CL or aspire to.

Interesting thread! Thanks OP!

**ETA: I was referring to the posts that talked about children's needs/wants taking precedence. Darn that The4ofUs and her super fast hands!
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#63 of 76 Old 05-22-2008, 11:00 AM
 
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...trying to absorb it in small snatches btw managing toddler and infant

New to theories/authors mentioned. Trying to find solutions for very active, often impulsive/difficulty w/ "aggressive" behavior toddler.

btw - what is CL? I couldn't find it on the acronym list.
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#64 of 76 Old 05-22-2008, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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...trying to absorb it in small snatches btw managing toddler and infant

New to theories/authors mentioned. Trying to find solutions for very active, often impulsive/difficulty w/ "aggressive" behavior toddler.

btw - what is CL? I couldn't find it on the acronym list.
CL=consensual living
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#65 of 76 Old 05-22-2008, 04:39 PM
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I wish I knew some IRL people/families who RU or CL. It would help tremendously to see everyday situations, and how they are handled.

Hey, you do! Call me!
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#66 of 76 Old 05-22-2008, 07:22 PM
 
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Hey! Where have you been!!! I miss you and B!!:
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#67 of 76 Old 05-23-2008, 02:41 AM
 
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Well, for me, when it's physical aggression I do more than just talk - I separate. I put my body between them, say that's NOT OK, and talk abotu why very briefly. But there's no timed time out thing, no shaming about it, and once the event is over and my body has provided a boundayr between them, I let them back to playing. If it happens again in a short time lapse, I'll remain for a longer period or redirect them to another activity. SO for me, it's not just words and feelings. There is a consequence, play is stopped and the aggressor is separated, and cools down for a moment. Which has been enough in my experience to stop it, and teach them to grow out of it. Yes, sometimes I do it 15 times in one day...and then other days I do it maybe twice. It's all a process, just like anything else they learn.
I just got it.... I've wondered for awhile (since I heard about about AP) if part of why my niece listens to me is because she wants me to like her. I've never told her my love was contingent on her behavior, and I've tried hard to be positive, limit rules to things that are actually important, choosing my battles, etc., but I've still wondered, you know? And I just now got how being upset at your child and using that "upsetness" to make them realize they did something wrong is... shame. I suppose it seems really obvious, but that's how everyone else does it, so I never questioned it. I felt like I was doing a lot better than some people because I try very hard to determine if I want a certain behavior to stop because it's actually bad, or because it is just annoying to me. If it's the latter, I figure out a different way of dealing with it (I calm down, remove myself from the situation, or last resort, ask if she could please just do it somewhere else because I'm crabby right now). But I do the "upsetness" thing too, because I thought that's how you taught them what was acceptable. Wow, if you don't have shame to fall back on, this gentle discipline stuff is HARD, huh? Well, I've had a feeling something might be off for awhile now. I'm glad I finally figured out what it was!

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And you solve my message board problems as well??
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#68 of 76 Old 05-23-2008, 09:21 AM
 
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But I do the "upsetness" thing too, because I thought that's how you taught them what was acceptable. Wow, if you don't have shame to fall back on, this gentle discipline stuff is HARD, huh? Well, I've had a feeling something might be off for awhile now. I'm glad I finally figured out what it was!


And you solve my message board problems as well??
Aw, shucks.

Now, I personally think there's a difference between letting your child see that you're genuinely upset/aggravated/frustrated by a situation vs. purposely getting into the 'bad/shame' dynamic. My kids know when I'm upset with them...but I don't pile it on and correct them for every thing they do with a disappointed tone, KWIM? I have a friend who uses loaded language with her daughter about almost everything she does when she's misbehaving....and that's just not a dynamic I want with my kids. So sure, they know when I'm upset, but my upset is MY upset (even if it's something they're doing it to "cause" it) and it's not being used as a toodl to get them to behave.

Does that make any sense at all?

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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#69 of 76 Old 05-24-2008, 03:25 AM
 
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Aw, shucks.

Now, I personally think there's a difference between letting your child see that you're genuinely upset/aggravated/frustrated by a situation vs. purposely getting into the 'bad/shame' dynamic. My kids know when I'm upset with them...but I don't pile it on and correct them for every thing they do with a disappointed tone, KWIM? I have a friend who uses loaded language with her daughter about almost everything she does when she's misbehaving....and that's just not a dynamic I want with my kids. So sure, they know when I'm upset, but my upset is MY upset (even if it's something they're doing it to "cause" it) and it's not being used as a toodl to get them to behave.

Does that make any sense at all?
It does. I think I have personal issues/difficulties with this because of how I was raised, so I think that's what makes it more challenging for me. But saying it that way, I don't "pile it on," or tell her she's bad or hurting me, so I guess I could be a lot worse. It's just more subtle, I think. You seem very balanced, from what I can tell. Which books do you recommend for practical application, that support having boundaries and the parent's job as guider, if you will, for the child? Also, any that talk about how to start all of this with an older child? My niece will never live with me but I like to plan as though she magically will some day, and if that did happen, this child will be OUT OF CONTROL, and I think it will take quite some time/effort to help her start self-directing and to be a co-contributor in her own life, other than in making negative choices will no thought for the consequences. I'm just trying to be realistic, I guess (realistic about a situation that will never happen...:)
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#70 of 76 Old 05-27-2008, 01:54 PM
 
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You seem very balanced, from what I can tell. Which books do you recommend for practical application, that support having boundaries and the parent's job as guider, if you will, for the child? Also, any that talk about how to start all of this with an older child?
Wow, thanks!

I really like Anthony Wolf's "The Secret of Parenting"; it's more authoritative than Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting", but it's still within the realm of GD because it's about parenting without threats or punishments. I think both Wolf and Kohn go a little extreme on their viewpoints (Wolf a little cold and Kohn a little soft), but I find I lean more towards Wolf - so I take Wolf's ideas and soften them up a bit, which I find pretty easy. Wolf's book has tons of examples and scripts to use, which I think is great in a practical sense. I've recommended it to many parents and some it's really clicked for, others it hasn't. I guess it's that way with any book.

Take care!

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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#71 of 76 Old 05-28-2008, 01:00 PM
 
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Wow, thanks!

I really like Anthony Wolf's "The Secret of Parenting"; it's more authoritative than Kohn's "Unconditional Parenting", but it's still within the realm of GD because it's about parenting without threats or punishments. I think both Wolf and Kohn go a little extreme on their viewpoints (Wolf a little cold and Kohn a little soft), but I find I lean more towards Wolf - so I take Wolf's ideas and soften them up a bit, which I find pretty easy. Wolf's book has tons of examples and scripts to use, which I think is great in a practical sense. I've recommended it to many parents and some it's really clicked for, others it hasn't. I guess it's that way with any book.

Take care!
Ita. all of it.
I read SOP and thought it was a little harsh/cold. But, like The4OfUs, I softened it a little bit, and just used some of his suggestions when the alternative was that I was going to yell or shame, etc.
I am a much more gentle mom now than I was, and I'm very sure I owe that in part to SOP. Once I realized that its ok for me to insist on something sometimes, and how to insist without yelling, threatening, shaming, etc (iow, insist and stay very calm the whole time), I started being more easygoing about other things.
I think there are certain parenting personalities that it works really well for, and mine is one!

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#72 of 76 Old 06-17-2008, 03:10 AM
 
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Another fascinating discussion that I want to make sure that I can find again! (Someone please let me know if there's a way to mark cool threads without having to post in them--I hope it's not bothering folks that I keep doing this without adding anything to the discussion!)

Mama to Nell (11/15/06) and Maggie (10/9/10) . AFTER 2.5 YEARS, I AM AN AUNTIE!!! joy.gifHOORAY TEAR78 and welcome Anika and Brand New Baby Boy!!!!  Circumcision: the more you know, the worse it is; please leave the decision up to your son!

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Another fascinating discussion that I want to make sure that I can find again! (Someone please let me know if there's a way to mark cool threads without having to post in them--I hope it's not bothering folks that I keep doing this without adding anything to the discussion!)
Up at the top where it says "Thread Tools" - open that pull-down menu and click subscribe!
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#74 of 76 Old 06-17-2008, 04:12 PM
 
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Up at the top where it says "Thread Tools" - open that pull-down menu and click subscribe!
BRILLIANT--thank you!!!

Mama to Nell (11/15/06) and Maggie (10/9/10) . AFTER 2.5 YEARS, I AM AN AUNTIE!!! joy.gifHOORAY TEAR78 and welcome Anika and Brand New Baby Boy!!!!  Circumcision: the more you know, the worse it is; please leave the decision up to your son!

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#75 of 76 Old 06-17-2008, 05:17 PM
 
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We seek to live consensually. There is a lot to respond to in this discussion, but I am just going to pick one point.

Lots of folks think that CL=acquiescing to the child's preference. However, how often does your child go along with what YOU want, and without debate? Have you ever spent an hour shopping for clothes, fifteen minutes on the computer, 20 minutes doing dishes, or whatever else your priority may have been? Have you ever driven an hour, or waited in a line at the bank?

Our kids work with us all the time, I think. Sometimes we forget to notice.

I avoid language about kids "destroying" the house. They are just playing, and their priorities might differ from mine. We ripped down our kitchen ceiling last month - what does that look like to a toddler? "What makes a house grand, it aint the roof, or the door, if there's love in a house, it's a palace for sure."...
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#76 of 76 Old 06-17-2008, 05:20 PM
 
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However, how often does your child go along with what YOU want, and without debate? Have you ever spent an hour shopping for clothes, fifteen minutes on the computer, 20 minutes doing dishes, or whatever else your priority may have been? Have you ever driven an hour, or waited in a line at the bank?

Our kids work with us all the time, I think. Sometimes we forget to notice.
Thank you. I needed to hear this today. My kids need for me to hear this today. It's so true.
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