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Manipulation...am I missing something?

8K views 186 replies 34 participants last post by  stickywicket67 
#1 ·
Occasionally I read a post on MDC in which the poster refers to manipulating their child into doing certain things. Usually they say something like they don't want to manipulate their children.

I'll use my own childhood as an example. My parents didn't spank or yell. They said you must do your chores before you can play. You need to do the dishes before you can watch tv, an so on.

This really worked for us and we had a really peaceful childhood.

This is what some posters are referring to as manipulation.

Am I missing something? I never felt manipulated. I always felt like, ok, this is the way our family gets things done.

What is wrong with this style of parenting?
 
#102 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by nursemummy View Post
heartmama, first off, I have to say I love your posts in GD.

However, I'm struggling with this. If it were me in this situation, I would tend more to the punitive. After stating the bit about 'Our pets require care and love even if we're tired, as you do (which I liked BTW!)' I would move into 'Fine, if you don't want to take care of your pets, we will need to find a family who will'.

Especially at age twelve, I think they're more than old enough to just do something that requires doing. At age five, not so much. However, sometimes I think all this discussion and negotiating leads to ambivalence. If you are doing his chore for him, without repercussions - he learns that someone else will do what requires doing.

It's not like we have this option with regards to our children (and before I am jumped on, yes I realize that's a stretch). We talk all the time about how adults have free choice to do as they please, but there are certain expectations around behaviour.

This is a very interesting discussion. I will say, for the record, that we are a very GD household. We do not hit or yell, and I try to avoid manipulation. But here, there is *definitely* 'you do A or B will not occur' or 'if you continue to do A - then B will occur'.

oh i hear you! that would bug me too BUT (and i'm not heartmama so forgive me for interjecting my humble opinion here where it wasn't asked for
) why say it like that?
why go to the punitive? unless it really stresses you out to care for the pets and you really don't want to do it why even suggest giving the pets away? if you are really just tired and it's one more thing that mom has to do and it makes your day that much longer and the request for help is coming from that why not just say THAT? why make it the pets fault or the child's fault? why not say- i could use your help in feeding the pets. i'm tired and i have xyz to do too.
and if your child says "well, i'm tired and i don't want to either" then maybe it's time to decide as a family if having a pet is a priority. and that is a separate conversation not said with malice or anger or held over the kid's head as a punishment. it comes up when your intention is clear-

"i don't like being the only one who feeds the dog it adds a lot to my day and i feel overwhelmed with all the chores. can we make a schedule for dog feeding so it's more fair?"
kid says "no"
"ok then if i don't want to feed the dog and you don't want to either do we really want a dog? because that's part of having a pet"
"yes. i want the dog!"
"ok then how about you clean up the kitchen or you set the table or you take xyz chore so then i'm not too tired and then i'll feed the dog."
"no. i'm not trading chores mom. you have to do it all"
"well i'm not ok with doing it all so the only solution i see is to give the dog to someone who is willing to do the things that doggies need- feeding, etc. "

it's not a punishment- it's a solution. or a consequence, i guess. there does come a time when a child needs to understand consequences for not fulfilling their responsibilities. it's not punitive. it's reality. with the pet scenario the reality is living things require food if no one feeds it it will go bye bye- either it will die or before it gets to that point it will be removed and given to someone who can care for it. twelve seems old enough to *get* that and they probably will still need reminders. younger than that i don't think so.

we do have that option regarding our children. luckily most adults are responsible enough to care for their children. but some aren't and they are met with the "consequences" of their choices.
 
#103 ·
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it's not a punishment- it's a solution. or a consequence, i guess.
Yes - I agree. And I agree with what GuildJenn wrote too (thank you BTW!)

I absolutely don't mean I would launch into 'the pet is going' right away, but I do think that as adults, as humans, we do reach points where something has to change.

I could not go months (perhaps weeks) of 'No, I'm not feeding the pet mom' and continue to do it myself. There would be a serious intervention first.

We would try and address all the issues surrounding feeding the pet, rationally first - but I also would not be afraid to well, assert my authority.

In these discussions I often hear 'It would never get to that point, children inherently want to help, be part of the family, etc.' but I also think its' fair to discuss what happens when we reach that point of noncompliance.

I hope that's not considered a red herring (is that the appropriate phrase?)

For me, I have reached that point before, and have seen other parents as well. I don't think it's too far fetched. Some children do dig in their heels for the long run, what do you do then?
 
#104 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
I truly think it depends on the spirit in which it is done - the relationship - and the timing.

I used to walk home from school for about 40 minutes. I was also frequently bullied most of the way home.

As soon as I came in the door the demands would start (if my stuff had not been pitched out onto the lawn already). My mother's belief was that I had to do chores first, so it didn't matter if I was tired or upset or just needing a bit of downtime. It was do the chores or else. There was no room for negotiation. No space even to express those feelings had I been able to find the words.

As a result, as a teen, I frequently didn't come home and got into unsafe situations. I learned that for my mother a clean and tidy home (which incidentally was impacted by her hoarding) was way more important than I was. I seriously internalized that message.

To this day I fight the queasy, overwhelmed feeling I get coming in the door of my own home. I didn't learn "hey, everyone does chores," I learned "chores are worth screaming, yelling, punishing, disrespecting, throwing you out about." That didn't make me have a balanced view. In fact for a few years I had such a bad feeling about chores that my home was really disorganized.

Growing up home was not a warm and loving and safe place, it was a place of obligation. I did not learn that "chores needs to be done so let's do them together," I learned "chores are a thing that come down on you from above." There was no flexibility, no love, no responsiveness. It was very consistent. And very cold.

I do think doing chores together is a part of living together. I just think it is a conversation, not a demand. I do want my son to pick up his trains. I don't want to get into whether they are picked up at 4:15 or 6:25.
I'm sorry your childhood was stressful like that, but your sharing it sort of makes a point for me. I think there are "extremes" on both ends of the spectrum. In order to to understand what method is preferable it helps me to think of why the alternative is not desirable. In this case, it's abusing obligations, and being manipulative and coercive. And while your situation is unfortunate, it doesn't exemplify the type of obligations I'm referring to. Asking my 2.5 year old to help me pick up toys before we can go to the park is not even remotely similar to pitching her stuff out into the yard and being completely unaware of bullying.

So with that, I pose the question again - why are obligations wrong? Why is it wrong to say "please pick up your toys or we can't go to the park". Why is it wrong to forgo the reasons and explanations when phrasing questions in favor of simply stating what you want to happen?
 
#105 ·
i'm agreeing with north of 60 here...how is having a sense of obligation a bad thing? i understand it's a different ballgame when it's an issue in a household where there are parents threatening to throw all your possessions on the lawn if they aren't put away properly by 3:35 pm. that's not what the majority of us are dealing with though, are we?
i mean, i am not joyfully cooking dinner tonight. there is really no joy in it whatsoever. i am OBLIGATED to make dinner so that i and my children will not go to bed hungry. i did not joyfully make the bed this morning and it is not with a joyful heart that i will shower tonight. everything i do is either an obligation to myself, my family/friends, or some part/all of society. i'm with north of 60 re: if we are constantly encouraging our children to only do what they want/feel like/feel joyful about/whatever, how do they learn that there are obligations in life? it seems we are setting the course for an adult who has a difficult time completing a project on time when it's "mandated" by a boss because said adult "didn't feel like it" at the time or didn't want to spend their time THAT way on that given day, or just didn't feel passionate about THAT specific project. are all of our kids supposed to be self-employed? tell me i'm wrong, please!
also, i'm not sure who responded to me stating that children inherently DO want to do what we want them to do (sorry). i'm confused. so are you saying that my ds WANTS to do the right thing but that 9/10 times he just doesn't know how or doesn't think about it or what? b/c in my house, it seems that for the most part, he's ALL about HIMSELF. i'd like to BALANCE his sense of self with a sense of respect for others and it seems we're just coming up with two extremes of either being super focused on self or being punitive and "manipulative" in some attempt to "get our way".
 
#106 ·
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Originally Posted by jackson'smama
b/c in my house, it seems that for the most part, he's ALL about HIMSELF.
I'm sure how old he is, but my daughter is 2.5, and I've come to the conclusion that toddlers are pretty egocentric. They don't have the reasoning capacity to be empathetic or understanding of other people's feelings, so having some long winded conversation about picking up blocks is practically pointless.

What she does understand are processes. Short ones. If I say we need to do A before we can do B, she understands that. What I'm hearing is that putting things into a process can be manipulative, though I haven't really read a reason why that makes logical sense yet.
 
#107 ·
well, that's weird! that was me you quoted, but it said "guildjenn". hmmm, anyway, he's 3 yrs 11 mos. i totally agree with the egocentric phase. so am i "correct" in saying that he is in a developmental stage where he seems to want to make himself happy - even at the expense of the family? it seems that way to me, but maybe i'm reading him wrong. an earlier poster said that children naturally want to please, and while i can see that he's happy when he's "made" me happy, i don't think he's at an age where he thinks about it that much yet - it's more of an after-the-fact sort of thing. rather than, i'm going to pick up my blocks now because it makes our day run smoother and everyone will be happier, it's more of a "oh, mom seemed pretty happy that i picked up my blocks without a ruckus and i'm happy that she's happy" sort of thing. wrong? i don't know...

and i agree with you about processes - seems to make perfect sense to say we need to do A before we can do B. no, i don't talk to my husband that way because he already knows. he's an adult. someone taught him at some point how to get along in the world and now it's his turn and mine to do the same for our sons, right? i don't need to say, if you don't mow the grass, a) the yard will look awful b) i will not be very happy about it c) the town will fine us etc....he already knows that. but if i WERE to say that to him because he'd let it go a few days too long simply because he "didn't feel like it", how am i hurting him? how is that different than saying to my ds, if you don't put your clothes on, we're not going to the library. my dh already knows not to go the library naked and i guess my ds still might wonder why it's not ok. it's my job to help him with that. what would be a better way? i don't see it effective to say a paragraph's worth of information about how he doesn't have to, but he can if he really wants to but it's not necessary but it would be beneficial but it's not required it's only if he really wants to. this is in NO WAY a hit on anybody who has said anything REMOTELY close to this in this discussion. it's an echo of north of 60's sentiment that we're hemmin' and haulin' around an issue when it doesn't seem like it would be detrimental to just come out and say "do this or we can't do that".
 
#108 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by jackson'smama View Post
so am i "correct" in saying that he is in a developmental stage where he seems to want to make himself happy - even at the expense of the family? it seems that way to me, but maybe i'm reading him wrong. an earlier poster said that children naturally want to please, and while i can see that he's happy when he's "made" me happy, i don't think he's at an age where he thinks about it that much yet - it's more of an after-the-fact sort of thing.
Absolutely. I totally think empathy is learned, which is why I, again, fail to see why it's wrong or manipulative to tell my daughter that stuff she does (or doesn't do) will make me mad/sad/upset/frustrated/happy/excited, etc. It's foolish to think that our actions don't impact other people's feelings, yet ambiguity toward children is desired because they can then form their own opinions and motivations? What does that model? It seems there are so many learning opportunities that are lost with this line of thinking, most especially critical and analytical thought. If the importance in doing a task is placed on whether or not you want to do it, or whether it brings a sense of joy, how does one learn to analyze an outcome? Especially if the response for not wanting to do something is lackadaisical?
 
#110 ·
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Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
Absolutely. I totally think empathy is learned, which is why I, again, fail to see why it's wrong or manipulative to tell my daughter that stuff she does (or doesn't do) will make me mad/sad/upset/frustrated/happy/excited, etc.
I think it can be very manipulative to put the responsility for our emotions onto a child's shoulders (or another adult, for that matter). It's also inaccurate. You can't MAKE someone feel a certain way. We can impact other people's feelings, but we're not responsible for them: they are.

It's the difference between saying:
"You frustrate me when you don't pick up your toys"

"I am frustrated when you don't pick your toys because I value a clean house"

The second example lets the child know that their behavior has an effect on you, lets them know what your values are, and lets them see you take responsibility for owning your own reactions. It lets them know that they can't pass off their own anger/sadness/frustration as somebody else's "fault".

Maybe if I was less stressed out about other things, I wouldn't be so frustrated about the toys. Maybe if my own mother had a different attitude about cleaning than she did, I wouldn't be so frustrated about the toys. Maybe if the toys were all soft and squishy and not pointy and sharp, I wouldn't be so frustrated about the toys. There's a whole lot of things that go into how I feel at that moment, and my children aren't responsible for all of them.
 
#111 ·
prothyraia I tend to phrase things that same way. "I feel (emotion) when you (whatever the action/behavior)." We've discussed the concept of taking responsibility for our own emotions quite a bit here. Still I'm not 100% certain that my child gets the difference in wording, but it's a fantastic reminder for me!

I think the idea of natural consequences comes into this. If my child dumps his milk on the floor after many reminders not to, I'm probably going to be annoyed. I can state that I'm annoyed without yelling or shaming, still the fact that I'm annoyed is natural and nothing to hide. It wouldn't be very authentic or healthy for me to stuff how I felt about it. Since my child's not afraid of being punished or blamed for my feelings, and he has all the information about how I feel and how his choices influenced me, next time he's free to act (if maturity and impulse control are present) with consideration for my feelings--without taking responsibility for them. At least, that's what I'm going for.
 
#112 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by prothyraia View Post
I think it can be very manipulative to put the responsility for our emotions onto a child's shoulders (or another adult, for that matter). It's also inaccurate. You can't MAKE someone feel a certain way. We can impact other people's feelings, but we're not responsible for them: they are.

It's the difference between saying:
"You frustrate me when you don't pick up your toys"

"I am frustrated when you don't pick your toys because I value a clean house"

The second example lets the child know that their behavior has an effect on you, lets them know what your values are, and lets them see you take responsibility for owning your own reactions. It lets them know that they can't pass off their own anger/sadness/frustration as somebody else's "fault".

right on! which is what i was getting at in my earlier post. if we are teaching our kids that their actions/behavior make other people feel certain ways then the reverse is true. other people will make him feel a certain way. it gives them too much power in one sense and then not enough in the other.
 
#113 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by jackson'smama View Post
how is having a sense of obligation a bad thing? ... i mean, i am not joyfully cooking dinner tonight. there is really no joy in it whatsoever. i am OBLIGATED to make dinner so that i and my children will not go to bed hungry. i did not joyfully make the bed this morning and it is not with a joyful heart that i will shower tonight. everything i do is either an obligation to myself, my family/friends, or some part/all of society. ... if we are constantly encouraging our children to only do what they want/feel like/feel joyful about/whatever, how do they learn that there are obligations in life?


what this teaches our children is to only be obligated to joy. if my day is only filled with obligations, i'm not living anywhere near where i could be. if my day isn't filled with joy, whether i'm doing chores, working for pay, or spending time with my friends, i don't want to be living. it's just not worth it. i'm no longer of the mindset that kids have to be quickly indoctrinated that the world is dark and hard. if my son's not afraid to be himself, to be joyful, his world will always be a good place.
:
 
#114 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by stickywicket67 View Post
right on! which is what i was getting at in my earlier post. if we are teaching our kids that their actions/behavior make other people feel certain ways then the reverse is true. other people will make him feel a certain way. it gives them too much power in one sense and then not enough in the other.
It seems to me, that it all equals out in the end. People can, and will affect other people. That's just living.
 
#115 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by caspian's mama View Post


what this teaches our children is to only be obligated to joy. if my day is only filled with obligations, i'm not living anywhere near where i could be. if my day isn't filled with joy, whether i'm doing chores, working for pay, or spending time with my friends, i don't want to be living. it's just not worth it. i'm no longer of the mindset that kids have to be quickly indoctrinated that the world is dark and hard. if my son's not afraid to be himself, to be joyful, his world will always be a good place.
:

I'm totally down with joy.
:

That doesn't mean that my day-to-day isn't filled with obligations that have nothing to do with joy, and everything to do with being a grown-up.
 
#116 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
I'm sorry your childhood was stressful like that, but your sharing it sort of makes a point for me. I think there are "extremes" on both ends of the spectrum. In order to to understand what method is preferable it helps me to think of why the alternative is not desirable. In this case, it's abusing obligations, and being manipulative and coercive. And while your situation is unfortunate, it doesn't exemplify the type of obligations I'm referring to. Asking my 2.5 year old to help me pick up toys before we can go to the park is not even remotely similar to pitching her stuff out into the yard and being completely unaware of bullying.

So with that, I pose the question again - why are obligations wrong? Why is it wrong to say "please pick up your toys or we can't go to the park". Why is it wrong to forgo the reasons and explanations when phrasing questions in favor of simply stating what you want to happen?
I'm not sure I think "wrong" is the right word.


For me, going to the park doesn't relate -- at 3-5 years old -- to cleaning up, is all. Actually going out to play and run around is a need I would prioritize before the toys being cleaned up (the times that he doesn't... most days, he does and it's simply not an issue). That's kind of how I relate it to what my mum did with us - the not considering the play/downtime as a need.

To me it's not that helpful to make a link between the two at this age (cleaning up vs. going out), and it creates a dynamic I personally am uncomfortable with. For me

With an older child I would feel differently. Or I might. We'll see.


Picking up on another post - there's the question of "do young children need training in how to meet obligations." Well, I think they do over their entire lives, but I personally am not sure that it is so all-fired important as we parents make it into especially in the younger years.

For one thing, responsibilities are complex things. I think the example was making dinner... yes parents have a responsibility to feed their children nutritious meals. But which is more responsible on a day when things are just not clicking: to cook a traditional North American Standard hot meal, perhaps resentfully, involving pots and pans, or to say "hey today is a hard day, let's eat veggies, fruit, cheese, and bread." Or cereal and fruit. Or order in. Or delegate to the other parent.

An adult has the choice. And in fact balancing different obligations against each other (an obligation to society vs. an obligation to keep quiet for a company, for example, or to protect coworkers' jobs) is really complicated and very much NOT about blindly following the obligation.

But frequently this is the kind of choice or decision we remove from our children. Is that really training them for actual decision making, or is this "children have to meet obligations" really a short hand for "do as you're told." It's fine to decide kids in one's family should do as they're told, but let's not pretend it's moral training of some kind other than that.

Also, delayed gratification is a complex set of skills and young kids don't necessarily have the emotional or moral development going on yet. What they are learning is "do what mum says." Which is fine, but quite naturally happens in children's moral development (and then they become rule based, and then around puberty they start to be able to negotiate more complex questions like "is it okay to steal food from a dumpster if otherwise your children would starve.")

So in brief when you say "what's wrong with obligations for our kids?" my answer is - I just don't think this particular kind is all that useful at the preschool age. I think the invitation to clean up, the routine of cleaning up, and family harmony is useful. But standing my ground the 10% of the time my son opts out to me is not that useful.
 
#117 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
For one thing, responsibilities are complex things. I think the example was making dinner... yes parents have a responsibility to feed their children nutritious meals. But which is more responsible on a day when things are just not clicking: to cook a traditional North American Standard hot meal, perhaps resentfully, involving pots and pans, or to say "hey today is a hard day, let's eat veggies, fruit, cheese, and bread." Or cereal and fruit. Or order in. Or delegate to the other parent.
It was me who made the "dinner-making obligation" argument. The reference I made was not so much a *today* I don't feel like making dinner issue. It was more of a *pretty much everyday* i consider this something i don't really want to do. the point is, it's an obligation no matter how you look at it - whether you make a huge from-scratch meal, order take-out, or serve cheese and crackers. i as the adult am still obligated to feed the family. i cannot delegate if i'm the only adult in the house. so, how did i learn that *this* is what i do? i don't think it's a given that every parent in the world sees something like this an their obligation - so how did those of us who do learn it?

You say an adult has a choice, but what is it? they don't have the choice to just ignore it and hope somebody else will do it (in the case of serving a meal). An adult doesn't have a choice in completing a project for work if they need the job to support their family. I do have choices in life as does my son, but we can't always have a multiple choice including d)none of the above for every single issue we face on a daily basis - whether we're 3 or 93.

And I agree that standing my ground and getting into power struggles with a preschooler is not the best approach to handling anything. Sometimes, it's just not worth a battle. But that doesn't mean that I (just me, IMO - not speaking for anyone else here) think it's wrong to have any expectations of my child until he reaches puberty.
 
#118 ·
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heartmama, first off, I have to say I love your posts in GD.

However, I'm struggling with this. If it were me in this situation, I would tend more to the punitive. After stating the bit about 'Our pets require care and love even if we're tired, as you do (which I liked BTW!)' I would move into 'Fine, if you don't want to take care of your pets, we will need to find a family who will'.

Especially at age twelve, I think they're more than old enough to just do something that requires doing. At age five, not so much. However, sometimes I think all this discussion and negotiating leads to ambivalence. If you are doing his chore for him, without repercussions - he learns that someone else will do what requires doing.

It's not like we have this option with regards to our children (and before I am jumped on, yes I realize that's a stretch). We talk all the time about how adults have free choice to do as they please, but there are certain expectations around behaviour.

This is a very interesting discussion. I will say, for the record, that we are a very GD household. We do not hit or yell, and I try to avoid manipulation. But here, there is *definitely* 'you do A or B will not occur' or 'if you continue to do A - then B will occur'.
I should have given more detail, because you raise good points.

What I wrote was describing my initial response, not the overall strategy of building responsibility. Especially with older kids, I think a critical tool is to give them useful information/set the example, and then get out of the way to see what connections they make on their own. With my own ds, if I made the statement you quoted me saying, in the spirit I described (not as a victim of his irresponsibility, but as me making a deliberate choice to make sure the animals were tended) and then simply walked away to feed the animals, his *internal* process would be ignited, because I got out of the way. Whatever he was feeling would simmer up to the surface. Based on experience I know with my own ds, he would not actually let it go more than five seconds. He would engage me back in order to deal with those feelings. He might offer more details about his reasons "But I'm tired!" or "But it's cold outside!" etc. Or he might get huffy, "FINE, I'll do it myself!".

Now, this is process--I'm not looking for perfection every day. But we should be making progress, and there should be a sense of fairness in the exchange. There will be bad days. So my initial response you posted, was addressing those 'bad attitude days'. There are even days when ds is really genuinely too tired or upset or whatever, and I do his chores without telling him, just to surprise him. Sometimes I do his chores as a surprise on a good day, so he learns how nice it is to surprise someone that way. This is all so important. You have to play every role, to be a really good teacher. You can't just "be the teacher". You have to get inside the process, you have to think about every way in which your child is not "getting it" and then ask yourself "What can I do that will ignite a feeling in them of "getting it". It is about getting them to that point of feeling responsible, of feeling good about that responsibility, of having internalized and owned the process as their own. That is the whole point. Not just that they do what they are told--but that their heart is in the right place towards their own actions. If they are focused on you--doing what you say, not making you mad, avoiding punishment or whatever--then it's all wrong. The focus should be "I'm doing this because I am a responsible person, and this is what responsible people do. If I don't do this, I make more work for others. That doesn't feel good. It feels bad to know my animals are waiting. But it feels good to know I've done the right thing. It feels good to do my share. It feels good to be part of a family team". People have posted about whether children should be made to feel responsible or do things out of obligation etc. For me these have never been relevant questions. I absolutely think a strong sense of responsibility and knowing one's obligations, and being able to do them willingly, is at the heart of a satisfying life. The most functional and capable people I know are usually those who have a well cultivated sense of responsibility. They are not resentful, afraid, or obsessive about it. They have balance. They can do what is expected with a good attitude, while also being able to engage in thoughtful dialogue about those expectations, and work to change them if they feel they are unfair, unrealistic etc. They understand the process behind responsibility--it is not a knee jerk habit, it is a conscious process.

So--back to the worst case scenario question--if he is really tired, I will offer to help, and then the next night remind him to start earlier. But if he made a habit of complaining of being tired, or huffing and puffing, I would not let it go on indefinitely. We would sit down, I would explain that it's a problem for me that he is complaining, and ask him to make a definite plan with me for doing this chore without a lot of huffing and puffing. Definitely, a worse case scenario option would be--we can find the animals another home that will welcome them. I wouldn't put that as a punishment, because that is beside the point, right? My point would be that as responsible people we are going to make sure the animals get what they deserve. Whatever decision we make will be in their best interest, and we will "end on a win". From start to finish, I want ds to see you don't just quit. Even in the worst case, you put your heads together and make the best possible decision within your power. I just want to add that in my experience with just this one child, it has never reached a point that we couldn't get back on track, and find solutions that were less extreme.
 
#119 ·
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Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
I'm totally down with joy.
:

That doesn't mean that my day-to-day isn't filled with obligations that have nothing to do with joy, and everything to do with being a grown-up.
YES! i'm not saying i hate doing what i do on a daily basis. what i am saying is that we all have to do things that are not at the top of the "that's my favorite thing to do" list.

so, if we don't start cultivating the notion in our children that life works in certain ways, are we just expecting them to "pick up on it" at some point in life? that's my question. if (general) you don't start teaching children that there are things called responsibilities and expectations or whatever - not expecting perfection or consistent 100% compliance - but at least starting down that path at an early age, do you just believe that one magical day it clicks and they say "oh, i will take all my laundry to the laundry room because that's where we do our laundry". or if they see you going fully clothed outside that one day they'll stop objecting to getting dressed to go somewhere and until then, they can go naked if they want to go. or whatever....i've heard several times here that people would make an insistance in the case of safety such as carseat/bike helmet, but otherwise, it's up to the child. when does that stop? does it ever?

i am asking because i'm truly curious and trying to find my way. i don't want a child who is blindly "doing as he's told" and will someday turn into the person everyone calls a "doormat". i don't want him to be selfish or totally selfless to the point of resentment or exhaustion. but i also don't want him to be someone who questions EVERY.SINGLE.PERSON who exhibits what he might perceive to be authority - i don't want the teenager who feels he doesn't have any rules to follow in life, for example. i don't want to portray to my children that the world is harsh and life is doom and gloom, but i also don't want them to believe that everything is always rosy and fun either. for example, i don't always want to wash clothes, but i do enjoy having clean clothes to wear, so i'm glad i fulfilled my obligation to do the laundry.
 
#120 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by jackson'smama View Post
It was me who made the "dinner-making obligation" argument. The reference I made was not so much a *today* I don't feel like making dinner issue. It was more of a *pretty much everyday* i consider this something i don't really want to do. the point is, it's an obligation no matter how you look at it - whether you make a huge from-scratch meal, order take-out, or serve cheese and crackers. i as the adult am still obligated to feed the family. i cannot delegate if i'm the only adult in the house. so, how did i learn that *this* is what i do? i don't think it's a given that every parent in the world sees something like this an their obligation - so how did those of us who do learn it?

You say an adult has a choice, but what is it? they don't have the choice to just ignore it and hope somebody else will do it (in the case of serving a meal). An adult doesn't have a choice in completing a project for work if they need the job to support their family. I do have choices in life as does my son, but we can't always have a multiple choice including d)none of the above for every single issue we face on a daily basis - whether we're 3 or 93.

And I agree that standing my ground and getting into power struggles with a preschooler is not the best approach to handling anything. Sometimes, it's just not worth a battle. But that doesn't mean that I (just me, IMO - not speaking for anyone else here) think it's wrong to have any expectations of my child until he reaches puberty.
I don't think that it's wrong to have expectations either.

I think what we're discussing though is the response we have when those expectations are not met.

For myself I find it counterproductive so far to frame it as "if you don't feed the dog on Thursday you'll never learn to feed your kids." I don't think that's true, first of all.

I *do* think the broad aspects of responsibility are related. I *don't* think that punishing the lack of action at 5 pm Thursday is. This is definitely out of my personal experience where being made to do things at particular times actually hindered my willingness to do them.

And secondly, the truth is that there are a variety of ways of doing things. Some people buy elaborate contraptions that feed the dog, so that they can refill them at weird intervals. There just are lots of ways. I think sometimes when we insist on "the right" (translation: our) way of doing it we cut off the real ability to problem solve. Sometimes we don't. It's a balance.
 
#121 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by heartmama View Post
The focus should be "I'm doing this because I am a responsible person, and this is what responsible people do. If I don't do this, I make more work for others. That doesn't feel good. It feels bad to know my animals are waiting. But it feels good to know I've done the right thing. It feels good to do my share. It feels good to be part of a family team".
I LOVE THIS! how do you get there?
 
#122 ·
When it comes to chores, I don't really think that young children see obligation in the same way that older kids or parents do. My 2yo just wants to be included in everything. She LIKES the idea of spraying vinegar on the floor while I'm mopping and knowing where shoes go. Now, I'm not saying she does these things 'correctly' or consistently, but she does love to help and I'm hoping that by continuing to include her as she gains competency, she will not see joy and obligation as being at odds with each other.

There IS joy in obligations met and work well done!
 
#123 ·
Quote:
I LOVE THIS! how do you get there?
Well, I think a key is what I mentioned here:

Quote:
Now, this is process--I'm not looking for perfection every day. But we should be making progress, and there should be a sense of fairness in the exchange. There will be bad days. So my initial response you posted, was addressing those 'bad attitude days'. There are even days when ds is really genuinely too tired or upset or whatever, and I do his chores without telling him, just to surprise him. Sometimes I do his chores as a surprise on a good day, so he learns how nice it is to surprise someone that way. This is all so important. You have to play every role, to be a really good teacher. You can't just "be the teacher". You have to get inside the process, you have to think about every way in which your child is not "getting it" and then ask yourself "What can I do that will ignite a feeling in them of "getting it". It is about getting them to that point of feeling responsible, of feeling good about that responsibility, of having internalized and owned the process as their own. That is the whole point. Not just that they do what they are told--but that their heart is in the right place towards their own actions.
The process is going to look different depending on your child. What does *your* child need to improve their attitude towards personal responsibility?

An example: Ds is hypotonic (congenitally low muscle tone), which wasn't diagnosed for years. But it was clear that he lacked something in terms of physical competence. I recently read a description of life for the hypotonic child, and it said essentially that with hypotonia the child feels the force of gravity weighing upon their movements. A bit like running underwater. They have a greater awareness of resistance when they move, and it takes the fun out of work. Work is not fun for ds in the way it is for some children. Making chores a game by racing or hopping or skipping, it doesn't motivate him. It makes it worse. So it's especially important for me to build up his psychological satisfaction from doing work. Ds likes to prove he is important, competent, and valuable to the family, because he does struggle physically, especially compared to both his parents. So there is great verbal discussion/acknowledgement and praise for ds' work. I try to never miss an opportunity to point out when I am tired, or overwhelmed, and NEED ds' help. As in, really, truly need it. Kids know when they are doing something YOU could do better than them, vs. when they are doing something because a parent truly is unable to get it done. Ds really likes to be asked to step up and do extra because a parent is really tired. He just loves that, because it speaks to his heart, on a level that is personally important for him.

Finding things like that, working together in that way, seems to make the process mutually rewarding.

We also talk a great deal about the connections between "this and that". I point out (with pets) the way they have needs just like he (ds) has, in terms of being fed, cleaned up, feeling safe. Obviously ds knows this at age 12, but it still works well as a reminder if he needs one. People don't stop needing some level of engagement with others. Even adults have to work out problems, and sometimes have people say "Do you realize how that makes the other person feel?" etc.
 
#125 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
It seems to me, that it all equals out in the end. People can, and will affect other people. That's just living.
yes. in the sense of our understanding behavior and the emotions they bring up in other people, of course, "that's just living". acquiring empathy and compassion and understanding and cause and effect are a lot different than handing the power of our emotion over to others though.
there is a big difference between "you make me so mad when you pour paint on the rug..." (out of control) vs. "when you pour paints all over the rug, i get very angry". (in control)

this is a whole other thread though so i'll leave it at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
I'm totally down with joy.
:

That doesn't mean that my day-to-day isn't filled with obligations that have nothing to do with joy, and everything to do with being a grown-up.
but being a grown-up isn't just about "obligations". if it is then i must not be very grown up.


Quote:

Originally Posted by GuildJenn View Post
I'm not sure I think "wrong" is the right word.


For me, going to the park doesn't relate -- at 3-5 years old -- to cleaning up, is all. Actually going out to play and run around is a need I would prioritize before the toys being cleaned up (the times that he doesn't... most days, he does and it's simply not an issue). That's kind of how I relate it to what my mum did with us - the not considering the play/downtime as a need.

To me it's not that helpful to make a link between the two at this age (cleaning up vs. going out), and it creates a dynamic I personally am uncomfortable with.
For me With an older child I would feel differently. Or I might. We'll see.


Picking up on another post - there's the question of "do young children need training in how to meet obligations." Well, I think they do over their entire lives, but I personally am not sure that it is so all-fired important as we parents make it into especially in the younger years.

For one thing, responsibilities are complex things. I think the example was making dinner... yes parents have a responsibility to feed their children nutritious meals. But which is more responsible on a day when things are just not clicking: to cook a traditional North American Standard hot meal, perhaps resentfully, involving pots and pans, or to say "hey today is a hard day, let's eat veggies, fruit, cheese, and bread." Or cereal and fruit. Or order in. Or delegate to the other parent.

An adult has the choice. And in fact balancing different obligations against each other (an obligation to society vs. an obligation to keep quiet for a company, for example, or to protect coworkers' jobs) is really complicated and very much NOT about blindly following the obligation.

But frequently this is the kind of choice or decision we remove from our children. Is that really training them for actual decision making, or is this "children have to meet obligations" really a short hand for "do as you're told." It's fine to decide kids in one's family should do as they're told, but let's not pretend it's moral training of some kind other than that.

Also, delayed gratification is a complex set of skills and young kids don't necessarily have the emotional or moral development going on yet. What they are learning is "do what mum says." Which is fine, but quite naturally happens in children's moral development (and then they become rule based, and then around puberty they start to be able to negotiate more complex questions like "is it okay to steal food from a dumpster if otherwise your children would starve.")

So in brief when you say "what's wrong with obligations for our kids?" my answer is - I just don't think this particular kind is all that useful at the preschool age. I think the invitation to clean up, the routine of cleaning up, and family harmony is useful. But standing my ground the 10% of the time my son opts out to me is not that useful.

excellent excellent post!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackson'smama View Post
It was me who made the "dinner-making obligation" argument. The reference I made was not so much a *today* I don't feel like making dinner issue. It was more of a *pretty much everyday* i consider this something i don't really want to do. the point is, it's an obligation no matter how you look at it - whether you make a huge from-scratch meal, order take-out, or serve cheese and crackers. i as the adult am still obligated to feed the family. i cannot delegate if i'm the only adult in the house. so, how did i learn that *this* is what i do? i don't think it's a given that every parent in the world sees something like this an their obligation - so how did those of us who do learn it?

You say an adult has a choice, but what is it? they don't have the choice to just ignore it and hope somebody else will do it (in the case of serving a meal). An adult doesn't have a choice in completing a project for work if they need the job to support their family. I do have choices in life as does my son, but we can't always have a multiple choice including d)none of the above for every single issue we face on a daily basis - whether we're 3 or 93.

And I agree that standing my ground and getting into power struggles with a preschooler is not the best approach to handling anything. Sometimes, it's just not worth a battle. But that doesn't mean that I (just me, IMO - not speaking for anyone else here) think it's wrong to have any expectations of my child until he reaches puberty.

one always has a choice. as an adult we have many many choices. more so than a child.

we don't have an obligation to go work somewhere we don't want to just to provide for our families.

i never have had a dog because i knew along with a dog comes the responsibility of walking and feeding and vet bills and training and the trade off of a having a dog wasn't worth it to me. so i got a cat.


i didn't have a child merely out of some made up idea of what a responsible adult looks like. i had a child because i enjoy children and i wanted to experience that. part of the privilege (because that's how it see it) of having a child is providing the basics for him but how i go about that is still within my realm of power.

i think maybe children practice obligation/responsibility when they are at the age to be given and practice having privileges- a pet, driving, a paying job. i also believe they observe and absorb our attitudes about obligations. are we emotionally derailed or stressed out every time the car has to get the oil changed or is it just a fact of life? we model for our kids and share with them how things work... when you have a car (privilege) you have to get the oil changed every 3,000 miles (obligation). simple.

obligations in my mind don't equal "suffering". they just are. c'est la vie. that is life.

personally, i find obligations usually go hand in hand with joy. if i find i'm fulfilling more obligations than enjoying the privileges then my life is way out of balance and it's time for me to do something about it.
 
#126 ·
This reminds me of the NVC concept that others' actions can be a stimulus for our feelings, but never the cause. The cause of your feelings is you, what your inside thoughts are, how you interpret others' actions, etc etc.

NVC is big on not doing anything that doesn't bring you joy. I may not get joy out of cooking per se, but I do get joy out of my family eating 90% of our meals strict vegetarian, meals that they REALLY like, and mostly really healthy foods. It would be nearly impossible for us to eat that way if I didn't spend a bit of time cooking.

That also reminds me of something in NVC- a mom was in a workshop and said she HAD to cook, and she hated doing it. She went through the NVC steps and eventually decided that she wasn't going to spend so much time doign something she hated. Some time later, the workshop leader had a chance to talk to her (teenage, I think) son, who ended up being SUPER happy that mom stopped cooking, because now they could have family meals where everyone was happy.

Not saying that anyone else could, or should, do that. This thread just reminded me of it, and it was quite an amazing story for me to read. The mom felt obligated to cook, but really, a lot of people's needs were going unmet *because* of that feeling of obligation.

I really like what the pp says about adults having choice regarding our obligations. I think that makes a big difference to me.
 
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