talk me out of going vegan - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-31-2010, 08:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Awesome post JaneS. Thanks for all the great info and clarification.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:30 AM
 
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The China Study is based on crappy science. Check out the 180 degree health blog for more info.
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Old 06-01-2010, 12:09 PM
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I heard an interesting theory this past weekend that I'm going to have to look into a bit more that may explain the results of the China Study even if "bad science" doesn't explain it. If anybody has heard anything more on this, let me know. The theory goes that processed sugars/simple sugars feed candida in the gut causing yeast overgrowth which causes leaky gut, which causes absorption of entire proteins into the bloodstream where they should not be. For a person who is absorbing protein into their bloodstream, they would be better off eating less protein to experience fewer toxic effects from the protein in their blood. Better still would be to get candida under control and not be absorbing protein into the bloodstream in the first place. Therefore, any study of cultures who eat a lot of simple sugars and processed foods will show an increase in death correlated with an increase in protein.
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Old 06-08-2010, 05:28 PM
 
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After reading Weston Price's book and tiptoeing down the NF path, I just got around to reading Pottinger's Cats and had another aha! moment. It's a pretty short book and not just about cats; the 2nd half includes Xray studies of children and bone calcification levels based on diet. Really cool stuff that can't be duplicated today.

I found my daughter in Price's book and my son in Pottinger. It's an eerie experience when you can see the exact effect of the modern diet on your children, listed in the problems that show up in the 2nd generation of deficiency diets. It's enough to make me back away from processed foods and vegetarianism as well, redefine my relationship with food and meat, and give sincere, heartfelt thanks to the beast in my stockpot.

My mother used the 1964 Joy of Cooking, it has a bunch of gelatine recipes. I found my own copy used on Amazon.
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Old 06-09-2010, 11:13 AM
 
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I know for me, it has been best to go grain free. I have been following TF and soaking my grains and beans, but in my case, with my diabetes and blood sugar levels, I have discovered that grain free is best for me and my family. I am low carb, but I follow the Primal Blueprint means of carbs--I keep my carbs between 50 and 100 grams a day, typically around 75ish, and I eat a vast variety of veggies, but I do limit my root veg and tubers, although I do eat sweet potatoes, probably twice a month.

So, like JaneS said, I focus on animal fats, CO, butter and the like. I don't sit down to rib eye every night, wish I could! but I do eat eggs, chicken, beef with salads, almost every meal, including breakfast. When I do eat dairy, it is full fat. This is not Atkins, though, because I keep my carbs around 75 like I said, and I am not eating pounds of meat. I will eat a couple poached or hardboiled eggs with salad for breakfast, with olive oil, or scrambled eggs with sauteed veg. I will have chicken thighs and bacon in my salad at lunch, and dinner typically has beef or chicken in one form or another, along with a cooked veg and salad. Tonight I am making Burgundy beef and we also enjoy organ meats--heart and liver especially. Talking dh into tongue for lunches! I have had really good results, and my blood sugars have come down and are not having the massive swings like from 77 to over 550 and back down again with eating grains and having to take more insulin to compensate and then crashing... talk about a rocket ride! With eating this way, I have gained better control and my moods have evened out as well, and I am much more pleasant to be around.

Course this is about you, not about me! I would do what feels best for you. If you are having mood swings, I would work on cutting out the grains, but make sure you have carbs in the form of good veg, eat cleanly and as best you can. Hope my experience helps.

Married to my best friend mom to dd (16) , DSS (15) and expecting our LO after 6 years!
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Old 06-10-2010, 08:31 AM
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they have said it all, really.

i was vegan for 5 years (whole foods, no analogues, etc), and relatively high fat (lots of olive oil, coconut oil, and so on), but i had naturally low cholesterol and so it lead to some problems of just feelign not so fab. went vegetarian--added in raw milk, butter, cheese, and pastured eggs. essentially TF vegetarian.

then, when pregnant, had a few meat cravings. went ahead and had meat. but had a diet so heavy in eggs, avocados, butter, you can't imagine.

i mostly eat vegetables (steamed or raw) with butter, eggs and dairy. i would say i eat meat when i feel like it.

but i mostly focus on the fats. the kiddo is doing well, btw. looks like a TF kid, though he's naturally skinny based on body type of his father and i (tall and thin).
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Old 06-10-2010, 01:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
they have said it all, really.

i was vegan for 5 years (whole foods, no analogues, etc), and relatively high fat (lots of olive oil, coconut oil, and so on), but i had naturally low cholesterol and so it lead to some problems of just feelign not so fab. went vegetarian--added in raw milk, butter, cheese, and pastured eggs. essentially TF vegetarian.

then, when pregnant, had a few meat cravings. went ahead and had meat. but had a diet so heavy in eggs, avocados, butter, you can't imagine.

i mostly eat vegetables (steamed or raw) with butter, eggs and dairy. i would say i eat meat when i feel like it.

but i mostly focus on the fats. the kiddo is doing well, btw. looks like a TF kid, though he's naturally skinny based on body type of his father and i (tall and thin).
Ditto for me, in fact bluebirdmama i responded to your post on the veg board. I feel best when i eat a MOSTLY plant based diet, good amounts of non animal fats and little grains. I eat lentils/dal of all kinds mostly, and i like chickpeas and cannelini beans. I do eat a little tofu by choice.

I wouldn't "talk anyone out of" anything if they are convicted about it. You don't have to be all or none. Often people try to follow something so intensely and then feel like a failure. I feel good with my family eating the way we do. We don't love red meats but chicken/lots of turkey and fish/sea foods. It makes it easier on the budget to make good ethical choices when i do not require a portions. I only eat occassional turkey/fish. I don't do dairy, kids do a little and yogurt/cheese.

I eat the way we can afford, to feel the best, and the way *I* feel good about. I don't really follow one particular way to the T
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Old 06-11-2010, 02:34 AM
 
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonlight mom View Post

But a friend just lent me The China Study. I'm not sure if anyone has read the book - but he advocates a completely vegan diet. His research showed low protein and low fat reversed heart disease, cancer and many autoimmune diseases. He found that even if you ate more calories, you never got obese because your body converts plant proteins to heat rather than fat. He states animal protein, particulary casein, is the catalyst for cancer and all sorts of problems. He really bashes all forms of dairy. His diet is completely plant based with no animal products at all, very low fat (10-15%) and low protein (<10% and preferably more around 5%).
I read the book too, and found it compelling until I read some well-researched rebuttals. There was a great thread on it back in 2007 that you may want to read:

"Anybody read The China Study?"

Some nutrition researchers take it apart pretty well:

"The Truth About the China Study" by Chris Masterjohn

Here's Dr. Campbell's response to his article, and Masterjohn's response to his response.

This is what Masterjohn says about casein (bolding mine):

"Other questions, such as what effect different types of processing have on casein's capacity to promote tumor growth, remain unanswered.

Pasteurization, low-temperature dehydration, high-temperature spray-drying (which creates carcinogens), and fermentation all affect the structure of casein differently and thereby would affect its physiological behavior.

What powdered, isolated casein does to rats tells us little about what traditionally consumed forms of milk will do to humans and tells us nothing that we can generalize to all "animal nutrients." Furthermore, Campbell fails to address the problems of vitamin A depletion from excess isolated protein, unsupported by the nutrient-dense fats which accompany protein foods in nature."
As for the hard data contained in the study:
Does the data match up?

What is most shocking about the China Study is not what it found, but the contrast between Campbell's representation of its findings in The China Study, and the data contained within the original monograph.

[see Figure 1, which shows the correlation between various foods and cancer]

But the actual data from the original publication paints a different picture. Figure 1 shows selected correlations between macronutrients and cancer mortality. Most of them are not statistically significant, which means that the probability the correlation is due to chance is greater than five percent.

It is interesting to see, however, the general picture that emerges. Sugar, soluble carbohydrates, and fiber all have correlations with cancer mortality about seven times the magnitude of that with animal protein, and total fat and fat as a percentage of calories were both negatively correlated with cancer mortality.
Anthony Colpo: "The China Study: More Vegan Nonsense! Why T. Colin Campbell's Book is Extremely Misleading." (scroll down to see the 2006 review.)

"Is wheat killing us?" by Brad Marshall. Like Colpo and Masterjohn, Marshall looked at the raw China Study data (that's conveniently NOT published in Campbell's book) and found that it doesn't support his conclusions.

"The main dietary predictor of heart disease rates in China is the TYPE of grain you eat."

"In China, the more non-rice grain you eat, the higher your risk of heart disease (and stroke). Eating meat, dairy and vegetables don't affect your risk."

Here's a snippet from the review from the Science-based Medicine blog:

"Observations from other countries tend to contradict the correlations found in China. The African Maasai eat a diet high in animal protein (meat, milk and blood from their cows) – yet they have low blood cholesterol levels and low rates of heart disease. Among the Eskimos (who ate an animal-based, very high protein, high fat diet) heart disease was practically unknown.

Campbell doesn’t attempt to explain a glaring exception to his data: stomach cancer rates are higher in China than elsewhere in the world – he doesn’t even mention that fact."

Quote:
After reading with a skeptical mind, I am still feeling somewhat guilty. THe thought that I am setting up my children and/or my husband to have chronic conditions really scares me. There is so much heart disease and cancer in our genes and dh is already with borderline high cholesterol.
That is scary; however, I think the underlying cause of these chronic conditions is insulin levels gone out of whack, not consumption of saturated fats and/or protein. Gary Taubes makes a case for this argument in his excellent Good Calories Bad Calories. I can't recommend that book enough, although it's a bit daunting to read with all its references and technical explanations.

Quote:
I do remember how yucky I felt when I ate high carb and low fat - all the blood sugar swings and depression - even ammennorea.
Yep! BTDT. On a high-fat, moderate protein diet I no longer know when my period is coming or has arrived due to lack of symptoms.

Unlike my low-fat low-protein/dairy days when I had to take ibuprofen for the severe cramps, never mind the weight gain, depression and other symptoms that are now gone.

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Old 06-12-2010, 12:09 PM
 
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Well, I might get flamed, but there's nothing natural about veganism. Human being are omnivores, period. The WAPF website has got good information on why you shouldn't go vegan. Here's a list of articles they have.
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:47 PM
 
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Information on The Cornell Study which repudiates The China Study:

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...-in-china.html
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