Is bone broth all that it is hyped up to be? Lets talk about TF myths... - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 65 Old 11-26-2011, 04:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I am not a newbie to TF's. I have done the soaked grains, sourdoughs, super fermented yogurt, all the ferments, buckets of bone broth, K2 like you wouldn't believe, etc...

Some where along the TF path, I have got it wrong. I want to talk about this with you all and have a real meaty discussion.



So about bone broth, I make it all the time. I try to use grass fed beef bones as DH gets them for free working at an organic grass fed beef farm. I get on kicks with broth, and the times when I use more of it, my joints hurt and I get a horrble plaque build up on my teethand DH's diablity back injury gets worse and he has to consume a ton of magnesium to deal with it. So I wonder if bone broth is messing with our mineral balance? Maybe we are consuming too much with a cup a day. But then again, my teeth are decaying pretty bad and my dentist thinks I need to take a calcium. But wouldn't there be enough in bone broth?
What I am thinking is that bone broth in the TF communityy gets too hyped up and I really havent seen the huge benifits like a wonder food.
It hasn't been this amazing healing food for me. I would love to hear your good and bad stories about your use of bone broth and other TF's.

I wonder if somewhere this way of eating can go overboard to be actually detrimental.
Anyone leave TF to eating conventional again?
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#2 of 65 Old 11-26-2011, 05:56 AM
 
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I think tooth decay is a complicated matter and often can't be solved with bone broth only. When I was growing up, we ate homemade meals every day, a bone broth based dish was on the table *every* day, I drank raw milk and kefirs that my mom and grandma made at home, there was no soda in the house, and yet my teeth still got a lot of cavities.

 

Gout (podagra) is an inflammatory joint disease that is aggravated by purines in broth. (I read a long while ago that is was called "the disease of the rich" because only the wealthy could afford stock-based sauces every day. Two French cuisine main sauces are based on white stock and brown stock - the aristocracy enjoyed those and was plagued with gout.)

 

Broth can has counter indications because it can aggravate a few other medical conditions, so try to cut it out of your diet and see how everyone reacts. Maybe it will be better for your particular case to get calcium from other sources.

 

Edited to add - broth is a part of wonder food, just not for every case. I know quite a few people with various stomach problems (gastritis, erosion, reflux, ulcers) and when their condition worsens, they all turn to gentle broth-based dishes like soups and stews. I know I used to do that when my gastritis was bad. So for the "canary in the mine" people, broth-based dishes are a lifesaver.

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#3 of 65 Old 11-26-2011, 06:08 AM
 
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I think a lot of TF (like any other diet, vegan, low-carb, whatever) is hyped up.  That said, bone broth is pretty rich in vitamins and minerals, so I take the time to make and use it (but I'm not hardcore about using EVERY DAY).  I like a lot of what TF has to offer, but personally, I'm over treating any diet like it's the One True Path to healing and perfect nutrition.

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#4 of 65 Old 11-26-2011, 06:14 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post

I think a lot of TF (like any other diet, vegan, low-carb, whatever) is hyped up.  That said, bone broth is pretty rich in vitamins and minerals, so I take the time to make and use it (but I'm not hardcore about using EVERY DAY).  I like a lot of what TF has to offer, but personally, I'm over treating any diet like it's the One True Path to healing and perfect nutrition.



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#5 of 65 Old 11-26-2011, 06:19 AM
 
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Many people are addicted to True Path feeling - they love to find a True Path and follow it blindly. Of course it's nice, it simplifies things so much. Eat healthy, you won't get sick. Drink raw milk, you won't get caries. Got cancer? there's a diet. Got pre-e? there's a diet for that too. Got multiple sclerosis? that's because you didn't think enough happy thoughts. So easy! It drives me nuts.

 

Of course, when cruel Real Life snatches that noisy True Path toy out of their hands, there is much trauma and feeling of betrayal.

 

Then they find a new toy and it squeaks even louder! More excitement! smile.gif

 

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#6 of 65 Old 11-26-2011, 01:31 PM
 
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Well howdy Erin, nice to "see" you too!  I still have your blog on follow, I was just thinking of you the other day!

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#7 of 65 Old 11-30-2011, 05:06 PM
 
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It makes everything taste better, at least.  But more than that, i have noticed health benefits, better skin most notably.  


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#8 of 65 Old 11-30-2011, 05:09 PM
 
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But off hand, I think that there are generational consequences that we have yet to really explore.  What one generation eats affects the next several generations.  With the decline in breastfeeding earlier in the 20th century, plus the rise of processed foods, we may be seeing the consequences of that in forms of tooth decay and other medical/mental disorders for generations to come. 


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#9 of 65 Old 12-01-2011, 01:53 PM
 
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I can credit bone broth with assisting my cellulite to be almost gone.

Here's the deal though. Bones contain glutamate, and if because of modern food exposure, you are sensitive to MSG, the long cooking time needed to make bone broth can cause a reaction.
One way to deal with that is to cook the bones at a higher temp for a shorter time.


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#10 of 65 Old 12-01-2011, 01:54 PM
 
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Except that traditional foods are just that. traditional and verifiable historically.
Regardless, it takes 3 generations to make a complete mess, and its going to take that many to revers the mess.
 

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Originally Posted by CherryBomb View Post

I think a lot of TF (like any other diet, vegan, low-carb, whatever) is hyped up.  That said, bone broth is pretty rich in vitamins and minerals, so I take the time to make and use it (but I'm not hardcore about using EVERY DAY).  I like a lot of what TF has to offer, but personally, I'm over treating any diet like it's the One True Path to healing and perfect nutrition.



 


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#11 of 65 Old 12-01-2011, 02:02 PM
 
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PP have some insight, and decay can be complex.

 

Have you read the Cure for Tooth Decay?  That may be helpful.

 

Rubbing  Royal Blend (x factor butter oil and fermented clo)  into your teeth could also help.

 

Cell salts are tremendously helpful, particularly, calc flour. for enamal and calc. phos. for calcium.  There is a huge, and tremendously helpful Cell Salts thread around here!

 

A long time ago, I read that each tooth is related to an organ or gland, you could try googling this, and see if, for example, the tooth in question is related to your liver, you could work on that as well.

 

Green smoothies are absolutely fantastic.  My hubby and I have a head of parsley together, blended with a bit of fruit and water kefir.  The kiddos get a milder version of this, lol!

 

There have been rave reviews about spirulina and chlorella.  They have loads of minerals, and who can't use more greens these days?  I started using this in the summer, and have had quite a bit of energy, even in fall, when my energy usually drops significantly.  Spirulina is said to help with food allergies and help in the use of vit. d.  Perhaps this has been of value to me in the regard for energy. 

 

You could also try 4,000ius of vitamin D.

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#12 of 65 Old 12-01-2011, 02:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by DoubleDouble View Post

Many people are addicted to True Path feeling - they love to find a True Path and follow it blindly.

Yes, I think that's true, but I think a lot of people aren't necessarily following blindly. There is a lot of research, and convincing psuedo-research, that can be found to support just about any claim under the sun. (Thank you, internet!). So I think a lot of people do have some "back up" for their beliefs.

 

Of course it's nice, it simplifies things so much. Eat healthy, you won't get sick. Drink raw milk, you won't get caries. Got cancer? there's a diet. Got pre-e? there's a diet for that too. Got multiple sclerosis? that's because you didn't think enough happy thoughts. So easy! It drives me nuts.

Drives me nuts, too! Although sometimes I wish that I were not wired to be such a skeptic and to see everything in such complex terms.

 

Of course, when cruel Real Life snatches that noisy True Path toy out of their hands, there is much trauma and feeling of betrayal.

 

Then they find a new toy and it squeaks even louder! More excitement! smile.gif

 


 

 


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#13 of 65 Old 12-01-2011, 06:10 PM
 
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Except that traditional foods are just that. traditional and verifiable historically.

 



And?  I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said.

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#14 of 65 Old 12-01-2011, 11:26 PM
 
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Quote:
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And?  I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said.


Well, 'coz that's what humans have historically eaten throughout our development as people--our bodies have evolved/are designed to eat these foods, that's why they are "the path" if you will--coz they are " human" food, the foods that have allowed us to survive and thrive and become amazing civilizations, not just animsls gnashing bones or dying of heart disease in front of the teevee with a bucket of kfc.

I'm not saying everyone must do all these things to be healthy, but there arev erifiable accounts of traditional peoples in thriving health beacause of repeatable food practices which have spanned thousnds and thousnds of years, our physiology has adapted to tf and breaking from that so suddenly in the last 50yrs or so is really unwise in terms of what our bodies are equipped to handle. IMO

So I dont really know about myths per say, but definitely think there can be certain tf practices that dont resonate with you, your body, your health specifically whereas other tf practices might be perfect. For instance, I do not dig milk kefir. Love raw milk, but milk kefir doesnt much resonate with me and I have to force it down, I am starting to read my body as saying that maybe milk kefir isnt for me tho it could be wondrous for others, I will stick to raw milk and kombucha, kwim?

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#15 of 65 Old 12-02-2011, 07:51 AM
 
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Yes, Bone Broth is all that it is hyped up to be and much more.

 

One TF myth to me would be that eating grains is okay if they are properly prepared.  I don't think that has proven itself true in this day.  At the very least, wheat is out now, even if WAP himself found people eating it. The wheat seeds today are completely different than they were even then (fairly recently).  The explanation of what happened to wheat seeds in the 70s is in Wheat Belly.  No one should be touching it in any form at this point in history.

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#16 of 65 Old 12-03-2011, 01:33 PM
 
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Bone broth is very good but I still think one needs a balanced diet. I am wondering if there are other factors in the OPs diet that are causing the tooth decay.

Are you eating lots of grains? are you eating enough raw food? how about dental care?

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#17 of 65 Old 12-09-2011, 10:20 PM
 
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I am not an expert in any of this, but I wanted to say a couple of things, although I know this thread is old.

1. My husband is an archaeologist who specializes in ancient food. I get worried when people talk about food traditions being thousands of years old. I can respect WP's observational research, but broad claims about ancient people sprouting, soaking, etc. -- well, that is problematic, both in prehistorical periods and during periods for which we have ancient texts. The evidence is much more sparse than I think most people understand. But, of course, fermentation was more common... There was no refrigeration. Still, an awful lot of raw seeds were consumed in many cultures; phytic acid was a non- concern. Use of dairy varied a great deal around the world, and there were very healthy cultures without raw dairy... It is complicated stuff. And, yes, ancient wheat does not at all exist anymore, so we have Monsanto to thank for some of our issues.

2. My daughter is on a different diet for a malabsorption disorder called low FODMAP. That community has people who also do other diets, such as failsafe, SCD, and paleo. One thing I have heard about the NT diet and heavily promoted GAPS diet is that both are high in naturally occurring food chemicals, such as salicylates and amines. I don't know how that might impact dental health, but for people who have a low tolerance for such chemicals, this diet approach might not be the best (one would have to research to failsafe diet to get a handle on that). Bone broth is very troublesome for such sensitivities. And GAPS diet at this point would make my own daughter seriously ill, although there is some overlap with her diet. We are all different.

Thanks for listening.



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#18 of 65 Old 12-10-2011, 08:22 AM
 
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If you have read WAPs book, you would find that he addressed those very issues. Only a few cultures he studies drank milk for example.

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Originally Posted by sareva View Post

I am not an expert in any of this, but I wanted to say a couple of things, although I know this thread is old.
1. My husband is an archaeologist who specializes in ancient food. I get worried when people talk about food traditions being thousands of years old. I can respect WP's observational research, but broad claims about ancient people sprouting, soaking, etc. -- well, that is problematic, both in prehistorical periods and during periods for which we have ancient texts. The evidence is much more sparse than I think most people understand. But, of course, fermentation was more common... There was no refrigeration. Still, an awful lot of raw seeds were consumed in many cultures; phytic acid was a non- concern. Use of dairy varied a great deal around the world, and there were very healthy cultures without raw dairy... It is complicated stuff. And, yes, ancient wheat does not at all exist anymore, so we have Monsanto to thank for some of our issues.
2. My daughter is on a different diet for a malabsorption disorder called low FODMAP. That community has people who also do other diets, such as failsafe, SCD, and paleo. One thing I have heard about the NT diet and heavily promoted GAPS diet is that both are high in naturally occurring food chemicals, such as salicylates and amines. I don't know how that might impact dental health, but for people who have a low tolerance for such chemicals, this diet approach might not be the best (one would have to research to failsafe diet to get a handle on that). Bone broth is very troublesome for such sensitivities. And GAPS diet at this point would make my own daughter seriously ill, although there is some overlap with her diet. We are all different.
Thanks for listening.


 


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#19 of 65 Old 12-10-2011, 02:06 PM
 
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Right, I hear you. But the local NTers I know promote raw dairy very, very heavily... Just like everyone promotes bone broth. But if you are sensitive to amines, for example, bone broth will make you feel sick. GAPS won't heal that either. We use bone broth liberally and spent a year on raw dairy before realizing that the dairy piece does not work for us right now. Another example: very few people talk about fructose malabsorption, which is endemic to many populations, and which makes raw honey problematic. I am just offering examples... Not of myths, per say, but things that might not align well for folks when taking a single approach. Having been part of international networks of people with various malabsorption disorders, I have learned that folks should do what works best for their bodies... If NT works for you, that is wonderful, but it isn't for the OP, so I was trying to respond to that issue.

I did medical anthropology and maternal and child health; husband has been in the field for 23 years. Like I said, I respect WP's observations... We don't agree with everything in the NT approach for us right now, but neither one of us would slam someone for whom it is working. But if it is not, there are reasons why that might be the case. And delving into the traditional food cultures and practices is a lot more complicated that many realize... With all due respect, WP did not have the training to know or understand ancient or prehistorical food traditions, so when people talk about his work in terms of,"This has been done for thousands of years," that concerns me. I am not talking about what he wrote or said; I am talking more about how people interpret his work and talk about it in real life or in blogs. I hope that makes sense. It is hard when something isn't working for you to hear that humans have been eating that way for thousands of years... It makes you feel bad and wonder what's wrong with you. I have been there. It is unecessary b/c one cannot always extrapolate food practices from early in the last century to thousands of years ago... again, this is more about how people talk about WP or NT, but I was hoping it would help the OP to feel less bad or defensive about her situation.

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#20 of 65 Old 12-10-2011, 02:59 PM
 
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can you say more about fructose malabsorption please ?

when can i read about that ?

thanks.

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#21 of 65 Old 12-12-2011, 01:16 PM
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I think that it is a myth (or at least a common misunderstanding) that there is one TF diet.  There are numerous diets from numerous cultures, and it is difficult to make our modern diets perfectly resemble the exact diet from a culture that lived a long time ago and far, far away.  WAP took detailed notes, but he didn't make notes of exact amounts consumed of every little food and factor in all other lifestyle factors.  For some things, especially through pollution of waters and depletion of soils, the foods we would eat today are not the same as they were then.

 

Nor do we know that any of the individual diets studied by WAP are a panacea for all people of all cultures, just that they worked well in the cultures they were used.  It is clear that the people of individual cultures were using nutrient-rich diets based on the local foods available to them (and they tended to show an amazing ability to search out nutrient-rich foods in their own locales or make ways to travel or trade for them), but it is possible that they were also utilizing diets that worked well with their own genetics.  This can be most clearly seen in the fact that some cultures relied heavily on milk and some did not use dairy at all, and the cultures that relied on milk tended to have a gene that allowed them to digest lactose better than the people from cultures that did not rely on milk.

 

There were some telling similarities that we can take to heart such as the fact that every culture that used grains/beans soaked/sprouted/fermented them and usually served them with an acid, consumed meat with some sort of regularity, and prized certain organ meats and broths.

 

 

OP, reading your post, I can only wonder, have you had your Vitamin D checked recently?

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#22 of 65 Old 12-17-2011, 08:39 PM
 
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I also wanted to add *and I am not an expert JMO* that I do think it's a myth or maybe just portrayed with overkill on meat, not everyone needs large servings of meat or every meal and I do think trad cultures would've had penty of times the meat was sparing but use small amounts and every part of the animal til its gone.

Personally, I am surprised at how much meat I need to consume to feel well (p retty much daily) but I don't think that is true for everyone, and I think folks can thrive on TF semivegetarian or predominately small amounts of seafood (especially if raw sushi sashimi etc) or like macrobiotic to an extent. I think I've heard others post o nthis topic before, too-encountering a lot of TF principles first in macrobiotic diet which tends to include sparing meat. Chime in?

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#23 of 65 Old 12-19-2011, 02:55 PM
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I agree that it's a myth that everybody needs as much meat as is emphasized in some TF diets.  There's really a range, and honestly, in most regions, using less meat and more produce is more ecologically sound.  There were very few cultures (Eskimo's, Masai, etc) who ate a whole lot of meat.  Most of the cultures WAP studied used much smaller amounts of nutrient-dense animal products

 

However, there is a good argument for the paleo/primal diets being very healing.  In our culture, we have SO MANY starches that we have damaged our guts terribly, and there is good evidence that paleo/primal diets are very good for helping recover from the damage that has been done.  I don't think this would be as necessary if we didn't damage our guts so badly in the first place, though.

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#24 of 65 Old 12-19-2011, 07:11 PM
 
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Totally agree with that, JMJ! Thinking about going GAPS for my fam for just that reason, but for some reason terrified of going grain-free, it's been such a big part of our diets for so long (7 yrs veg before tf). So maybe when these two big bags of flour run out ;)


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#25 of 65 Old 12-20-2011, 07:07 AM
 
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 From what I understand, Weston A Price examined the diets of many different cultures and the diets really did vary. The isolated Swiss ate dairy, but not fish, The Japanese fish but not dairy. The Georgians also ate fermented dairy and grains. Only the Inuit (the PC name for "Eskimo") and the Massai ate primarily meat. What all these cultures had in common was they all ate a larger amounts of animal fat that what is nowadays considered acceptable for North American standards, they all ate some type of raw foods, some type of fermented food and they all ate only unrefined foods.

 

I also don’t consider myself an expert and am still learning. I have been considering the GAPS diet. I think it would be impossible to get my son (13) to do it completely. I also don’t relish the idea of having to make so much bone broth. I don’t mind the sell but my son and husband are sensitive and hate it.

 

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#26 of 65 Old 12-27-2011, 09:35 AM
 
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I was doing the GAPS diet, starting a few months ago, and coming from a TF/Paleo diet background of a few years.  

I think I am one of the people who is a little sensitive to the bone broth...I did have to do low FODMAPs for a week or so to help clear up some bloating-after-eating issues, and cutting out bone broth did seem to help, too.  Now I can tolerate pretty much any fruits and veggies; however I have found that fruits are best eaten first thing in the morning and NEVER after a meal.  I tried bone broth once a few days ago, but it just felt very heavy in my stomach.

After doing GAPS for a few months, I started getting intense cravings for raw animal foods, even though the actual idea sounded kind of unappitizing to me.  So now I am basically trying to integrate all the info I know about healing diets (Aajonus V's primal diet concepts, GAPS probiotics etc) and all of the things that WP's healthy people eating traditional diets did : raw animal foods and seafood, ferments, some veggies and some fruits.  I have been feeling much better lately!

I think its important for us to remember that we are coming from a much different place than say, a person who's grandmother and mother both ate healthy traditonal diets, so obviously they don't have much healing and "catching up" to do and probably have no issues eating properly prepared grains, raw dairy etc.  Compared to a person like me, who's grandmother and mother both ate a SAD, and who has multiple sclerosis---I still have a lot of healing to do I'm sure!!  Some people need different things in order to heal and unfortuently certian "healthy" foods won't be beneficial to them until they are healed.

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#27 of 65 Old 12-28-2011, 11:29 AM
 
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raksmama--the Masai have never traditionally relied on meat as their primary staple; it's milk. Warriors of the Masai subsist on a diet of meat, milk and blood, almost exclusively, for about 15 years out of their lives. But there are women Masai too, and children, and elderly;). There's a really interesting series on the subject of the Masai culture and diet over on the WAP website, by Chris Masterjohn. 

 

Regarding the OP's concern, it seems at least for your husband, and perhaps also for you that drinking broth puts your calcium intake too high, which will interfere with your magnesium status. I'm not sure what ratio of cal-mag there is in bone broth, but most likely there's more calcium than magnesium. Magnesium deficiency is a common concern, so you could simply add some magnesium rich foods to your diet and see if you tolerate the bone broth then. 

 

As for gout being common in the richer sauce eating population, it might be that they simply ate too much of it. Sauce often consists of very condensed stock, whereas when you drink a cup a day, it's likely much more watered down. So if you eat large quantities of sauce , most likely you're getting a very condensed source of purines. In a traditional diet of the 'people' I can only imagine stock wasn't as abundantly available as for the rich upper crust of more modern societies. 

 

I also have dental issues and when I used to drink stock every day, I noticed an improvement. I strongly believe in different people having vastly different nutritional needs. 

 

 

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#28 of 65 Old 12-29-2011, 01:47 PM
 
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Koalamom--Something else to consider is your consumption of grains, which I assume are whole. Your rampant dental decay could definitely be caused by eating improperly prepared grains. The assumption that traditional people ate their grains whole doesn't rest on much evidence at all, and in fact there's quite some evidence to the contrary. There are lots of studies done to measure the amount of phytic acid and other antinutrients eliminated by different methods of preparation. Soaking and sprouting don't do much for the phytic acid and in the case of sprouting, it actually activates the lectins in the bran and makes it even more harmful than just plain, untreated wheat! Check out this blog post for references to studies. 

 

Also, I really recommend getting Ramiel Nagel's book Cure Tooth Decay. There's some really great bits and pieces of information and references to check out further. He also brings up the question of whether old societies sifted their grains. 

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I personally found bone broth to NOT be a super food for me. I also consider myself former TF, eating a mostly whole foods flexitarian diet. Yeah, basically *gasp* mainstream nutrition.

All I know is I was healthy, ate TF for 2 years then got really sick with colitis caused by a parasitic/fungal infection. Supposedly something all the ferments, probiotics and bone broth was supposed to protect my gut from. I do understand health problems can originate with my genes and have more to do with what my Grandma ate then what I do, but still, I have too strong of an association of eating that way with being sick that it wouldn't be healthy for me now with all the dark feelings surrounding it. Anywho, I didn't come back to the TF forums to bash it or anything, I completely agree that there is no one diet for everyone and that many do great on a TF diet. I just ate SOOOO much bone broth trying to heal my gut and it did absolutely nothing (yes, I did paleo/low-carb/anti-candida/SCD/GAPS, you name it I tried it). Only medication worked. I have a huge aversion to the stuff now.


Happily married to DH for 6 years, in process to foster-adopt 3 children DD4, DS3 and DS2. We may be bringing half brother age 9 one day as well! We are not infertile, we just have decided that since there are precious children who need homes there is no need for us to have biological children.

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#30 of 65 Old 12-30-2011, 11:07 PM
 
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Also, my teeth continued to decay whilst off all grains and almost all sugars (even fruit) for several months, so we can't blame wheat there. Bad teeth just run in my family so I am not going to stress myself out trying to find a super food to cure them.


Happily married to DH for 6 years, in process to foster-adopt 3 children DD4, DS3 and DS2. We may be bringing half brother age 9 one day as well! We are not infertile, we just have decided that since there are precious children who need homes there is no need for us to have biological children.

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