cod liver (A/D mercola controversy) question - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 74 Old 03-25-2010, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Why would we need to be protected from PUFA's? Isn't DHA a PUFA? That's specifically the main reason why I take CLO, because of the high amount of DHA it gives me and my nursing baby.

When CLO starts sounding more like a dangerous substance (after reading what Jane wrote and Mercola too) it makes me just want to give up on it all together. I still am not totally convinced to switch to GP (I have concerns about the purity/toxins in an unrefined fish liver oil still), and if truly only one brand of CLO (Green Pastures) is actually safe to take, then I start feeling like maybe I shouldn't take any at all if it is that big of a deal.

When I start having to think like a scientist to make sense of my supplements, something feels wrong!

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#62 of 74 Old 03-25-2010, 11:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nukuspot View Post
Why would we need to be protected from PUFA's? Isn't DHA a PUFA? That's specifically the main reason why I take CLO, because of the high amount of DHA it gives me and my nursing baby.

When CLO starts sounding more like a dangerous substance (after reading what Jane wrote and Mercola too) it makes me just want to give up on it all together. I still am not totally convinced to switch to GP (I have concerns about the purity/toxins in an unrefined fish liver oil still), and if truly only one brand of CLO (Green Pastures) is actually safe to take, then I start feeling like maybe I shouldn't take any at all if it is that big of a deal.

When I start having to think like a scientist to make sense of my supplements, something feels wrong!
Wait, wait -- there isn't anything scary in anything I've read. Are you all reading something different than I'm reading? My understanding, before and after reading the articles, is that A and D work in concert, each needing each other for use and full benefit in the body. In isolation, either of them increase the need for the other, and can cause toxic reactions without the other. So the idea is to eat them both, ideally as a part of foods that have balanced ratios built in, and get enough sunshine when you can.

So CLO, as produced by Green Pastures, is a food. The question about NN comes because of the processing involved, which does denature the vitamins, even if they add the original vitamins back in.

But if you are afraid that the NN doesn't have enough vitamin A, or has denatured the vitamin A, then just eat other things high in vitamin A to balance out the D you're getting from them, right? Just be aware of balance, that's all. Eat some liver to go with your NN dose.

FCLO has built-in balance, which is nice. But you could also get your A and D from a combo of liver and sunshine and other food-based D's: pastured lard, oily fish, pastured egg yolks.

I've read the story of a woman who started having vitamin A deficiency signs after supping large amounts of D in isolation. It goes both ways.

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#63 of 74 Old 03-26-2010, 07:58 AM
 
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So now should I stop taking my daily Vit D? I don't knoww If I get enough Vit A.

I do take 2 mL of FCLO a day and 4000iu of extra Vit D and was eating liver 1-2x's a week until I ran out of my 20 lbs I had in the freezer. Now I may not be eating it for a few weeks until I find some more. For Vit A I eat a yam, few carrots, tons of greens (all carotene sources) per day. Does this mean I should lay off on the Vit D?
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#64 of 74 Old 03-26-2010, 08:59 AM
 
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So now should I stop taking my daily Vit D? I don't knoww If I get enough Vit A.
From what I understand from the report of the Vitamin D Council (referenced by Mercola) the retinol form of Vit A may interfere with the absorption of Vit D, so we shouldn't supplement (only with beta-carotene). I guess getting it from whole foods like liver is a different story though, so do not worry.

Personally I take a big dose of Vit D from Mercola's Whole Food Multi Plus, along with beta-carotene. I do not eat liver or other organ meats (I just cannot stand the taste) and although I have not tested my Vit D levels I know that I did not have a single sick day this past winter, despite extensive travelling in the EU in the midst of the swine flu outbreak (and I'm pregnant).

As I wrote before, for omega-3 I take the Krill Oil, switched a couple of years back just to be on the safe side.
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#65 of 74 Old 03-26-2010, 09:11 AM
 
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I don't get sick either, rarely ever. The last time I was sick was when I had pertussis 2.5 yrs ago, and before that, I can't even remember. Even my ND remarked that he'd never seen me sick before the pertussis.
AND, my D has been low in testing for a few years now...... I'm finding it very hard to raise it, despite CLO, D + TONS of bare skin exposure sans sunblock.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.

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It is specifically because NN's levels of A are too low to protect against the polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA's) in CLO and balance vitamin D toxicity as addressed by Chris Masterjohn's article on "Vitamin A On Trial".
Exactly.

And it's the nice amount of A in the fermented CLO that protects against potential impurities.

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Originally Posted by nukuspot View Post
I still am not totally convinced to switch to GP (I have concerns about the purity/toxins in an unrefined fish liver oil still), and if truly only one brand of CLO (Green Pastures) is actually safe to take, then I start feeling like maybe I shouldn't take any at all if it is that big of a deal.
Did you see where Dave talks about testing in his 2009 article? Have you sent an email on the GP site? I know that the email goes straight to Dave himself. I'd love to hear what he says in response...

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#66 of 74 Old 03-26-2010, 09:14 AM
 
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SF's response:

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I think Dave can answer the processing questions but the reason we do not recommend Nordic Naturals regular cod liver oil is that it contains almost no vitamin D. But we do recommend the Nordic Naturals vitamin D clo.

Chris Masterjohn has addressed the Cannel/Mercola attack in a recent blog: http://www.westonaprice.org/blog/mor...in-a.html.html

Best, Sally
I don't see Nordic listed at all: http://www.westonaprice.org/Cod-Live...endations.html

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#67 of 74 Old 03-26-2010, 12:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nukuspot View Post
Why would we need to be protected from PUFA's? Isn't DHA a PUFA? That's specifically the main reason why I take CLO, because of the high amount of DHA it gives me and my nursing baby.

When CLO starts sounding more like a dangerous substance (after reading what Jane wrote and Mercola too) it makes me just want to give up on it all together. I still am not totally convinced to switch to GP (I have concerns about the purity/toxins in an unrefined fish liver oil still), and if truly only one brand of CLO (Green Pastures) is actually safe to take, then I start feeling like maybe I shouldn't take any at all if it is that big of a deal.

When I start having to think like a scientist to make sense of my supplements, something feels wrong!
You don't have to think like a scientist, you have to think like a traditional human, eating natural food which nourished many different people, with many different diets ... but all based on natural nutrient dense animal foods ... for centuries.

What is scary is the modern diets high in omega 6 fatty acids, low in omega 3 fatty acids and high in vegetable oils (except the natural oils palm, olive and coconut which are neutral omega 3/6). These vegetable oils encourage lipid peroxidization and free radical formation from PUFAs. Corn, cottonseed, soy, safflower, canola, and fish oils without the protective effect of vitamins A&D, cause the lipids to oxidize in the body and form free radicals. And drastically lower vitamin E levels. Which is just a modern scientific explanation supporting traditional diets which ate mostly saturated fats and little vegetable oils.

The problem is not a natural food like cod liver oil, the problem is our modern diet. Many people didn't consume cod liver oil, as previous posters said, getting their omega 3s and A&D from seafood, egg yolks, pastured butterfat, or organ meats, and even things which our modern tastebuds would reject: blood. The key is that the nutrients are essential but the kind of food is not. To our modern sensibilities, cod liver oil is much easier to most than the rest.

Quote:
While antioxidants protect against lipid peroxidation, consumption of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) raises lipid peroxides. PUFA levels can be low on a vegetarian diet if oils like olive oil or saturated coconut oil are staples, but cod liver oil, an animal product, is the only polyunsaturated oil that has been shown to provide essential fatty acids without raising lipid peroxide levels.

Polyunsaturated plant oils rich in essential fatty acids such as soybean oil,52 corn oil53 and the omega-3-rich perilla oil54 all raise lipid peroxide levels. It is not only heated polyunsaturated oils that raise lipid peroxides. Even fresh, unoxidized perilla oil stored at –20C and fresh, unoxidized, purified DHA and EPA--the omega-3 PUFAs found in fish oil and cod liver oil,--stored at –80C, mixed into the diets of rats immediately before feeding, raised lipid peroxide levels in tissues considerably--even when rats were fed adequate vitamin E.54

Cod liver oil, on the other hand, has been shown to inhibit lipid peroxidation. One study found that cod liver oil depressed drug-induced lipid peroxidation in mice under the same conditions by which soybean oil increased lipid peroxidation.52 Another study found that feeding cod liver oil entirely abolished the increased level of lipid peroxidation found in diabetic rats.55 In both studies, the depression of lipid peroxidation was related to a sparing effect on glutathione peroxidase activity, which was also the case in rats saved from a lethal dose of dioxin by vitamin A supplementation, suggesting that the protective effect of cod liver oil is due to its high vitamin A content
http://www.westonaprice.org/Dioxins-...ds-A-Case-for-
Vegetarianism.html
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#68 of 74 Old 04-30-2010, 04:25 PM
 
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Bumping.

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#69 of 74 Old 04-30-2010, 09:51 PM
 
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OK, I just posted this on the other two fish oil threads, so I thought I'd add it to this one too. We're trying wild salmon oil from Vital Choice. They make it themselves from their own catch, has all the original A and D in it. Has more iodine because it comes from the heads of fishes. Has less A than CLO, but about the same amount of D. EPA/DHA amounts are 240mg/220mg per 3/4 tsp.

A & D amounts are 2060 IU A and 340 IU of D per 3/4 tsp.

It's not fermented, which I'm sure reduces the benefits when compared to FCLO. But on balance, I'm feeling they're comparable, with the added benefit of extra DHA, iodine, and really high natural antioxidants (the same antioxidants as krill oil, actually). We also eat a lot of liver here, so feel good about getting extra A and K2 from that.

Plus, it's purity-tested. I just read something from Mercola that recommends Vital Choice salmon, saying he independently tested the fillets and they are low in or free of contaminants. I can't find the original article you guys are talking about that he wrote?
I've gotten the Vital Choice wild salmon filets and the canned salmon (in BPA free cans). I did see the salmon oil but I've been taking the Nordic Naturals CLO. Can you let me know how you like it?
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#70 of 74 Old 04-30-2010, 10:46 PM
 
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I've gotten the Vital Choice wild salmon filets and the canned salmon (in BPA free cans). I did see the salmon oil but I've been taking the Nordic Naturals CLO. Can you let me know how you like it?
We like it fine so far. It's much milder tasting than the fermented CLO. DH and I take the salmon oil, and we give the kids the FCLO, as a way of cutting costs while getting nutrition in all of us. The baby takes the FCLO off the spoon right now, but if he ever stops that (he shuddered at it the other day), I'll start giving him the salmon oil and I bet he can take that, with a chaser, for a while. It's pretty mildly fishy, and the fishiness does not stay in the mouth the way the FCLO does.

How did you like the canned salmon? I've heard folks say their salmon tastes WAY better than any other they've had.

I've not been burning as easily (or at all) in the sun this season so far, and I'm not sure whether that has to do with the increased Omega 3's in the salmon oil, or the lard that I added to my diet this year. Or both! But that's one change I've seen.

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#71 of 74 Old 05-01-2010, 05:58 PM
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Very interesting discussion, ladies. I'm all caught up. There's been much discussion of GP's FCLO and NN's CLO options. We currently take Carlson's CLO. I'm not quite comfortable with the insanely high levels of vitamins in the FCLO, and I feel like the amounts of vitamins, especially D, are too low in NN's CLO. After this discussion, I may be more open to the High Vitamin D NN CLO since I now know it's from a natural source. We may also consider some other fish oils. I do notice that when we get lax about taking our CLO, that's when we get colds.

I'm surprised by the relatively little discussion of Carlson's CLO in this thread, and I'm hoping that maybe we could get a little more. To summarize what's been said so far, Mercola used to say that he liked the balance of A and D (which I also like, keeping within the politically correct recommendations for Vitamins A and D), but now he's saying that all CLO is bad. It has also been noted that it tested free of contaminants. How do other people feel about Carlson's? Does anybody know if they use synthetic vitamins?
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#72 of 74 Old 05-01-2010, 09:10 PM
 
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Note, everyone gets plenty more vit D from the sun in the summer. So, maybe alternate to the lower vit D clo then?


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#73 of 74 Old 02-24-2012, 01:15 PM
 
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I know! This thread dropped off almost two years ago and I just read it all and was left hanging in suspense!  biglaugh.gif

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