Care to share how you feel about SF?? - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-09-2008, 01:44 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Ok - so "curiosity killed the cat":
I have been wondering for a while now why some people really seem to dislike Sally Fallon -
She is where I started in this whole TF walk, and since then I have branched out, but I wonder if any of her info is inherently BAD??
Thanks for any input...



PS.
OK now I am sure that I have ADD becuase I got so distracted by the smilies...Are these new ? - these are so cute...:
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:03 AM
 
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I loved NT when I first read it.

Then after a while her "caustic" attitude started to get to me. I posted y dislike of that on here.

But recently, I have done some serious reading. I looked into the Primal Diet and all the Aajonus Vanderplanitz stuff, and was intrigued. Looked into a lot of complimentary stuff. AND then.....

I found a fantastic Yahoo group called AVskeptics. It started out shwoing how narrow minded and what a fake Aajonus seems to be, but then it went from there to be a great resource of all good traditional fat research with a focus on not following any one "guru." The intelligence on this board is amazing. I highly suggest it - start from the old messages and work your way through.

But so back to SF, I have found from everything that I've been researching lately, SF hits the mark on everything. I'm so compatible with the way the science is presented. And I understand why she's so mad now. And also, NT doesn't seem so mad to me anymore, it just seems kinda blunt and European and nerdy. I wonder if SF is first generation or something.

ANyhow, not to write a book, but I really recommend the avskeptics yahoo group, and I really like Sally Fallon.
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:06 AM
 
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I don't dislike her, although I have seen that other people do.

She has a skewed (by MDC standards) viewpoint on breastfeeding, ie if your milk isn't up to par (by having a perfect TF diet), her homemade formulas are better than nursing. I do know that some people agree with this, some people don't. I think any breastmilk is better than none, even if you supplement as well.

She references using the "power of prayer" in your battle against the sweet tooth, which may sway non-religious folks.

I've never met her or heard her speak or anything. These two things are just from NT.

Perhaps someone has actually met her and could comment better.
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:20 AM
 
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My problem with her is two fold...I think her attitude stinks and I feel she is misrepresenting Price's original findings. I love WAP. I do not love the WAPF and by extension SF.

I read NT maybe 6 years ago and it is a good place to start for most. However once I read N&PD far more recently I got it. And felt there were some discrepancies.

Then there is the whole breastfeeding thing...but that's been mentioned.
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Old 02-09-2008, 04:49 AM
 
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I'd like to third the whole breastfeeding thing. Can I fourth it too? We don't need more people actively sabotaging breastfeeding.

I think it comes down to her own interpretation of a lot of things. Just like any subject out there, one shouldn't ever listen to just one person. Cause that one person could be crayzay! Or a genius. But it takes some sort of peer review to see.

And we're all different people. NT didn't seem to allow for that enough.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:20 AM
 
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I've said before that I think the animosity towards her comes from people with compromised guts. People with gluten/dairy problems who can't go TF straight away. I've been there, so speak from experience.

Also don't underestimate the power of propaganda. I see this with my husband. We've been hammered, misinformed and guilt induced for years about what is 'dangerous' for you and what is 'considered' healthy due to studies. Yeah right. No wonder there is so much controversy.

There is just one thing that I don't understand: the reaction I get to lacto-fermented vegetables. I get very painful muscle spasms! (thought to be lactic acidosis) when I eat a little bit for 2 days more. Does anyone know have the same reaction?

On the good side: I've been at one of her seminars and she strikes me as a very genuine and emotionally stable person. Someone who is a good role model to people who are sick and need help.
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:53 AM
 
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I have a problem with her recipes. Waaaay to many of them really stink. There is not a single recipe of hers that I have made that I was not able to improve upon easily.
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by firefaery View Post
My problem with her is two fold...I think her attitude stinks and I feel she is misrepresenting Price's original findings. I love WAP. I do not love the WAPF and by extension SF.

I read NT maybe 6 years ago and it is a good place to start for most. However once I read N&PD far more recently I got it. And felt there were some discrepancies.

Then there is the whole breastfeeding thing...but that's been mentioned.
newbie question- what is N&PD?

Chrissy, lucky mama to Noah (9), Lilah (6), Rowan (3) and Laney (1).
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:57 AM
 
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I think she's a very intelligent woman with a lot of guts. She is very brave for standing up and fighting for such a non PC way of eating/life and is willing to do the dirty work to help. I love that she shows up at local functions, like WAPF pot luck dinners, and was at our day to lobby our ocal legislators. She seems very genuine and caring.
On the other hand, I cannot actually bring myself to pay money to join any organization that gives out such awful breatfeeding information. It makes me so mad every time I think of it. There's just nothing TF about *not* breastfeeding. Isn't breastfeeding the original nourishing tradition, handed down from mother to mother for thousands of years?

mama to 4 boys, 2 kitties and 42 chickens
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:25 AM
 
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newbie question- what is N&PD?
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. Price's original findings.
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:27 AM
 
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I've said before that I think the animosity towards her comes from people with compromised guts. People with gluten/dairy problems who can't go TF straight away. I've been there, so speak from experience.
Not for me. I had issues with her before I ever thought about compromised guts. I do think that she gives skewed information and has an agenda. That's my big problem.
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Old 02-09-2008, 12:01 PM
 
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i dont know a lot about her, but when i read NT (which i like, dont get me wrong) i felt like it was disjointed and plain wrong in a lot of places. also, she is adamant about a few things, like pressure cooking (what does she say, like no self-respecting cook should own one?), and lax about buying storebought bread products to complement recipes. some recipes just casually add, serve with this or that from the store.

i wish i had my copy of NT here, because there were a few other things that riled me up about it.

anyway, i feel like TF is one of those things that is so intuitive there is no need for all the rules. science is great, but it is not god of everything. TF societies didnt require science, and neither do we. sometimes, IMO, it is used to justify things that are completely whack.

Hi, I'm Tabitha. I'm a homeschooling mother of four: ds (11) dd (9) ds (7) ds (5) And I'm expecting a fifth in 2014! Find me at http://www.omelay.blogspot.com
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Old 02-09-2008, 12:03 PM
 
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Okay, I am convinced that I need to read N&PD. I have heard that it is available for free online - anyone have a link?


Quote:
Originally Posted by firefaery View Post
I do think that she gives skewed information and has an agenda. That's my big problem.
I would love to hear a bit more about this if you have a chance.

Amy
mama to big brother Mason (Jan '05) and the littles, Adam and Holden (May '10)
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Old 02-09-2008, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks ladies for the fascinating insights...

[QUOTE=attached2mason;10500953]Okay, I am convinced that I need to read N&PD. I have heard that it is available for free online - anyone have a link?QUOTE]

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib.../pricetoc.html

Here is the link - I was able to get a copy from inter-library loan - It gave me a whole new persepctive on beauty - strange but now I want my kids to have broad noses and wide jaws - Of course they are 10 and 5 so I might be too late - but I can still make a mark-ed improvement in their health.

Bummer about SF on breasfeeding - I guess I skipped over this in NT, because I am already past this stage w/ my ds. NOTHING is better than breastfeeding!

We surely do not need another opponent - especially on friendly territory -:
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Old 02-09-2008, 02:02 PM
 
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I like her in that she got me started on the right road to nutrition with NT. I really believe deep down that I would not be where I am today and have all of this info in my arsenal if I had not read NT first. It kind of opened my eyes to other ideas of nutrition. That is just me. I was raised to believe that nutrition had nothing to do with health. It is nonsensical now when I think about it. I didn't think about the horrible diet that I consumed while preggo with my 1st that it would have any effect on my child's health. My mom always said that baby will develop in spite of the mother. Well, maybe, but how healthy is that development?

Anyways, my son does have health issues now. I wish I would have had NT way back then. SO, long story to say that I do like her for opening my eyes.

On the other hand, the BF thing always made me so mad. That and her implication that it should be her way or the highway. I don't think that is right. The attitude could turn some off to NT as a whole. It didn't me, but I am not everybody. Which leads me to my idea on Aajonus Vanderplanitz. I think he is spot on for the most part. However, I don't think that anyone has it ALL together. I think and believe strongly that you have to play around with diet and intolerances and allergies and supplements, etc until you get the diet that works best for you. No matter who promotes it. One thing I do like more about Aajonus Vanderplanitz is that he doesn't seem to be profiting much from what he does. At least not at the level that SF does. It just feels like his agenda is different. I could definitely be wrong. That is just my humble, not that educated opinion.

Ok, rant over

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Old 02-09-2008, 02:03 PM
 
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* Double post...oops!

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Old 02-09-2008, 08:05 PM
 
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Re: SF and profit . . .

I would love to know more about how she is profiting from her agenda . .. other than book sales and touring (or maybe that's enough, I imagine that makes her a pretty penny, although that is true of most well known authors). I am intrigued!! I am always wary of info that is created/sustained to produce profit . . ..

Amy
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Old 02-09-2008, 08:21 PM
 
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i know this thread is about SF but just want to add that i've read aajonus vonderplanitz books and i really liked them but he does seem to mention in one of them that if the mother isn't on an all healthy raw meat diet then it is better for the baby to be fed raw cows milk or homemade formula rather than be breastfed. i felt disappointed by that, because i don't think that there are very many nursing mothers that are only eating all raw, i am trying to transition to the primal diet but i am having to overcome alot of fear and squeamishness about the raw meat thing. so it will be a very slow process and i definitly have fear about raw meats and fish during pregnancy and nursing (even though this is probably an irrational fear if i'm to believe what aajonus says about raw animal products). just wanted to add that Sally fallon isn't the only one saying stuff about nursing! i personally enjoyed reading NT as it was definitly a useful book in my TF journey but i don't make many of the recipes because we eat really simple plain food as i don't have time to make anything too fancy unfortunatly so its usually meat either grilled, roasted or stewed and salad or veges!

momma4fun having found that yahoo group are you now not a fan of what aajonus says?

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Old 02-09-2008, 09:06 PM
 
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Lots to say and not much time to do it, so I'll be back for the rest...

Bluebell if you look at that group it is pretty good. They are anti-guru, as was stated. They (or *he* as the case may be) is opposed to anyone saying they have the answers. He's absolutely right. There is noone that I would follow blindly. I don't do the primal diet as it's written, but he has alot of good info to offer.

He does not like Aajonus' and gives reasons why...he does the same for many other folks and Fallon comes under fire too. I don't know of a diet personally that I don't have issues with as well. There is nothing so far that rings 100% true across the board. Ultimately I do think we are individuals and require unique diets....especially since we as a people have painted ourselves into a corner with respect to our health. We are coming from a very unbalanced place....but all of our issues are different-KWIM?

I think it's true that we have to be wary about being sheep and following information that is not to our highest good. I for the most part eat raw because it's working. If it stops doing so, rest assured that I will re-evaluate things as I have before. As always, there is no one way. You take what makes sense and works for you and leave the rest. I don't know that the Primal diet is a "rest of my life" kinda thing. But it certainly has changed my life in the here and now. If I only do it to heal then it still has had it's place.

FWIW I am not thrilled with the BFing advice from him as well....but he's not on a platform about "tradition." He also is not a woman. Those are two VERY big differences in my opinion. Fallon is all about "traditional foods and nourishment" and as someone stated earlier what could be more traditional? Also she herself had issues with breastfeeding which again, gives her an agenda. Given that it's a book about nutritional deficiencies you'd think she'd spend more time looking at the nutritional reasons behind her inability to breastfeed. If she can make the leap and claim that homosexuality is a result of malnutrition (which she does) then she can CERTAINLY also see that inability to produce milk is related to nutrition. (FWIW I am by no means in agreement with her about the homosexuality thing!) I just think that part is pathetic. I'm not saying she should be an expert in everything...but she pretty much elevated herself to guru status. In my mind it's her job to get the facts before spewing information.

The people that Price studied didn't have diets that looked like NT. Fallon takes elements of traditional diets and proclaims them all beneficial and throws them together not allowing for the fact that NONE of the traditional peoples would have had access to the vast majority of them. They ate balanced regional diets. Someone eating large amounts of grains wouldn't necessarily also be eating large amount of dairy or large amounts of animal meat etc. etc. etc. By throwing it all together you *could* be creating some serious issues. Price reported that all of the diets came out comparable in terms of nutrients which means that people were getting what they needed using local resources. We don't really know that because all these foods are "traditional" that it would be beneficial to use all of them without regard to proportions and amounts of nutrients-KWIM???
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Old 02-09-2008, 10:01 PM
 
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I love NT because it introduced me to TF and is a great reference book IMO.

That being said, I do agree with the pp that many of the recipes can so easily be improved upon. I think it depends tho on whether you like bland food or highly spiced food. I fall into the latter category for sure.

I did notice a lot of what she says has a spiritual bent to it that is strongly influenced by her anthroposophic associations. The "partner" book to NT on health and healing (can't remember what it's called) is based on anthroposophic medicine. Anthroposophy was the philosophy of Rudolf Steiner, founder of the Waldorf school. While I love much of Waldorf and implement a lot of it's ideas into our home, I personally disagree with most of the anthroposophic presupositions behind it. Also, a lot of the Waldorf/anthroposophy movement (tho not all) tends to be very euro-centric.

And yeah, I really can't stand what she says about breastfeeding which I think is more clear on the WAPF than in NT. It really bugs me that she considers LLL to be a negative institution just because they don't have the best nutrition advice in their book. Grrr....
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Old 02-10-2008, 02:12 AM
 
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We don't really know that because all these foods are "traditional" that it would be beneficial to use all of them without regard to proportions and amounts of nutrients-KWIM???
You hit the nail on the head here with what I felt was missing from NT. It just feels like such a mish-mash...where to start? I am reading the Maker's Diet right now and hoping that it will help me figure out the ratios of grains vs. raw vs. fats vs. fermented, etc. Now, if you want to talk about people making profits and elevating themselves to guru status (aaah-jordan rubin-choo!)...

I definitely want to check out that AV yahoo group.

***
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Old 02-10-2008, 08:23 AM
 
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Price reported that all of the diets came out comparable in terms of nutrients which means that people were getting what they needed using local resources. We don't really know that because all these foods are "traditional" that it would be beneficial to use all of them without regard to proportions and amounts of nutrients-KWIM???
interesting, i've been thinking and wondering about portion sizes and how often i eat certain foods. i guess nowdays in the modern world we have access and ability to eat so much more food than previously. i do worry about how much dairy i could consume now that i have easy access to raw dairy, perhaps the amounts i could eat on a daily basis wouldn't be healty (i don't know i'm just pondering this!).

i will definitly have to check out the AV group because i'm someone in my naivity and vulnerability for a 'cure' for my ailments will elevate anyone to 'guru' in my own mind if they seem to be confident in their ideas on healing. i do it with health practioners i consult and then if it dosn't 'work' then i'm so disappointed!!! especially if i'm investing lots of money in consultations and suppliments etc.
i need to trust myself and my own path a bit more - firefaery thanks for your post, it was very helpful.

also very interesting about sally fallon - i didn't know any of that stuff about her - great thread, thanks to the OP for starting it.

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Old 02-10-2008, 12:22 PM
 
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I am with a lot of the others on here, my dislike of SF firstly is with her horrible bf'ing info. Secondly I have a huge problem with how she totally ignores allergies. If you eat her perfect way than you are not supposed to have any problems and anyone with milk issues should just drink raw and be cured. Well, first of all many cultures Price studied didn't drink milk products- many others didn't have grains as such a huge focus and not such a wide variety. Plenty of us have issues with milk; raw or not. It annoys the piss out of me to have people say oh, just drink raw milk or soak your grains. I think that the TF diet she promotes may be better for the vast number of SAD dieters- however I think there are different diets for different people. I think there are many better "plans" out there.

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Old 02-10-2008, 05:37 PM
 
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I feel I have to defend AV somewhat, as I actually know him. He really wouldn't want to be anyone's guru as far as I can know. He is very much a take it or leave it kind of guy. He does have strong opinions and isn't shy to express them. He will tell you what he recommends, but he has nothing invested in whether you take his advice or not. If you saw him IRL, you would see whatever he is doing personally works, for a 60 something man he is in amazing health and vitality. Having said that, I don't think he has all the answers by any means, but as a healing diet, the Primal Diet, even used short term no doubt works to bring people into balance. But it isn't easy to sustain, so I think people start it, find it difficult to do day in and day out and so look for reasons to diss it. FF I agree with you on his breastfeeding stance. Actually, he isn't great on children, the Primal Diet, is really, really difficult for them. He is guy, who has never raised a child, he does have a son, but was never involved in his life at all until his son's accident. This past summer, he took one look at two of my children and said they were too thin! DD (almost 10 at the time) weighed around 70 lbs and DS (7 1/2) was about 55 lbs, and I would concede that he is thin, but both are extremely strong and healthy, with no health issues whatsoever.

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Old 02-10-2008, 05:39 PM
 
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yeah the breastfeeding thing in NT is so bizarre to me. I have studied many books and organizations recomendations on breastfeeding and from what i have gleaned even women who are malnourished to the point of daily hunger can breastfeed safetly and make enough milk for their children. it may not be perfectly balanced with omega fatty acids but it is breastmilk.

lots of women all over the world live in war zones and abject poverty and do breastfeed, and for these women it is much safer for them to breastfeed then use questionable or out right tainted water and formula that they cannot afford, or "weaning" cereals with this bad water that lead to diahreal illnesses and kill babies.

lots of sallys writing i love, but i find more inspiration from full moon feast for actual quality recipes. but i think sally fallon is a radical food hero, really! she has introduced so many beneficial ideas to at least some of the masses.
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Old 02-10-2008, 07:06 PM
 
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lots of sallys writing i love, but i find more inspiration from full moon feast for actual quality recipes.

what's that?
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Old 02-10-2008, 07:28 PM
 
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SF background on BF is colored by her own BF experience. She was unable to sustainably nurse any of her 4 kids (so she thinks that a lot of women have trouble...). I have experience on both sides- DS had horrible trouble (I had milk, but his health issues caused him to self wean at 4months...long story...lot of pumping...) and am happily nursing DD at 26mos! I know that women's milk is influenced by their diet and a TF momma makes good milk, but I think that there is sooooo much more to BF than momma diet. Bottom line (and this is from a lactavist- I'll whip it out in front of anyone ) is the health of the child and mom- if either is in jeopardy, then help and other alternatives should be sought. Sure, raw milk formula is way better than commercial, but women with nursing troubles should be seeking professional help to figure it all out (even if they are supplementing while getting it straight)

PS My guess is she had a latch problem or the kids were tongue tied...

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Old 02-10-2008, 09:10 PM
 
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If she can make the leap and claim that homosexuality is a result of malnutrition (which she does) then she can CERTAINLY also see that inability to produce milk is related to nutrition. (FWIW I am by no means in agreement with her about the homosexuality thing!) I just think that part is pathetic.
Back up, time out. Where does she say this???

I've aired my complaints about SF/WAPF a few hundred times on MDC. In a nutshell, I don't like the aggressive approach and sarcastic tone and BF info. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. There's a place to be mad, but I don't think it's all the time or in that way. Most of the website is written in that same tone, and is a complete turn-off. I think the mad is best directed at people who are also convinced, and not people who are new to the ideas.

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Old 02-10-2008, 11:38 PM
 
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Fallon takes elements of traditional diets and proclaims them all beneficial and throws them together not allowing for the fact that NONE of the traditional peoples would have had access to the vast majority of them. They ate balanced regional diets. Someone eating large amounts of grains wouldn't necessarily also be eating large amount of dairy or large amounts of animal meat etc. etc. etc. By throwing it all together you *could* be creating some serious issues. Price reported that all of the diets came out comparable in terms of nutrients which means that people were getting what they needed using local resources. We don't really know that because all these foods are "traditional" that it would be beneficial to use all of them without regard to proportions and amounts of nutrients-KWIM???
Yep, this is it exactly for me. The whole "Well, group 1 ate X and group 2 ate Y and group 3 ate Z, so you should eat X, Y, and Z every day." Except that none of the foods are available on the same continent, and some of the foods were not available year round and others were available in limited amounts. And Group 1 had been eating X for 2000 years, and group 2 had been eating Y for 3000 years, and group 3 and been eating Z from a different breed of animal than is commercially available in the US.

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Old 02-11-2008, 12:14 AM
 
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I feel I have to defend AV somewhat, as I actually know him. He really wouldn't want to be anyone's guru as far as I can know. He is very much a take it or leave it kind of guy. He does have strong opinions and isn't shy to express them. He will tell you what he recommends, but he has nothing invested in whether you take his advice or not. If you saw him IRL, you would see whatever he is doing personally works, for a 60 something man he is in amazing health and vitality. Having said that, I don't think he has all the answers by any means, but as a healing diet, the Primal Diet, even used short term no doubt works to bring people into balance. But it isn't easy to sustain, so I think people start it, find it difficult to do day in and day out and so look for reasons to diss it. FF I agree with you on his breastfeeding stance. Actually, he isn't great on children, the Primal Diet, is really, really difficult for them. He is guy, who has never raised a child, he does have a son, but was never involved in his life at all until his son's accident. This past summer, he took one look at two of my children and said they were too thin! DD (almost 10 at the time) weighed around 70 lbs and DS (7 1/2) was about 55 lbs, and I would concede that he is thin, but both are extremely strong and healthy, with no health issues whatsoever.

ITA with everything here. He clearly (if you read his book) is not invested at all in the whole guru thing. It's very clear that he's telling his story and he never EVER makes any effort to suck people in. He says what has worked in his experience. It's a VERY different tone than other books I've read, NT included.

I get the whole thing about kids, and that is why I was able to skip it. I have a much bigger issue with Fallon's stance as I said.

His diet is not easy, but I'll tell you what, it has changed my life. Does that mean it will change anyone else's? Not sure. Again, all I can say is what has worked for me. I would encourage anyone embarking on a new journey to do so armed with information and do what is right for them. It's never smart to follow anything with blind faith. We are able to think critically for a reason. We all have intuition for a reason.
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