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#1 of 42 Old 02-21-2011, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I think it is hard for people to understand that I eat meat but am against dairy. I keep finding it really hard to stick with this and then beat myself up when I "give in". Logically it makes no sense to me to consume another animals breast milk. I also am sickened by the dairy industry as a whole and do not feel we, as humans, should be consuming any animals milk.

 

Anyone have any hard facts on why dairy ect. is unhealthy for humans?

 

Does anyone else share my views or am I crazy? Lol

 

What do you use as motivation in a very pro-dairy nation (US) to just say no?

 

Also when I am out and about it seems to be so unavoidable. Dairy is in everything! (and in everyone's house) Do you just eat it when you are out? (That's what I have been doing, I never buy any for at home though)


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#2 of 42 Old 02-21-2011, 07:43 PM
 
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I guess the question is, what are your reasons for not eating dairy?  

 


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#3 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Right. Well at first it was b/c DD was intolerant to it. Recently she seems to be getting better, but we don't have dairy in the house.

 

I feel like the cows are completely mistreated unless of course it's a local farm. I think it's to drink another animals breast milk though. I don't see why we need to or where that idea came from. No other species does that.

 

Also having to keep impregnating them to get the milk...IDK I guess since I started BFing it struck a cord with me like wait a min, what if they did that to us as oppose to the cow? I mean that's crazy to be impregnated all the time and lactating all the time and hooked up to breast pumps for hours.

 

I could absolutely never drink milk. It's more like when we are out and there is ice cream cake or something with cheese on it ect. Or if I grab a coffee and didn't bring my creamer...

 

My father worked on a dairy farm for a living growing up. It's not as if it is foreign to me. I just don't understand why we farm animals for milk that is suppose to feed their babies. 

 

What is also hard is some expense of some things I buy like Daiya and Earth's Balance and the Tofutti products. I am also concerned about soy now b/c I fear contamination with GMO soy. Tofutti claims to be GMO free though.


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#4 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 06:15 AM
 
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I love milk but am very allergic, I just cant have it. But If I could I would never buy and dairy unless it was from a farm I knew. Not just a local organic farm. My dh worked for several organic valley, etc dairy's and they were abusive to the cows and they said it was cause they were large scale and they had to to handle the cows.

I think that just as eating meat, people that had little food in some areas had to rely on it to survive. Is it totally weird to drink a different species milk? I just got am email of a story of a woman who rescued a squirrel and it nursed with a new litter of puppies. A friend that had no money was done brestfeeding her son and had rescued some newborn puppies actually nursed her puppies. To keep them alive.

And the idea that cows don't want to be producing milk all the time and just for their young for a few months is wrong. My dh works now for a grass fed beef meat farm and they let the mama cows give birth out in the fields and don't have any contact with the babies except to put hay out in the field feeders every day. The baby cows are a year now and they are like wild animals and guess what, they are still nursing on their mamas even though some of them were over 900 lbs (year old babies)

Not sure if any of this is helping but I do consider dairy a great nutrient of you can tolerate it.
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#5 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 06:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't understand the producing milk statement. I never said they only nursed their babies a few months (I have no idea how long) All I said was they make the milk for their babies just like humans, monkeys, giraffes, ect. I don't see why we steal their milk so we can drink it.


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#6 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 07:10 AM
 
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sosurreal, I'm not in the mood for explaining this right now but I too am against interspecies milk but not against meat (though I am against factory farming, period).

 

However, I'm a hypocrite. I do consume milk (cheese, actually). It's something I continue to think about.

 

Personally, I would not bother to explain my rationale to anyone except someone who might be genuinely interested. I'd claim dairy intolerance, if I didn't consume dairy and needed to explain it. I have not found it worthwhile to explain my moral choices, since it seems to do nothing but motivate people to defend their choices. I'd rather just say "dairy intolerant" and have people go on their merry way than to have people digging in their heels explaining to me why dairy is a moral choice.

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#7 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 08:10 AM
 
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I have just switched over to raw cow and goat milk from a local farm.  I thought I had done a great thing and then I read that even small local farms take the calves away to be bottle fed.  This info is seriously making me re-think dairy altogether.  Can you relate to how I feel?


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#8 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 09:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by blessedwithboys View Post

I have just switched over to raw cow and goat milk from a local farm.  I thought I had done a great thing and then I read that even small local farms take the calves away to be bottle fed.  This info is seriously making me re-think dairy altogether.  Can you relate to how I feel?



Yes, our wonderful, local, raw dairy farm, with cows on pasture and glorious life as it should be - separates mother and baby within 24 hours. I hate it. And this is the "good" farm life.

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#9 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 09:17 AM
 
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.

I don't have much to add, other than the fact that this is not true

 

Quote:
  No other species does that

There are plenty of stories out there of mamma animals who have nursed orphaned animals, like this

There are dogs who have nursed kittens, cats who have nursed puppies etc etc.  And, I know if I make milk available to them, my three cats and my 2 dogs will happily lap it all up.  I have even caught them "cleaning up" drips of my breast milk from a bottle. 

 

Most animals will happily consume the milk of another species, given the opportunity.  The reason you don't see it as often is because the opportunity isn't there all that often, not because it won't provide nutrition for the animal.

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#10 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 09:21 AM
 
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That is true, but it's voluntary, it doesn't involve the taking away of the nursing mother's child for this purpose (maybe she lost her own but that was not done for the purpose of her nursing another), and it doesn't involve the alarming change in species that would lead to difficulty in their very survival (milk cows have been bred produce so much milk that they could not SURVIVE if they only nursed their calf; that is very disturbing to me).

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#11 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 09:32 AM
 
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OP, just out of curiosity, do you eat only meat that you or someone you know has killed? Do you eat meat that is locally grown or 100% hormone free? I noticed that a big part of this is pressure from social situations to eat dairy products that you are against? When you are out and someone is serving pepperoni pizza, do you eat that? My thought is just that no other species processes the hell out of their meat either. They also dont pump animals full of hormones so that they can get the biggest chicken breast in the world.  Somehow Im not seeing the justification for meat over dairy being that you arent "stealing the milk that is supposed to feed their young". When you eat them you are killing them. How is one better than the other? Personally, Id rather be stolen from than killed.


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#12 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 09:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

Right. Well at first it was b/c DD was intolerant to it. Recently she seems to be getting better, but we don't have dairy in the house.

 

I feel like the cows are completely mistreated unless of course it's a local farm. I think it's to drink another animals breast milk though. I don't see why we need to or where that idea came from. No other species does that.

 


 

Just wanted to point out that the argument typically is that no other species drinks breast milk past infancy (or what we often consider childhood). So while you may see a cat nursing a puppy you won't see a cat nursing a full grown dog. If you want more arguments against google not milk and you should get some links. But like a previous poster said the best thing to do in a social situation is claim an intolerance or allergy..people typically are not going to argue or be offended (or threatened) by that.


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#13 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama View Post

OP, just out of curiosity, do you eat only meat that you or someone you know has killed? Do you eat meat that is locally grown or 100% hormone free? I noticed that a big part of this is pressure from social situations to eat dairy products that you are against? When you are out and someone is serving pepperoni pizza, do you eat that? My thought is just that no other species processes the hell out of their meat either. They also dont pump animals full of hormones so that they can get the biggest chicken breast in the world.  Somehow Im not seeing the justification for meat over dairy being that you arent "stealing the milk that is supposed to feed their young". When you eat them you are killing them. How is one better than the other? Personally, Id rather be stolen from than killed.


 

I am very careful of what meat we do eat,(always hormone and antibiotic free and only grassfed beef) but can see your point. However religion ties into that for me and even though I hate the system for what they have done to meat and industrializing it, I do still believe we are suppose to eat meat. If I had more money I would strictly buy pastured meat from farms and I do pray for forgiveness for not being able to do this. I try the best I can with what I have. I do know The Bible does mention milk, butter, and cheese from a variety of species as well...

 

Also I did not know other animals will nurse a baby of another species, but as PP said that also is not a full grown dog nursing. In the US everything is drink your milk, eat our cheese, dairy dairy dairy. There are like HOW many cows being milked daily for human consumption? It is scary not to mention how much waste and pollution these cows make (not by choice obvs).

 

Another PP said the pizza comment yes I do just suck it up and eat the pizza...I like cheese, so it is hard, but I want to really commit to it KWIM. I only get daiya for the house and what not and we buy 0 dairy products so at least we aren't contributing to it, but when we are over someone else's house it is hard to refuse their food. Everyone already knows me and a few years ago I had no issues with dairy and they know I don't have any intolerance issue. I did not know what the industry was like though and very dumbly thought cows just always made milk (what I was told) and did not know it was their breast milk and they had to get impregnated ect ect. When I found that out I changed my views a lot.

 

Now IDK if just severely limiting it to cheese or a little ice cream ect (esp for the kids?) is good enough...People keep trying to convince me it's fine and dairy is great and it won't make a difference if I don't eat it anyways b/c it is so big in the US.

 

 

ALSO I am not posting this to have a "dairy vs. non dairy fight" I posted it to see if there was anyone else who SHARED my feelings and what they thought about my situations ect ect

 

If you LOVE dairy that is your business and I am not trying to convince people to change their minds or anything in this post. Just so you all know.


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#14 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 10:49 AM
 
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That is true, but it's voluntary, it doesn't involve the taking away of the nursing mother's child for this purpose (maybe she lost her own but that was not done for the purpose of her nursing another), and it doesn't involve the alarming change in species that would lead to difficulty in their very survival (milk cows have been bred produce so much milk that they could not SURVIVE if they only nursed their calf; that is very disturbing to me).



Yes, I agree.  My point was only that one species milk is just as nutritous as another's and that animals don't typically avoid the milk of another species because it's not nutritious. 

 



Quote:
Origi


 

Just wanted to point out that the argument typically is that no other species drinks breast milk past infancy (or what we often consider childhood). So while you may see a cat nursing a puppy you won't see a cat nursing a full grown dog.

 

 No, but if a puddle of milk of any animal ends up on the ground, most animals will lap it up, regardless of which species produced it.  Most animals will drink any fluid available to them (which is why we have to be sure to keep motor oil and paint thinner and such all up out of our pets reach.)

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#15 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 10:53 AM
 
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Well I had a full grown 6 yr old cat nurse on my dog. They were best pals.
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#16 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 02:32 PM
 
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Everyone already knows me and a few years ago I had no issues with dairy and they know I don't have any intolerance issue.

 

I used to consume dairy ... but my state of health changed (2 separate issues => a lot of items that I have had to recently suppress from my "can eat/drink" list) so am now on an off dairy & off sugar diet .... it's much easier now that I've mentionned that I just can't have just any food as before (and for some people you need to repeat yourself).

 

You don't have to discuss your health issues with anyone except your doctor .... why can't you just say "No, thank you, I cannot have this, something to do with some health issue"

 

Whatever your reasons for saying "no", just say "no" .... your state of health might have changed and is not especially other people's business (or if it used to be, that can change, you might become unwilling to share much about the subject from now on ...)

 

I know, sometimes it's odd (I've had to bring some packed lunch last week-end and was eating from a box standing in a parking lot between errands) but once you've practiced saying "no" regularly it becomes easier (I grant you that my situation might be easier since I'm visiting someone who also as a "can't eat this or that list"... a different one from mine ... & when I received this person in my home lately, I was very accomodating ... so am now feeling very "accepted" in their home since I can prepare my own stuff when I need to ... => when you know other people with the same issue of "off foodstuff", it feels less weird to just say "no, thanks; I can't have this")

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#17 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 05:13 PM
 
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We have a couple of dairy goats that we use mostly for milk for our family (we sell any excess if we have a buyer).  We don't separate the kids from their mothers except for overnight, and then only after the kids are two weeks old and are eating grain and hay as well.  This means we only milk once a day (morning), and the kids' nursing takes care of the evening milking for us.  The does will wean their kids on their own, usually around 7 months when they get bred again.  Just FYI.

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#18 of 42 Old 02-22-2011, 05:26 PM
 
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humans (and other mammals) have been consuming inter-species milk for thousands of years - domestication for milk is nothing new, very far from new

 

I find it highly hypocritical to eat flesh and have a problem with milk.

 

problem with production is not the same as problem with consumption

 


 

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#19 of 42 Old 02-23-2011, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Pirogi View Post

We have a couple of dairy goats that we use mostly for milk for our family (we sell any excess if we have a buyer).  We don't separate the kids from their mothers except for overnight, and then only after the kids are two weeks old and are eating grain and hay as well.  This means we only milk once a day (morning), and the kids' nursing takes care of the evening milking for us.  The does will wean their kids on their own, usually around 7 months when they get bred again.  Just FYI.


See this is the right way to do it, but this is also rare.


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#20 of 42 Old 02-25-2011, 06:03 AM
 
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humans (and other mammals) have been consuming inter-species milk for thousands of years - domestication for milk is nothing new, very far from new

 

I find it highly hypocritical to eat flesh and have a problem with milk.

 

problem with production is not the same as problem with consumption

 

 

This.  I'd guess that, if given a choice, mama cow would rather have her milk "stolen" than be killed and eaten.

 

Do you know why cows are revered in India, and other cultures?  It's because of their milk.  It's literally life giving, especially in countries where food is scarce.  Actually, I just a letter in the mail from a charity I donate to, who's purchasing large quantities of powdered whole milk for Finland (I think it was Finland) to give to children in places like Haiti.  One girl they spoke of was 1 year old and weighed 7 pounds.  She's a healthy 2 year old now, due in large part to the daily milk that the charity provides.  I guess it's all well and good to pontificate about the morality of milk consumption in the West, but try to remember that it's literally the difference between life and death in some places. I'd also wager that this is why there's a long history of milk consumption and domestication of dairy animals.  When food is scarce, milk will keep you going.  Using an animal for milk also provides nutrition for a much longer time, and for more people, than killing it for meat does.

 

We drink the milk of other species because it's an extremely nutritious, nutrient dense food; it's a nearly complete food.
 

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#21 of 42 Old 02-25-2011, 06:16 AM
 
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) All I said was they make the milk for their babies just like humans, monkeys, giraffes, ect. I don't see why we steal their milk so we can drink it.


 

So you're arguing that they produce muscle and organs just for us to eat?  I know you said you didn't want a "dairy vs non-dairy" argument, but when you make inflammatory comments about "stealing" milk and sweeping statements about how "we" aren't supposed to drink it (especially in a forum where many people do consume dairy), people are going to challenge you.

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#22 of 42 Old 02-25-2011, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
 
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IDK what to tell you I see eating meat form an animal vastly different from drinking it's breast milk. I did not post this for a battle so perhaps I will just get rid of it since people are so defensive about it...

 

I also highly doubt 3rd world countries treat the cows how America does. I think their entire lives in pain and suffering to be milked and overproduce it, in a cage their whole life 10+ years (25 if not in the dairy industry), covered in their own feces...not painting a pretty or appetizing picture to me.


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#23 of 42 Old 02-25-2011, 11:22 AM
 
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making blanket statements about an industry can be very misleading

 

my local dairy (non-organic) takes milk from many different farms, you can drive by and see what farms participate and even see the cows out in the fields, besides touring farms

 

taking calfs away from the mothers has been a cultural practice for thousands of years

 

there are lots of alternatives if you choose non-industry milk, many also separate young as well

 

taking milk from another animal is one thing, choice of industry practice is another-the OP does not make a clear statement -IMO


 

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#24 of 42 Old 02-25-2011, 07:05 PM
 
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"Do you know why cows are revered in India, and other cultures? "

 

It goes beyond just reverence; dairy is fundamental to Indo-European culture. In the myth, cows are symbols of fertility, life, wealth. In some myths they're involved with the creation of the world (google Audumla). There's an incredibly large mythic tradition of the cattle raid going from India to Ireland. Anyone who speaks English (so, everyone reading this) wouldn't be here without dairy as the cultural heritage of all of us is based largely on dairy.

 

Or, we eat dairy because our ancestors ate dairy to the point that it's the foundation of many many cultures.


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#25 of 42 Old 02-26-2011, 08:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

I think it is hard for people to understand that I eat meat but am against dairy. I keep finding it really hard to stick with this and then beat myself up when I "give in". Logically it makes no sense to me to consume another animals breast milk. I also am sickened by the dairy industry as a whole and do not feel we, as humans, should be consuming any animals milk.


I signed up here to comment on this post. :) Currently I eat a lot of dairy, but I can see why from a paleo perspective it might not be healthy. Mostly as time passes I do more thinking about what is required to produce it. In theory, I have no problem with making use of extra milk produced by a breed of cow that makes more milk than a calf drinks with free or reasonable access.

 

In practice, the kind of effort we put into forcing most dairy cows to maximize output starts to seem pretty perverse. A lifetime of mechanical impregnations followed by calf separations, the whole dairy industrial complex of production "machines" restrained and hooked up to milking devices. And then you have to do something with all the male calves. To me even as a dairy eater it seems weird the same way that poultry bred to rapidly develop white meat so large and heavy that the birds' legs collapse within several weeks is weird, kwim?

 

Then it combines weird with the unavoidable fact that dairy is a food we most often get by keeping an animal forceably continuously pregnant, taking her calf away from her, and taking the calf's natural food supply for ourselves.

 

By contrast, there is nothing unnatural about eating the meat of an animal you've killed, and to many people nothing unethical if the animal was raised and killed well. sosurreal, correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's what you're getting at. I don't think she was originally trying to be inflammatory and neither am I (after all I eat a ton of dairy these days), it's just something I've done a lot of thinking about.

 

Btw while Hindu culture certainly reveres the cow, all the male cattle and non-producing cows have to go somewhere and Indians have to do a good job of turning a blind eye where it suits them. Officially cattle exports are banned in India but about 2 million cattle a year are smuggled to Bangladesh to be slaughtered for beef.

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#26 of 42 Old 02-26-2011, 08:50 PM
 
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Im with you OP - that consuming cows milk in America today - is unnecessary.  I do think its weird that we drink their milk.  Why dont we drink dog or cat milk?   Most other cultures - Asia, Africa, most of Polynesia - never did it, cows werent indigenous in those areas.  I think cows milk was responsible for causing ear infections in my older kids when they were young.  My now 15 yr. old daughter had many ear infections as a baby (formula fed, weaned to cows milk at 1)  when my son (breastfed til 9 months - formula fed, weaned to cows milk at 1)  started developing them as well i took him off all dairy products - he never had another ear infection.  I did bring dairy back  when my son was 2.  

I have a new LO - who is 6 mo old and i have a commitment to extended breastfeeding that i didnt have with my older children.  I really dont want him to have any dairy products until he is about 3 or so, and yes, it will be an uphill battle trying to  explain to my MIL why he cant have ice cream on his first birthday.  Many older generations still think a large glass of milk is good for overall health - (or imply that  glass of cows milk would be better for my LO than to keep on nursing him)  and i dont agree with that.  i think that if we - as a culture - were more comfortable with extended breastfeeding - cows milk would seem more out of place.

I personally ate so much cheese and ice cream as a young adult that i am lactose intolerant now.  My 15 yr old daughter was diagnosed with Crohns Disease recently and has had to eliminate dairy - now my 12 yr old son has seen us and is afraid to have milk!  He  has switched to hemp milk - for the most part.  He still eats pizza - which i miss terribly!   We all eat meat.


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#27 of 42 Old 02-26-2011, 09:10 PM
 
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Quote:
 Why dont we drink dog or cat milk?

 Practicality.  A cat isn't going to produce much milk, it would take substantially more cats to get the same amount as we get from one cow.  Same with a dog.  Not to mention the whole, how to keep and milk a cat thing.  However, plenty of people drink the milk of animals other than cows-goats, sheep, etc.   

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#28 of 42 Old 02-27-2011, 04:06 PM
 
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I'm not going to touch the dairy vs. no dairy vs. meat thing, but I would imagine the easiest way to deal with this when out is to just tell people you don't consume dairy. If you aren't comfortable explaining your reasons, you can always say "It's a long story" and leave it at that, or something similar. I hate to advocate lying, but if push comes to shove, you could blame an allergy. 

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#29 of 42 Old 02-27-2011, 05:07 PM
 
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I would agree with just saying that you can't or don't use dairy products. If it was going to be a fight then just tell them that you can't. I think the pressure to breastfeed is getting stronger (in my area at least) and I hear a lot of mothers expecting or that just had babies being asked if they breastfeed or plan to and they say they can't. I know some people can't but I really think some of them never tried (some I know haven't and still say they 'can't'). They say can't so they don't have to defend why they don't. It's your personal choice how you take care of your family whether that is breastfeeding, vax, birthing choices, discipline, dietary issues or any other number of things. If you don't feel that it's appropriate to use dairy then don't. There's no reason you should have to defend yourself. We all have our opinions on a number of issues and aren't going to agree on everything. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not about to question your reasons for not eating dairy or say that you are wrong from not eating dairy when you'll eat meat. That's just wrong. Some people eat certain types of meat but not others are they wrong too? Bleh. Not my choice to decide for you. Do what you feel is right for your own and just don't worry about others that disagree.

 

For the record we are a meat eating and dairy consuming family. I understand your concerns and thoughts though although it just isn't an issue for me. I do hope that we can soon get to our own little homestead so that I can at least know exactly what is being done with the animals and what we are consuming. I saw major debates a couple of years ago though over the hormones being given to dairy cows and how hormones in milk were causing a shift in menstrual issues for women. Interesting reads and I definitely started watching that. I have also pondered the dairy thing before though especially with so many issues with children and dairy. If it's so unhealthy for our babies how is it much healthier for our children kwim? I agree there are a lot of things to consider with every decision we make. Just go with your instincts!

 


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#30 of 42 Old 02-28-2011, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Yes abundant that is what I am saying for the most part. orngbiggrin.gif

 


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