Vitamin K2 dosage? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 68 Old 12-16-2007, 11:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JaneS View Post
I've confirmed that the Thorne is synthetic so that makes me wary. I'm looking into Mercola's K2 from natto (hopefully less ingredients than Jarrow, we can't do EPO).
Mercola's contains dextrin, sunflower oil, sodium casein starch, glycerol fatty esters, natto extract, oil of rosemary.

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I wonder if it exacerbates a magnesium deficiency?
I don't know the answer, but the protocol on the vitamin k group includes magnesium. Magnesium is also a very common defiency.
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#32 of 68 Old 12-17-2007, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by carnelian View Post
Would anyone care to comment on this particular formulation by Pure Encapsulations? It's called 'Synergy K' and here's the breakdown for one capsule:

D3 :: 200 IU
K1 :: 500 mcg
K2 (MK-4) 1 mg
K2 (MK-7) 45 mcg
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#33 of 68 Old 12-18-2007, 03:45 AM
 
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Would anyone care to comment on this particular formulation by Pure Encapsulations? It's called 'Synergy K' and here's the breakdown for one capsule:

D3 :: 200 IU
K1 :: 500 mcg
K2 (MK-4) 1 mg
K2 (MK-7) 45 mcg
I wish I remembered which D vitamin was good and which bad (I think D3 is the good one, I'm sure someone else will chime in). I like the idea behind this, and this is the reason that I've been putting off making a decision. I _think_ I've got an idea of what I want to do, then I learn of more options/opinions and begin second-guessing myself. My 2 cents is that, as long as it's a) a reasonable price, and b) not too much duplicate K1 (if you take a general multi), it's a good balance. But I'd take 2/day because the MK-4 seems to be used up so quickly (and remember, I'm really a newbie at this!).

JaneS, it sounds like you're very committed to getting the nutrition right through food. I really, really admire that, because, for now, on the fat-soluble vitamin issue, I'm pretty much throwing up my hands, and I feel like that's a cop-out on my part. I just want to figure out dosages and brands and then put this on the back-burner for 6 months.

Can we make a quick cheat sheet? Brands, type of K2, source, and dose per pill? I'll summarize what we've mentioned so far (probably with some unknowns) and then folks add on?

Carlson Laboratories: 5mg menatetrenone (means MK-4, yes?), source? capsule--can open & split
Jarrow MK-7: 90mcg MK-7, natto-derived, softgel
Thorne: 1mg/drop, MK-4, synthetic (any allergens?)
Mercola: 100mcg, MK-7, natto-derived
Pure Encapsulation: 1mg MK-4 (synthetic) & 45mcg MK-7 (natto-derived)

Are all the MK-4 products synthetic? I'm not sure why I should care except for the general idea that sometimes synthetic just isn't as good as a real food.
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#34 of 68 Old 12-18-2007, 01:41 PM
 
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Source Naturals K2
http://www.vitacost.com/Source-Naturals-Vitamin-K2
Vitamin D-3 (as cholecalciferol) 400 IU
Vitamin K (as menaquinone-7) 100 mcg
Calcium 72 mg 8%
Bacillus subtilis Natto Extract 100 mg
Other ingredients: dibasic calcium phosphate, stearic acid, colloidal silicon dioxide, modified cellulose gum, and magnesium stearate.

Twinlab D3+K2 Dots
http://www.vitacost.com/Twinlab-D3-K2-Dots
Vitamin D-3 (Cholecalciferol) 1000 IU
Vitamin K2 (as menaquinone-7) (from soy) 90 mcg
Other ingredients: Natural tangerine flavor, microcrystalline cellulose, xylitol, mannitol, cholecalciferol, menaquinone-7 (from soy), citric acid, silica, magnesium stearate.

Jarrow MK-7
http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-MK-7
MK-7 (Vitamin K2 as Menaquinone-7) 90 mcg
Natto Extract 78 mg
Nattokinase 320 FU
Other ingredients: Evening Primrose Oil, beeswax, glycerol, gelatin and caramel.

NutriCology Full Spectrum Vitamin K
http://www.vitacost.com/NutriCology-...trum-Vitamin-K
http://www.nutricology.com/Full-Spec...s-p-16618.html
Vitamin A (from Cod liver oil) 200 IU
Vitamin C (from ascorbyl palmitate) 25 mg
Vitamin D-3 (90% from Cod liver oil and 10% from Skipjack and Tuna liver oil) 400 IU
Vitamin K (from 1000mcg vitamin K1 phytonadione, 3000mcg vitamin K2 menaquinone-4 and 50 mcg vitamin K2 menaquinone-7) 4050 mcg
Tocotrienols (as DeltaGOLD tocotrienols containing 90% delta tocotrienols and 10% gamma-tocotrienols) 5 mg
Other ingredients: Sunflower oil, gelatin, glycerin, water, yellow beeswax, carob extract, soy lecithin, zinc oxide.

Carlson Vitamin K2
http://www.vitacost.com/Carlson-Vitamin-K2
Vitamin K2 (menatetrenone) 5 mg
Other ingredients: Cellulose, magnesium stearate, silica, vegetable stearin
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#35 of 68 Old 12-18-2007, 02:13 PM
 
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#36 of 68 Old 12-18-2007, 02:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ccasanova View Post
When you said, "healing cavities in dental" did you actually mean that a tooth with a cavity is actually able to heal itself??? And that the cavity will be gone? I think I have some very interesting reading coming to me if I read that correctly!
From "On the Trail of the Elusive X Factor: A 62 Year Old Mystery Finally Solved" by Chris Masterjohn in Spring 2007, Wise Traditions...

Quote:
VITAMIN K2 AND DENTAL HEALTH
Weston Price was primary interested in Activator X because of its ability to control dental caries. By studying the remains of human skeletons from past eras, he estimated that there had been more dental caries in the preceding hundred years than there had been in any previous thousand year period and suggested that Activator X was a key substance that people of the past obtained but that modern nutrition did not adequately provide. Price used the combination of high-vitamin cod liver oil and high-Activator X butter oil as the cornerstone of his protocol for reversing dental caries. This protocol not only stopped the progression of tooth decay, but completely reversed it without the need for oral surgery by causing the dentin to grow and remineralize, sealing what were once active caries with a glassy finish. One 14 year old girl completely healed 42 open cavities in 24 teeth by taking capsules of the high vitamin cod liver oil and Activator X [butter oil] concentrate three times a day for seven months.
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#37 of 68 Old 12-18-2007, 02:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
I wish I remembered which D vitamin was good and which bad (I think D3 is the good one, I'm sure someone else will chime in).
D3 is the good one but not synthetic D3 (powdered), you want the natural D3 from fish oil. D2 is the toxic vegan version, lots of side effects. Forget what it's made from... "by irradiating something" I want to say.
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#38 of 68 Old 12-18-2007, 02:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
JaneS, it sounds like you're very committed to getting the nutrition right through food. I really, really admire that, because, for now, on the fat-soluble vitamin issue, I'm pretty much throwing up my hands, and I feel like that's a cop-out on my part. I just want to figure out dosages and brands and then put this on the back-burner for 6 months....

Are all the MK-4 products synthetic? I'm not sure why I should care except for the general idea that sometimes synthetic just isn't as good as a real food.


What is being beaten into my head over and over again it seems is that vitamin capsules do not work for us! Whether it's magnesium supplements (except transdermal) or zinc or sodium ascorbate... etc etc ... synthetic versions just do not treat my and my DS's body well. Our digestive systems just do not do well on them.

So our experiences, coupled with a strong belief and hours of research in WAPF nutrition, I just cannot ignore it any longer. I had my 6 months of back burner already!

DS's been dairy free for 4 months now, and our allergy dietician says ghee is okay to try so I think I'll just try the butter oil for now and see how it goes. He's very stable now so I feel like I'll be able to see a change. At least it's raw unlike ghee, which I really do think makes a difference for tolerance.
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#39 of 68 Old 12-18-2007, 02:48 PM
 
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Bio-D-Mulsion is a good Vitamin D. http://www.bioticsresearch.com/en/cms/?236#biodmulsion

Not cheap, but in my experience many of the cheapers ones are a waste of money because they don't get absorbed well.

What about Natto? Anyone using that?
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#40 of 68 Old 12-18-2007, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Wow, you ladies are so knowledgeable! I'm just keep learning and learning!
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#41 of 68 Old 12-21-2007, 01:08 AM
 
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I posted this in the dental thread, not sure if it's pertinent but thought I'd share anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ron
The dosage of X-factor oil Price used to treat a four-year old boy suffering with rampant tooth decay and an unhealed fracture is instructive--a "large spoonful" five times a day! When I became ill with Lyme disease, I had for many years used cod liver oil daily, but not the high-vitamin type, and X-factor oil was not available. (Also, intense exercise depletes vitamin A and I was doing that on a daily basis.) I switched to high-vitamin cod liver oil, and when it became available about a year and a half ago, I added X-factor oil to my supplements. I’ve since used 2 large tablespoonfuls a day of high-vitamin cod liver oil, providing about 70,000 IU of vitamin A and 7,000 IU of vitamin D, and two or three teaspoons of X-factor oil.
He's not very exact, is he? But there you go.

http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndi...icdisease.html
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#42 of 68 Old 12-21-2007, 01:10 AM
 
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This is funny. As soon as I saw your post in Dental, Metasequoia, I came over here to get the link to this discussion to add it to the one over there. I agree that these tend to be very closely intertwined discussions.
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#43 of 68 Old 12-21-2007, 12:49 PM
 
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My head is spinning so fast it hurts.

Can someone give me the SKINNY on vitamin K. I want to supplement my children but have never known what to give them. They currently take the Blue Ice CLO.

I don't know what the different K2, K3, MK designations are. I'd really appreciate a good brand name recommendation (along with which one - K2, K3, MK??). Someone mentioned Carlson's and Thorne's...these are good?

Thank you!
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#44 of 68 Old 12-24-2007, 05:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by EENS View Post
My head is spinning so fast it hurts.

Can someone give me the SKINNY on vitamin K. I want to supplement my children but have never known what to give them. They currently take the Blue Ice CLO.

I don't know what the different K2, K3, MK designations are. I'd really appreciate a good brand name recommendation (along with which one - K2, K3, MK??). Someone mentioned Carlson's and Thorne's...these are good?

Thank you!


:

Iam also confused , and would like to give my kids k....something, but don't know what.. I do prefer something with less ingredients and am at a los as to whether the natto is better or the synthetic ( I don't generaly like synthetics)
also if someone is allergic to soy , is natto a problem??
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#45 of 68 Old 12-27-2007, 03:12 PM
 
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JaneS, how much raw milk and bone broth was your son consuming during the period where is facial bone structure improved?
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#46 of 68 Old 12-30-2007, 01:01 AM
 
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I've had a little revelation and I thought someone here might appreciate it. It has to do with the interconnectedness of A, D, and K. I started supplementing my son with CLO last winter/spring after a series of colds. Coincidentally, a bit later, my son started having intermittent nosebleeds, which run in my family (grandmother, mom, aunts, and I all had nosebleeds in childhood, which we eventually outgrew).

It wasn't a coincidence. On a hunch, I was searching old threads in the vitamin K yahoo group and we aren't alone. The way the body uses the A & D uses K, which is important for clotting. I don't know if this is just due to dietary intake, a genetic quirk, the mercury, or a combination, but my son seems to be most deficient in K, instead of A or D. I can't explain how the three really interact, I read the Chris Masterjohn article, but I need to look at the diagram each time, but things are starting to click into place.

Anyway, I just ordered some Thorne vitamin k2 (from amazon) and fwiw (have I mentioned that this, the nosebleeds, aren't the only thing I've messed up?) I'm going to start each kid at 1 drop / day, do that for a week, and then go to 2 drops/day (spaced, one at breakfast and one at lunch) and then add in a dinner drop (1mg/drop). I think my son, at least, needs the K more than the A & D, I'm going to do the vitK for a week or two before starting any CLO (we aren't doing any now). Since I think we have a lot of making up to do, I'm going to see if we can do 10,000 IU of A each day for a while, double the WAPF maintenance dose. The vitamin k yahoo group says we can go higher than 3mg/day for the k2, so I may do that as time goes on.

Mombh-I'm going with the synthetic partly because, with the yahoo group, I've got a knowledge base to draw on. If we had a soy allergy, I definitely wouldn't do the natto-derived ones. I've considered getting a natto-based supp and doing that twice a week in addition to the Thorne, but I think I'm going to start slow and just try to get the Thorne k2 and the CLO into our routine.

EENS-I shared my plan above, but I am not at all qualified to make recommendations to anyone else. I've made mistakes and learned things on my way, but I'm still really in the learning phase. But I wanted to share because other people are also here learning and maybe someone can learn from my mistakes.
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#47 of 68 Old 12-30-2007, 01:44 AM
 
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Thanks Tanya, it is intersting, especially the nosebleeds. one of my ds's(13 yr old) has frequent nose bleeds as I did as a child as well as some of my sibs.
He currently takes fish oil supplement, it's the only thing he takes...and now Im going...hhhhmmmm.......
I just read a great article about k2 by James A Howenstine M.D. and he recomends eating gouda and Edam cheeses and natto as good sources of k2 in addition to supplementing. He recomends Synergy K containing 45 mcg of k2(MK-7) and 1mg of MK-4.
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#48 of 68 Old 01-07-2008, 09:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gilamama View Post
JaneS, how much raw milk and bone broth was your son consuming during the period where is facial bone structure improved?
Including cheese and cream, probably about 2 or maybe 3 oz each and 16 oz of milk. Butter too, about 4 teaspoons maybe. Bone broth was at least every other day sometimes more often, 1/2 cup. Hard to say with the broth, as I try to cook with it.
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#49 of 68 Old 01-07-2008, 09:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by EENS View Post
My head is spinning so fast it hurts.

Can someone give me the SKINNY on vitamin K. I want to supplement my children but have never known what to give them. They currently take the Blue Ice CLO.

I don't know what the different K2, K3, MK designations are. I'd really appreciate a good brand name recommendation (along with which one - K2, K3, MK??). Someone mentioned Carlson's and Thorne's...these are good?

Thank you!
I would do the Radiant Life or Green Pastures (it's the same but you might prefer a diff. company to ship) butter oil. 1x/day for maintenance if you have grass fed dairy and pastured eggs in your diet. Or 3x day for tooth healing, asthma, allergies, or other health crisis. It's natural as opposed to synthetic, Thorne's. Forget what Carlson's is now.
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#50 of 68 Old 01-08-2008, 12:16 AM
 
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he recomends eating gouda and Edam cheeses
This is killing me. I've been craving cheese for several weeks now, it's been horrible. I can't have any, but I've been thinking about all the lovely flavors and textures... oh, it's been bad.

I'll go off and look for his article, I want to learn more, and I'd like something to send to my mom, she's got osteoporosis and I want to share it with her. Thx.
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#51 of 68 Old 01-08-2008, 01:05 AM
 
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JaneS,

How old was your son when you saw facial changes? How long did it take?

Did you also do cranial sacral therapy?
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#52 of 68 Old 01-11-2008, 08:24 PM
 
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for anyone looking for food sources of MK-4:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles...54_463-467.pdf

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#53 of 68 Old 01-14-2008, 07:51 PM
 
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another link for the nursing moms:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00003/art00004
Quote:
In conclusion, dietary phylloquinone is a source of menaquinone-4 in breast milk. Phylloquinone supplementation to lactating mothers may be of benefit to the newborn infant, since both phylloquinone and menaquinone-4 are raised by supplementation.
By supplementing mom with 2mg/day K1, they found a 7x increase in MK-4 in breastmilk.

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#54 of 68 Old 01-15-2008, 04:28 PM
 
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for dosage of the butter oil:
http://www.greenpasture.org/library/...il/activator-x
Quote:
Price demonstrated that rickets in rats could be healed by adding to a deficient diet butter-oil concentrate from a high-vitamin butter, in the amount of two percent of the calories in the diet. The quantity of oil used would constitute about one-half ounce for a child eating two pounds of food a day.
Something doesn't add up there...
for an adult eating 2000 cal/day, that's 40 Calories of butter oil. Assuming it's the same energy density as coconut oil, that's 4.6g or .16 ounces.

.5 ounces would be about 120 Calories - 6% of a 2000 Calorie diet, or 8% of a 1500 Calorie diet (kid diet?)

150mcg/20g butter oil (using Tanya's numbers) = 150mcg/172 Cal

in any case,
.5 ounces = 14g = 105 mcg MK-4 = 120 Cal
4.6g = 34.5 mcg MK-4 = 40 Cal (2%)
2500 Cal*8% = 200 Cal butter oil = 174mcg MK-4 (based on calories for a nursing mom)

so ballpark range, somewhere between 34.5mcg for a kid, or up to 174mcg (or higher?) for a nursing mom.

if you wanted your MK-4 from food, that's 1-6 lbs/day of beef, .5- of chicken liver, .3-1.7 oz goose liver pate, or a 6-32 egg yolks (from the netherlands).
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#55 of 68 Old 01-15-2008, 04:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JaneS View Post
I would do the Radiant Life or Green Pastures (it's the same but you might prefer a diff. company to ship) butter oil. 1x/day for maintenance if you have grass fed dairy and pastured eggs in your diet. Or 3x day for tooth healing, asthma, allergies, or other health crisis. It's natural as opposed to synthetic, Thorne's. Forget what Carlson's is now.

Thank you! I have another thread with a related question, but its buried now.

For healing, should I give the BO in conjunction with the CLO 3x/day? Or is BO 3x/day and CLO 1x/day sufficient?
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#56 of 68 Old 01-15-2008, 06:33 PM
 
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Thank you! I have another thread with a related question, but its buried now.

For healing, should I give the BO in conjunction with the CLO 3x/day? Or is BO 3x/day and CLO 1x/day sufficient?
I think Price gave them together in equal parts for healing (For example: 1/2 teaspoon of each 3x per day). I am not sure if that is necessary, but it worked for him!

Jen

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#57 of 68 Old 01-15-2008, 07:46 PM
 
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I think Price gave them together in equal parts for healing (For example: 1/2 teaspoon of each 3x per day). I am not sure if that is necessary, but it worked for him!

Jen
thank you!
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#58 of 68 Old 01-16-2008, 12:33 AM
 
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WhoMe, the food list link was really interesting (well, everything was, but that was particularly enlightening). It looks like the 15mcg/100g of K2 in egg yolks is regular grocery store eggs--I was never completely clear on that from the Chris Masterjohn article, but that's the value he cited for US eggs. Which doesn't say how much is in typical pastured egg yolks, but it stands to reason it's more, because the (presumably regular grocery store) Netherlands eggs are twice as rich, Price thought egg yolks were a good source.
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#59 of 68 Old 01-16-2008, 01:25 AM
 
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150mcg/20g butter oil (using Tanya's numbers) = 150mcg/172 Cal
I think something was lost in translation, or maybe my brain is working even slower than I thought.

Back in post 21, I wrote:
Quote:
So, if wikipedia is right (great source, I know) and there are 5 grams per teaspoon of butter, then 20 g of butter makes 1/2 tsp butter oil. And if my rough approximations mean anything, then that's about 150mcg of vitK2 per 1/2 tsp dose of butter oil (I don't remember anything about typical recommended dosage sizes of butter oil).
I think what I meant (it's been a long time) is that 20g of butter is processed down to 1/2 tsp of butter oil (I guess about 5 grams--not sure of the density of butter oil--I'm assuming the other 15g was water, and, well, not sure what else). So I think if you multiple the 150mcg by 4, then that's about right. Does that make sense, or is it too late for me to be awake?
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#60 of 68 Old 02-10-2008, 01:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
I think what I meant (it's been a long time) is that 20g of butter is processed down to 1/2 tsp of butter oil (I guess about 5 grams--not sure of the density of butter oil--I'm assuming the other 15g was water, and, well, not sure what else). So I think if you multiple the 150mcg by 4, then that's about right. Does that make sense, or is it too late for me to be awake?
Okay, I'm just now getting back to this....

here's my new numbers:

600mcg/20g butter oil (using Tanya's numbers) = 600mcg/172 Cal

in any case,
.5 ounces = 14g = 420 mcg MK-4 = 120 Cal
4.6g = 138 mcg MK-4 = 40 Cal (2%)
2500 Cal*8% = 200 Cal butter oil = 700mcg MK-4 (based on calories for a nursing mom)

so ballpark range, somewhere between 140mcg for a kid, or up to 700mcg (or higher?) for a nursing mom. Presumably, these numbers are repeated 3x/day?

for some more numbers, there was the 4-year old boy who healed a fracture and tooth decay. He got "a dessert spoonful" 5 times a day. A dessert spoonful is about .3 fl oz - so 263mcg 5x/day (1.3mg total per day)

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That's a lot less than is recommended in the vitamin K group. I wonder if they need a higher dosage to clear out the oxalates than is needed just to reverse cavities?

allergy-nutrition mama, dh, 4yo dd, and March ds
Eating shouldn't be stressful!
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