i wish sally fallon.... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 40 Old 04-25-2010, 11:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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was as excited about breastmilk as she is about cow's milk! i watch her and she all too often mentions "the women who for whatever reason can't nurse....." making it sound like this is a widespread problem.

that being said, if you are one of the VERY FEW women whose baby would not thrive by exclusive bf, then I do think her formula rec's are the best alternative.

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#2 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 12:48 AM
 
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You're not the first to think that thought.

I was trying to promote Sally Fallon's work to a lactation consultant I know and she could not get past what she saw as Fallon's lack of credibility re: breastfeeding info. Disappointing.
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#3 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 03:28 AM
 
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I totally agree on this! The info she provides on breastfeeding is disappointing; she seems to promote cow's milk if the mom does not have the perfect (according to her opinion!) diet.

Cows milk is almost always an inferior option to breastmilk even for malnourished mothers, no doubt about that.

Whenever I tried to get friends to read her ideas they seem to almost instantly dismiss them the moment they read the breastfeeding advice

Too bad as I'm sure that Dr. Weston Price witnessed widespread breastfeeding in all these traditional cultures he visited; a species cannot really survive healthily in the long-term unless it consumes its own breastmilk in infancy.

We live in a culture where breastfeeding is not the norm so big organisations such as the WPF should encourage breastfeeding and not dismiss it if a mother does not have the "perfect" diet!
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#4 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 05:29 AM
 
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Yes! Yes! I just received my TF book and yikes was I surprised to read her take on breastfeeding. How unfortunate to make it seem that one's diet needs to be so perfect. Feels easier to me to eat well than to make the formula. There so much more to breastfeeding too... I'm planning to take the good and leave the bad. I wonder if she breastfed. I don't know anything about her though. I'm just wondering because that can make a different and biased perspective.
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#5 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 06:11 AM
 
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agreed
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#6 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 10:37 AM
 
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Yeah. It irritates the crap out of me.

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#7 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 10:52 AM
 
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mamaleche, for what I understand, she "couldn't" breastfeed, which I suspect has colored her whole perspective on the issue. But yes, it drives me nuts too. Breastmilk, in my opinion, is pretty much the most traditional of all traditional foods.

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#8 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 10:54 AM
 
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Her personal experience certainly biases her on this issue.

Perhaps Nina Plack might be a better example... http://www.ninaplanck.com/ She is very pro-breastfeeding.
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#9 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 11:52 AM
 
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Yes when I first read NT I was certainly disappointed with the breastfeeding info.

Was there ever any mention of breastfeeding by Dr. Price in his writings?

The WAP foundation really needs to promote breastfeeding more. It has such a profound impact on one's health... and teeth!

~Amanda~ crunchy, foodie SAHM to DD 8/14/08
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#10 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 12:13 PM
 
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ita. i can't really read her section on baby feeding in NT. it just irks me. but overall, she has hopefully helped 1000s of people feed themselves better, in general. love nina planck, she is completely pro-tf and also pro-bf!
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#11 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 12:22 PM
 
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Yeah, Nina Planck totally picks up Sally Fallon's slack on the issue. Love her stuff!

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#12 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 01:18 PM
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This has been hashed out so many times here, sorry I don't have a link to any of the old conversations, there were some good ones. SF's attitude and public statements about breastfeeding are very damaging to the WAPF as an organization, and turn away so many people. It's unfortunate that some people won't just take the good and ignore the bad, but it's equally unfortunate that there's any "bad" in the organization's writings to begin with.

MamaGwynn, in Price's book I only recall one specific mention of breastfeeding. It's in a photo caption where he points out the size of the child nursing, IIRC it's from one of the Polynesian cultures and is a mother with a toddler sitting on her lap nursing, the child appears to be at least 2 years, possibly older. This was one of the "healthy" photos, so he's commenting favorably. But I don't think he specifically said anything else about it in the book.

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#13 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 01:30 PM
 
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Her personal experience certainly biases her on this issue.

Perhaps Nina Plack might be a better example... http://www.ninaplanck.com/ She is very pro-breastfeeding.
My thoughts, too. I love Nina Planck - and she's breastfed 3 now (including twins). Her first baby nursed until he was 2, and I imagine the twins are still nursing. She has good things to say about breastfeeding.

Fallon just seems bitter about the whole thing, and that colors her opinion on it and recommendations.

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#14 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 11:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think WAP mentions that the babies in one group - perhaps polynesian as I also remember the photo of that great chunky baby - were bf till about one year of age. actually, perhaps it's the inuit.

Seriously, I think we should write an open letter to Sally Fallon. Rather than discouraging moms with a less-than-ideal diet from bf-ing, she should focus on encouraging them to eat better for both their babies and themselves.

Any mom eating fast food and the SAD diet it not going to be giving her baby raw milk and egg formula, she will use commercial formula.

Do we have any gifted writers in the group?

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#15 of 40 Old 04-26-2010, 11:19 PM
 
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Well, and a mother eating fast food and the SAD is still better off breastfeeding than feeding her infant WAPF's formula recipe - regardless of what Sally Fallon believes.
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#16 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 01:54 AM
 
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Well, and a mother eating fast food and the SAD is still better off breastfeeding than feeding her infant WAPF's formula recipe - regardless of what Sally Fallon believes.
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Very well said!!

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#17 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 12:53 PM
 
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Her personal experience certainly biases her on this issue.

Perhaps Nina Plack might be a better example... http://www.ninaplanck.com/ She is very pro-breastfeeding.
One of the things that irks me most about WAPF is their complete ideological "toe the line or else" approach to food. And sometimes, like breastfeeding, it is entirely opinion based rather than fact based. I don't like the way they criticize people who would be their natural allies just because they are not part of the WAPF.

I think there was a thread on here about this, but the review of Plank's baby foods book was entirely inappropriate and I think they even pointed out that it was Plank's fault that she ended up having a c-section. Yet the fact that Sally Fallon couldn't nurse is not her fault because some women really can't... I really cannot believe that even with their great diets all traditional people had perfect health, to me that doesn't take into account our fallen world.

That and they don't take into account that different traditional cultures ate different things. For example, I know for a fact that Russian peasants ate refined grains: semolina porridge is one thing that comes to mind.

If it weren't for the fact that I know for a fact that my family has eaten TF for many generations and that some of the health problems my siblings have are directly affected by SAD, I wouldn't have wanted to eat TF purely because WAPF really turns me off.
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#18 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 01:27 PM
 
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Seriously, I think we should write an open letter to Sally Fallon. Rather than discouraging moms with a less-than-ideal diet from bf-ing, she should focus on encouraging them to eat better for both their babies and themselves.
They have repeatedly attacked La Leche League and any lactation consultant who sent them a letter, so I believe that there's no way to listen to "just a group of mothers"...

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That and they don't take into account that different traditional cultures ate different things. For example, I know for a fact that Russian peasants ate refined grains: semolina porridge is one thing that comes to mind.
This is the other thing I don't like about them: they generalize too much! They do not try to adapt their guidelines to one's origins and tradition. Not all traditional people consumed sauerkraut and raw liver! For examples Greeks certainly did not eat these things so it does not make sense to me to eat them or to give them to my children. We'd be much better off to eat sheep's yogurt, kefir and naturally fermented olives that have been a part of the Greek tradition for centuries.

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I don't like the way they criticize people who would be their natural allies just because they are not part of the WAPF.
I often complain about this; for example they dismissed Nina Planck , Michael Pollan and recently kicked out Dr. Mercola just because he has a different opinion on CLO.
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#19 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 02:47 PM
 
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but the review of Plank's baby foods book was entirely inappropriate and I think they even pointed out that it was Plank's fault that she ended up having a c-section.
That was really my last straw with them. I hadn't put two and two together regarding Fallon's BF'ing vs. Planck's C-Section, but yeah, totally hypocritical.

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I really cannot believe that even with their great diets all traditional people had perfect health, to me that doesn't take into account our fallen world.
And I agree with this. I also do not appreciate their stand on family planning which really has a eugenic slant to it.
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#20 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 03:03 PM
 
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And I agree with this. I also do not appreciate their stand on family planning which really has a eugenic slant to it.
It absolutely does! The idea that people didn't used to have kids less than three years apart is ridiculous! While it is true that in some societies it is customary for the wife to leave her husband's bed until the baby is weaned, in many cases this occurs in societies with polygamy...

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They have repeatedly attacked La Leche League and any lactation consultant who sent them a letter, so I believe that there's no way to listen to "just a group of mothers"...
In other words, they excommunicate people enough that us uneducated, unenlightened mothers don't stand a chance

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This is the other thing I don't like about them: they generalize too much! They do not try to adapt their guidelines to one's origins and tradition. Not all traditional people consumed sauerkraut and raw liver! For examples Greeks certainly did not eat these things so it does not make sense to me to eat them or to give them to my children. We'd be much better off to eat sheep's yogurt, kefir and naturally fermented olives that have been a part of the Greek tradition for centuries.
It's funny, but the people who popularized raw liver were the Soviets who introduced it into children's diets along with weaning by 9 months (this was their effort at modernization). Every Russian cookbook (in Russian) that I have calls for cooked liver. There's plenty of salted fish, but no raw liver.
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#21 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 04:10 PM
 
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This is not to attack nor defend Sally because I was one of those mothers who couldn't nurse successfully AND whose child couldn't tolerate ANY of the homemade formulas. (yep, it's all my fault, I guess.)

I'm only interjecting because there's always misinformation being posted about Dr. Price's work, and I feel it's important to clarify.

Dr. Price's work isn't limited to refined foods vs. whole foods.
The criteria Dr. Price used for studying the primitive diets was that the people had to have
A-immunity to tooth decay and (meaning very low % compared to those eating modern foods. Normal development of faces and dental arches)
B-resistance to disease.

If the groups didn't meet those requirements, what would be the purpose of studying their dietary "wisdom"?

Yes, not all groups ate the same foods to one another, but the foods they all ate were nutrient dense and provided many times over the minimum daily requirements for nutrients (fat solubles, water solubles, minerals). They typically ate special foods prior to conceiving, during pregnancy and lactation. I agree that the focus should be to get mothers to eat better while they're nursing.

Similarities of the traditional diets;
http://www.ppnf.org/catalog/ppnf/Tra...milarities.htm
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#22 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 04:42 PM
 
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An added problem with the homemade formula focus is that there is no acknowledgment of the potential risk. The risk may be small but it is there and it's our job as mothers to make our own decision. I wrote something at the Ethicurean on this issue: Raw milk information.

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#23 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 04:42 PM
 
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This is not to attack nor defend Sally because I was one of those mothers who couldn't nurse successfully AND whose child couldn't tolerate ANY of the homemade formulas. (yep, it's all my fault, I guess.)

I'm only interjecting because there's always misinformation being posted about Dr. Price's work, and I feel it's important to clarify.

Dr. Price's work isn't limited to refined foods vs. whole foods.
The criteria Dr. Price used for studying the primitive diets was that the people had to have
A-immunity to tooth decay and (meaning very low % compared to those eating modern foods. Normal development of faces and dental arches)
B-resistance to disease.

If the groups didn't meet those requirements, what would be the purpose of studying their dietary "wisdom"?

Yes, not all groups ate the same foods to one another, but the foods they all ate were nutrient dense and provided many times over the minimum daily requirements for nutrients (fat solubles, water solubles, minerals). They typically ate special foods prior to conceiving, during pregnancy and lactation. I agree that the focus should be to get mothers to eat better while they're nursing.

Similarities of the traditional diets;
http://www.ppnf.org/catalog/ppnf/Tra...milarities.htm
I just want to clarify that I was not critiquing Dr. Price, but the WAP Foundation, which I think focuses too much on *specific* things that certain traditional societies ate rather than the general outlines which should then be adjusted and used by modern people based on their cultural heritage.

To be honest, I like Fallon more than many of the other writers for Wise Traditions. I really like Nourishing Traditions for the most part precisely because she is not ideological about food in it (using white flour for her pie crust, for example).

BTW, I have actually found the PPNF to be much more helpful and less judgmental than the WAPF. I'm not sure what the connection between them is, but PPNF seems much more actually research oriented and I really appreciate that. The vibe I get from WAPF is that it is a clique and you're either in it or you're not, whether or not you actually support TF and like the work of Dr. Price.

I have a friend who is religious about eating according to the guidelines of the WAPF and she has had two miscarriages. After her last one she turned to me and said "I feel like a WAPF failure!" and I find it bothersome that someone who is experiencing grief feels guilty from outside pressures.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense.
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#24 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 04:50 PM
 
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I have a friend who is religious about eating according to the guidelines of the WAPF and she has had two miscarriages. After her last one she turned to me and said "I feel like a WAPF failure!" and I find it bothersome that someone who is experiencing grief feels guilty from outside pressures.
My diet has been very good for some time. In fact, I attribute my diet changes to beating depression in my second pregnancy. As an interesting side note, that same second child was born with club foot -- here's a picture. I was in shock when it was diagnosed probably because a common factor is maternal diet. I got over it pretty quickly. For goodness sake. We have enough guilt as it is. Send your friend to that picture.

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#25 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 05:01 PM
 
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An added problem with the homemade formula focus is that there is no acknowledgment of the potential risk. The risk may be small but it is there and it's our job as mothers to make our own decision. I wrote something at the Ethicurean on this issue: Raw milk information.
It's funny because the first thing that came to mind when I had the opportunity to purchase raw milk was the fact that when I was little we always boiled our milk before drinking it. It's one of the most vivid memories of my childhood, stock pots full of milk on the stove and getting to eat the "skin" on top.

My mother was a doctor who treated many cases of brucellosis in people who consumed milk from their own cows. One of the reasons why I drink raw milk here in the States is because I live in a brucella free state and I trust our farmer. I would not drink raw milk otherwise. However, I would still rather buy raw milk from a farmer I know and pasteurize it at home than the alternatives.

That said, I am a big proponent of raw milk, but between raw milk formula and less nutritious breastmilk, I would definitely take the breastmilk even if I have to get a nurse or donated milk.

But, I think the real point of the WAPF is that we don't really have a choice. Agribusiness and the USDA has taken away the mother's right to choose what's best for her child, whether it is breastmilk or a raw milk formula. With all the propaganda out there it's lucky if mothers chose to nurse their children, let alone chose something other than manufactured formula!
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#26 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 05:06 PM
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I wish Price's work didn't so often get lumped in with some modern people associated with his name.

As for mommy guilt, my second child, who was born after we'd been eating a very nutrient-dense TF diet for 4 years, had defective baby tooth enamel, just like his big brother did (who was born before I ate TF although it was mostly whole, organic foods), and just like I did. The assertion that eating a certain way will guarantee physical and mental perfection (as defined by whatever group is in question, and no matter which way of eating we're talking about) in one's children or self is arrogant in the extreme, especially when results that don't fit that template are blamed on not implementing the recommendations properly. The WAPF's ridiculous "thumbs-down" review of Nina Planck's latest book is a perfect example of this.

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#27 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 05:33 PM
 
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I just want to clarify that I was not critiquing Dr. Price, but the WAP Foundation, which I think focuses too much on *specific* things that certain traditional societies ate rather than the general outlines which should then be adjusted and used by modern people based on their cultural heritage.
It's in Dr. Price's "Letter to his nieces and nephews" (which btw, I have a printed hard copy but can no longer find it online. ?? ) where he recommends foods that he thought they'd have better access to as Westerners (dairy, whole grains, fish, eggs, vegetables, butter, CLO). I think that's why the foundation focuses more on those.
When you read Dr. Price's work for yourself, you realize that you don't have to follow that exact formula, but can do a different variation. (yeah, more work than if they just outlined it)
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To be honest, I like Fallon
I spoke to her by phone and she recommended the formulas to me. I ended up in the ER with a 3 mo. old with full body hives. I don't hold it against her (much less now, 7 years after the fact) because at least she TRIED to give me a solution, which is more than any of the physicians ever did and I was desperate. But, yeah, she should've been more cautious, even though it was ultimately my decision to follow her advice.

Back to Dr. Price, I just wanted to clarify that eating some traditional foods doesn't equate eating a traditional diet where our nutrient requirements are met consisitently. It's somewhat of a sore spot for me because my relatives think that eating bone broths a few times a year counts as eating healthily. If it were, we'd all have better health than we do.

I apologize for steering off the original topic, so I'll stop here.
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#28 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 07:30 PM
 
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They have repeatedly attacked La Leche League and any lactation consultant who sent them a letter, so I believe that there's no way to listen to "just a group of mothers"...


...I often complain about this; for example they dismissed Nina Planck , Michael Pollan and recently kicked out Dr. Mercola just because he has a different opinion on CLO.
where did the wapf critisize LLL? just curious... i actually don't agree with LLL's nutritional advice for mothers either, but overall they are revolutionaries in defending childhood health and nutrition starting at he breast.
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#29 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 09:39 PM
 
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#30 of 40 Old 04-27-2010, 10:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have to say I was shocked when I read the nutritional guidelines in LLL's WAB. I feel the information is out of date and wonder if LLL felt pressured to NOT alienate women who know their diet is less than ideal.

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