Care to share how you feel about SF?? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 147 Old 02-12-2008, 09:11 PM
 
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15082086
"FM is postulated to be an autoimmune disorder and may include dysfunction of purine nucleotide metabolism and nociception."


Researchers are becoming more aware of the immune system and how it plays a role in the development of fibromyalgia. When the immune system is activated it can affect the peripheral nerves, portions of the spinal cord and brain, causing an increase in pain. A good example of this phenomenon is shingles, which is a herpes virus that attacks the nerves, causing excruciating pain. Many people diagnosed with fibromyalgia relate that the onset of their symptoms occurred either during or right after a viral infection such as the flu. Exactly how the immune system is involved in the development of fibromyalgia is still a mystery, but scientific researchers are busy investigating this connection.

http://www.backtobetterhealth.com/fibromyalgia.html
http://www.mold-survivor.com/fibromyalgia.html
Yikes! I have most of the symptoms on that list. Of course, I have lyme and it does mimic other diseases. Which is exactly why I am going the TF route. So as to hopefully heal all of this cr@p. I guess I do have to thank Sally Fallon for that at least.

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#62 of 147 Old 02-12-2008, 09:43 PM
 
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I love NT because it introduced me to TF and is a great reference book IMO.

That being said, I do agree with the pp that many of the recipes can so easily be improved upon. I think it depends tho on whether you like bland food or highly spiced food. I fall into the latter category for sure.

I did notice a lot of what she says has a spiritual bent to it that is strongly influenced by her anthroposophic associations. The "partner" book to NT on health and healing (can't remember what it's called) is based on anthroposophic medicine. Anthroposophy was the philosophy of Rudolf Steiner, founder of the Waldorf school. While I love much of Waldorf and implement a lot of it's ideas into our home, I personally disagree with most of the anthroposophic presupositions behind it. Also, a lot of the Waldorf/anthroposophy movement (tho not all) tends to be very euro-centric.

And yeah, I really can't stand what she says about breastfeeding which I think is more clear on the WAPF than in NT. It really bugs me that she considers LLL to be a negative institution just because they don't have the best nutrition advice in their book. Grrr....

As an aside, Steiner did recommend breastfeeding but he recommended weaning before one. I *think* he recommends not breastfeeding past 8 months, but I don't remember off the top of my head, it could be younger. His spiritual science taught that to much of the mother's etheric essence, or something, passes to the baby if she keeps nursing too long. I've found many anthroposophists willing to modernize Steiner's teachings, but many are not. If she is an anthroposophist, she may be influenced by this teaching as well.
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#63 of 147 Old 02-12-2008, 11:42 PM
 
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Interesting to note that there is a connection between celiac and too much prolactin and oversupply. I've been looking into that.

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#64 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 12:08 AM
 
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Interesting to note that there is a connection between celiac and too much prolactin and oversupply. I've been looking into that.
sorry for typing nak .....really? any links? I had massive os 1st time-not as bad this time though and some issues w/ grains I'm trying to figure out.

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#65 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 12:25 AM
 
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just google celiac + prolactin and you'll get plenty.
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#66 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:03 AM
 
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I just don't vibe with SF & NT, though I do respect the hell out of her and refer to the book from time to time. When I talk to people abut TF, I always recommend Nina Planck's book "Real Food: What To Eat and Why", it's much more friendly, accessible, and up-to-date.

http://www.ninaplanck.com/
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#67 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 05:20 AM
 
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PCOS isn't officially autoimmune either. Yet. I have it, sure wish I didn't.

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#68 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 10:58 AM
 
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PCOS isn't officially autoimmune either. Yet. I have it, sure wish I didn't.
THis one not conclusively, but we are getting closer. Many docs are acknowledging it is. I don't wait for something to be "official" necessarily if there is enough evidence that it is. Eventually they will get there. However, since it is being effectively treated with specific dietary changes I don't think it's that far down the road.

This is an area of interest of mine (autoimmune) and I really like keeping up on the findings and treatments. Alternative medicine is acknowledging it and for me that's more than enough. They are light years ahead of allopathy IMO.
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#69 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 12:04 PM
 
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Ooooh, I'll jump in here! What a great discussion!

I hope enough of my coffee has kicked in that I can make sense...

I have mixed feelings about Sally as well, but for different reasons. I'm on a couple of WAPF/NT-based email lists for mamas of babies or little kids. The Egg Yolk Question comes up pretty much every time we get a new member. "Do I really need to feed my little baby an egg yolk every day?" Or something like that. It would seem that a great many babies react to egg yolks, even when it's really, really carefully separated and it's JUST the yolk and... yeah. What's up? Is it really safe to introduce an allergen so soon? So... people have repeatedly emailed SF to ask her about it. And she staunchly, despite all the facts, continues to believe the allergic reactions are the exception and all babies should still be fed yolks from 4 months on.

It really pisses me off.

Most of us that have stumbled across NT or WAP or traditional foods... all the weird stuff.. have done so because we were searching for a way to get better. We weren't healthy and needed answers. Our kids are probably more likely than the general population to have allergies. Healthy people don't go looking for a new way to do things the way we have. And most of us probably didn't discover traditional diets before we had kids. So our kids are the products of compromised nutrition. That right there increases their odds of having allergies. But I don't think she gets that.

And yet she does seem to get it, because of her stance on breastfeeding. I personally applaud it. I think we NEED a voice out there reminding us that what the mama eats does matter. The LLL and WHO have some dumb study showing that the mama's diet doesn't matter. It's quoted over and over and over. And it's bullspit. I know this from personal experience. Weak, low-fat, nutritionally-deplete milk sucks. I think my son would be healthier if I'd given him NT formula after the first few months. I have struggled for three years to ever make enough milk for him, he's never satisfied, nothing has seemed to work to help me make fattier milk or more milk... it just never worked. Also, my leaky gut from my undiagnosed celiac disease and other allergies caused him to get improperly-digested proteins in my milk... so he was exposed to all the same allergens he would have been with formula. Probably more, actually.

My point is... there are a LOT of things about a mama's milk that matter. Just like what the cow eats matters... none of us would want to drink raw milk from a grain-and-soy-fed cow, would we? We'd know that was trouble.

I've been interrupted by my son several times, so I think I'll just call this good.

Oh, wait... just wanted to mention that I think her hardcore "this is exactly what you should eat" (like the recommendations for pregnancy diet) are for the people who need them. I know I scoured the web during my first two pregnancies, searching for a list like that. I wanted to know exactly what I should be doing. Didn't mean I actually did it. I just wanted to know. LOL But some people need a stern teacher, smacking them on the knuckles to keep them in line. Especially when they are new to traditional foods and struggling to stay away from the Cheetos. I think anyone that doesn't need that much structure can easily take what they need and leave the rest.

Wow... I didn't see the other pages of this thread before I responded. The stuff about auto-immune diseases and inflammation and insufficient milk... wow. I need to learn more!

I do want to pick nits about just one more thing, too... I really challenge the idea that just because a mama CAN breastfeed, even on a diet of McMeals, then she should. And her milk will be absolutely better than any substitute. I just don't believe that. My kids seem to be proof. The immunity factors in breastmilk are fabulous. But there's a lot more to it than that. Trans fats in mama's diet make low-fat breastmilk. That means far fewer fat-soluble vitamins, the ones we know are crucial.
But it is interesting to learn about all of SF's biases on the topic.

SAHM of Kayla (11/98) Hunter (8/03) Jo (1/04) : Jared (2/05) Camelia (12/07) Hope/Chance (11/08) and Jack (12/09)
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#70 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 12:24 PM
 
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As an aside, Steiner did recommend breastfeeding but he recommended weaning before one. I *think* he recommends not breastfeeding past 8 months, but I don't remember off the top of my head, it could be younger. His spiritual science taught that to much of the mother's etheric essence, or something, passes to the baby if she keeps nursing too long. I've found many anthroposophists willing to modernize Steiner's teachings, but many are not. If she is an anthroposophist, she may be influenced by this teaching as well.
interesting that rudeulf Steiner didnt believe in bfing after 8 months, I am a waldorf graduate and from my memeory i think most of my friends who went to waldorf with me were nursed until they were well beyond 2 years, it was common for mothers to nurse there for 5 years each kid, maybe that was just our waldorf community?
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#71 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:15 PM
 
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sorry for typing nak .....really? any links? I had massive os 1st time-not as bad this time though and some issues w/ grains I'm trying to figure out.
I have a study I posted over on the PCOS thread. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=355

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#72 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:18 PM
 
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In regards to PCOS being auto-immune, I believe that many women who are diagnosed with PCOS actually have celiac. My PCOS symptoms resolved entirely with a gluten-free diet.

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#73 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:31 PM
 
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It historically presented with at least one other autoimmune disease...but apparently it is now becoming more clear that it can be a stand alone thing as well. It's hard to determine where one starts and another leaves off.
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#74 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:39 PM
 
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As far as the breastfeeding issue: Take what you like, and leave the rest. If you don't like what she has to say, don't do it. Why are you so offended? No one here is taking her advice anyway, are they?

Most women are intelligent, as you are, and I think they can make up their own minds what is best for their children. What SF says, is not always taken as gospel by everyone. Personally, I am surprised she stated this and I don't know why she would say this. I agree BF is better.

I think SF does a lot of good. She basically started the NT movement. She is an activist that provides lots of support for farmers in need. Especially those that have their goods raided and taken away and need legal support. This happens a lot, this happened to my farmer in Michigan.

She has beeen supporting Mark McAfee in California by sending out e-mail Action Alerts to influence legislators. Right now they are fighting to stop NAIS.

She runs the WAP foundation and they have wonderful meetings, local and nationwide. I love the local meetings, I learn a lot listening to their speakers.

I enjoy receiving the Wise Traditions quarterly journal with interesting articles and lists a directory of farmers. I especially enjoy the yearly Shopping Guide which lists the healthiest food sources.

I don't have a problem with her and never understood this great dislike of SF on this message board. I think her recipe book is fine, so far the recipes I have made have turned out good. I actually made a couple of recipes from Full Moon Feast that I didn't like.
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#75 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:45 PM
 
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As far as the breastfeeding issue: Take what you like, and leave the rest. If you don't like what she has to say, don't do it. Why are you so offended? No one here is taking her advice anyway, are they?
I'll answer this and then I am done with this thread because I have no interest in a debate.

Why am I offended? I am offended any time people give out wrong bf information, any time they do something that might sabotage a bf relationship.

It also completely destroys her credibility to be so wrong about something so wrong about something so basic and fundamental and important.

It is the same reason I won't take math lessons from someone who says 2+2=5.

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#76 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:46 PM
 
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As far as the breastfeeding issue: Take what you like, and leave the rest. If you don't like what she has to say, don't do it. Why are you so offended? No one here is taking her advice anyway, are they?
Why be offended? A) because it calls into serious question the quality of her scholarship on every other statement she makes in the book; B) she's one of the loudest people in the TF movement. If she's promoting an idea this stupid and dangerous, it makes us all look like fools.
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#77 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:54 PM
 
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As I stated , for my part it is only one of my issues. But I am in total agreement with all the pp's. It makes her look foolish and makes her work less credible.
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#78 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 01:56 PM
 
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In regards to PCOS being auto-immune, I believe that many women who are diagnosed with PCOS actually have celiac. My PCOS symptoms resolved entirely with a gluten-free diet.
:

Except for me, my symptoms are reversing on a gluten-free and grain free/low carb diet. I've been gluten-free almost two years but the changes on that alone were very minimum.
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#79 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 03:05 PM
 
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I haven't read all of the posts yet, but has anyone mentioned
Vilhjalmur Steffanson??

He is up there with Price, Pottenger and Aanjonus .
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#80 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 03:16 PM
 
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And fibromyalgia is not a "definite" auto-immune disease. Nobody really knows what causes it- there isn't any inflamation (which is common for auto-immune diseases). Beleive me, I know more about FMS than I'd like to know, having to live with it. "

Its often caused by pathogens. Which routine tests will not pick up.
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#81 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 04:13 PM
 
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And fibromyalgia is not a "definite" auto-immune disease. Nobody really knows what causes it- there isn't any inflamation (which is common for auto-immune diseases). Beleive me, I know more about FMS than I'd like to know, having to live with it.
Have you ever looked into food chemical sensitivity? That can cause fibromyalgia...www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com
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#82 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 05:43 PM
 
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:

Except for me, my symptoms are reversing on a gluten-free and grain free/low carb diet. I've been gluten-free almost two years but the changes on that alone were very minimum.
I agree- I do believe PCOS exists as its own disease, I just believe that there is some misdiagnosis going on since it's more well-known than celiac right now.

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#83 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 06:01 PM
 
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As an aside, Steiner did recommend breastfeeding but he recommended weaning before one. I *think* he recommends not breastfeeding past 8 months, but I don't remember off the top of my head, it could be younger. His spiritual science taught that to much of the mother's etheric essence, or something, passes to the baby if she keeps nursing too long. I've found many anthroposophists willing to modernize Steiner's teachings, but many are not. If she is an anthroposophist, she may be influenced by this teaching as well.
exactly! I think the orignial recs were to stop by 6 months and then it was extended to 9 months. Now, like you said, some are willing to modernize it and some are not.
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#84 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 06:06 PM
 
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interesting that rudeulf Steiner didnt believe in bfing after 8 months, I am a waldorf graduate and from my memeory i think most of my friends who went to waldorf with me were nursed until they were well beyond 2 years, it was common for mothers to nurse there for 5 years each kid, maybe that was just our waldorf community?
they are all different. the community near me is one of the world's largest and from what I've seen and heard they pretty strictly follow the letter of the law - and don't think bf is that good. They were pretty opposed to my friend wanting to bring her 6 mo old nursling to a lecture and couldn't understand why she couldn't stay with someone else - just as one example.
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#85 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 10:51 PM
 
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I too have mixed feelings about SF. I've met her and attended a talk and I really do think she is a great force in the TF movement. Even though I am a WAPF member, I HATE her bfing and infant nutrition recs.

I agree with the pp about the importance of a mother's diet and that LLL (yes, I'm a member) doesn't make that fact clear enough. I don't think I'd go so far as to say that some moms shouldn't bf if their diet isn't good enough, but who are we kidding: I'm SURE some of you have seen EBF babies with terrible bone development. I see bulging foreheads, narrow dental arches and long skinny faces all the time and that makes me sad. Breastmilk is amazing stuff, but it can be a poor source of A&D, Omega 3s, fat in general, and many other essential nutrients if mama doesn't eat well.

I keep my trap shut about the issues above because I think we need to become a breastfeeding-friendly culture FIRST. Many new moms feel intimidated enough by breastfeeding and to send the message that bm is only worth feeding your baby if you eat tons of raw dairy and liver (a horrific idea for most Americans) is a slippery slope indeed.

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#86 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 11:15 PM
 
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I agree that SF could have a little better attitude toward BF and a less critical stance towards LLL. However, as a Midwifery student, RN and mother of four children all breastfeed until 3.5 years of age..... I have to say scientifically and intuitively that the LLL opinion that nutrition does not matter and that a BF mother's milk is sound "no matter what she eats" is wrong. There is no way anyone will ever convince me that nutrition does not affect the quality of milk.
SF could be nicer about it- but LLL should encourage good, wholesome whole foods as well.
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#87 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 11:34 PM
 
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I too have mixed feelings about SF. I've met her and attended a talk and I really do think she is a great force in the TF movement. Even though I am a WAPF member, I HATE her bfing and infant nutrition recs.

I agree with the pp about the importance of a mother's diet and that LLL (yes, I'm a member) doesn't make that fact clear enough. I don't think I'd go so far as to say that some moms shouldn't bf if their diet isn't good enough, but who are we kidding: I'm SURE some of you have seen EBF babies with terrible bone development. I see bulging foreheads, narrow dental arches and long skinny faces all the time and that makes me sad. Breastmilk is amazing stuff, but it can be a poor source of A&D, Omega 3s, fat in general, and many other essential nutrients if mama doesn't eat well.

I keep my trap shut about the issues above because I think we need to become a breastfeeding-friendly culture FIRST. Many new moms feel intimidated enough by breastfeeding and to send the message that bm is only worth feeding your baby if you eat tons of raw dairy and liver (a horrific idea for most Americans) is a slippery slope indeed.

Ditto that. I am a LLL leader and can tell you from TONS of experience that women who would consider feeding a homemade formula are not generally the ones with poor diets, yk? The ones with SAD diets would either choose bf'ing or commercially prepared formula. If they knew enough to think hm formula was the best alternative, chances are they already know that they should have a high quality diet while pg/nursing.

FWIW, one of LLL's philosophy statements, which are at the core of everything we stand for is:

Good nutrition means eating a well-balanced and varied diet of foods in as close to their natural state as possible.

Not exactly TF or perfect, but it sure beats the recommendations the gov'ts of canada and the US give, with no real mention of processed vs unprocessed . . .

I have seen some unhealthy bfed kids, that's for sure. But, it has as much to do with the foods they feed their children once they start solids as it does with the mama's diet while bf'ing.

I could go on and on about the non nutritive benefits of bf'ing, but I'm guessing no one wants this to turn into a bf'ing debate

Amy
mama to big brother Mason (Jan '05) and the littles, Adam and Holden (May '10)
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#88 of 147 Old 02-13-2008, 11:43 PM
 
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I keep my trap shut about the issues above because I think we need to become a breastfeeding-friendly culture FIRST. Many new moms feel intimidated enough by breastfeeding and to send the message that bm is only worth feeding your baby if you eat tons of raw dairy and liver (a horrific idea for most Americans) is a slippery slope indeed.
I completely agree with you on this. I had a pretty good diet, but not great, with my first. I didn't know about this site, nor about TF yet, and I sure as heck didn't know a lot about BF'ing other than it was the best thing for the baby. Had I heard, however, that BM was worthless if my diet wasn't perfect, I would have quit BF'ing with my first, hands down. I went back to work at 12 weeks to a highly stressful environment. There also would have been no way I would have made a raw milk formula, so she would have gotten the regular stuff. Oh, and soy at that, because she was dairy intolerant.

I'm glad that I was ignorant at the time and worked hard to ensure she received BM exclusively.
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#89 of 147 Old 02-14-2008, 12:47 AM
 
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Attached2Mason wrote:

"Ditto that. I am a LLL leader and can tell you from TONS of experience that women who would consider feeding a homemade formula are not generally the ones with poor diets, yk? The ones with SAD diets would either choose bf'ing or commercially prepared formula."

ITA with this!!!! This is what makes WAPF's stance on BFing especially insane. The mothers who follow NT/WAP style eating should absolutely be feeding their babies all that superior bm. WAPF should also let people know that *frequent* nursings produce the highest-fat bm; babywearing and cosleeping are essential for producing superior bm, IMO.

The picture of a regular American mom exiting Walmart with her "phood" and then zipping over to her friendly raw dairy farmer for the base of baby's formula is ironic indeed.

Mama to two girls 12/05 and 8/09

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#90 of 147 Old 02-14-2008, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourgrtkidos View Post
I agree that SF could have a little better attitude toward BF and a less critical stance towards LLL. However, as a Midwifery student, RN and mother of four children all breastfeed until 3.5 years of age..... I have to say scientifically and intuitively that the LLL opinion that nutrition does not matter and that a BF mother's milk is sound "no matter what she eats" is wrong. There is no way anyone will ever convince me that nutrition does not affect the quality of milk.
SF could be nicer about it- but LLL should encourage good, wholesome whole foods as well.
Michelle
I was with you right up until the last sentence. LLL DOES encourage "a variety of foods in as close to their natural state as possible". But...is that enough?

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