TF questions (science, Sally Fallon, time and $ constraints...) - Page 2 - Mothering Forums
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#31 of 58 Old 08-02-2010, 01:08 AM
 
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I use some of the NT recipes as kicking-off points rather than recipes proper. Like "OK, braised chicken breast in cream and stock", and then I do my own thing (or think "Huh, this sounds like a very highly-acclaimed recipe from [foodie site]"). And I ignore all the raw meat appetisers.

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#32 of 58 Old 08-02-2010, 02:05 AM
 
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Mmmmm raw meat. I love it.

That said, I actually gave away my copy of NT because I disliked it so much. After copying the oatmeal cookie recipe out, which actually was good. Once I'd "improved" it. Heh.

I would definitely second (third?) the suggestions for Whole Health Source blog and Gary Taubes. Whole Health Source is particularly good for the way he analyzes study methodologies EVEN in the studies whose results he thinks are probably valid.

As far as your weight, energy levels and mood issues - before you dive into TF full-bore, try just cutting out wheat, eat other grains no more than 1 serving a day, cut out sugar completely (including honey and other natural sweeteners) and don't eat any processed food like chips. Add an hour-long walk to your day, preferably in the evening, don't eat after dinner, and I bet within a week you'll feel better and have lost a pound or two.

As for epidemiological studies - they're most of what we have to rely on when it comes to nutritional science, and they are HIGHLY unreliable, in my view - far too many confounding factors, and the bigger the study, the worse the confounds. See the recent debate on the China Study (linked from Whole Health Source, from a few weeks ago) to see how tweaks and corrections to data and outliers can mess up interpretations, and some of the commentary on the discussion illuminates how poor the data actually is.

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#33 of 58 Old 08-02-2010, 12:07 PM
 
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I agree about taking it one step at a time. Try to learn one new TF skill at a time and see how well you can incorporate it into your routines/modify your routines to make it work. Take what you like and do your best with the rest.

I have to disagree about all the NT recipes being gross. I've liked tha majority of the recipes that I've made out of there. (Not that I have made all the recipes in the book, but I've done a few dozen.) Especially the recipes that are basic meals that you are familiar with, just done in a TF way (basically made from scratch.) I've thought all the soup recipes I've made are great. The carrot soup is my fave. I think a lot of the main meals like pot roast, moroccan chicken, pepper steak, etc (all familiar to me prior to TF days) have been great. I've also used a lot of the fermented condiment recipes, sauces, etc. Some of them I might make slight modifications to, but I think they are a great foundation. Now if you are grossed out by raw meat and organs, I don't think that is because of NT and it's not fair to say everything is gross b/c it includes recipes that are strange to us.
I've had less success with the baked goods recipes (like muffins, sunflower seed brownies), so I tend to search TF type blogs for those. But I've also made things I like, like cobbler, apricot bars and pumpkin pie. I haven't tried the majority of the dessert recipes though b/c they usually call for sprouted flour and I've never had any. I love the spice and seasoning combinations called for throughout the various sections of the book. They have basic ingredients but create complex and delicious flavors. (like some orange peel in the pot roast adds a wonderful dimension!) that has been my experience.

I would like to recommend the kitchenstewardship.com blog. She is not a scientist, but she does tons of research and is definitely trying to find the truth and not just rely all on NT/SF (and duly notes that the majority of TF blogs ultimately all go back to Sally without really questioning that). She's started a series about soaking grains and whether or not it's traditional, seeking out other people who would be considered experts and presenting a variety of points of view.

ETA: I don't think one can generalize about the taste of ferments. They taste as different as the foods you make them with. Some I have loved, and some I have hated. And then sometimes a batch of the same thing might not turn out the same way as the batch before.

I do not like the taste of kefir, so I don't drink it plain. I do drink it everyday for the amazing health benefits, but I mix an ounce or two (even a tsp or two would be enough to get benefits - start slow and do what you can tolerate) in smoothies or whatever so that I don't taste the kefir.
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#34 of 58 Old 08-02-2010, 05:31 PM
 
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I now buy my sprouted flour at Wegman's food stores here in the east. My health food store also carries it! It is sold by Shiloh Farms Essential Eating. You can check it out at either shilohfarm.com or essentialeating.com. I used to make my own, but after researching these guys and gals I'm hooked and now have a lot more time. It tasted delicious and bakes beautifully. I loved the history of sprouted flour on the Essential Eating web site.
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#35 of 58 Old 08-02-2010, 07:12 PM
 
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As for epidemiological studies - they're most of what we have to rely on when it comes to nutritional science, and they are HIGHLY unreliable, in my view - far too many confounding factors, and the bigger the study, the worse the confounds. See the recent debate on the China Study (linked from Whole Health Source, from a few weeks ago) to see how tweaks and corrections to data and outliers can mess up interpretations, and some of the commentary on the discussion illuminates how poor the data actually is.
Yeah, the China study is notoriously dodgy - to the point where one wonders whether its creators were deliberately, maliciously skewing the data - but that doesn't mean epidemiological studies are worthless. You just have to look very carefully at confounding factors. It proves something, for instance, that the traditional societies WAP studies ate high-fat diets without succumbing to high rates of heart disease etc. Obviously, ideally, the next step should be a double-blind placebo-controlled study, but how would you do that? You can't give people placebo meat. There have been plenty of animal studies in more controlled conditions, though, which Fallon cites in NT - proving the ills of GM foods on hamsters, for instance, or proving that suppression of Vitamin A in pigs leads to birth defects. They're probably the best you can get in terms of studies, given that experimenting with birth defects on people isn't exactly ethical. And there have even been some human studies, measuring death rates among people with high-fat vs low-fat diets, etc.

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#36 of 58 Old 08-03-2010, 12:07 AM - Thread Starter
 
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LOL spughy, I'm sure you're right re: weight loss--I just have to convince my willpower to get on board! :

The Mood Cure sounds interesting. It's on its way from the library.

I think we need a "What's Cookin' TF mamas" thread like the one on the veg sub-forum!

I'm thinking I need to take another look at WAP's studies (and maybe at NT too). I remember thinking to myself "but even dinosaurs got cancer" (fossil records show this). Also, people used to have much shorter life spans and mortality rates via childbirth and so on were much higher. Degenerative illnesses like heart disease and cancer quite often might not have gotten a chance to develop because people died off so young, so often. Are those factors taken into account at all in any of these discussions? (Same questions apply to anyone touting any kind of diet as "the best", be it raw food, veganism, Atkins, whatever). One point in TF's favour, to me, is that I remember hearing a lot of press a few years back about how Inuit society saw an exponential increase in heart disease once contemporary Western foods (especially fast and convenience foods and white bread) entered their diet very recently and they stopped living on mostly blubber, fish and red sea mammal meats. But on the flip side, there's the Okinawans--are they addressed at all in the TF movement?

My Oregon Trail sourdough starter doesn't seem to be reviving. 24 hours into the first stage of revival (1/2 t dried starter grains soaked in 1T lukewarm water, 1 T flour stirred in) and I'm not seeing any bubbles or smelling anything other than wet flour. And the floury stuff keeps sinking and leaving a layer of watery liquid on top. Is there hope?

For those of you who make kefir, does it get all nicely carbonated and bubbly? I love carbonated things. Neither my water nor my dairy kefir ever really got bubbly.

Wish I had a crock pot to try oats!

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#37 of 58 Old 08-03-2010, 02:00 AM
 
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Yes, pre-industrial societies had higher incidences of death from acute factors, and lower incidences of death from chronic factors like heart disease and cancer. However, in those individuals who survived the rigors of childbirth, hunting, and youthful stupidity, the diseases of western civilization were still largely absent. The aged tended to die from natural disasters, parasites, infections, infirmity, and simple metabolic shutdown due to age. Also, they worked their bodies a LOT harder than we do. Many women especially actually wore out their teeth before their bodies were done and subsequently died from malnutrition. (My dad was a dentist and worked on some First Nations folk who were first-gen contact or limited contact - he said they had perfect teeth except they were worn down to little nubs from leather making etc. and once the root was exposed, they went downhill pretty fast.) Men were injured hunting and had recurrent joint problems or festering wounds that never quite healed, and yes, occasionally cancers would get people too. Cancer is pretty prevalent in nature, but not to the extent that currently afflicts western societies.

Generally, the idea with TF is to meld traditional foodways, which DO emphasize animal fats and protein, with modern medical advances and to SOME extent the easier lifestyle. My personal belief though, is that if we make our lives too easy our bodies don't work very well when a challenge (like, say, childbirth) hits. My more recent reading has been on body alignment and how we're doing ourselves no favours with that "chair" thing we invented a few thousand years ago. Anyway, everyone has to make their own call on all of it, and I do NOT think there's a one-size-fits-all dietary approach. You look at your lifestyle, your ethics, your geographic location, what your personal ancestors ate (my DD is going to have fun with this one, with all 4 grandparents originating on different continents) and you sort out for yourself what you want to eat. Because no matter how much you might intellectually believe that certain foods are good for you, in the end, if you don't WANT to eat them, you won't. (Oh, hello, freezer - what's that? There's still 10 lbs of liver in you? Well, how about that.)

And about the carbonated kefir - you have to let it ferment in a *sealed* jar to make it fizzy. Make sure it's a sturdy one.

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#38 of 58 Old 08-05-2010, 11:16 PM
 
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I found this discussion of the China study and The China Study interesting and pertinent to the discussion of studying nutrition and disease and our ability to draw conclusions from it...I love Dr. Eades and he is a great science-based, mainstream-ish source. He isn't crunchy or traditional at all, but his science keeps me on track when I start feeling like, well, eating bread is traditional for my culture and stuff like that I do find that I can tolerate some bread and sugar, and I don't always want to eschew mainstream foods so his approach really works for me. I also love his book recs and his links to other interesting nutrition folks from a less crunchy corner of the web...

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/c...des%2C+M.D.%29

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the...act-or-fallac/
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#39 of 58 Old 08-09-2010, 10:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FairyRae View Post
Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes, while not totally TF, does dismantle a lot of the 'mainstream' diet info (esp low fat/high carb being best) utilizing actual scientific research. Definitely for the science minded, and definitely pro GOOD fats.

I agree w/ pp's that you'll find Nina Planck's Real Food a welcome, scientifically backed read. Very down to earth and fun as well. I prefer her tone to SF's/WAPF's personally.

Another resource I like, again not exactly TF, but more on a paleo/primal slant (which is honestly, IMO, the *first* 'traditional diet' ) is The Primal Blueprint. Tons of science in there and VERY reader friendly, discussing the benefits of good quality meat, fats, etc... His site http://marksdailyapple.com is a fabulous resource as well, and worth looking at.

And here is Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, full text, online!

Good luck in your search for info!
All of these are what I was going to say!!
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#40 of 58 Old 08-09-2010, 12:21 PM
 
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Astrea, you can try adding a tsp of sugar if you're having trouble reviving your starter, yeast loves sugar
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#41 of 58 Old 08-09-2010, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks Katie! It's looking a little bubbly now and smelling sour, after being fed for just over a week, but it doesn't really ever "rise up" like the instructions say it should. Is that normal? I'm going to try baking with it today... we'll see.

I think my non-sourdough Artisan Bread in 5 is actually pretty decent, because I always add 2-3 T of whey to the dough and it always sits for somewhere between 24 hours to 2 weeks before being used. That makes it pretty well soaked, right?

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#42 of 58 Old 08-09-2010, 02:00 PM
 
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I never really understand what they mean by "rise" with starter. I know mine is ready when it's bubbly and a bit frothy and has a nice sour smell. It kind of puffs up on the top, but I don't know that I'd call it "risen?"

I do old school starter, 1 cup of flour and 1 cup of warm water, and I cover and leave it in a warm place till it catches some good yeast. I usually store mine in the fridge because I'm really the only one that likes sourdough (trying to change that!) but I find it easy to revive- I mix it up well and add 1 cup warm water, 1/2 cup flour, and 1tsp sugar. I usually start my bread with a nice sponge, so once my starter is revived I mix together 1 cup of starter, 2 cups of warm water, and 2.5 cups of flour. I like to let my sponge sit at least over night before i use it. Whatever leftover sponge I have I use to feed my starter before it goes back in the fridge.

I think 24 hours is a good sitting time, and definitley it would be well soaked by 2 weeks, lol!
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#43 of 58 Old 08-09-2010, 10:27 PM
 
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What a great thread! Before I reply to a PP, I agree with several posters who've said to take it slow and easy because TF has a long learning curve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azgirl View Post
I love Dr. Eades and he is a great science-based, mainstream-ish source.

[...]

I also love his book recs and his links to other interesting nutrition folks from a less crunchy corner of the web...

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/c...des%2C+M.D.%29

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the...act-or-fallac/
The latter link is to Denise Minger's excellent blog. I highly recommend the various posts she's written dismantling The China Study. The book and writer Dr. Campbell have lost all credibility with me after reading them, although I admit I was already skeptical of him after reading Colpo and Masterjohn's articles on the book.

Dr. Eades' post about The China Study is merely frosting on Minger's cake.

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#44 of 58 Old 08-11-2010, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've read most of those China Study posts and I'm not really convinced Denise's posts constitute a true take-down. YMMV, of course.

My sourdough bread turned out well. We had it for breakfast with coconut oil and raw peanut butter, with homemade yogurt and raspberries. I did still add some yeast because I'm not sure if the starter has sufficient rising power yet. I'll use less yeast next time, and hopefully keep on reducing it down to nothing or next to nothing over time.

I realized my yogurt-making issues stemmed from incubating the inoculated milk for too long--it was curdling and separating. I incubated it for around 3.5 hours last night and then refrigerated it, and it turned out very well. I'm straining it right now (I like thick Greek-style yogurt; I save the whey for use in recipes).

I got on the mailing list for our local cow-share co-op (raw milk source) but I need to read more about it. DH and I agree that the benefits of getting raw milk vs. organic grass-fed non-homogenized pasteurized milk need to be pretty significant to outweigh the added expense and inconvenience. Anyone want to convince me?

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#45 of 58 Old 08-13-2010, 01:49 PM
 
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I think that Minger did say that she felt that the China Study wasn't exactly 100% incorrect, but more that she felt it was incomplete in its conclusions. I got the impression she wasn't out for the total "takedown" but to show bias and truncated logic.

I just made my first sourdough bread after getting a starter going two weeks ago, it turned out really well. I wanted a loaf similar to the rosemary olive oil bread I like, so I added two tbs of crushed dry rosemary and drizzled the top with olive oil before baking. Rosemary bread makes the very best grilled sandwiches!!

I don't have any hard data about raw milk. I do know that my own child, who tests allergic to milk, can drink raw. Even if we didn't have that issue I'd prefer milk from a grassfed source.
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#46 of 58 Old 08-14-2010, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I bit the bullet and signed up for the wait list for the cow share. I should have raw milk in 1-2 months I'm hoping to be able to use the cream from the milk to make butter in my KitchenAid. Is that a reasonable idea?

DD is a very picky eater (despite baby-led weaning, etc.) and gets a lot of her calories from milk, so it seems like a good place to invest some serious money.

My sourdough is awesome and has a nice sour taste already. I expect it'll only get better. I used these instrux if anyone's interested:
http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1284

I'm reading Real Food by Planck now, and I'm enjoying it a lot. Thanks to those who suggested it!

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#47 of 58 Old 08-14-2010, 05:53 PM
 
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I'm reading Real Food by Planck now, and I'm enjoying it a lot. Thanks to those who suggested it!
I just got done reading it, it was great!
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#48 of 58 Old 08-15-2010, 09:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Astrea View Post
I bit the bullet and signed up for the wait list for the cow share. I should have raw milk in 1-2 months I'm hoping to be able to use the cream from the milk to make butter in my KitchenAid. Is that a reasonable idea?

DD is a very picky eater (despite baby-led weaning, etc.) and gets a lot of her calories from milk, so it seems like a good place to invest some serious money.

My sourdough is awesome and has a nice sour taste already. I expect it'll only get better. I used these instrux if anyone's interested:
http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=1284

I'm reading Real Food by Planck now, and I'm enjoying it a lot. Thanks to those who suggested it!
You can make butter in your mixer! I've only done it once, but basically you just turn it on and beat the heck out of it until it separates. I'm getting a butter churn soon!

Earth-loving, birth-loving, body-working, simple-livin' mama to two sweet girls and fiance to a hard-working man treehugger.gif namaste.gifbellyhair.gif

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#49 of 58 Old 08-16-2010, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Sweet! Can't wait to try it. I'll have to see whether it's more cost effective to get premade butter through the cow share, or to make my own from the milk I get. I guess it'll depend partly on how much cream there is on the milk (it's Jersey milk).

I've been putting my raw coconut oil on my tea and coffee. Very tasty and easy to drink. Curious to see if it'll help with weight loss a la Eat Fat, Lose Fat.

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#50 of 58 Old 08-17-2010, 11:22 PM
 
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Thank you for this thread-- took the words literally right out of my mouth! I was saying this exact thing to my partner last night and emailing it to a friend just this morning. I find WAPF and NT just makes my racism/orientalism/primitivism/etc. etc hackles go up and the science is just not convincing in the way it is presented in such over the top ways. When I read silly things like "autism and ADHD and ... will all be cured... it's all in the gut" I just roll my eyes. It's just not so simple.

But I love the more Pollan "Food Rules"-ish kind of way of thinking about traditional foods.

I've been eating more Eat-to-Live the past few weeks to lose my baby fat (vegan, low grain, low fat, low salt, no sugar, nothing too processed) and it worked. So now that I got over that hump I want to add things back in and just eat better. My BIGGEST problem is time. I work FT and my partner works FT and yet we use no childcare-- tag team parenting resulting in us not seeing each other and neither of us having time to cook and clean if we want to play with our boy (though now that he's a toddler he's more willing to cook/clean with us). I'm a teacher so I've been off all summer and I've had the time to make my own hummus and smoothies and shop at the farmers markets twice a week and chop chop chop produce and all that. It's been great but reality hits in one more week. During the year I can commit myself to weekend bone broths but I need QUICK dinners that don't involve too much weekend time since it's our only time together as a family and we like to be out and about.

Anyway, would love to hear from working moms who manage to eat all whole foods. and some tricks of the trade!
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#51 of 58 Old 08-18-2010, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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... I've had the time to make my own hummus and smoothies and shop at the farmers markets twice a week and chop chop chop produce and all that. It's been great but reality hits in one more week. During the year I can commit myself to weekend bone broths but I need QUICK dinners that don't involve too much weekend time since it's our only time together as a family and we like to be out and about.

Anyway, would love to hear from working moms who manage to eat all whole foods. and some tricks of the trade!

Astrea, mama to my sweet toddler Willow
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#52 of 58 Old 08-18-2010, 10:53 PM
 
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I love making sausage meatballs and serving them with some wilted greens. It's pretty quick. I just do an egg and some parmesan in the meat and bake them (drizzle with some evoo), while they're cooking I do the greens however I want. Real simple is just cook them down in some olive oil and add in some balsamic vinegar and minced garlic.
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#53 of 58 Old 08-19-2010, 01:31 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Mmm that sounds so good. What do you use for the "sausage" part of the meatballs (recovering veg*n here, talk to me using small words )

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#54 of 58 Old 08-19-2010, 10:12 AM
 
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I think it is much harder to work full time and do TF. But it can be done -- I think you just need to be gentle on yourself with the learning curve, and the adjustment to planning. And as you find recipes that are quick enough. But even the quick enough recipes usually require advance thought, even if they don't take too much time altogether. I think that's the hardest part to get used to.

So, three of my quick meals are Beef Tikki Masala, Shepherd's Pie, and Curry Chicken Soup. Each of them took some practice to get down pat, but now I can do any of them in 30-45 minutes, start to finish.

I wish we all could have a once-a-month cooking fest together, and freeze the result!! That would be fun.

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#55 of 58 Old 08-19-2010, 10:16 AM
 
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P.S. I think another good trick is to find a "sort of TF" quickie meal that is totally low-stress, and be willing to have that a lot while you are learning the other meals. Ours is Tinkyada spaghetti (whole grain rice spagetti that actually acts/tastes like spaghetti) with a meat marinara sauce (good jarred tomato sauce combined with saute'd onions and ground beef). That one takes like 20 minutes, and I always have it on hand for when my better brain and intentions fail me.

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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein

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#56 of 58 Old 08-19-2010, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So, three of my quick meals are Beef Tikki Masala, Shepherd's Pie, and Curry Chicken Soup. Each of them took some practice to get down pat, but now I can do any of them in 30-45 minutes, start to finish.

I wish we all could have a once-a-month cooking fest together, and freeze the result!! That would be fun.
ITA!

Would you be willing to share those recipes? They all sound to me.

Astrea, mama to my sweet toddler Willow
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#57 of 58 Old 08-20-2010, 10:03 PM
 
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ITA!

Would you be willing to share those recipes? They all sound to me.
Yes, I would love to, except that I'm going on a trip tomorrow and haven't packed yet! Will you bump this thread next week to remind me??

Mama to two sweet boys, a 7yo superhero.gif and a toddler coolshine.gif.
 

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein

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#58 of 58 Old 08-21-2010, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
 
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For sure. Have a good trip!

Astrea, mama to my sweet toddler Willow
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