Antinutrients, NT and Paleofoods - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 24 Old 08-14-2006, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
Plummeting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I was looking for information on antinutrients and came across this:

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/3/495S

Quote:
Additionally, some of the antinutrients, such as phytate and polyphenols, may play important beneficial roles in human diets by acting as anticarcinogens or by promoting health in other ways, such as decreasing the risk of heart disease or diabetes
and

Quote:
For example, Table 3lists some data reported by Morris and Ellis from a study with humans fed either low- or high-phytate muffin diets. As expected, the subjects fed the dephytinized muffins remained in positive Fe balance for the entire period that they were fed the dephytinized muffins. Interestingly, subjects fed the high-phytate diet during the first 5 d were in negative Fe balance (as expected), but by study d 10, these same subjects demonstrated positive Fe balances (which was not expected), suggesting that there must have been some adaptation to the high-phytate meals in these test subjects. Others have reported similar results from balance studies to those of Morris and Ellis
and

Quote:
They studied the effects of phytate on Zn homeostasis in four groups of children: two groups recovering from tuberculosis were fed high-phytate and low-phytate diets and two groups that were well but in the hospital for elective surgery and other treatments were fed high-phytate and low-phytate diets. As expected, in the children recovering from tuberculosis fed meals high in phytate, fractional Zn absorption, total Zn absorption and net Zn absorption were significantly reduced, while endogenous fecal Zn decreased compared with those fed low-phytate diets. However, unexpectedly, for the well children fed a high-phytate diet, more phytate had no effect on fractional Zn absorption, while total Zn absorption and net Zn absorption were higher, compared with well children fed the low-phytate diet. A major difference between the recovering children and the well children was the fact that the recovering children had received four potent antibiotics for over 60 d, whereas the well children received none. This suggests that the activity of microorganisms in the gut may have a large influence on the effects of phytate in meals on Zn bioavailability. Possibly, certain microorganisms in the gut may have active phytases that hydrolyze phytate making it inactive toward Zn absorption from the gut.
I'm very interested in the whole issue of antinutrients. For one thing, I would like to see evidence that soaking grains and legumes actually does cause a reduction in antinutrients, without also reducing nutritional value. Where might I find information like that - and I mean a real evaluation of soaked vs. unsoaked foods?

Has anyone ever looked into the "paleofood" diet? They recommend strictly avoiding all grains and legumes, due to antinutrient content. However, they allow all nuts, except peanuts obviously, with no special preparation requirements. Sally Fallon says nuts should be soaked. I read a lot about this diet a few years ago, so it's interesting to see the differences between it and the NT diet, when they both make mention of antinutrients, kwim?

Oh, I almost forgot that I also read this:

Quote:
Only about 50% of the phosphorus from phytate is available to humans because we lack enzymes (phytases) that liberate it from phytate (9). Yeasts possess phytases, so whole grains incorporated into leavened breads have more bioavailable phosphorus than whole grains incorporated into breakfast cereals or flat breads (2).
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...ls/phosphorus/

Now I know we don't need more phosphorous in our diet, but wouldn't this also mean that the yeast has broken down the phytates enough to make other nutrients more bioavailable? Wouldn't it mean that a little yeasted whole grain bread, even if it isn't sourdough, isn't so bad for you after all?

I've been mulling over these things for a while now, trying to reconcile the differences between NT and the paleolithic diet, as well as to find evidence to support all of the claims in NT. We eat almost all sprouted or soaked grains and nuts, but I'm really wondering if that's as necessary or beneficial as she claims it is. I need some help figuring this out.
Plummeting is offline  
#2 of 24 Old 08-14-2006, 10:27 PM
 
gardenmommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: blooming where I'm planted
Posts: 4,223
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I can't speak to the scientific data, although I find that very interesting. I would like to see some more on this, also. I can tell you that I experience far less gastrointestinal distress when I eat sourdough (homemade) breads than even sprouted grain breads. My Dd can digest it much easier, also. When she eats regular breads, her poops come out looking like wet bread. When she eats my sourdough, it comes out looking like, well, poop! Obviously, she isn't able to break down the grains very easily (she doesn't get many, mostly sourdough, for the above mentioned reason.).
gardenmommy is offline  
#3 of 24 Old 08-14-2006, 10:45 PM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 5,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Plummeting,

The books to read are by Reddy et al., one called Phytic Acids in Cereals and Legumes and one called Food Phytates. They review phytates literature in these books and I think you would find it very interesting. There are studies that examine phytate levels after different preparation techniques.

On that note there are studies of different bread types and that's where the sourdough recommendation comes in. If I can put my hand on something here soon, I'll post something on this. But flatbreads or sweetbreads that just use a baking soda don't cut it. I think I've seen studies of regular baker's yeast too.

On the nuts, Fallon recommends soaking with salt to reduce the enzyme inhibitors but isn't concerned about the phytates. This is something I intend to study on my next library visit. Nuts do have phytates but it may be unreasonable to break them down. It is difficult in legumes, particularly soy, but in legumes as a class compared to grains.

Researchers suggest that phytates are the biggest issue for people lacking iron and zinc in their diets which would tend to be vegetarians depending on their specific diets. Since most people on this board are omni I think that if we were prioritizing kitchen tasks, fermenting fruits and vegetables to add raw foods and more B vitamins to the diet would be more of a priority for us than worrying about phytates. That said, when I do cook grains here (rare), I do prepare them to reduce phytates.

Thanks for the article cites. I will read those when I have a chance.

Amanda

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#4 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 02:26 AM - Thread Starter
 
Plummeting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Gardenmommy, I have similar issues to you re: the gastrointestinal distress when I eat grains. Sprouted grains don't bother me, but if I eat grains that aren't soaked or sprouted, I am, well, uhh, gassy. My whole life I thought I was just a gassy person. Then I really reduced the amount of grains I was eating several years ago, and the problem got better. When I read NT and started following that (somewhat, not perfectly) I noticed it basically disappeared. Now I can really tell the difference when I eat grains that haven't been properly prepared. I just haven't been sure if my own problems really indicate that unprepared grains are a problem for everyone or just some people, kwim?

Thank you so much for that information, Amanda! I will definitely have to read those books, because I'm really interested in all of this. I haven't been able to find a whole lot of information, so I really appreciate you posting!
Plummeting is offline  
#5 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 10:56 AM
 
jessicaSAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lost in the Woods
Posts: 1,758
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I hadn't really put these two things together, but I too was much more gassy when I was vegetarian. I assumed it was all the raw food, but the truth is I probably eat just as many raw veggies now that I am eating a NT diet. What I don't eat is all the grains. I eat very few grains now, and only soaked, and hardly ever have intestinal discomfort. Of course I am also consuming many more cultured and fermented foods, which must factor in as well. I don't always soak my nuts, but they don't seem to bother me in the same way.
jessicaSAR is offline  
#6 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 12:30 PM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 5,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I will definitely have to read those books, because I'm really interested in all of this.
If you have a university library near you, that would be the place to check first. Otherwise, interlibrary loan might be able to get them.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#7 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 03:38 PM
 
gardenmommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: blooming where I'm planted
Posts: 4,223
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Plummeting, that is my problem, too, I just didn't know how to phrase it delicately! But, I figure that if I am that fragrant, my body is not breaking down the grains. I didn't figure this out until I did the maker's diet 40-day plan earlier this year, which basically eliminates all grains and sugars for 40 days, then allows only sprouted or soaked flours in small amounts (whew! THAT was a sentence!). Like you, I just figured I was a gassy person, esp. since I was so healthy, being veg. and all!

I don't have time to research everything I need to know, so part of my reasoning isn't scientific, it's simply how I feel best, kwim?

Please post your findings, Gale Force! I always enjoy reading what your latest findings are!
gardenmommy is offline  
#8 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 04:30 PM
 
yllek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: central coast CA
Posts: 481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I find these topics to be so fascinating. Thanks for posting those links, Plummeting. I'm also going to look into the books that you mentioned, Gale Force.

I'm new to NT, but have trying to find more research since I bought the book and started making changes in our diet. I sure hope the phytate thing is not all that SF makes it out to be. I'm going to have a very hard time giving up my whole-wheat pasta.

About fermentation of grains, you might want to take a look at this link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Basically, the researchers observed that gluten proteins are broken down during the process of sourdough fermentation.

On the topic of antinutrients, I've wondered why SF goes through all the trouble of getting rid of phytates, but doesn't seem to try to avoid oxalates, which have a similar effect and are found in many leafy green veggies. Does anyone have any insight on this?

And also, are any NTers concerned about the link between stomach cancer and the frequent consumption of fermented veggies/fish? I'm Korean, and I grew up with kimchi at Every.Single.Meal. My parents and I have radically reduced our consumption of pickled foods when several of my parents' friends were diagnosed with stomach cancer.

Kelly
yllek is offline  
#9 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 04:57 PM
 
kallyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: central PA
Posts: 1,511
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by yllek
And also, are any NTers concerned about the link between stomach cancer and the frequent consumption of fermented veggies/fish? I'm Korean, and I grew up with kimchi at Every.Single.Meal. My parents and I have radically reduced our consumption of pickled foods when several of my parents' friends were diagnosed with stomach cancer.
From nutritional reading that I've done, I seem to remember that there is a higher incidence of stomach cancer in Asian populations because of all the starch (rice) that's consumed. I wouldn't worry about the kimchi!

Me love.gif, DH guitar.gif, and DD baby.gif9/27/10!
kallyn is offline  
#10 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 05:25 PM
 
jessicaSAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Lost in the Woods
Posts: 1,758
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Is there any evidence suggesting that the stomach cancer is related to fermented veggies? If so, does that also apply to other cultures that eat alot? My Ukranian relatives eat sauerkraut, pickled beets and kvass everyday. Is there also a higher incidence of stomach cancer in those populations?
jessicaSAR is offline  
#11 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 06:45 PM
 
CluckyInAZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: arizona
Posts: 436
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
kallyn,
I think that the rice causing stomach cancer issue wasn't about starch, but about talc put into rice to keep the grains from sticking together.

When I go to asian markets most of the "pickles" contain all sorts of preservatives, artificial sweetners, food coloring and other such additives. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that these things contributed to stomach cancer. That being said, I haven't seen any additives in the kim chi that I buy, but all the ingredients might not have been listed on the english section of the ingredients. That happens with a lot of products that I see in asian markets.
CluckyInAZ is offline  
#12 of 24 Old 08-15-2006, 11:38 PM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 5,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by yllek
On the topic of antinutrients, I've wondered why SF goes through all the trouble of getting rid of phytates, but doesn't seem to try to avoid oxalates, which have a similar effect and are found in many leafy green veggies. Does anyone have any insight on this?
I don't know why it wasn't included, but if anyone is interested in how to reduce oxalates, the best method is boiling and then tossing the water. Unlike phytates which are neutralized by soaking, oxalates just fall off of the produce and into the water. One problem with oxalates is that the levels in the food vary a lot with harvest time and variety so every list of high oxalate food is different. Spinach and beets are big ones and also commonly eaten raw, in all of their oxalate glory.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#13 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 03:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
Plummeting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gale Force
I don't know why it wasn't included, but if anyone is interested in how to reduce oxalates, the best method is boiling and then tossing the water.
How long would you have to boil? For spinach, would it be just until wilted, or until completely soggy?
Plummeting is offline  
#14 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 03:52 AM
 
yllek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: central coast CA
Posts: 481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessicaSAR
Is there any evidence suggesting that the stomach cancer is related to fermented veggies? If so, does that also apply to other cultures that eat alot? My Ukranian relatives eat sauerkraut, pickled beets and kvass everyday. Is there also a higher incidence of stomach cancer in those populations?
From WHO http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/...n/index15.html

Quote:
Stomach cancer. Until about 20 years ago stomach cancer was the most common cancer in the world, but mortality rates have been falling in all industrialized countries (14) and stomach cancer is currently much more common in Asia than in North America or Europe (11). Infection with the bacterium Helicobacter pylori is an established risk factor, but not a sufficient cause, for the development of stomach cancer (15). Diet is thought to be important in the etiology of this disease; substantial evidence suggests that risk is increased by high intakes of some traditionally preserved salted foods, especially meats and pickles, and with salt per se, and that risk is decreased by high intakes of fruits and vegetables (16), perhaps because of their vitamin C content. Further prospective data are needed, in particular to examine whether some of the dietary associations may be partly confounded by Helicobacter pylori infection and whether dietary factors may modify the association of Helicobacter pylori with risk.
also http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/.../2003/pr27/en/
Quote:
Stomach cancer is among the most common malignancies worldwide, with some 870,000 cases every year, and 650,000 deaths. About 60 per cent of cases occur in developing countries, with the highest incidence rates coming in Eastern Asia, the Andean regions of South America and Eastern Europe. The good news is that stomach cancer is declining world-wide, in some regions almost dramatically. In Switzerland and neighbouring European countries, the mortality fell by 60 per cent within one generation. If this trend continues, stomach cancer may in some world regions become a rare disease during the next 30 years. The main reason for this welcome development is the invention of the refrigerator, allowing fish and meat preservation without salting. The drop in incidence and mortality rates is therefore particularly impressive in Nordic countries in which fish consumption is traditionally high, e.g. Iceland. In populations that still prefer salty food, e.g. Portugal and Brazil (salted cod, bacalao), Japan and Korea (salted pickles and salad), stomach cancer rates are still high but have also started to decline significantly. An additional factor contributing to this trend is the availability in many countries of fresh fruit and vegetables throughout the year.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for probiotic/fermented foods, but I think I'll be consuming them in moderation and opting for more fresh or raw veggies. Kimchi (all the crazy kinds of kimchi - not just cabbage) is such a part of my make-up that I think I'll be getting puh-lenty of fermented veggies anyway.

Kelly
yllek is offline  
#15 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 09:42 AM
 
caedmyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I wonder if the populations that they studied were using sea salt or refined salt...
caedmyn is offline  
#16 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 11:28 AM
 
yllek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: central coast CA
Posts: 481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gale Force
I don't know why it wasn't included, but if anyone is interested in how to reduce oxalates, the best method is boiling and then tossing the water. Unlike phytates which are neutralized by soaking, oxalates just fall off of the produce and into the water. One problem with oxalates is that the levels in the food vary a lot with harvest time and variety so every list of high oxalate food is different. Spinach and beets are big ones and also commonly eaten raw, in all of their oxalate glory.
Thanks for that info! Some more info on oxalates, with further links if anyone wants to read more.
http://www.greenhands.com/greenhands...rry-teeth.html
Scroll down to see her numerous references.

I've heard about the boiling, but I always considered it a catch-22. Yeah, you get rid of the oxalates, but you are also getting rid of a lot of vitamins in the cooking water too. :

One thing I can't seem to find is how much phytates and oxalates affect the bioavailability of nutrients. I mean, if we have a nutrient-rich diet with a wide variety of foods, maybe we can forego the all the special prep that our ancestors required? (Or maybe this is just my inner rationale so I don't have to give up whole-wheat pasta).

Kelly
yllek is offline  
#17 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 11:30 AM
 
yllek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: central coast CA
Posts: 481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by caedmyn
I wonder if the populations that they studied were using sea salt or refined salt...
Yeah... My mom always made her own kimchi (vats and vats of several different kinds every autumn), but I think we only had Morton's while I was growing up.

Kelly
yllek is offline  
#18 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 12:09 PM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 5,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by yllek
One thing I can't seem to find is how much phytates and oxalates affect the bioavailability of nutrients. I mean, if we have a nutrient-rich diet with a wide variety of foods, maybe we can forego the all the special prep that our ancestors required? (Or maybe this is just my inner rationale so I don't have to give up whole-wheat pasta).
This is why I think fermenting vegetables and fruits are more important for omnis. If we are eating broth and muscle meat, both with a lot of minerals, then it's not that big of a deal. If our diets or bodies are otherwise low in iron or zinc, that would be another matter. That said, I still prepare the few grains we eat to reduce their phytate content. And we don't plant spinach for salad greens.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#19 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 12:21 PM
 
AnnC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Rainy Western Washington
Posts: 268
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by yllek
From WHO http://www.who.int/nutrition/topics/...n/index15.html



also http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/.../2003/pr27/en/


Don't get me wrong. I'm all for probiotic/fermented foods, but I think I'll be consuming them in moderation and opting for more fresh or raw veggies. Kimchi (all the crazy kinds of kimchi - not just cabbage) is such a part of my make-up that I think I'll be getting puh-lenty of fermented veggies anyway.
I had always read that stomach cancer in Asia was due to drinking tea without milk, because of the tannins, and that the British don't have high rates of stomach cancer because they drink milk in their tea, which binds the tannins.
I think it's too vague to guess at the cause of stomach cancer, since no one knows exactly what causes it, and there are way too many variables that could be the cause. Our American dietary advice is very anti-salt, so they are quick to jump on that as a cause, but the tea theory is just as valid or invalid.

Ann
AnnC is offline  
#20 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 12:56 PM
 
Gale Force's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Nestled in the Sierras
Posts: 5,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I forgot to mention that phytates and oxalates also irritate the kidneys, so there is reason to reduce them even aside from the mineral issue.

Amanda Rose, author, Rebuild From Depression: A Nutrient Guide. Don't miss this opportunity to build a business telling friends about probiotic foods and grass fed meats: Beyond Organic Review.

Gale Force is offline  
#21 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 07:47 PM
 
CluckyInAZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: arizona
Posts: 436
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
there is an article on the weston price website about the traditional Korean diet.

http://www.westonaprice.org/traditio...rean_beef.html

Quote:
According to National Cancer Institute data, Korean women have one of the lowest cancer rates in the world (64.9), slightly lower than that of Japan (78.1) and China (88.6), and considerably lower than that of the United States (109.7). For Korean men, the cancer rate falls in the lower middle range (150.3), almost equal to that of Japan and China and slightly lower than that of the United States (150.3) Rates for colon and rectal cancer for beef-eating Koreans are very low, as are rates for lung cancer, breast cancer and cancers of the reproductive organs. But Koreans have the highest rate of stomach cancer in the world. Irritants added to foods – such as talc in white rice – may account in part for high rates of stomach cancer, as well as the prevalence of smoking and consumption of alcoholic beverages, especially among Korean males. Koreans have a relatively high rate of liver disease, also possibly due to consumption of alcoholic beverages without the protective benefits of adequate saturated fat in the diet. The rate of ischemic heart disease is relatively low, about 21 per 100,000, compared to 66.8 in the United States. Average life span in Korea is 70 for men and 77.7 for women.
with one of the lowest total cancer rates in the world, I really wouldn't worry about the kimchi.
CluckyInAZ is offline  
#22 of 24 Old 08-16-2006, 11:51 PM
 
provocativa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I think the bias towards agribusiness negates the first link the op sites. The aim of that type of research is to be used in commercial farm feeding- the theory being if you give them phytase, you can feed pigs, cattle, and chickens a high grain diet they weren't normally meant to digest.
Also, check out this analysis of phytates in sourdough made with baker's yeast versus wild and other sourdough starters. http://www.emro.who.int/Publications...1_2/effect.htm
For me, I don't seem too have trouble digesting grains, but I think we should eat less of them than most Americans do. We still eat whole grain pasta once a week or so when I fail my dinner planning (sigh). I do love oxalate rich foods too much, and arthritis runs in my family, and I live in a kidney stone 'belt'- an area where folks get lots of kidney stones- the docs think it's the water (I say, water and diet). So calcifications are a concern here. I boil my beets a long time, but still love my chocolate, almonds and spinach, all high oxalate food!
Sometimes, it's important to step back from scientific research that seems contradictory and ask, as always: who profits, who loses, who decides.
provocativa is offline  
#23 of 24 Old 08-17-2006, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
Plummeting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by provocativa
I think the bias towards agribusiness negates the first link the op sites. The aim of that type of research is to be used in commercial farm feeding- the theory being if you give them phytase, you can feed pigs, cattle, and chickens a high grain diet they weren't normally meant to digest.
Believe me, I always examine the motives behind any study, article or research. It's how I live my life - I never take anything at face value. However, I think it's dangerous to dismiss something for no other reason than you believe the organization responsible for it has biases. If the information is good, it doesn't matter where it comes from, IMO. All organizations have biases. Every last one of them. I can't dismiss all information, because none of it is reliable since everyone is biased. I have to sift through the information and determine what is supported by other information and what should be more closely examined.

This link doesn't even mention feeding animals. That's not what it is about at all. It's about how to get foods rich in micronutrients to the poor of the world. I would find it peculiar for them to use humans as the "guinea pigs" of research into how to feed animals. If this was an attempt to convince us that phytates are good for animals, they would've used animal models. It specifically discusses the problems with antinutrients, so this isn't an attempt to prove that feeding cattle, pigs and chickens (which aren't even mentioned) a high grain diet is a good option. It's only about whether breeding or genetically modifying antinutrients out of foods is a good choice. And I think it's worth considering that antinutrients may have beneficial effects to go right along with their detrimental effects.
Plummeting is offline  
#24 of 24 Old 08-17-2006, 04:20 PM
 
provocativa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,794
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I'm sorry, but much of the research I've read about supplementing with phytases is geared towards agribusiness, and it seemed on first glance that this reseach has such implications, and it does. Research always has greater application than its intent, as well it should. But you're right, it's worse, because it advocates genetically modified food for poor people, rather than just their livestock. It is my belief that the 'U. S. Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service, U. S. Plant, Soil and Nutrition Laboratory, Ithaca, NY 14853' is in fact biased to an extent that yes, I am going to find their claims to be spurious. They are not generally trustworthy, and generally trustworthy phDs do not get funding from them. I don't think genetically modified food is a good idea, at all.
provocativa is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off