chelation,remineralization(wasDd's Teeth) - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 129 Old 02-08-2007, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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ARE straightening! I don't know if anyone remembers I posted ages back concerned about how crooked my 3yo dd's teeth came in (she was 9mo when I discovered NT), wondering if I could do anything about it? Well, we haven't been doing anything special, just trying to prepare nutrient-dense foods as much as possible, and her upper teeth are now straight and the lower ones are better! I just wish I had before and after pics. Of course, it might not be dietary but based on her cousins' mouths, she seems to be doing better than they did at her age (more marked improvement). Wish me luck keeping it up!
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#2 of 129 Old 02-08-2007, 03:44 PM
 
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That is so awesome!!! Keep us updated....

I think I am reaping the consequences of my fat free vegan diet now...I can see another cavity on the outside of a tooth (I just had 4 filled 2 mos ago!)How long does that take to correct?! I trasitioned to NT about 9 mos ago.

Jen

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#3 of 129 Old 02-08-2007, 04:03 PM
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Congrats, HerthElde! That's great.

Jen, IMO not all dental issues can be totally fixed by diet. NT and WAPF tend to give that impression, that a "perfect" diet will result in perfect teeth, but I think in this society we all have too many confounding factors and it's not anywhere near that straightforward. Heredity, personal history and other issues aren't always so easily erased, much to my dismay.

There is no secret ingredient.
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#4 of 129 Old 02-08-2007, 04:52 PM
 
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AJP-I definately hoping that traditional foods will improve things as before when I was eating no fat, I don' think I was absorbing all those minerals. My dad has horrible teeth in term of cavities and his dad was a dentist! He said his teeth are "soft" and my dentist said I have very deep pits in mine. I just hate feeling guilty and confused when I take good care of them and I still have issues. I guess WAPF can give the impression of a cure all. I wish we could fix it all with diet too!

Jen

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#5 of 129 Old 02-10-2007, 03:41 PM
 
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I do think that tooth decay can be fixed by diet, and that was my experience with my family's teeth (esp. DD, who had rampant decay across her top 4 teeth).

BUT!! We did not follow a strict NT/WAPF diet. Followed the basic principles, but made some modifications/emphases:
-VERY HIGH emphasis on vegetables instead of placing the emphasis on fats and animal foods. Yes, they are important, but the veggies IMO were key.
-Some raw veggies at every meal, a salad every day. For the wee ones, a blended salad (like a cold veggie soup, a salad-in-a-blender). Actually, a blended salad is great for adults too.
-Full spectrum mineral supplement including trace (we used Country Life Total Mins). NOT vitamin supplement, only minerals.
-Lots and lots of bone broths
-CLO (we didn't do x-factor butter oil, as I am still not convinced that it's worth the price. I've posted at length about my thoughts on that before somewhere....if I remember where I'll post the link).
-Organ meats
-Low fruit and grain intake. Mostly veggies, and then animal foods/fats.
-And then of course the general WAPF recommendations, soaked grains and healthy fats, etc etc. Which you already know if you are hanging out in this forum.

Let me repeat: fresh veggies are a must. IMO you can't properly remineralize without heavy intake of them. If you need help in this arena, the Garden of Eating Diet is a great book to read. You need a lot of free minerals in your saliva in order to replenish your enamel. It's not just using CLO/XFBO. You need everything together, there is no magic bullet to cure it all.

If you are worried about specific mineral deficiencies and heavy metal toxicities impacting your nutrient intake, then get a hair test done. Direct Labs is the one I used (Hair Elements, not the Hair Toxic Element Exposure):
http://www.directlabs.com/testtypes.php#hair
You can determine mercury toxicity using these counting rules (it doesn't always show up as high levels in hair, but instead skews your mineral transport):
http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/HOW_TO_hair_test.html

And also, while you are trying to remineralize, good dental hygiene is very helpful. This site is great, called Dental Self-Sufficiency:
http://mizar5.com/
I don't believe in their theory of cavities/gum disease being a communicable disease, but they have very good info on tooth irrigation. You need to flush out those pockets if you have loose gums so that your gums can reattach.

HTH! Feel free to pm me with any questions as I don't get online as much lately.
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#6 of 129 Old 02-10-2007, 03:54 PM
 
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Thank you so much for all that info!!!!

I just got the Garden of Eating and Wild Fermentation as a belated Christmas gift so I am just getting into them. I also take Total Mins (w/iron) and no multi on purpose. I am glad there is someone else who tinks that is a good idea. I am also grain free.

I would love to read your thoughts on butter oil. I will look for them too. I have been working on my specific mineral defiencies for 6 months with great results. I am trying to get through Lyme disease treatment and then test and consider a mercury chelation/detox. I was worried about doing one because I was reading that moms on this board were getting really depressed during chelation and I just don't know if I can handle that again being a PPP/PPD survivor.

Thanks again Toraji,
Jen

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#7 of 129 Old 02-10-2007, 04:26 PM
 
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Here's an interesting article about butter oil, reprinted from here:

Why I'm In Awe of Butter Oil
by Emmalyn McAllister

I've had a personal revelation, and I'd like to share it with you.

I was eagerly reading my copy of Eat Fat Lose Fat, the new book by Sally Fallon and Dr. Mary Enig, when a paragraph on page 77 stopped me in my tracks. It said,

Dr. Price explained that vitamins A and D are catalysts to mineral absorption and protein utilization. Without them, you cannot absorb minerals, no matter how abundant they may be in your food. In addition, Price discovered another fat-soluble nutrient, a potent catalyst for mineral absorption that he labeled Activator X. It was present in all the diets he studied.

"Wait a MINUTE!!!!" I thought. "Mineral imbalances and deficiencies can lead to all KINDS of health problems!!!! Did Dr. Price mean that if I wasn't getting enough vitamin A and D, I couldn't absorb MINERALS ????????" I read the paragraph again. That was certainly what it had said, hadn't it? It was like someone had hit me upside the head!

I had a very, very personal reason for being keenly interested in this paragraph: I had been pumping large quantities of vitamin and mineral supplements into myself for several years, trying to reverse my arthritis and osteoporosis, and yet, I hadn't seen any reversal in either of my conditions. In fact, I hadn't even been able to stop their progress. So now I wondered, "Had my diet been deficient in some key factors that would have made my mineral supplements work?"

"But how could that have been the case?" I mused. "I had been eating what I thought was a good diet -- certainly one far healthier than most people I knew, anyway -- so how could my diet have been deficient in vitamins A and/or D, especially if these vitamins were so critical to health? And what was this potent super-catalyst for mineral absorption that Dr. Price had discovered in every primitive diet he had studied? Was it some kind of secret key to the superior health and longevity of those 'primitive' societies?"

I put down Eat Fat Lose Fat and picked up my copy of the Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements, by Michael T. Murray, N.D. I "Was I experiencing any symptoms of a diet deficient in vitamins A and D;" I wondered. "and if I was, where had my 'healthy diet' failed me?" Here is what I found:

Vitamin A was the first recognized fat-soluble vitamin. Two groups of researchers found that young animals fed a diet deficient in natural fats became very unhealthy, as evidenced by their inability to grow and their poor immune function. These researchers also noted that the animals' eyes became severely inflamed and infected on the restricted diet -- conditions quickly relieved by the addition of butterfat or cod liver oil to the diet. Once known as the 'anti-infective vitamin',vitamin A recently regained recognition as a major determinant of immune status. Carotenes, some of which can be converted to vitamin A, are also gaining a great deal of attention as immune system enhancers.

Vitamin A deficient individuals are more susceptible to infectious diseases and have higher mortality rates.Infectious conditions associated with vitamin A deficiency include the measles, chicken pox, respiratory syncytial virus, AIDS, and pneumonia. Then during the course of the ensuing infections, the already low vitamin A stores are seriously depleted.

Prolonged vitamin A deficiency results in the characteristic signs...a buildup of cellular debris in the hair follicles, giving the skin a goose-bump appearance, which occurs most often at the back of the upper arm; night blindness, and increased rate of infection. As the condition worsens, it also affects the mucous membranes of the respiratory tract, gastrointestinal tract, and genito-urinary tract. Even a mild vitamin A deficiency is associated with a significant increase in mortality.

I read this paragraph and realized that I had been experiencing some of these symptoms for a long time.

So if I was deficient, where had my possible deficiency come from?

Vitamin A deficiency may be because of inadequate dietary intake...or some secondary factor that interferes with the absorption, storage or transport of vitamin A. A variety of factors influence the absorption efficacy of vitamin A and carotene. A deficiency of zinc, vitamin C, protein, or thyroid hormone impairs of conversion of pro-vitamin A carotenes to vitamin A. Vitamin E and zinc are particularly important to the proper function of vitamin A.

Things were starting to get complicated. I decided to explore the possibility of inadequate dietary intake first:

The most concentrated sources of preformed vitamin A are liver, kidney, butter, whole milk, and fortified low-fat and skim milk, while the leading sources of provitamin A carotenes are dark green leafy vegetables (collards and spinach) and yellow-orange vegetables (carrots, sweet potatoes, yams, and squash).

I looked the list over carefully. I had given up liver years ago because I had read that liver was the main detoxifying organ and consequently full of toxins. Kidney? You've got to be kidding! Butter, whole milk and fortified low-fat and skim milk? Well, no, I used to get all mucousy when I used them, so I stopped using them......ah, years ago. But I HAD been eating my veggies, though...uh, but not much of the ones in the list, and I had been diagnosed with hypothyroidism, which according to Dr. Murray might have impaired the conversion of beta-carotenes.

"OK, so much for vitamin A", I thought. "At least I have access to whole raw milk and butter now, and I'm actually enjoying liver and onions again, now that it comes from healthy, pasture-based beef. But," I wondered, "would including those in my diet at this point be enough to turn my symptoms around? Good question. Wish I had a good answer."

I turned to Chapter 4 in Dr. Murray's book: Vitamin D. Was I deficient in that too?

Since our bodies can produce vitamin D by the action of sunlight on the skin, many experts consider it more of a hormone than a vitamin. Nonetheless, by current definition vitamin D is both. Vitamin D is best known for its ability to stimulate the absorption of calcium. Vitamin D also exerts many anticancer properties, especially against breast and colon cancer.

Vitamin D deficiency results in rickets in children and osteomalacia in adults. Rickets, characterized by an inability to calcify the bone matrix, results in softening of the skull bones, bowing of the legs, spinal curvature, and increased joint size.Vitamin D deficiency is now most often seen in elderly people who do not get any sunlight. The consequences are lack of bone strength and density, and joint pain.

The symptoms listed in the last sentence sounded very familiar. But unlike, vitamin A, the only cause of deficiency other than inadequate dietary intake that Dr. Murray mentioned was the interaction with certain prescription drugs, none of which I have ever taken. So there it was -- it was likely that my 'good diet' had let me down.

What should I have been eating that I hadn't been? I turned to Dr. Murray for the answer:

Good natural sources of vitamin D are cod liver oil, cold-water fish (mackerel, salmon, herring, etcetera), butter, and egg yolks. Vegetables are low in vitamin D; the best sources are dark green leafy vegetables.

Not a very long list. I HAD been taking about a teaspoon a day of flavored cod liver oil for the last several months. I HAD been eating a lot of eggs from the grocery store, but now I was wondering about their nutritional content. I thought I certainly could load my diet with cold-water fish, butter and good, farm fresh eggs from run-around chickens. But whether doing these things would be enough to put the calcium back into my bones and dissolve the calcium deposits from my joints, I didn't know.

So I considered that maybe if I made an effort to eat the foods that contained that "potent catalyst for mineral absorption" that Dr. Price had discovered, that that might make a big difference. In fact, maybe I had been eating those foods all along and hadn't even known that I was!!! In which foods did Dr. Price find this catalyst? I picked up my copy of Eat Fat Lose Fat again.

Dr. Price called the catalyst he discovered, "Activator X", since it activated mineral absorption. (Later the scientific community called it "the Price Factor", after its discoverer.)

Dr. Price noted that all the primitive diets he studied in depth contained large quantities of Activator X, but that only a few sources contained any meaningful quantity of it. All of them were of animal origin:

Oily fish, like salmon, sardines, herring, mackerel and anchovies;

Fish eggs; fish liver oils; shellfish;

Organ meats of ruminant animals raised outdoors and on pasture: liver, kidneys, brains, hearts etc. of reindeer, water buffalo, deer, camels, sheep, goats, cows, etc;

The fat of poultry and pigs raised outside and on pasture;

Certain insects;

The blubber of sea animals;

Egg yolks; and the

Butterfat from the milk of cows when -- and only when -- they were eating rapidly-growing green grass, which in most places meant only in the spring and fall of the year.

Furthermore, Dr. Price determined that these sources proved to have a very wide range in their content of Activator X, as well as in their content of vitamins A and D, depending upon the degree of nutrition that was available in the food that these animals were eating, which varied greatly from time to time. Taking all the factors into consideration, Dr. Price concluded that for most Americans the most reliable source -- as well as the most highly-concentrated source of Activator X -- was the deep yellow butterfat of cows eating rapidly-growing green grass.

Dr. Price developed a way to further concentrate Activator X and vitamins A and D by putting the butterfat through a low-temperature centrifuge process. He called the finished product, "Activator X butter oil". Inherent in this oil is also the Wulzen Factor, (the anti-stiffness factor) which protects against degenerative arthritis, cataracts, hardening of the arteries, and the calcification of the pineal gland.

Well, I was intrigued. I went to my bookcase and pulled out my copy of Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Dr. Price. It certainly seemed that Activator X and Vitamins A and D had been key factors in the diets of the legendarily healthy primitives Dr. Price had studied. But what I wanted to know was whether Dr. Price had ever used his Activator X butter oil to treat anyone with osteoporosis or arthritis, and if he had, what had been the results?

Dr. Price devoted the whole of Chapter 22 to the discussion of his use of Activator X butter oil to restore health to those who were unhealthy. In his own words:

Case One: A boy 4 years of age brought to me with a fracture. He was in a cast. Rampant tooth decay was present. The diet had consisted of white bread and skimmed milk, which had been the source of his nutrition for an extended period owing to the poverty of the family at the time of the depression. He had been suffering from convulsions, which had been increasing in severity over a period of eight months. His leg had been broken when he had fallen to the floor in one of his convulsions three months before receiving the reinforced diet. The minister who brought him to me had been called to the home to baptize the boy for burial because he was considered so near death.

The only treatment given was a change in diet from skimmed milk and white bread to whole milk and gruel made of freshly ground whole wheat. Over this gruel was poured about a desert spoonful of butter oil from a sample of butter that had been produced when the cows were eating rapidly growing green wheat. After his first meal, the boy slept his first night without a convulsion. He was fed five times the next day on the same diet, and had no convulsions. Recovery was very rapid.

Dr. Price goes on to note that after only one month, the fracture was healed, and without any treatment on his teeth, his cavities were controlled. He grew to be an athletic young man, active in several sports, particularly baseball.

Case Two: The patient, a girl aged 14, had lost all four of the first permanent molars and the diagnosis made by her local dentist indicated the necessity of removing all of the erupted teeth and the construction of two artificial dentures. Studies indicated that she had forty-two open cavities in twenty-four teeth in addition to fillings. The patient was placed on a reinforced diet including approximately one-half teaspoon of a mixture of high vitamin A and high-activator X butter oil mixed with equal parts of a very high-vitamin natural cod-liver oil taken in capsules three times a day. She was on this regimen for about seven months, with the result that there was very little evidence of extension of the caries, notwithstanding that no fillings were placed, with the exception of two or three temporary ones.

This girl, at 15, has all her teeth, with the exception of the four first permanent molars, extracted earlier in life. The teeth have been well restored with good masticating surfaces and the appearance of the patient is excellent. She is so enthusiastic that she wishes to give lectures on nutrition to aid others with their dental problems.

Case Three: During the severe industrial depression, rampant caries developed in a great number of cases in the families of mill workers...twenty-seven mission children were selected on the basis of rampant dental caries. Since these children were all from poor homes, many of the families being on relief, one extra good meal a day at midday was provided for the entire group at the mission. This was preceded by administration to each child of one teaspoonful of a mixture containing a high vitamin butter oil. This butter was selected on the basis of its high content of activator X. It was mixed with equal parts of a high-vitamin, natural cod liver oil. The clinical effect was apparent complete control of dental caries for the entire group, as shown in the x-ray films. In many of these cases, the open cavities were left without fillings; and, in all such cases, the exposed dentin took on a hard glassy finish. There were many other evidences of betterment.

One of the boys, who was so weak at the beginning of the test that it was considered questionable whether it was safe for him to walk the two blocks from his home to the mission for the one reinforced meal a day, in six weeks was able to play basketball. He was dashing about as a star player, and there was no evidence of undue fatigue on his part in this strenuous game.

During the experiment, the home meals were not changed, nor was the home care of the teeth. It is important to note that the home diet which had been responsible for the tooth decay, was exceedingly low in body-building and repair material and high in sweets and refined starches. It usually consisted of a highly-sweetened coffee and white bread, vegetable fat, pancakes made of a white flour and eaten with syrup, and doughnuts fried in vegetable fat.

It is important to note with regard to the effect of the special nutritional program on this group of mission children that two different teachers came to me to inquire as to what had been done to make a particular child change from one of the poorest in the class in capacity to learn to one of the best.

I was in awe. I put down the book. So there it was: Activator X butter oil and high-vitamin cod liver oil.

I believed I had found my answer, for I reasoned that if the combination of Activator X butter oil and high-vitamin cod liver oil could work such miracles as those I had read about, surely it could help me too.

Copyright 2005 Emmalyn F. McAllister. All rights reserved.
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#8 of 129 Old 02-10-2007, 05:17 PM
 
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Herthelde - That is an awesome testament to the healing power of nutrient dense foods! Please post this on the Healing cavities with nutritions that Jane started in the dental forum.

Jen - Heavy metals can displace minerals regardless of how well you eat. I agree with Toraji about the importance of checking your status esp. if you have amalgam fillings. If you're interesed come over to chelating mamas in the dental forum.

Toraji - I've got to respectfully disagree with one thing and I hope you can provide a good argument to refute me. I do believe veggies are beneficial and an important part of a nutrient dense diet, but not essential for proper nutrition as seen in the remote Swiss villagers. WP documented their diet as consisiting primarily of fermented rye bread, raw dairy products, and meat eaten once per week (p. 26 N&PD).
"A limited amount of garden stuff is grown, chiefly green foods for summer use." N&PD p 26
Also, the mission school studies (p 428-430 N&PD) that WP performed himself only gave the children their lunch meal with nutrient dense foods. These foods consisted of CLO/BO, raw milk, orange or tomato juice, hearty meat (or organs/fish) and veg stew, cooked fruit, and freshly made wheat rolls. With regards to the dental changes in the children after this enriched diet "a progressive filling in of the pulp chamers can be noted from a deposition of secondary dentin, making a roof over the pulp and thereby providing a protection which enabled the pulp to remain vital and useful for and extended period.." P 430 N&PD.
No fresh vegetables were used other than those cooked in the stew or cooked fruit.
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#9 of 129 Old 02-10-2007, 06:07 PM
 
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OK, bear with me here as I'm trying to do three things at once...(I'm supposed to be working, DH is cracking the whip! )

Have you noticed that all these references to the wonders of the WAPF diet and butter oil are referencing Price's work from N&PD and NOT from personal experience? Why are some people not having the same great results doing the same things from Price's time? Why are people moving to a nutrient-dense NT diet and still having remineralization problems?

This is my answer: soil health.

During Price's time, he took the utmost care in procuring the highest mineral level butter oil in order to achieve his fabulous results. He got his butter oil, as well as the wheat he used to make bread for his famous schoolchildren experiment, from Hereford TX which at the time was known as "The Town Without a Toothache".

The residents of Hereford had magnificent teeth as long as they ate the locally grown food and animal products. Their soil was very high in minerals and thus the foods grown on this soil gave them great teeth. It was this reputation that led Dr. Price to come a-knocking for foods grown on this soil.

Price was no dummy to soil health, which is why he had William Albrecht write that chapter on it in N&PD. However, the translation by Sally Fallon into NT leaves this important info out.

Why did the rural Swiss have fabulous teeth on very little vegetation? They were in the mountains, with pastures irrigated by extremely mineral-rich alpine water. "Alpine Spring Water", right? Good for your health, sound familiar? It's the minerals in this water that make it healthy.

Another extremely healthy culture was the Hunzas. Mostly vegetarian like the rural Swiss, and also a mountain-dwelling culture with water famed for it's health-building properties.

So it is my belief that with us being the bottom-dwellers on modern impoverished soils (even "organic" is not enough) and also battling modern environmental toxicities which are notorious for depleting nutrients from both flora and fauna, that we need to find every possible way to get as many minerals into us as possible. This means eating loads of veggies (yes, those studies and veg propaganda do have some truths to them) but also ensuring that we get the vital nutrients and co-factors from animal foods (which is where NT comes in).

I've spent way too many hours trying to figure this all out, but the best resource is Steve Solomon's Soil and Health Library. It's all free and online, great out-of-print resources for agriculture, health and freedom.
http://soilandhealth.org/
The stuff about Hereford TX I got from a book I found in his nutrition library called "Man vs. Toothache" by Dr. George W. Herd
Read. Learn. Enjoy. Disseminate!

And that is why I don't bother with the butter oil...if I can't be guaranteed that the soil that Green Pastures uses for their grazing cows is as mineral-rich as the soil from Hereford TX during the no-toothache times, then I ain't buying.
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#10 of 129 Old 02-10-2007, 06:58 PM
 
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Great information Toraji, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by toraji View Post
So it is my belief that with us being the bottom-dwellers on modern impoverished soils (even "organic" is not enough)
I agree with that statement; not even the "organic" produce is as nutritious as it was in past generations. But that being the case, why do you feel that eating lots of vegetables from "modern impoverished soils" would accomplish good results?
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#11 of 129 Old 02-10-2007, 08:26 PM
 
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I read in one of the NT yahoo groups about a couple of people who had their cavities heal when they supplemented (or ate foods with) vitamin K2. I had what I believe was a cavity (painful tooth though I never went to the dentist to confirm it) that healed while I was doing a candida diet with only good fats, eggs, pastured meats, and low carb veggies.
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#12 of 129 Old 02-11-2007, 10:55 AM
 
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Herth, that is wonderful re: your daughters teeth! I am encouraged that maybe I can help my kids!


Toraji, I agree, and I worry about the same things.


I have to think there is some nutritional benefit in HV BO because the color and taste. Maybe not as much as Price's, but some.

Also, you can tell the difference in the color of reg milk vs June milk, and the butter! Oh my! When spring came round at my farm (May/June) the butter turned into this vibrant orange.

Eggs...I've had chickens here at home and the yolk is again orange! Supermarket eggs are a pale yellow, so you know we are getting a lot more nutrients in our home grass fed eggs.
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#13 of 129 Old 02-11-2007, 04:36 PM
 
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Toraji- Thank you so much for your great post about your dd's teeth!!!

My dd is now 3 yo, and about 8 months ago she stopped eating vegetables. She used to be a child who if she had to chose between broccoli and mac & cheese, she'd chose broccoli. At the time she began her "green boycott" I had a new baby, and I regrettably didn't push the issue. I was doing some things right (raw milk for a time) but I didn't work with the veg issue more, and there were other not-so-great changes in her diet.

We recently found out that she had a cavity in a molar, and her 4 front top teeth have some decay. The issue we are having is that she is terrified of the dentist and the "noises" that the instruments make, and I have concerns that she would need GA to get it fixed. At this point in time, I'm not sure we won't get it fixed, but I would like to delay a bit.

And she has now started eating green vegetables again, and requesting more! Yay! I've already dealt with some undesirable habits she had (grazing on carby foods or sucking on a lollipop on/off over a period of days, yes the same lollipop.)

But now I'm trying to do anything I can to "hold off" the decay for a bit, though I'm not sure I can do enough to lead to remineralization. She did have a topical flouride treatment when she had a cleaning- it was the foam stuff in a tray for one minute? Is there something more intensive than that? (for those who do flouride, I know that is a topic in dispute and WAP is not in favor, of course...)

I do have a question about the Country Life Total Mineral supplement... is there something along those lines that would be OK for a 3 year old, or would that be OK? I don't think she could swallow a pill whole...

Thanks!

An extrovert, married to my introverted dh since '01, mothering my girls C (2003) and G (2006).

 

Love homeschooling, reading, cooking (most of the time grain-free except for when I'm not ), lactivist, former and wanna-be cloth diaperer and baby-wearer...

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#14 of 129 Old 02-12-2007, 02:23 PM
 
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HerthElde, so sorry for hijacking your thread! Congrats on your DD's teeth, which I totally forgot to say earlier.

Taedareth, there are many compounds in the veggies that are beneficial to our health and are necessary to be existent in our body's nutrient balance to keep us running smoothly. Due to modern soils, we need to consume a lot more than we probably needed to prior to the depletion of our soil. So thus, we need to eat as much as we possibly can to concentrate the nutrients. This is all just my mental mumbo-jumbo, but I do speak from experience and at least some research. When I was heavily remineralizing, I had several active cavities. I got them to become inactive through diet changes, but they would always flare up with pain on the days that I did not spend as much effort trying to get my salads and other veggies in. Selenium also made a big difference too, but the raw salad was key.

And I forgot to mention earlier that when I say veggies, I mean to focus more on non-starchy and green veggies. Eat lots of kale!

Cassandra M: I do agree that there is probably some nutritional value in the HVBO. But I don't have a lot of money to spend on what ifs and would rather apply that price to obtaining quality organ meats and shellfish for x-factor. Not to mention that I am allergic to dairy too. I wasn't debating that spring grass-fed products are superior, only that the stuff from Green Pastures may not be as nutrient-dense as the stuff that Price used. Who, by the way, would go directly to the farmers and talk with them about their feeding practices when he would get a batch of butter oil that did not have the desired effects on his patients. He would know immediately if the farmers had changed their feed.

Also, the fat on a pastured chicken is very orange too. Absolutely nothing like a caged bird.

BetsyPage, I'm going to PM you since that is going into a lot of dental technical stuff.
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HerthElde, so sorry for hijacking your thread! Congrats on your DD's teeth, which I totally forgot to say earlier.
No problem! I think it's natural for conversations to take turns like these - and I always enjoy reading your insightful posts.
Thanks for the congrats I love reading these stories about others but it's amazing when it hits closer to home
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btw, toraji, are you still keeping up your blog? If so, can I have the addy, please: ?
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#17 of 129 Old 02-12-2007, 08:25 PM
 
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btw, toraji, are you still keeping up your blog? If so, can I have the addy, please: ?
I quit blogging due to feeling exposed when people I keep on a need-to-know basis found my blog. I now send out a very rare email update...PM me with your email addy if you want to be added to the list!
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OK, bear with me here as I'm trying to do three things at once...(I'm supposed to be working, DH is cracking the whip! )
I hope this isn't a temporary personality change due to his chelation.


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Have you noticed that all these references to the wonders of the WAPF diet and butter oil are referencing Price's work from N&PD and NOT from personal experience? Why are some people not having the same great results doing the same things from Price's time? Why are people moving to a nutrient-dense NT diet and still having remineralization problems?

This is my answer: soil health.
I agree that this is a huge part of the equation, but I also think the fact that our bodies become more toxic with each generation plays an important role. I did not know that Price used butter from a specific part of Texas where the residents are known to not have any cavities. I was under the impression that he used butter from the north cental part of the country, but have never looked into this.
I was surprised that you suggest raw kale. What about raw spinach that contains oxalic acid blocking the calcium and iron from being absorbed? We do eat organic raw vegetables every day because I enjoy them, but I have a hard time believing we get many nutrients from them because of the condition of the soil. The farmers we buy from compost and use other methods to try to enrich the soil to grow more nutritious veggies, but I trust in our organ meats, eggs, raw dairy, broth, and other meats to provide us with the essential nutrients.
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#19 of 129 Old 02-13-2007, 01:34 AM
 
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I hope this isn't a temporary personality change due to his chelation.
I like to poke fun at him. I actually think the NCD has been helping a lot, he's been surprisingly happy lately.
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I agree that this is a huge part of the equation, but I also think the fact that our bodies become more toxic with each generation plays an important role. I did not know that Price used butter from a specific part of Texas where the residents are known to not have any cavities. I was under the impression that he used butter from the north cental part of the country, but have never looked into this.
I was surprised that you suggest raw kale. What about raw spinach that contains oxalic acid blocking the calcium and iron from being absorbed? We do eat organic raw vegetables every day because I enjoy them, but I have a hard time believing we get many nutrients from them because of the condition of the soil. The farmers we buy from compost and use other methods to try to enrich the soil to grow more nutritious veggies, but I trust in our organ meats, eggs, raw dairy, broth, and other meats to provide us with the essential nutrients.
Environmental toxicities absolutely play a part. We've seen how mercury affects gluten and casein digestion, so it would be no surprise if other toxins would wreak havoc with nutrient absorption. It's a pretty complex tapestry but if we try to strip down to what makes sense nutritionally then we can level the playing field a bit. So you're right, soil health is not the only part of the equation. But I still feel like it's a huge part, and that if people were properly nourished then they'd be able to detox a lot of those environmental no-nos a lot easier.

I should have specified on what to eat raw...I don't eat a lot of raw kale as I vastly prefer it cooked. I used to put a wee bit of it in my blended salads but I have not had one in a while. I stay away from greens high in oxalates as they make me feel funny too. So I use general salad greens like lettuce, arugula etc raw and cook the other greens. But I love kale and would eat it every day if I could. When we would go shopping at the co-op, people would be agog at all the produce in our cart and ask us if we ran a restaurant.
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Oh and despite declining nutrient levels in modern produce, there are still a lot of unaccounted factors and that we need in them that are difficult to get from animal foods, and we need them all to have our bodies work harmoniously. Even NT raves about the various anti-cancer compounds in vegetables (though she is so suspicious of them, rotfl). Garden of Eating Diet book has specifics on nutrients etc.

From my personal experience, where I got the most benefit was adding in loads of fresh veggies, and it is my personal theory that this is why a lot of people make surprisingly large improvements in health once they move to a vegetarian diet: they are finally eating all the veggies that their body has been missing. We had fantastic improvement in our health once we moved to a veg diet so long ago, and then went into a slow declining spiral where we lived in denial for a while.
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#21 of 129 Old 02-13-2007, 01:49 PM
 
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Another thing I forgot to mention is that if the nutrients aren't in the soil, then they won't be in any animal foods grown on that soil either.

Healthy soil = healthy plants = healthy animals = healthy humans

We need to concentrate the good stuff into the limited amount of calories we can eat in a day. Unfortunately, we are battling not only declining nutrient levels, but increased levels of environmental toxins. And also unfortunately, animals foods are higher on the food chain and thus have higher levels of those environmental nasty things. Human breastmilk is incredibly polluted. And yet, we wouldn't stop breastfeeding because of that, right? There are still compounds in the milk that humans need which outweigh the toxins in it. So thus, I would not recommend cutting out animal foods because of toxin worries because of the same reasons.

All the nutrients in the land wash out to the sea. So we can just eat loads of seafood and be ok, right? Nope. With all the nutrients also wash out all the toxins and seafood is notoriously polluted, even more than land animals.

So we still need to detox all those nasties while trying to concentrate the good stuff. That is the role of the veggies; along with giving all sorts of good balance to the diet they give you a lot of nutritional boom without adding a lot of toxic bang and you can stuff them into your diet without skyrocketing your calorie consumption. Those humble veggies assist in digesting the heavier stuff; without them we could not properly assimilate all that fat and protein from animal foods.

On a related note, here's a good article from the Garden of Eating Diet folks debunking low-carb diets:
http://www.thegardenofeatingdiet.com...vetoatkins.asp
Although I don't agree with everything he says, he does bring up a lot of good points for thought.
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Toraji - Good arguements. I'll work on increasing from one big salad a day to two. Darn, this might mean cutting down on my consumption of raw jalapeno cheddar: .
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#23 of 129 Old 02-13-2007, 06:03 PM
 
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If you're already getting one big salad a day, you're way ahead of most people! You can put your raw jalapeno cheddar on your salad.

When I was actively remineralizing, I usually did one blended and one regular salad a day along with the increased cooked veggie consumption. I also tried to have something raw at every meal for enzymes to aid digestion (so that would be the salad or something like shredded raw carrot on top of baked potato etc).
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#24 of 129 Old 02-13-2007, 06:18 PM
 
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I've actually been reading that most raw veggies don't have that many enzymes with the exception of avacado and olive oil which I do usually have on my salads. Oh, I do cover my salads with the cheddar. This detox/remin is a long road ,eh? I did find a second grey hair that was black for the last two inches of root - haven't dyed since August or September. This encourages me - yeah remin!
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#25 of 129 Old 02-13-2007, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I did find a second grey hair that was black for the last two inches of root - haven't dyed since August or September. This encourages me - yeah remin!
Hmmm, I have about 3 or so grey hairs and have a feeling nutrition is the major culprit (my mom and grandma both only have a few greys) - remineralization, huh? Is there a thread for this specific thing? I also posted a thread in H&H about my rosacea issues.
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#26 of 129 Old 02-13-2007, 07:09 PM
 
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Toraji-

That was my vegan experience also. Eating tons of veggies, feeling great for a month and then slowly getting weaker all the time.

Could you tell me what to put into a blended salad? I just came home with TONS of greens and veggies. I was also thinking that raw fermented veggies would be great with the meal where there were no raw vegs otherwise.

And, how long until you wait for your cavity to remineralize before you decide on a filling? I can see a brown spot on the top of my tooth and it is right next to the gumline...it does not hurt though.

Thanks,
Jen

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#27 of 129 Old 02-14-2007, 01:49 AM
 
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Hmmm, I have about 3 or so grey hairs and have a feeling nutrition is the major culprit (my mom and grandma both only have a few greys) - remineralization, huh? Is there a thread for this specific thing? I also posted a thread in H&H about my rosacea issues.
No thread that I know of. There have been two times in my life that major grey has come in and they were both times of extreme stress. For me, eating nutrient dense foods didn't make a difference in restoring my hair color until I was several months into my chelation program. I'm pretty toxic with metals so I had to start removing them so that my body could use the good nutrients I was giving it. Here is a link discussing heavy metals displacing nutrients :

http://www.incrediblehorizons.com/to....chelating.htm

"Heavy metals poison us by disrupting our cellular enzymes, which run on nutritional minerals such as magnesium, zinc, and selenium. Toxic metals kick out the nutrients and bind their receptor sites, causing diffuse symptoms by affecting nerves, hormones, digestion, and immune function."
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#28 of 129 Old 02-14-2007, 04:41 PM
 
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I've actually been reading that most raw veggies don't have that many enzymes with the exception of avacado and olive oil which I do usually have on my salads.
That seems odd. All the raw food info I've read including tidbits from NT said that raw food (which I'm assuming includes raw veggies) are teeming with live enzymes. <headscratch>
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#29 of 129 Old 02-14-2007, 04:50 PM
 
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Could you tell me what to put into a blended salad? I just came home with TONS of greens and veggies. I was also thinking that raw fermented veggies would be great with the meal where there were no raw vegs otherwise.

And, how long until you wait for your cavity to remineralize before you decide on a filling? I can see a brown spot on the top of my tooth and it is right next to the gumline...it does not hurt though.
A blended salad is basically whatever you would put into a salad thrown into a blender and made into a raw veggie soup (which sounds a lot more appealing than a "blended salad" lol). Blended salads are especially great for kiddos since they usually have problems chewing all the raw veggies. They are also great for adults because the blender does a much more thorough job of chewing than we can, and thus you get a lot more nutrients out of it. To make a blended salad, put a bit of water and a handful of leaves like lettuce and a wee bit of kale (too much raw kale is not so good to eat, but a little is nice). Pulse and stomp it down with a carrot. You may need a little more liquid (water and a bit of raw apple cider vinegar) to get the leaves to whirl around and chop up. Then cut the carrot into chunks and add to the blender along with other veggie chunks, like celery, broccoli, cucumber etc (whatever you would normally add to a salad). Add olive oil, vinegar (if you haven't added any prior), raw garlic and seasonings to make your “dressing” and blend until to your texture preference. Some people like it smoother, some people like it more chunky.

Re: tooth decay
You can gauge your progress by looking at the color of the decay. Contrary to popular opinion, the darker the color of the cavity, the slower the rate of decay. Once it turns black, then the cavity is dead. So you can wait until this happens, or wait and see if the color is getting darker, assume your body is making positive changes, and then decide to fill then. Depends on
how you feel about having a black spot on your teeth. If it were on my front teeth I'd probably fill it sooner, because I'm vain like that.

Oh and i do have medical references on the black color = dead cavity that my DD's dentist gave me, if you need it to show proof to anyone PM me and I can send you the PDF.
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#30 of 129 Old 02-14-2007, 05:05 PM
 
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Oh and here's another thing I just remembered:

on this page from the Soil and Health library, you can download a booklet written by William Albrecht all about soil conditions and correlated human/animal health. He found that in areas with poor soils, people and animals had poor health.

Here's the description: "The most concise yet complete statement of how climatic variations in soil fertility (or human intervention through management practices) results in hugely differing levels of animal (and human) nutrition, and consequently, differing levels of health. This booklet contains a goodly number of illustrations and consequently is a rather sizeable download, a PDF of 1.36 mb."

It's the first one on this list: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglib...010143idx.html
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