Grain Free/Primal/Paleo in September!!! - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 189 Old 09-01-2010, 12:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Alright ladies!! Let's keep this going!!

So, just wanted to share a link to a really yummy avocado mayo (egg free) for any of you who might want to try it. It was soooo yummy--it made me want deviled eggs... (Um, and for any newbies to grain free/paleo/primal eating, eggs are totally A-OK--I just happen to be a bit sensitive!) I used a bit of EVOO in place of the milk in the recipe, just fyi.

http://aprovechar.danandsally.com/?p=133

Any recs for other ways to use mayo that don't require eggs? (like, not egg salad or deviled eggs, etc?) I used it to make salmon salad, and could do chicken salad as well. Wondering if it would work as part of a hollendaise sauce?? Hmmmm.

I'm thinking of doing the Sept 30 day Primal Challenge. I don't even know what that really means, but I'm thinking of trying to be really strict primal/paleo for the next 4 weeks (all part of my healing, which I've been slacking on sugar wise!) We'll see!

Did my Lift Heavy Things (pb fitness based) workout this am--it kicked my butt! I LOVE it!! It also *really* highlights my weaknesses, and gives me a clear path to progress which is rockin!

Hope you all are doing well!! Planning on skirt steaks tonight--any great ideas for a marinade? I'm planning on broiling them based on what I've read...

Lauren, wife to my dear and mama to amazing River
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#2 of 189 Old 09-01-2010, 05:51 PM
 
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#3 of 189 Old 09-01-2010, 06:20 PM
 
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I have been SO BAD! Like, a bag of Cheetos bad. I'm depressed and lately I just don't care.

Kas (24), Helpmeet to Stefan (25), Mom to Franklin Gaudelio 4/15/09, Jonathan Boswell 1/2/11
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#4 of 189 Old 09-01-2010, 07:42 PM
 
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Since the pregnancy I have been lax about corn based stuff (taco shells, some tortilla chips, corn on the cob) and I have had ice cream, but I am still going strong with everything else.

I figure some carbs are what my body needs at the moment. It's certainly what my body is craving! I was *really* bad today though and I need to start coming here to write what I've had so I don't gt this out of control again. I sort of grazed today too, which since following primal eating, I haven't been a grazer.

Today I had

3 pastured eggs with sliced turkey and 1 slice colby cheese

half a cantaloupe!

1/2 serving of ben and jerry's ice cream

corn chips with grated cheddar nuked in the microwave and then covered with salsa

3 homemade tacos - ground beef with lots of onion, garlic and mushrooms and taco seasoning (found seasoning without wheat. btw, taco bell's taco meat has flour in it) topped with salsa and cheese

Momma to DS 1, age 8 and rainbow baby DS2 4-21-11.
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#5 of 189 Old 09-01-2010, 10:58 PM
 
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Happy September!

I am traveling most of this month so I am allowing myself to be lax, but I am feeling so much better, I don't even want the 'bad' stuff. I have IF'd a few times this week and am really liking the feeling, I basically skip breakfast, so I go for about 16hrs. Usually on trips my weakness is over eating, so this time my challenge is to eat only when hungry and try to IF at least once a week.

Exercise-I have been getting out for walks more now that the weather is cooler. I usually strap the toddler on my back for an extra challenge. I should be able to get plenty of exercise while I am away as only the toddler will be with me and she is portable. I also started the 100 push ups and 200 sit ups. This is week one and I am doing ok with the sit ups but the push ups are kicking my butt! DH is doing the push ups with me. I love watching him do push ups with out his shirt on

Welcome to all!

We create our own reality.
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#6 of 189 Old 09-01-2010, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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DH is doing the push ups with me. I love watching him do push ups with out his shirt on
I think this is adorable. And I would love my dh to do this kind of thing w/ me, and I too *love* watching him do push ups.

Lauren, wife to my dear and mama to amazing River
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#7 of 189 Old 09-01-2010, 11:48 PM
 
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Yay for September!

I'm having a hard time after realizing that I am sensitive to corn and eggs now, in addition to gluten and peanuts. Eggs were a huge blow, and corn sucks too. I'm adapting, but there have been a lot of comfort GF/EF/CF health food store brownies and cookies. I've gained a couple pounds as a result.

Goals for this month are:

Lose at least five pounds (I maintained overall last month, no loss- ugh. I'm still about 25lbs overweight)
Exercise at least three times a week (I haven't worked out since April but did two yoga classes back to back tonight- yay!)
Maintain paleo diet and cut out the rice flour products. They're huge on the GI scale and make me feel icky.

Oddly, dairy seems to be okay still, in strict moderation. I'm sure I'll end up reacting to that eventually too, but at least for now I can still have lattes with my mom.

Oh, and I've been eating Veganaise ( ) so thanks for that recipe, FairyRae!!!!!

mom to one glorious sweetpea born 10/18/2007.

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#8 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm having a hard time after realizing that I am sensitive to corn and eggs now, in addition to gluten and peanuts. Eggs were a huge blow, and corn sucks too.
We need to stick together BRW!! Corn and gluten have been out for ds (and I) for a while, and I've been pretty good at avoiding peanuts anyway, but eggs has been a HUGE deal for me. Let's keep posting our egg free ideas!!! I don't see myself making any egg free baked goods any time soon, since I'd be basically making them just for me, and I really *don't* need to be eating them. When I do eat some of ds's baked goods (full of eggs--I typically use coconut flour) and get a stomache ache, it's actually a pretty good motivator to avoid them!

I made salmon salad 2x yesterday w/ the egg free avocado mayo and salt and pepper, and it was sooo good! It was sooooo hot hear last night that I just made some hot dogs on the stovetop (no grill ) and a caesar salad (um, the pioneer woman caesar salad dressing, w/ no cheese or worchestire sauce and no subs for them, is still AMAZING! I definitely have a new fave dressing!!) For today, I still need to make these skirt steaks I have, and may do wings again soon...can't stop thinking about them of course!!

And GGL--I've read in almost every paleo/primal/grain free forum I've visited that preg. women do crave a lot more carbs in general. I agree it's for a reason, and to just follow your body and *try* to stick to primal carbs as much as possible. Also, just fyi, my sis is in her 2nd trimester, and although she's been pretty primal for a while b/4 pregnancy, she is definitely a grazer now. (Her first tri she almost didn't eat from feeling sick...but now she eats much and often.) She has 3 meals and 3 snacks a day (she plans them out b/c of her work schedule.) She probably eats more rice based, gf baked goods and crunchy snacks than most primal folks, which may be linked to all the snacking, but she's still probably 60-70% primal... Just interesting to me! So excited to hear the preg. sounds like its going well so far!!!

Lauren, wife to my dear and mama to amazing River
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#9 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 09:17 AM
 
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checking in- doing pretty good here.

Not as low carb but I have also been pretty darn active though. Made a yummy peach/pepper salad last night w/ some chicken and black beans. Lunch was salmon patties(used some almond flour for binder) and bfast was eggs and bacon.

Today I think bfast will be eggs and bacon again, lunch leftover salad w/ deviled eggs and nuts, supper is dh's he is making steak and asparagus- I am going to the gym for a workout class.

Happily Married to my : 11 yrs- Mama to wild-eyed monkey boy 7-04, fiery little girl 4-07, and the happy smiley baby that sleeps 11-09!
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#10 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 12:37 PM
 
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I didn't know you were in the same boat, FairyRae! Yay and yet...not yay.

I know- the hardest thing is that I don't feel like I can BAKE anything for myself anymore. I used to make this killer cornbread that would get me through those cravings, but nothing. I thought I was intolerant to rice for the longest time and now I realize that it's because I'd have stuff with eggs that were rice flour based. I still can't eat a lot of rice without some bloating and weight gain, but I don't get the gastrointestinal yuckies if I avoid things with eggs.

Pamela's shortbread cookies are fantastic though- have you tried those? The pecan shortbread with chocolate chunks are particularly amazing.

The Caesar dressing sounds great- I'm going to have to check that out! I eat salads a LOT at work (its the only thing I can eat there) but they're soybean oil based. I could definitely stand to find a good, portable dressing for myself and bring it instead.

mom to one glorious sweetpea born 10/18/2007.

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#11 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 01:17 PM
 
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3 homemade tacos - ground beef with lots of onion, garlic and mushrooms and taco seasoning (found seasoning without wheat. btw, taco bell's taco meat has flour in it) topped with salsa and cheese
Oh *snap* Well now I have to add TB my forbidden list though maybe just rice & beans might be ok.... hmm

Yay for September! I'm working on some gut healing and doing a cup of homemade broth in the mornings, sometimes after my coffee but before lunch. Its making for a tasty breakfast snack.

The weight is sloooowly coming off. I'm down to 199 and I feel awesome!! I have definately noticed a senstivity to flour products (bread, pasta, cake) when I eat them, and now I've noticed it when I have certain sauces, seasonings and etc. Its just a bad tummy ache and awful gassy/bloatness. So now I'm watching and reading labels too to avoid as much as I can.

I'm going through the PB fitness plan and it looks pretty straight forward, I just need to stop being lazy.

Today's check-in
Dinner last night - 1/2 burger with lettuce, mayo, tomatoes, onion, pickles, pico de gallo, jalenpenos

Breakfast - coffee, cream, stevia & CO
Snack - Chicken broth & mixed nuts
Lunch - BAS with bacon, chicken & sunflower seeds
Sn. Hummus, veggies & 1/2 avocado
Dinner -????? (though FR's wings sound YUMMY right now!!)

treehugger.gifAnd you who seek to know Me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.treehugger.gif

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#12 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 01:48 PM
 
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The weight is sloooowly coming off. I'm down to 199 and I feel awesome!!
That is SO GREAT! Go you!!!!!!

mom to one glorious sweetpea born 10/18/2007.

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#13 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 02:16 PM
 
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I have been making my own Taco seasoning and storing it in a jar. DH and I both love it! Here is a recipe for a single serving - with 5 star rating by 1,700 people.

http://allrecipes.com//Recipe/taco-s...-i/Detail.aspx

You can add as much or little red pepper flakes as you like it hot. I dont add any LOL

Use the serving calculator to increase the measurments and make a larger batch to store. I also add a bit of water to the ground beef when I add the mix to moisten it more.

Good - cheap - eats!

Rhianna
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#14 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 02:36 PM
 
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Thanks Rhianna! This is something I can whip up in a big batch and store! Yay!

treehugger.gifAnd you who seek to know Me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.treehugger.gif

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#15 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 02:43 PM
 
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Hi! I'm here - I joined MDA to keep a public journal. I was so glad to find a place I could be accountable to people who totally agree with the way I want to eat!

Dh, I, & our five sweeties have been eating TF for three years, but I and my three boys remained sugar addicts. I finally beat that back (with help from Radiant Recovery) and was able to go truly primal, which is what I know I need. I really do believe that we should be able to handle properly prepared grains and fermented dairy, and probably raw milk, but I think our diets have been overly dependent on hybridized (high-gluten), improperly prepared, excess grains, and processed milk, and our poor guts just can't take it anymore.

At any rate, I'm grain-free, and almost never have unfermented dairy, and we eat nearly 100% organic, homemade, pastured food. But I'm frustrated with not being able to have a little something at a wedding, or a small once-a-week bowl of ice cream for the kids, or more than 40g of carbs in a day for myself w/o instant bloating or return of extreme sugar obsession. I think our guts need some hard core healing, so I'm going GAPS with the family for about six months. Shouldn't be too different for us, just eliminating potatoes and for a time, dairy, till the hard cheeses & fermented dairy returns. I have great hopes!

As far as primal exercise, I'm SO glad for this concept! I finally found an exercise dh will do with me, which means I finally have a built-in source of exercise accountability for myself! We're doing Simple Fit (http://www.simplefit.com) - just pushups, pullups, & squats. All can be modified for extreme lack of fitness, lol. He started on level 4 and I started on level 1 - we're having fun together! I think we'll transition over to Primal Blueprint Fitness now that it's out and maybe try some MovNat, Parkour, or some other just really fun, really natural exercise in the future.

Great to meet y'all here, and now I'll retreat mostly to read!
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#16 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 03:24 PM
 
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Forgot to mention I've lost almost 20 lb since starting in March. A few weeks off here and there, and 3 wks struggling to pull it back together after a 2wk vacation, so not too bad. If I don't count those, I've kept up about 1lb/wk.

30-40 to go, depending on where my body wants to go!
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#17 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 03:28 PM
 
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Forgot to mention I've lost almost 20 lb since starting in March.
Congrats!
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#18 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I didn't know you were in the same boat, FairyRae! Yay and yet...not yay.

Yeah--prob b/c I eat stuff w/ them in there all the time and give myself stomach aches! I only went egg free (um sort of), or figured out this was an issue for me, quite recently. I was egg free a couple years ago when ds used to react to them though, so I have some experience w/ it.

I know- the hardest thing is that I don't feel like I can BAKE anything for myself anymore. I used to make this killer cornbread that would get me through those cravings, but nothing. I thought I was intolerant to rice for the longest time and now I realize that it's because I'd have stuff with eggs that were rice flour based. I still can't eat a lot of rice without some bloating and weight gain, but I don't get the gastrointestinal yuckies if I avoid things with eggs.

Now almost all of my baking is for ds, but I *do* still have trouble resisting a bite, which I *usually* get nausea from (it varies though--sometimes I'm ok ) if I eat a serving. Which I've done many times anyway b/c I'm crazy!

I try to keep to mostly primal baking stuff though, which, when avoiding almond flour (for ds), is basically mostly coconut flour based--so eggs galore. For me the baked goods are something I kind of want to avoid anyway, so its a good thing in some ways?? For me its more a matter of man, my super easy breakfast is gone now, and man, I really love deviled eggs as a snack! But that's the majority of where it gets me--which is pretty impacting!


Pamela's shortbread cookies are fantastic though- have you tried those? The pecan shortbread with chocolate chunks are particularly amazing.

Don't tell me about them!! A lot of her stuff has dairy which I don't do (except ghee), so I'll really need to read the packaging when I'm in need...

The Caesar dressing sounds great- I'm going to have to check that out! I eat salads a LOT at work (its the only thing I can eat there) but they're soybean oil based. I could definitely stand to find a good, portable dressing for myself and bring it instead.
Yeah, I'm totally sold on it. I'm out of lettuce, and can't wait to get paid so I can buy more to eat w/ my dressing. SO crazy--I'm wildly craving romaine w/ dressing and that's it. Seriously, its really good. (Oh, and I haven't had a commercial caesar dressing in years, so I'm sure that's part of it for me. I've missed the taste!)

Doing good today! Breakfast was a salmon salad--just the avocado mayo w/ salmon and diced red onions. YUM! Lunch was some skirt steak, which I marinated in a concoction of fresh basil, garlic, some balsamic vinegar and olive oil. I loved the flavors, and surely need to do more marination of my meats! I also had 2 big glasses of green smoothie w/ it (I had some mixed field greens which were going bad, picked out the best ones, and added some frozen collards in as well to get it really green, plus strawberries and banana. YUM!) Dinner plans are (bunless) burgers on the grill at my aunt's house (my mom's buying so they are grassfed! I love getting free great quality meat! ) and I'll probably bring some fruit along and carrots. We are going swimming there so will probably just jump out for the grilling and snacks...Keeping paleo/primal over here though, and feeling good!

Hey, Vaquitita, how are you doing? I know you were getting near the birthing point...wondering what's going on? Maybe we have a new primal babe by now? Hope all is well!!!

Lauren, wife to my dear and mama to amazing River
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#19 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 03:31 PM
 
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NatrlCatholicMama I attempted to get off sugar once using Radiant Recovery but didn’t make it past breakfast level LOL But I was vegetarian back then and not quite as educated about fats, proteins, traditional foods, etc. I think her program and insights are great! I have recommended her books and website to others.

Primal workout…. I don’t have Mark’s book but love his website. Is there info on his site I can read to learn more about primal blueprint fitness? I have just started getting some exercise again (fell off that wagon 2 years ago partially due to an illness) and have been using some weight machines and bike with a trainer twice a week. And also lunchtime walks. I work full time and must drive (highway) to work and sit at a desk all day. Not too primal LOL

Rhianna
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#20 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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NCM, hi! I believe we know you from MDA as MamaGrok--is that right? So excited you're here! You really inspired me recently to go almost totally paleo, to avoid almost all forms of sugar (not fruit though) and tubers (the foods that I really have trouble not binge eating when I have them and hadn't cut out since going primal/paleo). I've been doing pretty well for the most part, and definitely feel it when I deviate. I'm really excited about it all though, b/c I can *feel* myself healing, and can handle more of some foods that I couldn't handle b/4 (nuts in larger quantities, coconut oil, sometimes eggs mixed in w/ something else--sometimes ).

So glad you are here! And congrats on the weight loss!!

Lauren, wife to my dear and mama to amazing River
I traditional foods
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#21 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Primal workout…. I don’t have Mark’s book but love his website. Is there info on his site I can read to learn more about primal blueprint fitness?
Here is where you can get the FREE ebook, which is complete and totally detailed info on how to workout primally. It's so awesome!
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/intro...print-fitness/

Lauren, wife to my dear and mama to amazing River
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#22 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 03:50 PM
 
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Primal workout…. I don’t have Mark’s book but love his website. Is there info on his site I can read to learn more about primal blueprint fitness? I have just started getting some exercise again (fell off that wagon 2 years ago partially due to an illness) and have been using some weight machines and bike with a trainer twice a week. And also lunchtime walks. I work full time and must drive (highway) to work and sit at a desk all day. Not too primal LOL

Rhianna
Look up Primal Fitness on his site he has a free e-book with all the details, it is really good.

Happily Married to my : 11 yrs- Mama to wild-eyed monkey boy 7-04, fiery little girl 4-07, and the happy smiley baby that sleeps 11-09!
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#23 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 03:59 PM
 
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Woah- FR beat me there I think I might look at the simplefit site as well. I have looked at the plan a bit and like the *simplicity* of it! Although, I do enjoy lifting as well. I am jealous of you guys w/ your dh working out with you- dh is doing some biking and hiking and such but not interested in weight work- body or otherwise.

the site for that is:
www.simplefit.org

I just tried bringing up the .com

NatlCathMom- I wish I tolerated more sugar as well at times. I don't know if that is in the cards though! I wish you guys the best of luck w/ healing!

Happily Married to my : 11 yrs- Mama to wild-eyed monkey boy 7-04, fiery little girl 4-07, and the happy smiley baby that sleeps 11-09!
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#24 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 07:59 PM
 
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Hi all,
I just wanted to join in, I'm trying to recommit to more primal eating this month. August was awful for me with family visiting and lots of dinners out and goodies, so I'm back at it this month! I'm excited about MDA's 30 day challenge so I'm hoping to be really motivated!

I've been gluten free for almost three years, but frustrated in the last year when my gut issues have been flaring up, even though I don't eat gluten. That's when i happened upon MDA and going grain free, and it really makes me feel so much better. I also feel a lot better when I cut out sugar, so that's the plan this month. I just have to get it out of my system, and then I won't crave it so bad. This afternoon I was wanting something sweet so the kids and I had a smoothie with frozen bananas, coconut milk, organic peanut butter, and cocoa powder! Yum! I know the bananas have a lot of carbs, but at least it wasn't sugar.

So my goals this month are......
-no sugar! (maybe a *very* occasional honey sweetened treat)
-no grains
-try to limit unfermented dairy. Maybe I'll try switching to raw milk.

Dh and I are in week 7 of P90X so I'm also trying to keep that in mind when I eat, I need to keep me calories and protein up so I don't run out of steam. We also drink a whey protein shake that has some artificial sweetener and I'd like to replace that, but I feel like I need the boost post workout. Any ideas? The P90X nutrition guide isn't much help (low fat and lots of carbs), and dh really wants to follow it, but in the last 7 weeks I haven't found my nutrition to be all that great, so I'm going to try being more strictly Primal. I was trying to follow their guide without being low fat, but I felt so conflicted with everthing. Anyways, I'm starting to ramble. I'm glad to be here!
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#25 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 08:06 PM
 
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Oh, and wanted to share the yummy salad I had for lunch today.......
leftover baked bruschetta chicken, sliced
avocado
parmesan cheese
tomato
cucumber
romaine
half a sliced pear
topped with a bit of vidalia onion dressing (i know, not primal!)

And I had bacon and eggs for breakfast, so not too bad for day two into the month!
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#26 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 09:22 PM
 
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I did p90x before my pregnancy last year I paid no attention to their nutrition guide and kept it pretty primal. I would have no energy to do those kind of workouts on that kind of food. As you said you just have to make sure to keep those calories up and when you feel the need for carbs make it fruit or tubers.

Happily Married to my : 11 yrs- Mama to wild-eyed monkey boy 7-04, fiery little girl 4-07, and the happy smiley baby that sleeps 11-09!
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#27 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by akmeg View Post
topped with a bit of vidalia onion dressing (i know, not primal!)
Sounds primal to me--esp if you made it. IDK what's in it, but I bet it could be made primal.

Lauren, wife to my dear and mama to amazing River
I traditional foods
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#28 of 189 Old 09-02-2010, 09:35 PM
 
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We dabble with p90x here too! DH & I love the workouts, but yeah the nutrition..mmm no. I've eaten mostly primal-style, and that's gotten me through it.

My favorite post-workout treat is:
drink quickly - 8oz of juice with 2 Tbs of raw ACV (braggs)
and then nosh on 1-2 Tbs of peanut butter.

This was my immediate go-to especially after plyo Next morning I felt great every time. Yeah the juice (100% juice)has carbs/sugars in it, but for me it was only 1x for the day and I was drinking water otherwise.

DH knows he needs a protein replacement post workout, and has been dabbling with various protein shakes... personally I think they taste icky.

treehugger.gifAnd you who seek to know Me, know that the seeking and yearning will avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: for if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without.treehugger.gif

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#29 of 189 Old 09-03-2010, 10:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rhianna813 View Post
That's the same taco seasoning we use. So simple and every bit as good as any from the store. I keep it in an old spice jar (just wrote on the lid what it was - actually, I think I wrote the recipe on the side of the jar to make it easy to refill).
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Originally Posted by FairyRae View Post
You really inspired me recently to go almost totally paleo, to avoid almost all forms of sugar (not fruit though) and tubers (the foods that I really have trouble not binge eating when I have them and hadn't cut out since going primal/paleo).
Oh, good! I don't know how, though! I just took out the tubers myself, going GAPS. It's interesting how GAPS seems like such a burden to so many, but when you already believe that everyone does best on only real food, with very limited (and properly prepared) grains, & mostly fermented dairy, it's not that big of a step on and off the "diet." Darn potatoes are definitely addictive for me.

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Originally Posted by crunchy_mama View Post
the site for that is:
www.simplefit.org
Thank you, that's exactly it!
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#30 of 189 Old 09-03-2010, 10:37 AM
 
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haha, I was wondering why there weren't any new posts coming on my user CP and then thought, Oh, right, it's a new month. dur

I think I'm going to do the Primal Challenge via MDC as well, starting on the 7th. Should be a good way to head into fall, and then the holidays, while creatively avoiding the crappy carby crap

I have already been totally grain free, legume free, and lower carb. For the challenge I will
Cut out dairy except for my raw cream and maybe butter/ghee .
Cut out sugar totally again. It creeps back up occasionally!
Cut out white potatoes. I'll add these back in, but a break from them is good for me.
Continue walking upwards of 2-4 hours a week.
Yoga 2x a week
weights/wow 1-2 x a week.
"sprint" 1 x a week. I am going to count a short, hilly walk on moms treadmill as my sprint. I haven't built up to actual tabata sprints yet. I can do about 1 minute of something and then I'm bored and hating it. Life's too short.
ok, toddler needs me.

Shelley, mom to dd 5/19/01, ds 9/06/02, and ds 4/01/07.  Lost babe 4/09

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