Reading "Nourishing Traditions" - when is it wrong? - Mothering Forums

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Old 02-10-2008, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'm just learning about TF and have started reading Nourishing Traditions. On this board i've occasionally seen references to errors in the book, and i wonder if those of you who know more can let me know ahead of time where this book goes wrong?

It does seem to be making a lot of sense, but i get a little suspicious when some of the footnotes have her own name on them...

thanks!
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Old 02-10-2008, 07:16 PM
 
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I don't know a lot, but I despise the fact that breastfeeding is only recommended for 1 year with a goal of 6months! Ugh- even WHO says 2yrs min and if you're reading NT and persuing a TF lifestyle then IMO the longer the better!!!!! (she feels most BF moms are making inferior milk because of their nutritional status...)

Don't get me started...

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Old 02-10-2008, 09:21 PM
 
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About the only thing I've felt was "wrong" with her book is that some of the recipes didn't work out so great, and other cookbooks (Wild Fermentation comes to mind) may be better choices for selecting recipes.

I also strongly disagree with Sally Fallon about breastfeeding. I have no problems with her recomendation for homemade infant formula if supplementation is needed or BF isn't possible at all. However, SF seems to be unable to separate her own personal experiences with BF(she was a low supply mama) from general recomendations about infant feeding. Not all babies will do well with her schedule for introducing solids, although her suggestions will work well for SOME babies, (for example: hers.)

I also disagree with any recomendation that involves "everybody must have X amount of this particular food" without giving alternatives for those who don't tolerate that particular food. I don't have any problems with more general recomendations such as "if you're going to eat grains, prepare them this way" or "if you're going to have dairy products, they should be raw and/or cultured" or "if you eat meat, be sure to include organ meats and bone broths."

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Old 02-10-2008, 10:12 PM
 
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What I think is odd is that she goes on and on about not using vegetable oil and not heating olive oil too much yet so many of the recipes call for cooking in olive oil at relatively high temp. That and the breastfeeding advice is wack.

Other than that, it's a good jumping-off point and has fun anecdotes and book excerpts.
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Old 02-10-2008, 10:15 PM
 
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Many people complain the recipes in the book are either too bland or too French. And quite a few don't turn out right.

DOn't get me started about the nursing issue. I was removed as a chapter leader for daring to question her over it.

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Old 02-10-2008, 10:56 PM
 
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DOn't get me started about the nursing issue. I was removed as a chapter leader for daring to question her over it.
Dang, really?

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Old 02-10-2008, 11:00 PM
 
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Dang, really?
I'm not the only one.

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Old 02-11-2008, 01:32 AM
 
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I tried addressing the breastfeeding issue with WAP as well. She is completely rigid and uncompromising on this. No amount of more recent evidence and data will get her to bend. The stuff on the WAP website is horrific! I have declined repeated encouragements to become a WAP member (author lives right near here) until this bad breastfeeding info on the website is changed!

I did use the homemade goat milk formula recipe for my fourth child as a supplement when she (a 31 week preemie) came home from the NICU and after a month her weight gain dropped off a bit (even though I had tons of milk and she nursed very well) for a few weeks, but frankly the baby fought me on it as it tastes pretty gross.
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:35 AM
 
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that is INSANE



I mean... is this the Westone A. Price Foundation or the Sally Fallon foundation?














That said... I think the idea that 90% can produce enough milk with the right support is also wack. i have seen my best friend restore her health through 3 pregnancies and seen her supply and breastfeeding enjoyment and success increase through her 3 kids. I know ppl, I am sure we all do with low supply who really want it, and work way harder than others who succeed do, at establishing a breastfeeding relationship. It seems absurd to need to say that low supply is biological.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
 
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oh, yeah, i did peruse the "babies" chapter, and decided to ignore the whole thing. silly. scary. and that's shocking that some of you have been sanctioned for daring to correct her!
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Old 02-11-2008, 12:35 PM
 
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I also find it interesting that the woman she chose to write a lot of the children's health information including the stuff on nursing adopted her only child, and so she "couldn't possibly have nursed."

There are IBCLCs and midwives and all sorts of experienced, knowedlgeable women within the WAPF and they pick someone who has no clinical or personal experience to write the articles.

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Old 02-11-2008, 01:41 PM
 
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I also find it interesting that the woman she chose to write a lot of the children's health information including the stuff on nursing adopted her only child, and so she "couldn't possibly have nursed."
Well, actually she COULD have nursed!!! Probably would have needed an SNS for supp if the baby was an infant, but as the child aged and solids were introduced she could have gone without that, too! Induced lactation is a real possibility for those who wish to persue, KWIM? So even that statement seems kinda ill informed on her part...

Sorry you were removed as a chapter leader Especially since you have GREAT TF experience and yummy recipies!!!!

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Old 02-11-2008, 01:47 PM
 
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Oh, I know. I'm studying to become an IBCLC and have helped a ouple of women induce lactation. I'm quoting someone else when I say that.

I didn't even go there at that point, because I figured choosing her was their way of deflecting any potential criticism, not realizing that their statment in and of itself could become an issue. At that point, I had bigger fish to fry in the conversation.

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Old 02-11-2008, 02:15 PM
 
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Batsoup--I highly recommend that you read Weston Price's book so you can get info directly from the source.

KerryAnn--I cannot believed that you were removed. I am sure the people in your area were totally disappointed. I don't even know what to say

Jen

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Old 02-11-2008, 03:10 PM
 
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I mean... is this the Weston A. Price Foundation or the Sally Fallon foundation?
Sally Fallon founded it decades after Price's death apparently after having a rift with the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation (which has actual ties to Price). She owns New Trends Publishing, the publishing company for NT, Whole Soy Story, etc. The foundation now receives upwards of a million bucks in member dues and should use a dollar or two of that to tool up on infant feeding issues.

On NT, besides what has been mentioned, how much saturated fat is healthful? Can there be too much of a good thing? The answer to that question is usually "yes." It's probably "yes" in this case too. So how much is too much? I'd like to see a buck or three on that topic as well.

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Old 02-11-2008, 03:32 PM
 
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Sally Fallon founded it decades after Price's death apparently after having a rift with the Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation (which has actual ties to Price). She owns New Trends Publishing, the publishing company for NT, Whole Soy Story, etc. The foundation now receives upwards of a million bucks in member dues and should use a dollar or two of that to tool up on infant feeding issues.
Ah, yes, member dues. Hadn't thought about that nifty little revenue stream. I am officially suspicious

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On NT, besides what has been mentioned, how much saturated fat is healthful? Can there be too much of a good thing? The answer to that question is usually "yes." It's probably "yes" in this case too. So how much is too much? I'd like to see a buck or three on that topic as well.
I have often wondered this as well. Sometimes it seems like her motto is "more is more", yk? I'm all for butter, but come on now . . . although that too is situation specific. Maybe some need lots and others need a little. I have been following the added fat rec's in Garden of Eating (I think they say 2 tbsp of added fat) and eating grassfed beef which should be lower in sat fat.

I know this sounds incredibly lazy, but sometimes I get tired of all the research, not knowing who to believe, and just wish that someone would tell me what to eat so I could stop obsessing about food . Not to mention drop the extra 30lbs clinging to my frame .

Glad to hear so much dissent from her bf'ing info. I have often wondered how others on this board felt about that. It made me so angry that it kept me away from TF for a whole year after I found out about it. I spent that time as a vegan a la Eat to Live. Gosh, I wish I had looked at some different TF stuff first and saved myself that time! As LLL leader, I was just soooooo angry, on so many levels. Glad to hear others feel the same!

Amy
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Old 02-11-2008, 03:57 PM
 
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WAPF publishes their financial information on their website. I believe since they're a non-profit, it has to be public.

So Sally receives a salary from WAPF, she wholey owns New Trends publishing, and she get speaker fees from the conferences she speaks at and the appearances she makes. Beyond that, I don't know anything about the farmer legal defense funds, the raw milk campaigns, and anything else she's involved in or on the board of that also generates income. I don't believe it is wrong, in and of itself, to get paid for what she's doing, my concern becomes how that money influences her positions within the non-profit. I fully believe that the raw milk money combined with her personal experience is influencing her stance on the formula. I've heard more than one person say "Sally saved my baby's life with her raw milk formula, so I donated $X,000 to the foundation." I don't think Sally really sees how many people aren't joining and contributing over the nursing issue, which was why I started the petition drive in the first place- to show her how many people would join. She very much sees it as an 'us vs them' issue, in a way very different from what we view it. She sees any pro-breastfeeding talk as being synonymous with squelching the raw milk formula info, even when you're very up front with saying you still believe it should be available. She views changing the articles, even if you don't eliminate any formula info, as squelching the formula. She's got a huge wall up that many have tried to get through. I know quite a few close to her who bang their heads over it regularly.

We do have to consider that Sally is in her 60's, so raising children isn't on her radar scope like it is ours- how many people have we heard say that the glossed over the baby feeding issues when looking at the information, because they weren't in that stage of their lives? I think she views raw milk advocacy as being much more worth her time and effort, so that people have access to the formula.

Sally is very much a type-A, needs everything quantified, not very relaxed or trusting in the process, type of person. She was nursing in a time period where many women failed because they were told to 'nurse X times a day for X minutes on each side and no more.' I'm not really comfortable saying more than that about it, but I believe her failure was contributed to on many sides, and wasn't soley a lack of milk.

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Old 02-11-2008, 03:58 PM
 
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And I should say that I whole heartedly support joining the PPNF in lieu of the WAPF, for the sole reason of the nursing issue.

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Old 02-11-2008, 04:48 PM
 
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I don't believe it is wrong, in and of itself, to get paid for what she's doing, my concern becomes how that money influences her positions within the non-profit.
My concern exactly.

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Old 02-11-2008, 04:51 PM
 
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Ppnf?
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Old 02-11-2008, 05:20 PM
 
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Yeah I would basically trash everything that has to do with feeding infants & young children -- BFing, when and what to introduce re: solids, etc. I mean, it's really a lot of terrible advice.
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Old 02-11-2008, 05:30 PM
 
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Ppnf?
Price-Pottenger nutrition Foundation. http://www.ppnf.org/catalog/ppnf/

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Old 02-11-2008, 06:18 PM
 
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(x-posted) This may not be a popular post but I feel it is important to say that genetic low supply DOES exist. I have insufficient glandular tissue resulting in chronic low supply. I have tried everything (really), I am very educated, come from a very probreastfeeding family/community/part of the country and I use a SNS and have for the almost 6 mo.s of DS's life. The raw milk formula saved us from having to use the awful dried milk formula mixes. I do think breast is best but more for the bonding and hormone exchange than for nutrition. Cows and goats are lower on the food chain and generally are less exposed to the fat soluable toxins humans are, if they are healthy and grass fed they are eating what makes their bodies healthiest (you can't say that for most humans) and when buying best quality ingredients I agree with SF that the formula is probably (strictly from a nutritional standpoint) better. I know that breastfeeding doesn't need any more bad press but I think that SF assumes that people reading her book probably have a working understanding of nutrition and can separate their politics from the info she's providing. Also, having low supply I can speak to the alienation that those of us who can't breastfeed feel from those of you who can and who insist what is happening to us does not exist. It does and it was really helpful to find support in NT.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:03 PM
 
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^^ Yes, but I wish SF could be pro-homemade formula and breastfeeding simultaneously. And that she would advocate nursing past a year, or even if someone else writing an article in the WAPF journal would do so, maybe someone giving child feeding advice.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:29 PM
 
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Ah, yes, member dues. Hadn't thought about that nifty little revenue stream. I am officially suspicious



I have often wondered this as well. Sometimes it seems like her motto is "more is more", yk? I'm all for butter, but come on now . . . although that too is situation specific. Maybe some need lots and others need a little. I have been following the added fat rec's in Garden of Eating (I think they say 2 tbsp of added fat) and eating grassfed beef which should be lower in sat fat.

I know this sounds incredibly lazy, but sometimes I get tired of all the research, not knowing who to believe, and just wish that someone would tell me what to eat so I could stop obsessing about food . Not to mention drop the extra 30lbs clinging to my frame .
I hear you! Its hard to know whats right anymore.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:29 AM
 
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I use WAP-y principles when I make recipes now, so I no longer follow the ones in NT.

I also try to follow the Optimal Diet's ratio of fat to protein to carbs.

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I have been following the added fat rec's in Garden of Eating (I think they say 2 tbsp of added fat) and eating grassfed beef which should be lower in sat fat.
Well actually, you shouldn't be eating too much of the muscle meats, and more of the organs (which contain a ton of fat).

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just wish that someone would tell me what to eat so I could stop obsessing about food
Don't obsess! Just eat as much whole foods as possible and enjoy your food! :

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Old 02-12-2008, 12:32 PM
 
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^^ Yes, but I wish SF could be pro-homemade formula and breastfeeding simultaneously. And that she would advocate nursing past a year, or even if someone else writing an article in the WAPF journal would do so, maybe someone giving child feeding advice.
She will tell you up-front that 95% of the WAPF women nurse without problems. My response was, 'so then why is 90% of the literature on the website about the formula?'

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