Vitamin K2 dosage? - Mothering Forums

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Old 12-13-2007, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Anyone know? I'm interested for my 3 yr old and 14 month old. We've stopped using BO since ds1 is trying dairy free. We have the Thorne Research brand, but it doesn't have dosage recommendation. TIA!
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:58 AM
 
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On the Vitamin K yahoo group they recommend 15 drops for adults and 5 drops for younger children.
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:45 AM
 
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where did you get the thorne product? i've been looking for it, to no avail...

Jennifer, Naturopath and mom

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Old 12-14-2007, 02:27 AM
 
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Tbone, how much CLO (if any) are you giving? I'm subbing now because I've been trying to wrap my brain around the same question, but it seems like A&D dosage is closely linked to K2 dosage.
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Old 12-14-2007, 03:01 AM
 
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Westcoastmom-I was re-reading the vitamin k protocol from the yahoo group and I'm going to quote it because I have never been completely clear and I'm hoping you can help. It says (for others):

Quote:
The adult dose is 15 mg TID (three times daily). The weight-adjusted dose for children is one mg TID for each 10 pounds (4.5 kilograms) of body weight, up to a maximum of 15 mg TID. This vitamin should be started initially at a much lower dose than the maximum, especially if the child has a history of seizures, because it is a powerful vitamin which takes effect slowly.
I read that to mean that adults should take 15mg 3x/day for a total of 45mg/day, and kids should take 1mg per 10lbs body weight 3x/day (so a 30-pound child would take a total of 9mg per day, divided into 3 doses). Although it also says these are pharmacological doses, which I read as "this will act like a drug rather than just a vitamin." Did I misinterpret anything (everything)?

I thought the 3x/day was because it is the MK-4 version of K2 which has a really short half-life. I've been trying to figure out what we need to supplement with, since I think the kids, especially my son, is really low, along with A&D, and right now the MK-7 version seems appealing since it has a 3-day half life (if I remember correctly).

Anyway, I know just enough to have gotten myself confused and stuck in the do-nothing place. :
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:20 AM
 
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Oops, yes that is three times a day!

I think the pharmalogical doses may mean for healing rather than health maintenance.

MK-4 is more commonly found in soft tissues and organs while Mk-7 is more commonly found in bone.

Taking a quick look some of these have lower potency and other ingredients. For example Jarrow MK-7 is a much lower potency and it takes 11 gelcaps to equal one drop of Thorne K-2

Numerous studies in Japan with doses of 45 mg have shown no problems. They used the Mk-4 version to treat osteoporosis.
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:28 PM
 
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Taking a quick look some of these have lower potency and other ingredients. For example Jarrow MK-7 is a much lower potency and it takes 11 gelcaps to equal one drop of Thorne K-2
But I think the recommended dosages of an MK-7 supp are lower, a lot lower, than for an MK-4 one.

Quote:
Numerous studies in Japan with doses of 45 mg have shown no problems. They used the Mk-4 version to treat osteoporosis.
And this shows why I need to go back and re-read, because somehow I'd assumed it was the MK-7 (which is mostly natto derived, I think--I guess that's why I made that assumption).

I've been hesitant to use the dosing from the vitamin k group because they're trying to affect change in such a specific group, autistic children, who are having a lot of specific problems (I guess they're mostly trying to address the calcium problems). Now, I do wonder about the links from autism to mercury and mercury to fat-soluble vitamins, because mercury is a problem for us, but I don't know how to puzzle out the answers I want.

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MK-4 is more commonly found in soft tissues and organs while Mk-7 is more commonly found in bone.
Ah, and this is something I didn't know. Do you have any good links you could share? I want to learn more, and mostly I get hits to sites selling supplements, which aren't terribly helpful.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:50 PM
 
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A quick answer for now as I have to run.

From my research there have not shown to be too high doses of K2, and this may well be because of the short life and the body uses what it needs.

Yes, the vitamin K group is mostly addressing autism however I have read of many other special needs, family members who don't have autism seeing lots of benefits from the protocol.

As for the mercury, Calcium Oxalates build up in the liver, kidneys, gut and they hinder the body's natural ability to deal with toxins like mercury. K2 helps get calcium out of arteries and places where it doesn't belong and back into bone. So in that sense the soft tissue part and bone part are related.

From my reading on the vitamin K group, Thorne K2 is a pure form.

I have to do a little looking to see if there is a pure form of MK-7 K2 that could be combined with K2 (ie less dose of K2 and some MK-7)

I hear you on the sites selling stuff. One of the things I hate about Mercola. Yes he does have some good info, but it is like the biggest natural health "infomercial" style web sale going.
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Old 12-14-2007, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by westcoastmom View Post
On the Vitamin K yahoo group they recommend 15 drops for adults and 5 drops for younger children.
So does 1 drop=1mg? Ds1 is 28 lbs, so I would give 3 drop, TID?

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Originally Posted by bluets View Post
where did you get the thorne product? i've been looking for it, to no avail...
TotalDiscountVitamins.com

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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
Tbone, how much CLO (if any) are you giving? I'm subbing now because I've been trying to wrap my brain around the same question, but it seems like A&D dosage is closely linked to K2 dosage.
I give both of mine (3yrs and 14 months) 1/4 tsp of the Blue Ice High Vitamin CLO.
I didn't realize the dosage for K2 is correlated to the dosage of CLO.
I'm going to join the yahoo group.
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Old 12-14-2007, 07:23 PM
 
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If you join, you get to look at their Files section, and it has the fascinating article by Chris Masterjohn (On the Trail of the Elusive X-Factor) where he lays out the evidence for Price's X-Factor being vitamin K2. Great article. Worth reading several times.

That's the one that discusses (with diagrams for folks like me who need it simple) how the three interact. But it doesn't have nice, neat formulas for how much of each.

And here's another thread that was my intro to the vitK2 topic, in case anyone is interested and doesn't have it bookmarked:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ighlight=natto

Tbone, remind me how much A & D are in 1/4 tsp of HVCLO? I should know that, but it keeps slipping away. FWIW, the vitamin k protocol of the yahoo group recommends what I think is the standard WAP dosages, 5000 IU/day for younger kids, and up to 10,000 IU/day for older kids (forgot the exact ages)...

Okay, here it is from the yahoo group protocol (had to stop being lazy).

Children age 3 months to 2 years: A dose of CLO that provides about 5,000 IU daily.

Children 2 years to 10 years: A dose of CLO that provides between 5,000 IU and 11,000 IU daily.

Children over 10 years and adults: A dose of CLO that provides between 5,000 IU and 16,000 IU daily.

Pregnant and nursing women: A dose of CLO that provides about 20,000 IU daily.

Westcoastmom--lots of good points, thank you. And I especially appreciate it right now, because I just today realized I need to make a decision soon. My son's gotten a series of minor colds this fall, and over the past few days I've started worrying that this one isn't resolving on its own so I decided yesterday to see if giving him some vitamin A (from capsules, right now he's really fighting supplements so I needed something very concentrated) would help--and it did, this is the 2nd time that high doses of vitamin A have been necessary to stop a cold from progressing into something worse. Clearly my supplementation this past year with HVCLO (no K2) wasn't that useful--I stopped 2 months ago, and he really should have stored more, I think, so I am left with the feeling that he didn't absorb it well without the additional K2.
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Old 12-15-2007, 12:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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The label says that 1/4 tsp is 2875 IU of Vit. A. That's much less than the WAPF recommendation. I was giving them each 1/2 tsp which I think was 5785 IU but I noticed ds2's skin getting dry so I cut back (fear of Vit A toxicity), ds1 already has dry, itchy skin so no change there.

I did join, I will check out that article, thanks!
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Old 12-15-2007, 05:34 PM
 
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Thorne is MK-4? I thought it was from natto?

Now I'm confuzed.
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Old 12-15-2007, 05:44 PM
 
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Has there been any measurement of K2 in butter oil?
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:42 PM
 
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Thorne says their product is menatetrenone and advises 3x/day dosing, so it seems to me it's MK-4 because of the half-life.

Quote:
Has there been any measurement of K2 in butter oil?
Not that I know of. I looked a bit, a while back. But we could make a guess... hold on...

I wanted to do a bit of sanity-checking using the numbers in Masterjohn's article as a rough starting place. Their butter was 15mcg/100g butter for what I assume is regular grocery store butter (I never got the impression that the WAP Foundation did the measurements). And Masterjohn's statement that Price saw a 50x difference in butter (which I'm sure is an approximation), so I'm going to assume that good butter would be about 50x this, so 750mcg/100g, and 100g of butter provides about 700 calories.

I think I'm going to start off at 1 drop 3x/day for the kids (almost 30 and almost 40 lbs). Sorta arbitrary, and I reserve the right to go up at some later date. And I think I'm going to do 2x the WAP standard guidelines for CLO because we do have a lot of restocking of reserves.

I remember one of the threads, I think one of the Curing Cavities threads in Dental (the one you started, JaneS?) had an amount of butter or cream needed to make butter oil. I'll try to go find that and see what the K2 would be, assuming the 750mcg/100g is a decent ballpark guess.

Hmm... seems like K2 doesn't really build up, right? This keeps surprising me because in my mind, fat-soluble is synonymous with build-up in the body (vitamin A). So higher levels of K2 really need to be around pretty much constantly in order for the body to, essentially, catch up. One good argument for high dosing.
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:50 PM
 
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What would be great is if we could figure out how much K primitive people's consumed. (Maybe you did Tanya!) From the WAPF site I gathered they had 50,000 iu day of and 4,000 iu day of D (for adults).

If anyone figures out an adult doasge, please post. I need to go checkout the yahoo group myself. Right now I take 1 Jarrow MK-7 90 mcg, but I am sure I need more.....

Quote:
Hmm... seems like K2 doesn't really build up, right? This keeps surprising me because in my mind, fat-soluble is synonymous with build-up in the body (vitamin A). So higher levels of K2 really need to be around pretty much constantly in order for the body to, essentially, catch up. One good argument for high dosing.
Tanya--I think it is odd what I read about about the fat soluables too. But primitives ate such high amounts of them and it seems that they can be so rapidly depleated. I read that in the winter you can go through vitamin D stores of 3-4,000 iu day! So even if we do "store it up" we easily use it up too.

Jen

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Old 12-16-2007, 02:14 AM
 
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i had never heard of taking K2 as a supplement. Is this an alternative to taking BO? Will it give you the same effects as BO? Is it less or more expensive? I just ordered my first bottle of BO to take with CLO.
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Old 12-16-2007, 02:34 AM
 
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Is this an alternative to taking BO? Will it give you the same effects as BO? Is it less or more expensive?
It's sort of an alternative to butter oil. The vitamin K2 seems to be the most important thing in butter oil, but all the other substances probably work nicely together with it. That said, supplements are cheaper, and that's why I'm going this route.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:28 AM
 
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I remember one of the threads, I think one of the Curing Cavities threads in Dental (the one you started, JaneS?) had an amount of butter or cream needed to make butter oil.
Were you thinking of this? We estimated 4 tsp butter to make 1/2 tsp butter oil.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?p=5550993
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:52 AM
 
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When you said, "healing cavities in dental" did you actually mean that a tooth with a cavity is actually able to heal itself??? And that the cavity will be gone? I think I have some very interesting reading coming to me if I read that correctly!
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:00 AM
 
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There is a massive thread over in Dental called Curing Cavities with Nutrition. I figured out the Thread Tools (Show in printable version, 200 posts/pg) because of it.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:06 AM
 
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Were you thinking of this? We estimated 4 tsp butter to make 1/2 tsp butter oil.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?p=5550993
Yes! That's the one I was thinking of. Thank you!

So, if wikipedia is right (great source, I know) and there are 5 grams per teaspoon of butter, then 20 g of butter makes 1/2 tsp butter oil. And if my rough approximations mean anything, then that's about 150mcg of vitK2 per 1/2 tsp dose of butter oil (I don't remember anything about typical recommended dosage sizes of butter oil).
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:22 AM
 
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:26 AM
 
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Warning: K2 can cause insomnia! (Ask me how I know ) It's best not to start with 5 mg as the beginning dose!

Carlson's makes an MK-4 version of K2 that is a whole lot cheaper than the Thorne's one. There's 60 5 mg capsules in a bottle and I think I got the bottle for about $15. I just open up the capsules to dose the amount I want--the powder has very little flavor and you could mix it with food for kids. I think the Jarrow K2 is from natto.

JaneS--do you have any theories on whether there was a particular aspect of raw milk that helped your DS' facial structure change? I know we've theorized that it was the K2 but if you still think he's K2 deficient it seems like it must have been something else.
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:07 PM
 
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Caedmyn--how much of the Carlsons do you take per day? I am trying to balance my fat soluables (I take 20,000iu A, 5,700 iu D) Plus I eat liver.

I am almost out of the Jarrow stuff so I may switch to Carlson's.
Here it is http://www.carlsonlabs.com/product_d...f&categid=0025 WHy in the world does it say not to use during pregnancy or BFing?!!! They ususally say "consult your doctor". Is it just another CYA?! My nutritionist recommends 1mg of K or K2 during pregnancy.

Thanks,
Jen

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Old 12-16-2007, 05:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TanyaLopez View Post
Yes! That's the one I was thinking of. Thank you!

So, if wikipedia is right (great source, I know) and there are 5 grams per teaspoon of butter, then 20 g of butter makes 1/2 tsp butter oil. And if my rough approximations mean anything, then that's about 150mcg of vitK2 per 1/2 tsp dose of butter oil (I don't remember anything about typical recommended dosage sizes of butter oil).
I think Price used equal parts CLO to butter oil when treating people.

I just wanted to say that MDC mamas never cease to amaze me! Great job on calculations Tanya!

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Old 12-16-2007, 09:53 PM
 
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Caedmyn--how much of the Carlsons do you take per day? I am trying to balance my fat soluables (I take 20,000iu A, 5,700 iu D) Plus I eat liver.

I am almost out of the Jarrow stuff so I may switch to Carlson's.
Here it is http://www.carlsonlabs.com/product_d...f&categid=0025 WHy in the world does it say not to use during pregnancy or BFing?!!! They ususally say "consult your doctor". Is it just another CYA?! My nutritionist recommends 1mg of K or K2 during pregnancy.

Thanks,
Jen
I think I took 5 mgs for a bit (after I worked my way up), then 2.5 mgs, then 1.25 mgs, and now I'm taking 1 mg. My current dose is more or less based on nutritionist Krispin Sullivan's recommendations for 1 mg of K2. I think the pregnancy warning is just CYA...FWIW I took it when I was pregnant and I'll take it again.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:20 PM
 
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Would anyone care to comment on this particular formulation by Pure Encapsulations? It's called 'Synergy K' and here's the breakdown for one capsule:

D3 :: 200 IU
K1 :: 500 mcg
K2 (MK-4) 1 mg
K2 (MK-7) 45 mcg

You all know more about this vitamin than do I and I'd appreciate some input on this particular form of the supplement.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:23 PM
 
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JaneS--do you have any theories on whether there was a particular aspect of raw milk that helped your DS' facial structure change? I know we've theorized that it was the K2 but if you still think he's K2 deficient it seems like it must have been something else.
I have no certainty at this point! Our dentist said that maybe since he was doing raw milk and bone broths it was just too much calcium for the amount of K2 he was getting. And of course the magnesium issue. He is growing very well now so I'm happy about that at least. His height had slowed while his tooth spacing improved...figure that one out!

The other issue on the calculus could also be that he can be a mouth breather. It's all cleaned off now so we shall see what goes on in the next 6 months. In any case, K2 in his diet is not as high as it should be now that he is dairy free. Sigh. Thinking of fish eggs but don't know how we could do it several times/day. He loves seafood, I need to look into shellfish sources more. This poor kid is such a lab experiment!
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:25 PM
 
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I've confirmed that the Thorne is synthetic so that makes me wary. I'm looking into Mercola's K2 from natto (hopefully less ingredients than Jarrow, we can't do EPO).
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:26 PM
 
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Warning: K2 can cause insomnia! (Ask me how I know ) It's best not to start with 5 mg as the beginning dose!
I wonder if it exacerbates a magnesium deficiency?
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