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-   -   What are you refusing? (http://www.mothering.com/forum/361-january-2007/563997-what-you-refusing.html)

GoodMomma 11-21-2006 07:51 PM

With my first, I let the staff do whatever they wanted because I thought they knew best. Well this time, I'm a little different. I was wondering what other moms here planned on refusing certain routine things and why (Hep B shot, eye gunk, etc, etc..) Thanks for your input.

swtpesq 11-21-2006 08:03 PM

I need to do more research and talk to the pediatrician that I think we're going to go with, but at a minimum we're refusing the hep B shot (seems unnecessary) and delaying everything else for at least an hour...might refuse the eye gunk, too.

I need to find out more about all this because I almost died from a routine vaccination when I was 6 mos. old (I believe it was whooping cough), and my doula is concerned that the same sensitivity may be present in my baby.

I'm curious to hear what others have to say... :

earcher 11-21-2006 08:16 PM

we're talking baby care here right post birth???

With DD#1 I had no infant interventions. She was weighed and thouroughly examined (about an hour and a half after the birth) and she was given breastmilk. We had a short cord that broke during labor and if there were going to be hemmoraging issues there would have been - we were both excellent clotters.

I am planning the same thing with the twins.

Hep. B:
I will not allow Hep B. i am negative and we do not live in a high risk situation. The risks of injecting something "challenging" into a healthy infants immune system in the first days of life does not sit well with me. For me this has nothing to do with vax or no vax (that's another topic) I would NEVER do it by day three when the typical healthy infant returns home. The risks outweigh the bennefits for me and my family.


eye antibiotics: I have had one sexual partner, and have been with him for 13 years. I am fully aware that i am STD free and choose to decline eye antibiotics. If there is a problem with the infants eyes it is NOT STD related and can be addressed at that time. For me the risk outwieghs the bennefits.

Circumcision: If I ever get a boy I'll bring him home as he was made. even if I was going to circ. I wouldn't do it right away. I would want the baby's systems to stabalize and get feeding off to a solid start.

Vitamin K: I would turn it down in a healthy full term pregnancy. If I was having a premie(s) I would probably give the Vit. K shot. As I understand ,by day three with nursing Vit K levels have risen and stabalized. Vitamin K is something I would do if I knew I was having a baby that needed immediate surgery or was a premie who be liekly having more interventions.

prophalactic antibiotics; I have heard some hospitals are now giving routine antibiotics to ALL babies to catch GBS babies: I would turn this down unless there were signs and symptoms.

Other than that...I'm a give my own bath, breastfeeding, rooming in, I'll do general baby care myself kind of momma

peaceful_mama 11-21-2006 08:17 PM

I'm refusing HepB shot and eye gunk entirely, probably Vit. K too--though that is in my plan as "please give only if requested" as that's one I would take if the situation warrants it.

I'm delaying all routine care (bath, weighing, etc.) until she's at least had a chance to nurse--I can wait an hour or 2 to know. I'm also refusing the nursery entirely. I had a horrible experience with DS and bottles--it's CRYSTAL CLEAR in this one's birth plan and in my notes from my midwife that she is NOT to have ANY binkies or bottles. I went as far as to specifically state that if she had a medical need to be supplemented (as in a need determined by her doctor and discussed with me, not the postpartum nurse's opinion), then she would be fed using SNS, cup, or fingerfeeding--whatever would be best for the situation. And I want a pump--she will NOT be given formula if I can possibly avoid it due to DS's problems with dairy. She is to be fed whatever amount I might get, no matter how little it may be. Babies only take an ounce TOTAL in their first day of life, according to the LC at that hospital that I spoke with, so yes, that little bit IS worth saving, thank you.
I plan to get written orders from her doctor requesting no bottles, no formula if at all possible, and if for some reason she absolutely MUST have formula that she get hypoallergenic formula only.

I am NOT going through what I did with DS, thanks.

meggles 11-21-2006 10:18 PM

I'm refusing most things as well. No need for eye drops (I and dh are STD free!) and no Hep B. We'll likely only do the Vitamin K if the birth is traumatic in some way and the baby is bruised. No bathing, as we may be in the birthing tub anyway. We'll do the newborn exam while the baby is on or near me, and only after we've had time to bond and try to breastfeed.

GoodMomma 11-22-2006 12:32 AM

Thank you all for your replies. I too am refusing the Hep B shot and the eye gunk for the same reasons that you all have given. As far as the Vitamin K shot, I still have to do some research on that but so far it seems unnecessary. I'm also going to hang a card in her hospital bassinet that she is BF'ed and will receive NO bottles or binkies! I'm haivng her at the same hospital my neice was born and the staff knew my sister was BF'ing and STILL gave the baby a binky. : I also won't let baby go anywhere without DH or myself present. Anyway... just wanted to see who is on the same page.

skueppers 11-22-2006 01:04 AM

We're not refusing any of the routine stuff (vitamin K shot, Hep B shot, eye gunk, examining/bathing/clothing the baby). While I think some of it is unnecessary and/or doesn't really need to be done right that minute, I also don't see any harm in it -- I mean, I know I don't have gonorrhea, but I'm also not concerned that the antibiotic ointment would be in any way harmful, so I see no reason to refuse it. I feel similarly about the vitamin K and Hep B shots.

At the hospital where I give birth, all of these procedures are done in the same room with mom, and rooming-in is standard on the maternity ward.

MacKinnon 11-22-2006 01:17 AM

We're waiving everything except Vit. K. and our baby boy will not be circed. Although we live in Michigan where it is law that all infants recieve the eye goop. The "law" seems to vary from hospital to hospital though... I had no trouble waiving it with DD but have several friends who haven't been "allowed" to waive it. It is actual law and does not have the same exemptions that vax do. Our hospital also does all procedures bedside and they wait for a while after birth. Rooming in is standard. DD was not out of our eyesight except for 5 minutes to have her picture taken just before we went home. This wasn't due to our insistence, they don't even have a nursery for healthy babies!

janerose 11-22-2006 01:46 AM

We are waiving everything -- vaxes, vit k, and the eye goo. We did purchase homeopathic vitamin K to give orally though. One drop each at 1 day, 1 week and 1 month. We got it through www.birthwithlove.com . In NY it is a CPS "offense" to waive the Vit K & eye goo, but our midwives are not concerned. They have had patients waive in the past & never had any issues come from it. But the oral Vit K is kind of a CYA. We *may* reconsider the shot if the birth is very traumatic, but barring that it's either the oral or nothing.

We're also making up our paperwork for our religious exemption for vaxing and will bring copies of that with us as well. It was pointed out to us that the same principle can apply to the Vit K & eye goop, so we're hoping it will cover all the bases if there should be any questions raised. We waived all those things with DD1 too, but it was in VT and frankly they don't really care over there. I didn't even have to sign anything!

Beyond that we keep the baby in the room with us at all times or one of us escorts the baby to the nursery if they need to go there for some reason. We are VERY firm about having our child never leave our sight! All routine newborn procedures are done bedside and on the mother's chest. We are post-poning bathing. We will clean her up as needed later in the postpartum room and probably save the big bath until we're home. We only do cloth diapers too, so we request that the nursing staff NOT diaper the baby as it's something we'll do ourselves once we're settled in the post-partum room. We are having all the routine newborn blood tests done (which I'd like to point out actually *screen* for the blood disorders the Vit K shot is meant to treat...: ) as well as the hearing test.

Oh, and of course the standard no bottles, supplements, pacis, or artifical nipples of any sort.

Holly

mama.ky 11-22-2006 02:11 AM

I think our situation might be a little unusual- we are giving birth at the same waterbirth center with the same midwife as we had with dd#1, and many things are taken for granted there that aren't elsewhere (very little intervention during or after birth). I didn't have any "help" beyond getting suggestions from my midwife about different positions I could try when laboring.

We refused everything with dd#1 and will be with dd#2. Dd#1 actually never left my arms for the entire first 24 hours that she was alive, for anything, and my husband and I both treasure that special time with her. The choices that we made were certainly the best for us, and I'm happy to be able to repeat them.

niki_73 11-22-2006 02:44 AM

We are refusing everything except the oral vit k because i'm having a c/s, we gave it to ds too.

kalisis 11-22-2006 07:25 AM

We refuse everything. It's a homebirth, so kind of easy, but still, the mw's have to ask and we have to refuse.

None of it is necessary and the eye gunk can really burn their eyes, or so I've heard.

I'll refuse that first bath within 24 hours too that my mom insisted on with DS. - he didn't need a bath with Johnson's baby shampoo at 18 hours old!

earthie_mama 11-22-2006 01:37 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skueppers View Post
We're not refusing any of the routine stuff (vitamin K shot, Hep B shot, eye gunk, examining/bathing/clothing the baby). While I think some of it is unnecessary and/or doesn't really need to be done right that minute, I also don't see any harm in it -- I mean, I know I don't have gonorrhea, but I'm also not concerned that the antibiotic ointment would be in any way harmful, so I see no reason to refuse it. I feel similarly about the vitamin K and Hep B shots.

At the hospital where I give birth, all of these procedures are done in the same room with mom, and rooming-in is standard on the maternity ward.
I am interested to see what sources you found that show that there is no harm to any of these things.

I personally feel that any use of antibiotics is dangerous if unnecessary, as for the Hep B shots, the vaccine has KILLED babies, I would definately see that as a concern, the vitamin K I feel is unnecessary, and I believe babies have a low Vit K lvl for a specific reason.

Ultimately, each parent has to do their research and come to a decision they feel best. I just urge you to examine some of these issues more, unless of course you have done all your research, and heav made your final decision already.

peaceful_mama 11-22-2006 03:15 PM

mine said from a public health provider standpoint, she's not supposed to agree with my views on vaxxing, but as a mom she does (It came up because I asked her if there'd be any big danger in DS getting the chicken pox while I'm pregnant--I've had it so I figured not. We thought a friend had it but turned out not to be, darn...) She's also fine with no Hep B and wrote that in my chart as well as it being in my birth plan.

tempestjewel 11-22-2006 03:24 PM

At the birth center I won't have to worry about refusing things because most things are standard, but just in case I get transfered to a hospital...

We are doing oral vitamin K, not injectable. I really had a hard time with this decision, but reading the vitamin K insert that I asked for from my midwives made me more certain not to inject my baby with what is in it.

Eye gunk- well, here its a CPS offense not to have it applied, but the midwives will wait two hours and put a tiny amount on that can be quickly wiped away to avoid the CPS report. I may do that just so I have no connections with CPS even though there is NO reason for the eye gunk.

No hep B. I don't have it, and my baby will not be an IV drug user or sexually active at birth.

If its a boy, no circ, ever ever ever. This is one issue I just cannot see the "other side" on

Its standard at the birth center to leave mom and baby alone to bond for 2 hours before the newborn exam is done (unless the baby is in distress of course). If we do end up with a hospital transfer at minimum I'll want to delay all that stuff until I've successfully breastfed.

GoodMomma 11-22-2006 06:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skueppers View Post
We're not refusing any of the routine stuff (vitamin K shot, Hep B shot, eye gunk, examining/bathing/clothing the baby). While I think some of it is unnecessary and/or doesn't really need to be done right that minute, I also don't see any harm in it -- I mean, I know I don't have gonorrhea, but I'm also not concerned that the antibiotic ointment would be in any way harmful, so I see no reason to refuse it. I feel similarly about the vitamin K and Hep B shots.

At the hospital where I give birth, all of these procedures are done in the same room with mom, and rooming-in is standard on the maternity ward.
I didn't see any wrong in it either with my first. I've since looked things up (not saying you haven't) and I've changed my mind. Hep B is an STD....so there's no reason for every baby to get this shot, unless the mother has Hep B. I know my daughter isn't going to be having sex anytime soon, lol....so that's why I'm refusing it. Same with the eye gunk.... it's only needed after a vaginal birth and the mom has an STD. As far as long term effects of pasting it on/in their eyes, they don't know. Things have just become so routine and it isn't needed every single time.

GoodMomma 11-22-2006 06:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by janerose View Post
We are waiving everything -- vaxes, vit k, and the eye goo. We did purchase homeopathic vitamin K to give orally though. One drop each at 1 day, 1 week and 1 month. We got it through www.birthwithlove.com . In NY it is a CPS "offense" to waive the Vit K & eye goo, but our midwives are not concerned. They have had patients waive in the past & never had any issues come from it. But the oral Vit K is kind of a CYA. We *may* reconsider the shot if the birth is very traumatic, but barring that it's either the oral or nothing.
Oh great! I live in NY and had no idea it was going to be such a hassle to refuse these things. It's ridiculous! I'm going to talk to my OB about it at my next appt. Where in NY are you?

GoodMomma 11-22-2006 06:28 PM

[QUOTE=anniej;6601170]None of it is necessary and the eye gunk can really burn their eyes, or so I've heard.QUOTE]

My eyes are really sensitive... I can't even watch DH put his contacts in, lol. Makes my tears flow like a waterfall! I would hate to enter the world and all of a sudden have this gunk piled on my eyes. I remember when I had DS (by c/s BTW, so it definately wasn't needed ) they never asked or anything, they just did it!

Zaxmama 11-22-2006 06:44 PM

could someone point me to a link to find out whats CPS reportable in FLorida?? I would like to refuse everything... but I am having a csection and someone else is having vit k due to that.. may I ask why? not judging I am just curious...I want to be fully educated so I can battle any arguments.

mommy2boys 11-22-2006 07:22 PM

We are refusing everything we can. Vit K shot, neither of my other two had it. The eye antibiotic, no need for that. Circumsision, and hep b vaccination and anything else they want to impose on my fresh from the oven baby. I think that birth is tramatizing enough with out all the extras and want to keep things and simple and calm as possible.

niki_73 11-22-2006 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaxmama View Post
could someone point me to a link to find out whats CPS reportable in FLorida?? I would like to refuse everything... but I am having a csection and someone else is having vit k due to that.. may I ask why? not judging I am just curious...I want to be fully educated so I can battle any arguments.
My Ds had the oral vitamin k because he had a very traumatic birth, he was severely black and blue on his head, face and shoulders when he was delivered by emergency c/s, he was a posterior baby and i had PROM and was given pitocin which eventually was causing heart decels. Without Vit K your body doesn't clot, so the bruising could have caused him to bleed to death. We are going to give it to dd because she is transverse and my midwives said it is a more likely she will have bruising from being pulled out by c/s. The injectable one is said to increase the chance of leukemia by 80% but the oral is not, also i don't want to cause pain to my dd by injecting.

haydensmom1 11-22-2006 11:31 PM

www.cure-guide.com is an excellent resource for these topics.

anj119 11-22-2006 11:56 PM

I want to refuse the eye goop the vit k and the hep b too.
I asked my CNM how she felt about me doing that.
She told me 'Its just not worth it to try to refuse them.'
She explained that if i did try to refuse the eye goop or the vit k that the ped at the hosp would then call CPS and CPS would become involved.
She recommended that i take the corner of my gown and wipe the goop out of babes eyes.

sad.


-anj119

sorry spell checker is on fritz

earthie_mama 11-23-2006 01:23 AM

Wow! I'm glad its not like in Minnesota, with my first we refused the erthrymyocin sp? but he did have the vit K (I didn't know any better at the time) CPS was NEVER called, all I had to do was sign a form

anj119 11-23-2006 01:51 PM

I was surprised by what my MW told me, too. From my reading here at MDC, I had expected to meet some amount of resistance from hosp staff over refusal of the eye goop or vit k, but calling in CPS? I had never heard of such a thing! Boy, am i glad i asked my MW and boy am i even more glad that she was honest with me about what would happen.

At first, i thought... well, if they wanna call CPS, so what? let em. So CPS comes down to the hosp and i just explain to them that i am waiving the eye goop and vit k and i answer their questions and they go away. I was thinking... well, it sucks but i can handle it.

after reading these posts I've linked to below, i am either going home-birth or i am keeping my mouth shut at the hosp. period. they'll get no arguments from me if i should find myself there, and my babe there. the choice between babe leaving the hosp with her momma, or with the eye goop and vit k seems pretty clear cut to me.

i recommend that anyone considering refusing or waiving procedures that are standard practices of the hospital they birth at or are mandated by state law, should ask their doc or MW how thats gonna go over. It seems that some places are quite relaxed about it and other places..... well, to say that they are not relaxed is putting it very mildly. One would be in a far better position to defend oneself and ones babe by having the information before hand, to be sure.

Eye prophylaxis-our story

MI mamas faced with Eye prophylaxis or you child taken by CPS

I would not have batted an eyelash before i read these threads. Now that i have, i have blinked away more than a couple tears.

-anj119

earthie_mama 11-23-2006 02:50 PM

Absolutely sickening......

skueppers 11-23-2006 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodMomma View Post
Things have just become so routine and it isn't needed every single time.
Oh, I completely agree that some of these things aren't actually necessary for my kids. I'm just not bothered by them, and see no reason to make a fuss about something that I view as unnecessary but not harmful.

In the case of the Hep B shot, I think it's kind of silly that it's given to newborn babies when the mother isn't infected, but it's something I would choose for my child eventually anyway, so I don't have a problem with it being administered shortly after birth. I'm not concerned about possible negative effects -- while I realize that they do occur, they are also very rare.

As for the vitamin K shot, I'm not aware of any reliable reports of widespread negative side effects, whereas there do appear to be significant risks associated with insufficient vitamin K in newborns.

Regarding the antibiotic eye ointment, while I agree that systemic antibiotics should be avoided when they are not absolutely necessary (In the last two years, I have refused them for mastitis three times, and an ear infection in my child, preferring a wait-and-see approach), I feel that topical application doesn't present the same hazards.

I think in some ways, you could say I'm just not a "rock the boat" kind of person. When I see neither a significant harm nor a significant benefit in something that's part of the "standard procedure," I'm more likely to go along with it than not.

I've had a lot of unnecessary tests during this pregnancy -- an HIV test, two siphylis tests, a 32-week ultrasound, etc. -- and I tend to figure if it makes my doctor happy to follow the "standard procedure" on these things, it's fine with me. I'd rather spend my time and energy refusing things I really do feel strongly about, such as continuous fetal monitoring and routine IVs during labor.

tannersmommy 11-23-2006 05:02 PM

If we get to have our home VBAC, none of it will be an issue. But if we end up in the hospital, we say NO to:
Circumcision
Vitamin K
Hep. B
Eye ointment
Bottles, pacifiers, and anything other than breastmilk

We would probably refuse the bath, too, but that wasn't on my original list.

Hopefully (hopefully, hopefully, hopefully), we won't have to refuse hospital procedures, because we won't be there.

earthie_mama 11-23-2006 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skueppers View Post
and I tend to figure if it makes my doctor happy to follow the "standard procedure" on these things, it's fine with me. I'd rather spend my time and energy refusing things I really do feel strongly about, such as continuous fetal monitoring and routine IVs during labor.
Your doctor is very lucky to have you instead of me lol

I refuse EVERYTHING that I don't think necessary. But it would make me very nervous and uncomfortable to have those things happen.

janerose 11-23-2006 05:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodMomma View Post
Oh great! I live in NY and had no idea it was going to be such a hassle to refuse these things. It's ridiculous! I'm going to talk to my OB about it at my next appt. Where in NY are you?
I'm in NE NY in Plattsburgh. From what my midwives said it really depends on where you live for how much hassel you get. Like, down closer to the city it's a much bigger deal due to all the "public health" issues down there.

Our ped has no problem with us not vaxing & so I really can't see him caring about the vit k & eye goo. But we are bringing the oral vit K to cover our butts. At least then it looks like we're not TOTALLY insane if CPS was to get involved. Also, we would give the eye goo is CPS came in & was basically like, "Give it or we'll take them & do it for you." but otherwise no eye goo. Our midwives don't anticipate either scenario happening though. Like I said, they've had people waive in the past & never any problems.

Also, we're thinking that having the religious exemption paperwork made up for the vaxes will help cover all our other bases as well. People tend to get pretty nervous about stuff when you've got an offical piece of paper stating that something is covered under your religious rights you know?

Holly


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