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#1 of 66 Old 08-28-2009, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have just finished reading Vonderplanitz's book The Recipe for Living Without Disease.

It is compelling but I don't know if I can swing eating raw meat that much. Even though I was brought up in a hippy household with placentas in the freezer this book did make me do a double-take. I am not convinced though. Maybe I just don't want to be......

Does all of our food need to be raw? Haven't we been cooking food for a long time? Are there indigenous cultures that cook their food and still do well? (I just ordered WAP's book and I am about to tackle it so maybe that question will be answered)

Anybody doing this? I've read lots of rave reviews online but I would also like to hear a little of the "other side". I'm pretty sure that Vonderplanitz and Fallon have had a falling out (although this is not uncommon for Fallon).
Any thoughts?
I have hashimoto's thyroiditis so I'm thinking for myself this may help my tissues regenerate. I can say unequivocally that my kids will not go for this. Which means that if I do it I will be juicing, buying fresh, raw meat and preparing it, plus making sourdough bread and kvass and everything else under the sun. How will I have time?
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#2 of 66 Old 08-28-2009, 06:27 PM
 
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I have been on (and off!) the Primal Diet for over 11 years. It is not easy, but it is by far the healthiest way I know of eating. My kids are not on the diet, but they do consume raw dairy, eggs and one will eat raw fish.

Aajonus is a genius but not the "nicest" person I have ever met. But he tells it like he sees it and is quite non-judgemental! I have had one consultation with him and attended a workshop. DH has even visited his house in Malibu and he was gracious enough to spend several hours with him.

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#3 of 66 Old 08-28-2009, 08:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
It is not easy, but it is by far the healthiest way I know of eating.
What makes you feel it is the healthiest way of eating? Did you feel amazing when doing it?

Just interested!

Lauren, wife to my dear and mama to amazing River
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#4 of 66 Old 08-28-2009, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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the thing that I am not convinced of is; is he right? Is it all true what he says or a bunch of bull? How does he know that stuff? Like he says eating fresh veggies is really bad for you.
My great-grandmother lived to be 100 years old and was only unhealthy the last year of her life because she was in a nursing home (she fell and broke her hip rearranging her living room). Not to say she was in perfect health but pretty darn good. She didn't do any of the stuff he talks about. None of it.
It just seems too severe, too limiting. But then again I hear all these people who swear by it.
I don't know. Sorry, the guy has really got me thinking.....
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#5 of 66 Old 08-28-2009, 10:34 PM
 
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What are the guidelines for the primal diet?
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#6 of 66 Old 08-28-2009, 11:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by FairyRae View Post
What makes you feel it is the healthiest way of eating? Did you feel amazing when doing it?

Just interested!
I am generally a healthy person. But everyone, and I mean everyone always comments on how bright, healthy, great I look when I am on the diet.

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#7 of 66 Old 08-28-2009, 11:16 PM
 
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the thing that I am not convinced of is; is he right? Is it all true what he says or a bunch of bull? How does he know that stuff? Like he says eating fresh veggies is really bad for you.
He really, really knows his stuff. It is NOT a bunch of bull. The proof of the pudding is in the eating (as they say!). The man is in his early sixties and looks 15 years younger. But really the only way you can know for sure is to try it. I highly recommend attending one of his workshops -- he does them all around the country. Seeing him and hearing him in person is really clarifies the books.

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#8 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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What are the guidelines for the primal diet?
the primal diet basically consists of..
raw meat
raw eggs
raw dairy
raw honey
green juices
raw fruit

I think some of the main arguments for eating this way is that some people don't think the time we've been cooking is long enough to fully adapt to eating cooked foods.
Raw foods (except for vegetables, grains, raw egg whites etc) are easier to digest, are full of enzymes, higher in vitamins, nutrients, etc..
Even the WAPF reccomends eating raw foods, and I believe in NT it says to eat at least 50% of your food raw i think...
mercola also reccomends raw foods including meat and egg yolks
Numerous traditional peoples around the world eat plenty of raw meat, eg inuit, certain parts of siberia ( see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...051302252.html and http://englishrussia.com/?p=2409 )

I personally eat a high raw diet - meat, organs, fat, egg yolks, sometimes raw dairy, but not alot. I didn't have many health problems to begin with, but this WOE helped me put on weight (i was underweight before) and I always have plenty of energy, even if I dont have a good nights sleep, and can do intense exercise regularly (I eat very low carb, some days zero carb).

I don't really follow the primal diet as don't consume green juices or fruit, and very rarely dairy (i started eating this way before i'd heard of the primal diet) . I think its very natural..humans ate raw meat for most of our 2 million yr evolution...

I havn't read Aajonus' books but I've read articles and seen videos...I think he does come off as a bit of a nutcase sometimes, for instance he once claimed he had 300 heart attacks by the time he was 22...
and reccomends people who are intolerant to dairy to drink it at room temp (i believe if you are dairy intolerant you shouldn't be drinking the stuff).
Also, many people who have consultations with him are told the same sort of things - that they have heavy metal toxicity and should consume loads of eggs and raw butter to get rid of it. Some things are just too hard to believe.

Since you have hashimoto's thyroiditis it doesn't hurt to try it, to see if it would help your condition. If anything, eating mainly or all raw will boost your immune system and give your body a chance to heal, while providing the nutrients your body needs to heal
Plus after eating this way for a while I don't miss any foods, my tastebuds have adapted and I find the stuff really quite tasty!
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#9 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
 
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the primal diet basically consists of..
raw meat
raw eggs
raw dairy
raw honey
green juices
raw fruit

I think some of the main arguments for eating this way is that some people don't think the time we've been cooking is long enough to fully adapt to eating cooked foods.
Raw foods (except for vegetables, grains, raw egg whites etc) are easier to digest, are full of enzymes, higher in vitamins, nutrients, etc..
Even the WAPF reccomends eating raw foods, and I believe in NT it says to eat at least 50% of your food raw i think...
mercola also reccomends raw foods including meat and egg yolks
Numerous traditional peoples around the world eat plenty of raw meat, eg inuit, certain parts of siberia ( see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...051302252.html and http://englishrussia.com/?p=2409 )

I personally eat a high raw diet - meat, organs, fat, egg yolks, sometimes raw dairy, but not alot. I didn't have many health problems to begin with, but this WOE helped me put on weight (i was underweight before) and I always have plenty of energy, even if I dont have a good nights sleep, and can do intense exercise regularly (I eat very low carb, some days zero carb).

I don't really follow the primal diet as don't consume green juices or fruit, and very rarely dairy (i started eating this way before i'd heard of the primal diet) . I think its very natural..humans ate raw meat for most of our 2 million yr evolution...

I havn't read Aajonus' books but I've read articles and seen videos...I think he does come off as a bit of a nutcase sometimes, for instance he once claimed he had 300 heart attacks by the time he was 22...
and reccomends people who are intolerant to dairy to drink it at room temp (i believe if you are dairy intolerant you shouldn't be drinking the stuff).
Also, many people who have consultations with him are told the same sort of things - that they have heavy metal toxicity and should consume loads of eggs and raw butter to get rid of it. Some things are just too hard to believe.

Since you have hashimoto's thyroiditis it doesn't hurt to try it, to see if it would help your condition. If anything, eating mainly or all raw will boost your immune system and give your body a chance to heal, while providing the nutrients your body needs to heal
Plus after eating this way for a while I don't miss any foods, my tastebuds have adapted and I find the stuff really quite tasty!
Thanks for this response. I already do incorporate a lot of raw dairy in my diet and some fish and meat, plus lacto-fermented foods. I think that it would be appropriate for me to increase the raw meats and to perhaps do some juicing. I agree that it wouldn't hurt to try. But it freaks me out to think that I can't eat veggies or cooked food ever, or that scrambling my eggs and cooking them up is bad for me. So I have come to the conclusion that at this point I am going to increase the raw meat a bit but not make myself crazy. I sometimes forget that it doesn't always have to be all or nothing.
Especially when I read books like that, which are so cut and dried.
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#10 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 06:52 PM
 
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Thanks for this response. I already do incorporate a lot of raw dairy in my diet and some fish and meat, plus lacto-fermented foods. I think that it would be appropriate for me to increase the raw meats and to perhaps do some juicing. I agree that it wouldn't hurt to try. But it freaks me out to think that I can't eat veggies or cooked food ever, or that scrambling my eggs and cooking them up is bad for me. So I have come to the conclusion that at this point I am going to increase the raw meat a bit but not make myself crazy. I sometimes forget that it doesn't always have to be all or nothing.
Especially when I read books like that, which are so cut and dried.
Jimibell, every culture has some sort of raw meat recipe that is very traditional. But nowhere has there been a diet that is pure raw.
So, yes, eating some things raw is good, but things like crucifer veges, should be cooked to some degree, or they will wreak havoc on your endocrine system.

Paula, wife to Steve, mother hen to 38 , busy doing : TTC after 6
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#11 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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what are crucifer veggies?
I like to eat cukes, tomatoes, lettuce and bell peppers raw (as you can see, I love salad).
the rest I cook.
Vonderplanitz says to eat veggies in juice (raw of course) and to not eat cooked food at all. He says eating raw veggies whole is bad but I love my salads.
I like to eat squash, green beans, greens, beets (fermented), corn, potatoes, broccoli and others cooked.
He also says to drink veggie juice for breakfast. That sounds like a nightmare for me. I do metabolic typing and by listening to my body I've found that I do really well with a high protein breakfast; basically eggs and yogurt.
Just the thought of eating veggie juice for breakfast makes me dizzy. I think it would leave me shaking and weak and then hungry within an hour......
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#12 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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oh and raw carrots a little and herbs....love herbs in my salad....
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#13 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 08:03 PM
 
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what are crucifer veggies?
I like to eat cukes, tomatoes, lettuce and bell peppers raw (as you can see, I love salad).
the rest I cook.
Vonderplanitz says to eat veggies in juice (raw of course) and to not eat cooked food at all. He says eating raw veggies whole is bad but I love my salads.
I like to eat squash, green beans, greens, beets (fermented), corn, potatoes, broccoli and others cooked.
He also says to drink veggie juice for breakfast. That sounds like a nightmare for me. I do metabolic typing and by listening to my body I've found that I do really well with a high protein breakfast; basically eggs and yogurt.
Just the thought of eating veggie juice for breakfast makes me dizzy. I think it would leave me shaking and weak and then hungry within an hour......
Crucifers are things like cabbage, brussel sprouts, broc, caul., etc. Cole Crops.

I think your body and mind are already telling what to do.
You know what makes you thrive, and vege juice is not one of them.
Think about it this way.
If we were meant to eat veges juiced, don't you think that we would be able to go out to the garden and pick them that way?
Its certainly not wrong to juice them, but to claim that is the only way to eat them raw....well, thats going completly against tradition and nature.

From what you have written in the past, I would say you are doing very well with foods.
Read WAPs book, and then make a decision about changing anything further.

Personally, I eat plenty of salad veges raw.
I am careful about the ones that I know cause mineral blockage or depression of my metabolism.
I also eat lots of ferments.
We are enjoying the very best kraut possible right now, made with fresh Alaskan grown cabbage, which is very different from anything you can get in the lower 48.
I have also come a long way in not eating all my meat well done.
I have noticed a difference in the way I digest it, if its a bit rare.
Much better!!
However, that is as far as I can let that one go.
To gross to eat it raw for me, even though I am curious about trying Steak tartar sometime.

Paula, wife to Steve, mother hen to 38 , busy doing : TTC after 6
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#14 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 08:43 PM
 
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No snark intended, I'm actually curious:

How did primal peoples juice their greens/veggies?

I am not crunchy enough for this forum. Everyday I get a little crunchier though! :
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#15 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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You are full of wisdom. And how lucky you are to be up in Alaska! My SIL lives there and raves about being able to fish salmon and her dh going hunting. She doesn't have as much in the way of veggies though. But I guess it's best to eat what's locally available as it suits the climate. Not that I adhere to it 100%. But I do tend to try to eat locally grown food as much as possible. I do give my kids bananas because I'd rather they eat that than sugar (like in a yogurt shake).
Anyway, I'm off on a tangent. Thanks Paula. You are so right about the veggie juice thing. I had that same thought, how did people manage to juice their veggies 300 years ago?? The other thing I wonder about is; most of the degenerative diseases we suffer from now were not rampant even 150 years ago. And I know for sure that people weren't eating their meat raw all the time then either.
I am going to go with the flow. I can stomach some raw meats as long as I know they're from a place I trust. And sashimi is no problem for me at all. I actually really like it. It's hard to come by good stuff here in Chicago though....
I think that taste is important.
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#16 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 09:10 PM
 
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I am going to go with the flow. I can stomach some raw meats as long as I know they're from a place I trust. And sashimi is no problem for me at all. I actually really like it. It's hard to come by good stuff here in Chicago though....
I think that taste is important.
I think once you read WAPs book, you will find a good balance.
By the way, does your sister live in South Central?
You can PM with the answer if you like.
Be intersting if we already know each other, or, could

Paula, wife to Steve, mother hen to 38 , busy doing : TTC after 6
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#17 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 09:11 PM
 
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No snark intended, I'm actually curious:

How did primal peoples juice their greens/veggies?
Sally Fallons answer to the juicing thing is, where did Adam and Eve plug in their blender?

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#18 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 09:46 PM
 
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Just the thought of eating veggie juice for breakfast makes me dizzy. I think it would leave me shaking and weak and then hungry within an hour......
To clarify, Aajonus does not recommend juice for breakfast. He recommends consuming juice first thing in the morning, ie as soon as you wake up. You then need to wait 45 minutes before eating anything else, ie meat.

I would recommend reading his book A Recipe for Life to understand the practicalities of the diet.

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#19 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 09:49 PM
 
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Sally Fallons answer to the juicing thing is, where did Adam and Eve plug in their blender?
Actually primitive peoples likely did what chimps do, chew their veggies then spit out the fiber (which is largely indigestible). When raw veggie juice is not available, Aajonus recommends doing just his with celery.

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#20 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
 
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To clarify, Aajonus does not recommend juice for breakfast. He recommends consuming juice first thing in the morning, ie as soon as you wake up. You then need to wait 45 minutes before eating anything else, ie meat.

I would recommend reading his book A Recipe for Life to understand the practicalities of the diet.
That is the book I have. I wake up hungry and then I eat so for me that is breakfast. So if I ate juice first thing that would be my breakfast. I always think that the first thing you eat when you wake up is generally breakfast.
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#21 of 66 Old 08-29-2009, 10:21 PM
 
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That is the book I have. I wake up hungry and then I eat so for me that is breakfast. So if I ate juice first thing that would be my breakfast. I always think that the first thing you eat when you wake up is generally breakfast.
Why can you not drink juice, wait 45 minutes then eat? If you think that this would be so hard for you, why are you bothering to look at the Primal diet? I don't mean to be snarky, but if you are coming up with reasons why not to try it, just don't. With the diet, you really have to commit. Now, compromising and drinking raw green veggie juice sometime during the day and adding more raw meat/fish into your diet is great, but it isn't the Aajonus diet.

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#22 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 03:49 AM
 
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^Man! I would be pretty challenged to live a life with such a rigid mantra! It does seem like you're trying to be snarky, too. Are you sure you didn't mean to?

I'm not speaking for anyone here, but generally "healthy" people look at "diet" as "what they eat in their every day of life," not as "a diet" as in the all or nothing "I go on and off this diet that "works" great when I'm "on the wagon" but it's so restrictive I can't manage to live my life that way."

That latter view seems to drive a lot of people crazy, hence when many "diet experts" talk about "diets" now they stress the importance of making it a lifestyle change that benefits all over wellness in the long term and dissuade people from "going on a diet" that's extremely restrictive for the sake of some short term benefit only to "fall off the wagon" of rigid ideas into a pit of self-loathing and disappointment (I'm not saying that's what you personally experience when you "go off" this diet, just in general)

I think the OP is expressing what will and won’t work for her - I think that is a testament of true health and wellness. Pardon me if I don't find someone who "goes on and off a diet" as a credible testament to that diet

An interesting tidbit: to many people the "Primal" diet is a diet that mimics a "Paleolithic" diet, which includes:

meat
vegetables
nuts
fruits
NO DAIRY

e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo_diet
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

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Actually primitive peoples likely did what chimps do, chew their veggies then spit out the fiber (which is largely indigestible). When raw veggie juice is not available, Aajonus recommends doing just his with celery.
This would do WONDERS for my 3yo's manners! Seeing mom spit out celery all over the place. AWESOME

ANYWAY, OP, yes - humans have been cooking their food since the Paleolithic era, so technically it's primal to cook!

Wife to my of 10 years, SAHM to my 2 beautiful homebirthed girls Sydney (4/29/2006) Kennedy (3/21/2010) & 1 super Newfoundland
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#23 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 04:26 AM
 
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Sally Fallons answer to the juicing thing is, where did Adam and Eve plug in their blender?
Probably the same place they got their scoby

As humans invent/discover new ideas other cultures tend to use and adapt them.
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#24 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 04:57 AM
 
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I haven't read the book, but I feel skeptical about what's been described.

Raw meat? Is that tiny amounts or what? Human beings have SMALL jaws. We've evolved not to do a lot of chewing; our digestive systems aren't well suited for digesting much raw meat. Here's discussion with an academic; someone whose reputation depends on getting his analysis right rather than trying to sell you something:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...65&ft=1&f=1032

And what do you do about the salmonella & parasite risks? Cooking KILLS nasties in meat. And on other foods, too. Don't try a raw food diet unless you live in a rich country with a safe drinking water source.

Think of Lena Horne? She is famous for looking decades younger than her real age, and she probably eats the most conventional diet going.

My brother was on a raw foods diet for a while (vegan). He had great skin when he did it, I must confess. Unfortunately he also rather resembled a rabbit or a cow he had to chew his food so much. Later he became a crystal meth addict, so not really the best ambassador for his nutritional obsessions. :

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#25 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 11:15 AM
 
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That is the book I have. I wake up hungry and then I eat so for me that is breakfast. So if I ate juice first thing that would be my breakfast. I always think that the first thing you eat when you wake up is generally breakfast.

I make green smoothies (blend of greens, fruit and coconut milk--not juiced so not exactly what you're talking about) when I wake up and drink them *with* my breakfast (usually eggs). Maybe you could do this? I realize this is against the diet as described, but I love having green drinks in the am! YUM! :

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#26 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 11:21 AM
 
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I just would not be able to get raw meat down without gagging.

Mama to 9 so far:Mother of Joey (20), Dominick (13), Abigail (11), Angelo (8), Mylee (6), Delainey (3), Colton (2) and Baby 8 and Baby 9 coming sometime in July 2013.   If evolution were true, mothers would have three arms!

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#27 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 11:53 AM
 
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I haven't read the book, but I feel skeptical about what's been described.

Raw meat? Is that tiny amounts or what? Human beings have SMALL jaws. We've evolved not to do a lot of chewing; our digestive systems aren't well suited for digesting much raw meat. Here's discussion with an academic; someone whose reputation depends on getting his analysis right rather than trying to sell you something:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...65&ft=1&f=1032
Interesting article. I love raw fish, but I don't really care for raw meat, although I like a rare steak at times and traditionally made jerky which is dried at low temps so that it is still technically "raw." I wonder if the drying process denatures the proteins in the meat like cooking does. Anyone know?
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#28 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 11:56 AM
 
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^Man! I would be pretty challenged to live a life with such a rigid mantra! It does seem like you're trying to be snarky, too. Are you sure you didn't mean to?

I'm not speaking for anyone here, but generally "healthy" people look at "diet" as "what they eat in their every day of life," not as "a diet" as in the all or nothing "I go on and off this diet that "works" great when I'm "on the wagon" but it's so restrictive I can't manage to live my life that way."

That latter view seems to drive a lot of people crazy, hence when many "diet experts" talk about "diets" now they stress the importance of making it a lifestyle change that benefits all over wellness in the long term and dissuade people from "going on a diet" that's extremely restrictive for the sake of some short term benefit only to "fall off the wagon" of rigid ideas into a pit of self-loathing and disappointment (I'm not saying that's what you personally experience when you "go off" this diet, just in general)

I think the OP is expressing what will and won’t work for her - I think that is a testament of true health and wellness. Pardon me if I don't find someone who "goes on and off a diet" as a credible testament to that diet

An interesting tidbit: to many people the "Primal" diet is a diet that mimics a "Paleolithic" diet, which includes:

meat
vegetables
nuts
fruits
NO DAIRY

e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo_diet
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/



This would do WONDERS for my 3yo's manners! Seeing mom spit out celery all over the place. AWESOME

ANYWAY, OP, yes - humans have been cooking their food since the Paleolithic era, so technically it's primal to cook!
When you have read all Aajonus's work, attended a workshop or two and kept up to date with his newsletters, then we can have an intelligent discussion. Of course you are free express your opinions, but it isn't worth my time addressing your post.

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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#29 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 12:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Cavy View Post
I haven't read the book, but I feel skeptical about what's been described.

Raw meat? Is that tiny amounts or what? Human beings have SMALL jaws. We've evolved not to do a lot of chewing; our digestive systems aren't well suited for digesting much raw meat. Here's discussion with an academic; someone whose reputation depends on getting his analysis right rather than trying to sell you something:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...65&ft=1&f=1032

And what do you do about the salmonella & parasite risks? Cooking KILLS nasties in meat. And on other foods, too. Don't try a raw food diet unless you live in a rich country with a safe drinking water source.
Again, read his work and you will understand. FWIW you don't chew the meat ad-infinitum, you take it in small pieces and swallow, the meat breaks down quickly and easily. We actually digest raw meat more easily than just about any other food. It goes through in 3 hours. As for pathogen fear... what can I say, but read the books. As an aside, I have eaten raw meat for 11 years and never gotten sick. My DH has eaten high meat without any sickness. The Inuit lived on raw high meat for millennium.

Oh, and Aajonus isn't trying to "sell" his diet, he is a nutritionist, this is his life's work. Obviously, he has to make a living so charges for consultations, workshop, his two books and his quarterly newsletter. But he certainly isn't on financial mission to persuade people to eat his way. If you consult him, he will give you his advise. If what he says doesn't resonate with you, move on (or back).

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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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#30 of 66 Old 08-30-2009, 12:14 PM
 
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Interesting article. I love raw fish, but I don't really care for raw meat, although I like a rare steak at times and traditionally made jerky which is dried at low temps so that it is still technically "raw." I wonder if the drying process denatures the proteins in the meat like cooking does. Anyone know?
Even the low temperatures of drying meat will destroy some of the enzymes in the meat. The best way to make raw meat and fish more "digestible" is to soak it in lemon or lime juice.

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"If you find from your own experience that something is a fact and it contradicts what some authority has written down, then you must abandon the authority and base your reasoning on your own findings"~ Leonardo da Vinci

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