My frequently-sick NT toddler - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-29-2008, 09:24 AM
 
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And traditional foods didn't prevent all this, either. My great grandmother grew up on a farm, the daughter of fairly well-off German immigrant farmers. She was tall and strong and healthy as a horse and into my childhood memory told stories of all the good milk and eggs they ate on the farm when she was growing up. And she had awful "hay fever" as she called it, every year.

My other great grandmother, a French Canadian farmer's daughter, had asthma (and the recommended remedy at the time? Smoking some plant rolled into herbal cigs!)

My grandfather was born the year after his parents came here from the Netherlands, where they lived on good milk, cheese, eggs, and fish ... and he had awful, awful, seasonal allergies.

I have pictures of all these relatives - they were all tall and well formed with faces right out of WAP pictures. Great teeth that they kept into their 80s, straight bites, whole nine yards). But horribly, horribly allergic to their surroundings.
The point I was trying to make is that many people are not suited to dairy, regardless of it's form, many are not suited for wheat either. Many, many cultures consumed neither until very recent history. SF just totally skips that part of his work and puts out the lie if you have the right stuff prepared just the right way that everything will be perfect there are no allergies. Of course it could have nothing to do with their diet.

Happily Married to my : 11 yrs- Mama to wild-eyed monkey boy 7-04, fiery little girl 4-07, and the happy smiley baby that sleeps 11-09!
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Old 04-29-2008, 03:14 PM
 
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The point I was trying to make is that many people are not suited to dairy, regardless of it's form, many are not suited for wheat either. Many, many cultures consumed neither until very recent history. SF just totally skips that part of his work and puts out the lie if you have the right stuff prepared just the right way that everything will be perfect there are no allergies. Of course it could have nothing to do with their diet.
Oh, I totally get that and was agreeing! It seems like SF's argument is that "If dairy makes you sick its because you and your mom and your grandma all ate crap."

So the SF argument goes first "If you eat perfectly, there are no allergies."

And someone says "I've followed you to the letter for years and I feel like crap."

And then the response is "Well, its because your ancestors passed on this nutritional state to you. They ate badly so you suffer."

Except my ancestors ate the way SF tells people to eat (minus, of course, all the funky foods that would have been totally foreign, like coconut oil and such), and yet my family history research has shown that .... they had allergies. They had cancer and heart disease and infertility, too. Because nothing is a miracle cure-all.

savithny, 42 year old moderate mom to DS Primo (age 12) and DD Secunda (age 9).

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Old 04-30-2008, 10:05 PM
 
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Wow, I'm really surprised to hear that so many people have gotten the message from NT/SF that you can eat anything if it's prepared properly. I'm new to this, and admittedly still very optimistic, but when I read NT, I see all kinds of mentions of allergies and options to avoid dairy if sensitive, wheat if sensitive, etc. I heard SF speak in person before I bought NT, and she also mentioned allergies and even brought up some food intolerances she has herself, like egg whites, that she takes care to limit in her own diet.

Back to the OP--I totally understand your feeling of guilt. I would submit that things would likely be much worse had you not been on a healthy diet. The problem in the choices we make is that we can never know what the alternative would have been.

You've done great for your kid! I strongly second what others have said about wheat or dairy allergies--and not to totally trust the food sensitivity panel if it doesn't make sense. It's great that you are trying to figure it out for him now, so that he doesn't have to suffer through childhood in poor health until he's old and wise enough to figure it out for himself.
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:30 PM
 
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I'm kinda surprised that so many people (not talking about specific people here, so don't feel bad!) take the "nutrition fixes everything" tack when talking traditional foods and people. I can understand the reasons why WAPF promotes this--it's similar to the reasons why LLL says that diet does not matter for breastfeeding. Otherwise, people would get discouraged and not try at all, which is not what you want. And of course, good nutrition does fix a LOT of things right off the bat. However, in trying to fix long-term problems, you need more time.

When Pottenger did his studies on degeneration on cats, he found that it took three generations of a perfect diet before problems of degeneration were fixed and healthy offspring produced. Three generations! And we're expecting to fix generations of problems in one lifetime here? Narrow palates are not going to magically widen if you eat well, because some things are just set from conception. Also, we are dealing with a lot of environmental pollution, as well as massive soil nutrient depletion, and also lifestyle/exercise changes from people who lived more wild than we "civilized" people do now.

My DD had major teeth problems due to my poor diet during conception and early nursing. We switched over to a TF diet which stopped the decay for the most part and fixed a whole bunch of other issues, but I am expecting that I (and she) will have to be very diligent about what she eats for the rest of her life due to her poor start. Some things are still not fixed, like gut issues/allergies. Hopefully her offspring will be better off than she is, and her grandchildren will hopefully be even better. All I can do is to make the most of what she has, and not beat myself up about the things that I can't change.

Hopefully that makes sense, I've been a bit distracted lately...just wanted to add that I totally hear you and don't feel like a failed mama! You are doing great!
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:48 PM
 
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Narrow palates are not going to magically widen if you eat well, because some things are just set from conception. !
I don't know that that's necessarily true. IIRC N&PD has some pictures showing how kids' palates would widen, or at least showing that one kid in a family could have a totally different palate width than the next based on the mother's diet. Also, JaneS has posted some before-and-after pictures of her DS and his palate and facial structure changed dramatically due to an NT-style diet.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:19 PM
 
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I don't know that that's necessarily true. IIRC N&PD has some pictures showing how kids' palates would widen, or at least showing that one kid in a family could have a totally different palate width than the next based on the mother's diet. Also, JaneS has posted some before-and-after pictures of her DS and his palate and facial structure changed dramatically due to an NT-style diet.
I think the second thing you said is what I recall from N&PD, that the palate width can change with a change in the mother's diet for the next child. Dr. Price also did some work with surgical widening of palates. But it is my very humble opinion that what is set in the womb is just set, and the diet/environment after birth is what dictates how well you reach that mark. So if your family is eating poorly after the babe is born or if there are gut issues, then that babe will continue to degenerate and never get to that conception-set mark. But if your family eats well and everyone is generally healthy, then babe will reach the optimal of what it can.

As far as JaneS's babe is concerned, there is no way for me to say one way or another what exactly contributed to a change in palate and facial structure. I am just a simple monkey. Was it just nutrition? Was it that they were just fulfilling what was set at conception? It's all very complicated, and I also have heard rave reports about using things like cranial osteopathy to manipulate bones. As we all know, everyone is different and what works for one does not necessarily work for another and once we as parents can accept this then we can move past the guilt and work for the betterment of our future generations. Hope that makes sense.
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Old 05-03-2008, 05:41 AM
 
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I think the main problem lies with trying to follow one guru's advice. To be honest, I doubt that one person is the end-all, know-all of anything, much less nutrition.
Also, we have to remember is that many of these traditional societies deal with problems that our paleolithic ancestors never had to. Archaeologically speaking, pre-agriculture people were taller, in better health, and had less dental caries than agricultural people. So even though there are 10,000 years between most of us and our pre-agricultural ancestors, we share an incredibly similar genetic make-up.

What I'm trying to say is that there is more to health than just nutrition. Our pre-agricultural ancestors also had a lot more free time and less back-breaking labor than our agricultural ancestors. And a much wider variety of plant and animal foods in their diets. And those probably had a lot more nutrients than their domesticated varieties. Etc, etc, etc.

Oh, and Fallon's dependence on dairy products, I believe, is dumb. Most of the world (like 85%) cannot digest lactose past early childhood. Except for very few traditional societies (outside of northern Europe), most people did not even consume fermented dairy products at all. This, to me, points to the fact that one can be very, very healthy on a traditional diet without consuming dairy. It all has to do with ancestral background. I am Greek, and the gene for post-childhood lactose production is low in Mediterranean areas. If you actually look at the traditional cuisine of Italy, Spain, and Greece, very little of it uses dairy. Those that do come from specific regions that were home to pastoralists who had the lactose-gene in larger quantities.

And just because the majority of a population does not seem to be suffering from allergies, does not mean that no one does. It's all about a bell curve.

So please, please don't feel bad that your little one has allergies. One of the things I am finding out about being a mom is how little control I really do have. One can do everything right, and still not get the desired outcome. Life, fortunately & unfortunately, is not math, so 2+2 doesn't necessarily equal 4.

Sending you lots of big, virtual (((((HUGS))))). Having a sickness-prone little one is very, very difficult.

Ami

Wife to dh, Mommy to my heavenly angel, J (06), and my earthly angels, S (07) and E (10)

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Old 05-03-2008, 02:31 PM
 
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As far as JaneS's babe is concerned, there is no way for me to say one way or another what exactly contributed to a change in palate and facial structure. I am just a simple monkey. Was it just nutrition? Was it that they were just fulfilling what was set at conception? It's all very complicated, and I also have heard rave reports about using things like cranial osteopathy to manipulate bones. As we all know, everyone is different and what works for one does not necessarily work for another and once we as parents can accept this then we can move past the guilt and work for the betterment of our future generations. Hope that makes sense.
Yes, I totally agree, who knows for sure. When I posted that I was so happy something seemed to be working for us (speaking as a mama with a child with multiple and severe allergies... everything else was going to pot!) I am trying so hard to "fix" DS and there are some things which will probably never get fixed. Accepting that is very hard but absolutely necessary. It's not like you can have a control child cloned.

I also know a child with a fantastic NT diet, no allergies, lots of raw milk, but a narrow palate. I think you are right, development is a confluence of nutrition, genetics... and perhaps digestive health as well? It's said that it's impossible to change a person's initial gut flora, perhaps that is another key to the allergic question or why other people seemingly eat "perfect" diets and still have allergies? No doubt my grandmother eating hot fudge sundaes every night when pg with my father is still exerting it's cascading influence on us!

Bone manipulation is a good point... mouth breathers will have a narrower palate b/c the tongue doesn't press against the roof of the mouth regularly.

I will say also as an aside to mamas suspecting allergies: most tests are meaningless. Trust me, we've had upteen number of them with different results. Only the very hard work of observation and control will tell you for sure if your child has a sensitivity/allergy/intolerance, whatever you want to call it. Having been through this a long time, I agree with the other posters that your DS, MommaMoo, is probably suffering from allergies.

I'll also stick in my current overarching principle: it is possible to eat well and still have deficiencies due to malabsorption/gut health or previous severe deficiency that is still not being overcome. Perhaps the person needs so much more than the standard TF 'perfect' diet to restock depleted stores. Such as zinc and vitamin D, both of which would impact the immune system greatly. I always remember that the native populations were still eating 10x fat soluble vits and 5x minerals/water soluble vits even though they had been eating that way their entire lives. Now add that maybe it's totally impossible these days to even do that given most people's access to nutrient dense food and enough cash to pay for it, or energy to grow it... and our depleted soils. We strive to do the best we can and that's all we can do. A lot of it is educated guessing.

I feel badly for Sally F. that she is sometimes knocked for impressions that she gives that might not exactly be what she is trying so hard to get across. Happens to me a lot too when I'm really just trying to be helpful.
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Old 05-03-2008, 02:38 PM
 
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Narrow palates are not going to magically widen if you eat well, because some things are just set from conception.
Just to clarify my mention above: Pottenger did studies in his clinic with diet changes resulting in palate changes in growing children. I mentioned it in that previous thread of mine on my DS's palate. Of course I always think now he (and Price's experiments on children) never had to deal with 50 years of antibiotic manipulated gut flora and perhaps that's why that method was much more straightforward and successful...?
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Old 05-03-2008, 03:06 PM
 
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Hi JaneS! How is your DS doing now?

I've really struggled to come to the same conclusion as you have--some things are just not fixable (see my siggy!). I'm just hoping that my next baby will be healthier.
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Old 05-04-2008, 05:09 PM
 
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I have to disagree with this--at least for me, I still had cramps even after months on a very low salicylate diet. Magnesium gets rid of my cramps very quickly, so it appears that mine are due to a magnesium deficiency. But then, I'm not sensitive to salicylates so perhaps for those who are, they can cause cramps.
That's very interesting. I suffer from horrible cramps each month. What type of magnesium supplement should I look for?

Also, can anyone explain this salicylate theory to me? I've never heard of it before. I thought menstrual cramps were due to an imbalance of omega 3 vs. omega 6.
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Old 05-04-2008, 07:14 PM
 
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That's very interesting. I suffer from horrible cramps each month. What type of magnesium supplement should I look for?

Also, can anyone explain this salicylate theory to me? I've never heard of it before. I thought menstrual cramps were due to an imbalance of omega 3 vs. omega 6.
I don't think it matters. Epsom salt baths are a good way to get a fair amount of magnesium into you without having to worry about bowel tolerance.

Salicylates are a pesticide that most plants produce. Different foods have varying amounts--most grains have none, fruits and veggies have amounts ranging from none to very high, herbs and spices are generally very high, honey is very high, almonds are pretty high, coconut oil and EVOO are high. Basically everyone has to detoxify salicylates through the liver, and everyone has a finite capacity to detox them. Some people have genetically lower enzyme capacity and are sensitive to lower amounts, in some cases to virtually any amount, of salicylates. Salicylate sensitivity can cause a very wide range of health problems, from digestive problems to "allergy symptoms" to chronic health problems like fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue (as can other naturally occurring food chemicals like amines and glutamates). Here's a couple of links
www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info
www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com
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Old 05-08-2008, 09:13 PM
 
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Hi JaneS! How is your DS doing now?

I've really struggled to come to the same conclusion as you have--some things are just not fixable (see my siggy!). I'm just hoping that my next baby will be healthier.
He's doing really great as long as we stick w/ limited diet. Which sucks, but at least it's figured out for now and he's sleeping, growing, etc. all I can pray for is immune system maturation at age 6-7 will produce some changes.
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:58 PM
 
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i've pretty much come to the same conclusion- that a TF will not cure all. this was a hard pill for me to swallow and sometimes i do feel angry about how much energy/time/emotion/money i'm spending, yet my dd still has major gut issues. like JaneS's son, dd is pretty healthy when we eat our limited diet + ridiculous amount of supplements. but of course i really really want to cure her and i and be able to eat like others.

but, i also know that if i did not go through all this effort, she would be much worse off. the gut issues would exacerbate, her behavior would be crazy, her skin would look terrible, and she just wouldn't be developing as well. she'd get sick with colds again. i think maybe her shyness would be even stronger. and her teeth, which were starting to decay before TF, would continue on their path to becoming cavities.

the notion that TF cures all is definitely not true in our household. but, there is still much value in eating TF, and that's why i continue to do it despite it all.

i also wanted to agree with other posters about allergy symptoms becoming amplified when you are healthier. i no longer have chronic fatigue and chronic sinus pain. but now when i eat something i'm allergic to, i get immediate and intense feedback from my body. i guess that is the trade off for improved health. i try to see it as a good sign that i'm on the right track.
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Old 05-09-2008, 03:01 PM
 
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to the OP: my dd gets allergy shiners too. or i should say she used to. we've been off grains (all grains, including rice and corn) for a couple of months now and the shiners are way reduced. they do pop up from time to time, mildly, when we eat highly phenolic foods like berries. but it is no longer a chronic thing.

if i were you, i would keep a food journal, also noting the reactions. pretty soon you'll have a better idea of what is causing the allergies.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We finally got ds's food sensitivity results. He is sensitive to 26 different foods! 26! Interestingly, most of them are foods he doesn't eat, anyway. He showed allergic to many grasses, like oats and amaranth. DP has allergies to grasses, too. DS has a low level sensitivity to wheat and milk, but not cheese. I don't understand how cheese can be ok when milk isn't. Apparently, bananas are more of a problem for him than milk or wheat. Tomatoes and all citrus fruits are also out. Thankfully, he can still eat eggs and meats. I'm pretty sure ds also has yeast. His poops are all messed up, and his digestion is bad. Motocita, what supplements do you give your dd? I'm doing CLO, acidophilus, enzymes, and gut-soothing herbs. I still have no real idea what to feed ds on a regular basis. He can't have any bread products unless I make him some rice bread. We like to eat out sometimes, but now that's impossible.
I don't think that NT had a lot to do with ds's food problems. The problem with grasses is probably just genetic, and ds's doc said that bananas are a common food for kids to have problems with. In our case, they are so convenient that we probably overdid it. If anyone has any good cookbooks or recipes to share, I'd love to read them. I got the Whole Foods Allergy Cookbook but it's useless for us. Virtually every recipe has an ingredient that ds can't have. I just got a new dehydrator that I should really start putting to use. This will definitely open up our food horizons.

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Old 05-09-2008, 09:33 PM
 
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Given your DS gets sick often, I thought I'd mention that several people in my circle of friends have had good results from putting hydrogen peroxide in the ears at the onset of a cold. It seemed to help prevent the colds getting to be big ones.

I've read a little about this on the mercola site but I don't have the article handy.

I hope you get all this sorted out!
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:48 AM
 
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DS has a low level sensitivity to wheat and milk, but not cheese. I don't understand how cheese can be ok when milk isn't.
I don't completely understand how this can be, but it's our situation too. Our old chiro, using muscle testing, said cow's cheese was ok (and yogurt and other fermented products) but not cow's milk. We weren't drinking straight cow's milk at the time anyway (I'd already seen it didn't work for me), but cheese was fine for my son (older baby/toddler-age)--we ate it frequently. But when I first gave him a bite of the ice cream I was eating, he threw up. Weird, but I waited a month or so and wanted to see if it was just a coincidence--nope, happened again. I _think_ the explanation I got involved changes in some of the protein in the milk during the cheese-making process (same with yogurt).

The Garden of Eating is grain-free and dairy-free, so it may be of help. But it still sounds like there are other things you'd need to check.

Good luck with all this. Eating TF has been a part of our healing as well, but a lot of different things have fit together like pieces of a puzzle. Although exhausting and disheartening at times, overall this process has been quite the learning experience for me and has broadened my horizons in unexpected ways. It has been a blessing (and I make sure to remind myself of that when I'm feeling down ).
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:59 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't completely understand how this can be, but it's our situation too. Our old chiro, using muscle testing, said cow's cheese was ok (and yogurt and other fermented products) but not cow's milk. We weren't drinking straight cow's milk at the time anyway (I'd already seen it didn't work for me), but cheese was fine for my son (older baby/toddler-age)--we ate it frequently. But when I first gave him a bite of the ice cream I was eating, he threw up. Weird, but I waited a month or so and wanted to see if it was just a coincidence--nope, happened again. I _think_ the explanation I got involved changes in some of the protein in the milk during the cheese-making process (same with yogurt).
Ok, well that makes more sense. I assumed that allergies to dairy products have to do with difficulty digesting the proteins, but I didn't realize that they changed that much when being processed to cheese. I would also call my current journey "disheartening." Whenever I see a recipe that might work, or try to think of some of ds's old favorite foods, I soon realize that there's a prohibited ingredient in it. Thanks for the book recommendation.

Qietserena, is the hydrogen peroxide put in the ears like drops, or do you just clean the ears with it?

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Old 05-10-2008, 01:39 AM
 
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Cheese also has less lactose than straight milk.

While dealing with my own sinus and allergy issues this week, I wondered if your son's issues might be more environmental allergies instead of food allergies?

Mama to Munchkin  and Chickadee ...and co-parent to 3 additional bundles of energy!
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Old 05-10-2008, 03:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Cheese also has less lactose than straight milk.

While dealing with my own sinus and allergy issues this week, I wondered if your son's issues might be more environmental allergies instead of food allergies?
I recently read somewhere, and ds' Dr mentioned it as well, that enviro allergies don't generally start until kiddos get older. I don't know what age they start, but I was told that ds' food problems with grassy substances could turn into enviro allergies when he gets older, if we don't nip it in the bud now. I think that just means avoiding those foods for a while and strengthening his digestive system.

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Old 05-11-2008, 10:25 PM
 
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I wanted to second the Garden of Eating...I have multiple food intolerances (gluten/dairy) and I use a lot of those recipes.

I wanted to share too that I have eaten TF for about 2 years and it has done wonders for my mood issues (combined with nutrient supplements), general well being..BUT I probably have another cavity, I still have abnormal paps, and still have food allegies. I do all the supplements too and I hope that things are at least improving. Sometimes I feel like maybe it is my fault that I am not trying hard enough to heal my gut and teeth but I have to live my life. I just try and be grateful that I have access to foods that suit my body.

I still have some mother guilt too about my son having soy formula when I had to wean him and he was allergic to cow milk. But he seems to be a very healthy boy. It is so hard to be a mommy because we love our chidren so much and want to give them the best. s

Jen

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Old 05-13-2008, 09:08 PM
 
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I recently read somewhere, and ds' Dr mentioned it as well, that enviro allergies don't generally start until kiddos get older. I don't know what age they start, but I was told that ds' food problems with grassy substances could turn into enviro allergies when he gets older, if we don't nip it in the bud now. I think that just means avoiding those foods for a while and strengthening his digestive system.
I have read this too and this was also our experience.
Enviro allergies showed up at age 3, I have read after age 2. It's called 'The Allergy March'. First eczema as an infant, then food allergies, then asthma. So far we've been able to head that off but not sinusitis.
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Old 05-13-2008, 09:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MommaMoo View Post
I'm pretty sure ds also has yeast. His poops are all messed up, and his digestion is bad.
I would highly recommend enzymes with and between meals. Karen DeFelice's site and books are very good www.enzymestuff.com. See Yeast/Bacteria page too, Candex is gentlest, then Candidase. It could also be mix of yeast and bad bacteria.

Our WAPF Dietician recommends oil of oregano for yeast too.

Acidophilus was not as effective for us as bifidobacterium.
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Old 05-14-2008, 07:35 PM
 
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s mama. I could have written that post myself about 2 years ago. http://www.cookingtf.com/journey.html is our story. Come to find out, we had celiac disease. Removing gluten from their diets has proven to be the fix for us.

KerryAnn @ CookingTF dot com - Nutrient dense foods your kids will LOVE!  Real Food Cooking School and Lactofermentation Classes now live! Use coupon code "CTF" for 20% off.

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