ramiel nagel- whole grains cause tooth decay??? - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 34 Old 09-27-2011, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://www.curetoothdecay.com/Tooth_Decay/whole_grains_cause_tooth_decay.htm 

 

anyone read this? i'm confused by it. he says whole grains, even sprouted or fermented, the phytates will block the absorption of minerals? He recommends sifting to remove most of the bran and germ, wouldn't that basically make it white flour/rice??? What am I missing?

 

he also talks about it here: http://www.healingourchildren.org/Pregnancy_Diet/whole_grains_pregnancy.htm 

 

if you scroll down to the part on indigenous people he says:

 

Quote:

As in many cultures across the world, the Swiss natives started with a whole rye kernel. But after grinding it slowly on a stone wheel, they sifted the rye and removed approximately ¼ of the flour mixture by weight of all impurities. Bran and germ consist of approximately 15-20% of the entire kernel. To be clear, if they started with one cup of flour, after sifting they would have ¾ of a cup of flour remaining. This rye bread still probably contained trace amounts of bran and germ vitamins. Even without knowing the science of phytic acid and lectins, they removed the phytic acid through fermentation, and removed toxic lectins in the germ and bran of the rye grain by sifting out the germ and the bran completely. It is likely then that the safe consumption of our most common grains similar to rye, like wheat, kamut, spelt, and barley involve a substantial or complete removal of the bran and the germ.  

 


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#2 of 34 Old 10-05-2011, 09:13 PM
 
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No you're not missing anything!

I'm re-reading his book currently, and this section stood out to me as well.  He actually does say that if you are to buy flour at the store, buy organic white flour, NOT whole wheat flour b/c of the phytic acid levels.  He amends this by saying he doesn't recommend anyone who is trying to seriously combat tooth decay to eat white flour products of any kind.  I just got all gung ho reading this, and have now outlawed rolled oats from our kitchen.  We also no longer eat brown rice, only organic white basmati rice.  What I take to be his main point is that, those of us in Western culture who have compromised immune systems, and thus, issues w/ ph balance and thus, tooth decay, need to not eat any grains at all, especially in light of the fact, that we truly have no way of knowing exactly how our ancestors prepared these grains.  So many of our issues w/ foods goes back to seed variety, the lessening of diversity and strength of the seed stock, farming practices, and then, the insane fear based food regulations of our govn't.  All of this then, ends up in a grain or legume that is maybe not quite as vibrantly healthy as those grains of generations past.  I am a total foodies, and wannabe nutritionist, and I so often get overwhelmed by all the conflicting advice out there! 

 

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#3 of 34 Old 10-08-2011, 04:27 PM
 
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Interesting!

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#4 of 34 Old 10-08-2011, 04:43 PM
 
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Yes, but there's also the section where he talks about making a brown rice "starter" (or something like that) where it removes up to 96% (I think that was the #) of the phytates. That's what I do now and it's the only grain we eat.


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#5 of 34 Old 10-10-2011, 12:13 AM
 
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I really, really don't understand why this man has so much clout in some circles. His website is shoddily scrapped together, plagued with grammar and spelling errors, push push pushes his book, and screams "no credibility!" (to me). Also, um, HE'S NOT A DOCTOR. Or in possession of any degree/schooling that would render him qualified to "cure tooth decay". 

 

I just . . . don't. get. it.

 

Why the superstar status? Someone please explain?

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#6 of 34 Old 10-10-2011, 03:36 PM
 
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No matter how unprofessional he is, what he lays out works.
Tooth decays will heal much faster following his guidelines.


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#7 of 34 Old 10-10-2011, 05:29 PM
 
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I don't find him shoddy or not credible at all.  He's right about the phytates.  They're in nuts and seeds as well.  Here is his complete analysis of how to prepare grains, nuts, etc. to minimize phytates.  My daughter has rapid decay, so I am now on top of this.  http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid

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#8 of 34 Old 10-13-2011, 06:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayward View Post

I really, really don't understand why this man has so much clout in some circles. His website is shoddily scrapped together, plagued with grammar and spelling errors, push push pushes his book, and screams "no credibility!" (to me). Also, um, HE'S NOT A DOCTOR. Or in possession of any degree/schooling that would render him qualified to "cure tooth decay". 

 

I just . . . don't. get. it.

 

Why the superstar status? Someone please explain?


I totally agree. He has no qualifications and I can't trust much of what he says. Especially since I emailed him once of what I was experimenting with for my teeth several years back and he posted it on his website quoted and telling all you followers of what is gospel. If you followed it, it could lead you astray. Who knows what else is made up? I don't think he knows entirely what he is talking about.

Read his stuff, and pick it apart, research way more and do what feels right.
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#9 of 34 Old 11-14-2011, 03:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treehugginhippie View Post

Yes, but there's also the section where he talks about making a brown rice "starter" (or something like that) where it removes up to 96% (I think that was the #) of the phytates. That's what I do now and it's the only grain we eat.


Hi!

 

Can you tell me how you do this to brown rice?

I love brown rice, but would love it to be healthier, if possible.

Many thanks!

 

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#10 of 34 Old 11-14-2011, 06:38 PM
 
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Sure! What you do is soak the brown rice overnight in water (16-24 hrs) and then save 10% of the soaking water and dump out the rest of the soaking water, putting in fresh water to cook it. Put that 10% in the fridge in a container. Then the next time you soak brown rice, add that 10% soaking water from before and add a bit more fresh water. Then again, save 10% of that water just before cooking. I think by the 5th time, you get up to 96% phytate reduction.

 

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Originally Posted by countryangels View Post


Hi!

 

Can you tell me how you do this to brown rice?

I love brown rice, but would love it to be healthier, if possible.

Many thanks!

 



 


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#11 of 34 Old 12-05-2011, 09:58 PM
 
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No library in my state has his book, anyone know where I can get it for cheap?  Anyone have any other book recommendations for books that are similar to his?  Besides the continuum concept and weston price

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#12 of 34 Old 01-04-2012, 01:10 PM
 
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Did you try the used section of Amazon?

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Originally Posted by 1love4ever View Post

No library in my state has his book, anyone know where I can get it for cheap?  Anyone have any other book recommendations for books that are similar to his?  Besides the continuum concept and weston price



 

 


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yes  theyre the same price, but i clicked the "see a random page in this book" link and i can read the book!!  http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_5?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ramiel+nagel&sprefix=ramie

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#15 of 34 Old 08-10-2012, 07:50 AM
 
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I am also reading Ramiel Nagel's book. You are wise to be confused because he seems confused. I also read Weston Price's "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" which Ramiel uses as a source for his recommendations, but then he goes contrary to Price's own recommendations. Weston Price recommends eating whole grains, not white grains. Nagel talks against grains, especially whole, because of the phytic acid in them. On page 14 of Nagel's book, he takes a table out of Price's book showing the Swiss traditional diet with almost perfect immunity to tooth decay because of their natural whole foods diet rich in cow and goat dairy, whole rye bread, and barley and vegetables with a bit of meat once or twice a week. The rye bread comprised 800 of their 2000 caloric intake and the barley comprised 100 calories. So if whole grains were so dangerous, these people would not have had nearly perfect dental health while eating almost half of their dietary intake in grains.

 

I have so many other objections to his book.I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian and my kids have great dental health, while his daughter's teeth are blackened with decay according to Nagel's own statements. He recommends an enormous amount of meat in his ideal diet, including lots of animal fats. I think that his ideas are too concentrated on one thing. Also, traditional diets in Price's observations were eaten by people who were not sedentary. We can't imitate their diets without imitating their lifestyles. So I would be concerned about the high animal based recommendations. We can get the vitamins, calcium, and phosphorus that Price recommends while eating lacto-vegetarian foods and have nice teeth without decay.

 

Nagel is not a dentist. All of his evidence is based on anecdotal stories and his conclusions from other authors. Be wary of just following anyone's advice. Read several sources that seem to confirm your research before following just anyone's ideas.
 

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#16 of 34 Old 08-11-2012, 10:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayward View Post

I really, really don't understand why this man has so much clout in some circles. His website is shoddily scrapped together, plagued with grammar and spelling errors, push push pushes his book, and screams "no credibility!" (to me). Also, um, HE'S NOT A DOCTOR. Or in possession of any degree/schooling that would render him qualified to "cure tooth decay". 

 

I just . . . don't. get. it.

 

Why the superstar status? Someone please explain?


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Dealing with some serious and very unexpected tooth decay (underlying problem we soon discovered being Celiac), I threw us head first into the program he called for.  I did so much right and I tried working so naturally - but no matter what I did, it progressed.  My little guy needed intervention and we were able to research up to the wazoo to find a really good holistic pedi dentist who met our requests and treated him in a way I was happy with, but it took time to get over the guilt that I had *failed* his program.  Until I did some research and realized that it's not pushed by the medical community because actual clinical trials have failed.  Repeatedly.


 

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#17 of 34 Old 08-11-2012, 10:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by treehugginhippie View Post

Sure! What you do is soak the brown rice overnight in water (16-24 hrs) and then save 10% of the soaking water and dump out the rest of the soaking water, putting in fresh water to cook it. Put that 10% in the fridge in a container. Then the next time you soak brown rice, add that 10% soaking water from before and add a bit more fresh water. Then again, save 10% of that water just before cooking. I think by the 5th time, you get up to 96% phytate reduction.

I do 2 cups of dry rice with 3-4 cups of water, but I reserve 1/2 cup of the soaking fluid.  After 3 cycles, it drastically reduces the phytic acid.  I wish I could say that's "precisely" why we do it, but honestly it's because brown rice, 1) cooks much faster once soaked, 2) tastes INCREDIBLY better after soaking - so much more tender!!


 

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#18 of 34 Old 08-12-2012, 03:58 AM
 
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I do 2 cups of dry rice with 3-4 cups of water, but I reserve 1/2 cup of the soaking fluid.  After 3 cycles, it drastically reduces the phytic acid.  I wish I could say that's "precisely" why we do it, but honestly it's because brown rice, 1) cooks much faster once soaked, 2) tastes INCREDIBLY better after soaking - so much more tender!!

Do you rinse the rice with hot water in a strainer before you soak ? I do that with all my grains right before I cook them  , but would love to try the rice soaking idea 


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#19 of 34 Old 08-12-2012, 12:49 PM
 
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Do you rinse the rice with hot water in a strainer before you soak ? I do that with all my grains right before I cook them  , but would love to try the rice soaking idea 


Lol, no...I probably should.  Honestly, I just plop them in there, add the soaking fluid, the top off with other water.  I use an old glass jar from jam and then cover with cheese cloth and place on the counter for a day.  Then I take out 1/2 cup, pop it into a container, and strain/rinse the rest before adding water to cook.  The first time you do it, you really should measure the water before/after.  I think it was 2 cups grains, 4 cups water, then after soaking there was only 3 cups water.  *That's* the amount you add to cook, 3 cups water, since it already absorbed 1 cup water soaking.  Otherwise you get too much water.  Nowadays I don't tend to add as much soak water, just kind of eyeball it, but with 2 cups rice I always use 3 cups water to cook no matter what I used to soak.


 

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#20 of 34 Old 08-20-2012, 12:19 PM
 
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I don't think it matters whether Rami has any medical credentials or not. He's definitely on to something when he claims no traditional cultures consumed their grains unrefined. There are a handful examples of them, sure, but for the vast majority, the bran and germ was largely removed (up to 95%).  Sally Fallon has no references to her claim that traditional people consumed whole grain. However, there is a recipe in her book for Ogi that calls for sifting the bran out of millet.  

 

The Swiss Alp group studied by Price did not consume whole rye. Compare their bread's nutritional analysis with sifted commercial flour, and there's only a slight difference. The difference would be substantial if the rye was whole grain. My guess is that Price had a preconceived idea that whole grains were better, along with his belief in vegetarianism as superior (before starting out on his travels). And apparently he didn't check to see whether the rye was sifted or not after grinding. Rami cites another source for this, but I've checked it and it's outdated. However, I think the data from Price's book is evidence enough. 

 

On a purely intuitive level, bran containing food is a bit repulsive. It tastes bitter and is chewy. When I used to make cookies with sprouted flour, I spit out the mass of bran at the end.

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#21 of 34 Old 08-21-2012, 01:16 AM
 
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We stopped eating all grains 20 months ago. Previously we ate sprouted grains (five years previously, also traditional European diet otherwise), and lots of animal and fat, and my caries healed even with the grain. Since then, my 2 yr old toddler has ended up with terrible decay on her two front teeth on top, and two to one side of those, also on top. It occurred to me that her teeth were uncovered by her sweet top lip while sleeping, so I began an investigation of my own, into her mouth. It turned out that the tongue tie she was born with had grown back in. So, I had it clipped again, and immediately, her top lip descended into a relaxed position, during sleep as well, and the four teeth began healing immediately, now having just a light yellow staining where they used to be dark brown. It has only been a few weeks, so I expect that they will continue to improve.

 

It seems it's not always directly diet that causes caries, though an argument could be made for diet being the cause of the tongue-tie, I suppose. I haven't figured this out, and she's the third of my five children with the tongue tie, and the second child to need a second clipping.

 

I would gladly receive info on diet-caused tongue-tie, if anyone has any. I'd love to avoid any future clippings if possible. And any more caries!

 

ETA: None of us have any caries presently other than our 2 yr old. We eat a paleo diet- no grains, legumes, or dairy, ever. Lots of meat, veggies, and fat, moderate fruit, some starchy tubers.


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#22 of 34 Old 08-22-2012, 01:47 PM
 
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Is caries and tongue-ties the only health problems, major or minor, that you and/or your kids deal with? 

 

Have you yourself had issues with decreased thyroid function?

 

I tend to believe that there's a diet for everyone, and it's not so much about what foods or nutrients you get, but more about eating what you intuitively crave (healthily of course). For some that might actually be grains and a higher overall quantity of starches. It's easier looking at individual health problems from a big picture perspective. Strengthen overall health, and you'll likely see improvements on the individual symptoms. 

 

The reason starches and a large portion of carbs might be good for certain people (though I would argue quite a few) is that they feed the metabolism. A weak metabolism can cause a ton of different problems, in kids it's common to see caries, poor vision, hyperactivity among others. 

 

Diet is important, but reducing other stressors is equally so. Like getting enough sleep and healthy exercise, minimizing emotional stress, environmental pollutants and so forth. 

 

I googled tongue tie and hypothyroid and there seems to be some correlation. I found it mentioned in this book Primary Care Pediatrics, that congenital hypothyroidism can cause tongue related problems.

 

http://books.google.se/books?id=o43u_qWT4asC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=tongue+ties+hypothyroid&source=bl&ots=K_10nshSzM&sig=Nh22RdZHK-y4gsdqdII2X52pZLM&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tongue%20ties%20hypothyroid&f=false

 

Not to say that paleo is inherently metabolism lowering, but where people subsisted on a low carb diet, they made sure to include glandular food in their diets, basically in order to procreate.  low metabolism makes this otherwise very difficult. You could say that where carbs were available, people used that to maintain a high metabolism, but in the north, people ate things like thyroid glands from caribou getting ready to mate. 

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#23 of 34 Old 08-23-2012, 01:35 PM
 
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ImogenSkye, I found this:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/706203/do-you-think-tongue-tie-is-related-to-diet

 

There doesn't seem to be much info at all on the cause of TT. 

 

My DD is 11 m and was diagnosed with TT, and lip tie, 2 m ago, after she had lost weight since 14 wks of age and bascially I had no supply.  We can't get anyone locally to fix it (utterly ridiculous) and can't afford to travel 3000 km to Ottawa or NY atm.  I'm worried about her though, that she will have speech and dental problems.  She chatters like crazy but only says Mama and we think she is trying to say Papa and a few other things.  She has 6 teeth , big gap in the top two, and I was examining them and it seems the top ones might be turning brownish.

 

Her diet is great, only 100% homemade whole foods.  Never had grains or sugars (DH and I do eat soaked/sour grains in moderation and honey).  Since I no longer have milk, she has a raw goat or cows milk, although I plan on nursing her again after #2 is born.  I'm frustrated about the whole issue especially worried that our 2nd and future children will have it, I do NOT want to have such trouble nursing again nor do I want to travel so far with a brand new baby to have them treated. 

 

I do think there is a genetic component, DH (15 m younger than his sister) has a posterior TT (like DD's) and his sister's (eldest) was so bad she had it clipped as a baby, as well as one or more of his cousins.  My dad has a lip tie.  I ate a SAD diet with DD, I have been much improved this time around and I was taking FCLO prior to and after conception, so I'm praying #2 won't have it.  Just have to wait and see.   


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#24 of 34 Old 08-23-2012, 04:55 PM
 
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TT is suspected to be linked to a damaged gut


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#25 of 34 Old 08-24-2012, 07:26 PM
 
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Thank you so much for your replies and info! I am preparing to move 7000kms away next week, so I haven't been checking in, even though I've been hoping that someone might have ideas.

 

To answer some questions, I do have a history of hypothyroid, and did while pregnant with all of my children. Two had TT as newborns and one only developed it after turning seven. That was odd. All of them have been clipped now, and the caries in our 2 yr old's mouth are healing rapidly. 

 

I discovered after posting, and putting a flashlight into my children's mouths, that two of my children each have a small carrie in their six-yr old molar on the bottom right. Then, I discovered that I have one in the very same place on the same tooth! So I looked up tooth mapping for organs and emotions and found the symptoms relate strongly to adrenal stress, and just from a purely physiological perspective, this past winter was brutally cold, and torturously long, then our summer lasted two weeks, and has been cold otherwise. Usually, we have some reprieve from the cold winter with a longer, warmer summer. It has been the coldest on record for the past 50 years, and by a lot. These two children were born in the south, and show symptoms of intolerance to the cold. I definitely do, and suffered a serious hypothermic episode two years ago that resulted in nerve damage to my legs (which has healed significantly recently, even with the cool summer, but still isn't back to normal).

 

This stress on our genetically moderate-climate bodies is a major reason why we are leaving the north. Our diet includes organ meats and as wide a variety of foods as we can obtain up here, which is not nearly as much as down south. We have been eating as much pastured meat as possible, and raised our own last year, consuming the organs as well. When we arrive at our moderate-climate southern home (just north of coastal Maine, with the warmest waters in all of Canada, though still with winter, but for 3-4 months instead of 9 like up here), we will have more variety and also we will be eating wild as much as possible. I am looking forward to that. When we eat wild up here, we feel so much better, but unfortunately, it ha been a bit of wilderness famine with the blossoms having died early in the spring from cold; even the bears are coming into towns and breaking into houses to get food from the lack of wild vegetation and prey that eats it.

 

We take D3, Mg oil topically, and supplement with ionic minerals. I don't know if we can do anything else, but from what I have read in my anthropological studies, we are really not going to adapt to our climate up here, and that alone could be a major contributing factor in our physical health. Our guts do very well in moderate temps, but during the winter, the more exposure we have, the harder it is to absorb nutrients, and I see symptoms of deficiency of nutrients that we consume in large bio-available quantities, and that during the summer, these symptoms disappear.

 

I think we just need to be warmer. I will update when I can. We'll be "dark" beginning Aug 31st and until we can set up our satellite internet. Until then, I will check in, and thank you again; I'm going to look into what you wrote more so that I can see if there's anything else I can do to improve the situation.


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#26 of 34 Old 08-24-2012, 08:02 PM
 
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Interesting reading. I didn't realize that eating whole grains could cause tooth decay. Does brushing teeth daily not help at all with the decaying process? I am not sure if I am strong enough to do away with whole grains in my diet. Please help.
 


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#27 of 34 Old 08-25-2012, 01:39 PM
 
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Lynn, I'm sure it is different for everyone, but in my family, and especially me personally, grain-consumption has impaired our ability to absorb nutrients, and as you can tell  from my above post, we really cannot afford any unnecessary hindrances to our digestion (at the very least, the climate we live in has caused a lot of physical distress, so we're moving). When we quit grain, by the next day, we had to quit dairy too, and very soon thereafter, a lot of other food sensitivities surfaced while our guts healed. We all lost a lot of water weight within the first week, which meant we peed like crazy, and we have never been a heavy-grain family; we ate a soaked-whole-grain-with lot-of-eggs baked food for breakfast and that was it with very few exceptions. We've been able to reintroduce some foods more recently without any of the issues they started to cause with our previously perforated guts, such as tomatoes. 

 

That nutrient-absorption hindrance from grains did cause me and my man to have caries earlier in our lives, and for me, they all healed, except the new one I have now (again in my earlier post). I think it is possible to not have dental caries while eating grain, but if you have them and you are eating grain, there is a possible correlation at least, and maybe even evidence of causation.

 

I figure if I'm not doing the most basic things for my health like good diet, good sleep, and general well-being activities, then I shouldn't expect to be healthy. So if I AM doing those things, and I still have health problems, then I start asking for help figuring it out. In my case, our climate is an issue, and sleep is too, which I think is also connected to the climate-caused issues. I've always had low thyroid, but never, ever ever like since we moved to the north. Also, I don't have to take my thyroid hormones now that I'm eating more carbs (another post on here ;).

 

I'm in a big rush right at the moment; I'll check in later. :)


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#28 of 34 Old 08-26-2012, 01:54 PM
 
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Lynn, for someone with weak tooth enamel, brushing does help. But it's not what saves your teeth. Strong, healthy teeth don't need brushing at all. There are people over at Matt Stone's blog who report getting stronger teeth after having increased their metabolism, and when they do, eating foods high in sugar does not hurt their teeth. It might explain why I know so many caries stricken families in the alternative community, yet very few in the more conventional crowd. 

 

Rami notes in his book that he gets emails from people who recently switched to a wholesome/whole grain diet and now have tons of cavities. My son has been cavity free since we gave up brown rice in favor of white. I think his argument that for a healthy adult, phytic acid and lectins are not a concern, but for growing kids it commonly is.

 

You could try refined grains instead of whole? See how it works for you. The idea that whole grains are better than refined is based on the notion that a food is best if it's a complete food. But what food is a complete food (besides dairy)? Meat's not, has little carbs, but it's still nutritious. We just eat it with carbs. Same goes for refined grains. It's stripped of minerals, but it's also stripped of most of the phytic acid and all the lectins. Get the minerals from bone stock. Get all your B vitamins from liver. Glucose is a very important nutrient, which is why people all over the world eat grains and starchy root vegetables as a large part of their diet. 

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#29 of 34 Old 08-27-2012, 02:41 PM
 
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ImogenSkye, I hope you will all start feeling better in a warmer climate!  I've been to the area of Canada you are moving too- it is beautiful!  Wish I could convince DH to move there :)

 

Kmamma, thanks for sharing that on whole vs. refined grains.  My DH hates brown rice, he says growing up in Portugal they ate basmati (white).  I on the other hand, don't care for white rice, I find it very bland and not satisfying at all. 


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#30 of 34 Old 08-28-2012, 02:34 PM
 
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Your husband grew up in Portugal--where? I'm half Portuguese myself, but grew up in Sweden. On my trips there I've learned they commonly eat their rice with fried potatoes. Or at least in restaurants. I find the combination very satisfying. Can't eat rice on its own really. I suppose in many rice eating cultures, it's eaten with a vegetable of some kind. 

 

When I switched my son to white rice, he did say he missed the taste of brown rice. Which is why I want to try milled rice, which retains some of the bran. I personally don't mind the taste of brown rice so much as the texture--having that mass of bran left in my mouth after the starch is all broken down. Hmm, if that makes sense!? It does concern me that there is no history of any people ever eating brown rice. That carries a lot of weight for me. It just seems that if people put so much effort into removing the bran, it's for good reason. I know of many people who get a stomach ache from brown rice. 

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