Fermenting: Body Ecology, TF, WF... oh my - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 31 Old 08-15-2008, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Does anyone have any insight on the fermenting ideas espoused by Gates' Body Ecology Diet? We're going to start it in September for some chronic issues DH has been having. But, after reading the book, I'm confused about her veggie ferments. She says that her "cultured" veggies are different than wild ferments, and that wild ferments are just going to encourage the bad yeasts. There's a part of me that is inclined to follow her advice since we're trying to heal DH, but there's also a part of me that thinks she might just be trying to sell her cultured veggie starter. But I'm also reading Wild Fermentation, and want to learn from him as well.

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#2 of 31 Old 08-15-2008, 12:20 PM
 
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I generally follow the Body Ecology diet as it is laid out in the first editions, since that is what I read first. I was very disappointed that she wrote in recent editions that kefir starter was better than grains and culture starter would make your cultured veggies more foolproof. If you tolerate dairy and drink milk kefir, then grains would be superior to starter, IMO. These starters are probably easier to use, make people less nervous, etc., but really aren't necessary. I don't recall reading in BED that wild ferments will encourage yeast, but maybe that they could if the wrong strain developed, which IMO isn't very likely if you are just doing cabbage, beets, etc.

I think if you fermented everything wild like Sandor in WF you might have a problem, but you wouldn't be fermenting fruit, potatoes, honey, and bread on the BED. Those foods definitely utilize wild yeast.

For young coconut kefir, I think that the starter would be really helpful, but a friend told me that she uses milk grains for that too, and although the grains don't grow, they stay alive with the addition of some trace mineral drops.

In my experience, food combining and the 80/20 principles have been the most important. I actually haven't been fermenting at all since I started this last time and it has worked very well despite that.
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#3 of 31 Old 08-15-2008, 01:23 PM
 
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I guess what I don't understand is why fermenting wild yeasts is bad. All yeast are not candida albicans.
Seriously, I am trying to understand this. Dh did a yeast cleansing diet recently and feels great, but he avoided all kinds of fermented foods. I am trying to understand exactly why.

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#4 of 31 Old 08-15-2008, 10:06 PM
 
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For young coconut kefir, I think that the starter would be really helpful, but a friend told me that she uses milk grains for that too, and although the grains don't grow, they stay alive with the addition of some trace mineral drops.
Water kefir grains work very well for coconut water. In fact, the grains love it! They get very happy when I give them some coconut water.

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I guess what I don't understand is why fermenting wild yeasts is bad. All yeast are not candida albicans.
Seriously, I am trying to understand this. Dh did a yeast cleansing diet recently and feels great, but he avoided all kinds of fermented foods. I am trying to understand exactly why.
I think that to things are happening here. First, not all "yeast" problems are caused by candida. They are caused by dysbiosis, which is an imbalance of the microorganisms in your gut, including an overgrowth of something harmful. So, you don't necessarily know which organism is causing the problem.

Also, if you have an overgrowth of yeast (the usual culprit, I think, but not always candida), then you are very possibly sensitive to that yeast, and possibly all yeasts. So you could have symptoms from consuming it, even if it doesn't really encourage the growth of whatever is the problem for you.

Hope that was clear. I'm not very clear-headed today.

Christie ~ proud Mama to : 5/01, and : 3/07; and proud wife to my since 1992. We have 13 and 2 : It's looking more and more like either a farm or a zoo around here.
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#5 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 02:01 AM
 
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Water kefir grains work very well for coconut water. In fact, the grains love it! They get very happy when I give them some coconut water.
When I used water kefir grains (not for coconut water) the end product had too much alcohol for me or was too yeasty. It definitely made my yeast/candida problems worse. Maybe it was just the grains I had? I do remember reading that water kefir doesn't have the same health benefits as milk kefir, though.
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What does BED say about kombucha? Is it a no-no because of the sugar? I was planning on using honey because I am reacting to cane sugar.

I agree, the recommendation for starter over grains leaves me suspicious too.

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#7 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I don't have the book in front of me, but I think I recall the BED saying that kombucha is a no-no, at least on the initial, very strict phase of the diet.

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#8 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 01:12 PM
 
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not sure what I think but I thought this was interesting and offered a different perspective : http://www.susunweed.com/herbal_ezin..._Mar-02.htm#q2

Hello Susan,

I have just recently discovered your website and am sponging up all your wonderful, informative writing as fast as I can. I've already placed an order for your books and am waiting anxiously for them but meanwhile, I wonder if you can give me some direction is my ongoing battle with candida-albicans.

In a nutshell, after 2 years of antibiotics, which only made my multitude of symptoms worse, and a highly stressful job and lifestyle, I discovered a naturopath who immediately told me I had candida. For the past year I've been on ALOT of naturopathic capsules (very costly) and have changed my eating habits and food choices to all organic, no sugar or caffeine, only
whole grains, very fresh or freshly ground, etc... I've even quit my very stressful job and am seeking freelance work and a more balanced lifestyle. I am married and have a 4 year daughter at home, am 40 years old and fairly fit and active (working to improve my exercise patterns)

The capsules and supplements I take now are:

Zypan - stomach acid
Zymex - slow fix for candida
Drenamin - ? not exactly sure but think it's supposed to sort of lure
candida away from vital organs while we're working on eliminating it?
DHA - brain food
Calcium
Catalyn - vitamin supplement
Garlic - standard capsule

Teas - drink lots of Yerbamate and Paul D'arco loose teas daily with stevia - and have just started using Paul D'arco tea as a douche to try to put out the fires of my yeast infections.

Anyway, I still struggle daily with yeast infections and the cough after eating from not digesting my food (bad gut flora levels-I take Zypan for my digestive needs), and alot of sinus mucus along with various negative emotional effects do you know of other herbals that could help me recover from this faster and less expensively?

Signed, Desperate for health

Subject: Candida is a helper. It is keeping you healthy!

Susun's response:

Oh dear. From my point of view you are doing the worst things in the world to try to help yourself. Let me explain.

Candida overgrowth results from lack of gut flora (killed by antibiotics in your case, but also killed by chlorine in the water, preservatives in food, and essential oils in your environment).

Candida is a helper. It is keeping you healthy! You need it. But not so much of it.

What would convince it to ease off? More gut flora! You need to eat lots of moldy, yeasty, bacteria rich foods like yogurt and sour dough bread and homemade wines and unwashed fruit (for the molds on the skins) and miso and sauerkraut. I know. I know. This doctor told you to avoid all those foods. I can only tell you that I have helped people who have had candida for over a decade, people who have taken all the (expensive) pills, people who have eaten strict diets, people who have done everything they though was right but still weren't healthy and still had symptoms. After 7-10 days on the fermented, moldy, yeasty, bacteria rich diet they are smiling and feeling great!!

My friend Ryan Drum has also treated hundreds of candida cleanse failures. His remedy is the same, only more simple. He has you stir a big spoonful of organic garden soil into a glass of water and drink it daily for a month. Gets those molds, yeasts, bacteria, and fungi back in the gut where they belong. I also see that the stores are selling pills of soil micro organism, so if you are really into pills, you could choose that option.But it is ever so much more fum (and less expensive) to just eat blue cheese, etc.

My suggestions to replace your drugs:
Dandelion root tincture, 20 drops before meals instead of Zypan
Yogurt, etc instead of Zymex
Candida does not get into any organs, it stays in the intestines. So avoid Drenamin
Nourish your brain with whole grains and cooked greens. Avoid soy, and stop taking DHA.
Calcium makes brittle bones. Instead drink nourishing herbal infusions and eat yogurt.
A cup of nettle infusion has 500mg calcium. A cup of yogurt has 450mg of calcium.
There are no vitamins in pills. Vitamins are enzymes produced by living tissues. All pills contain laboratory make synthetics and cause disease. Those who take as little as 500mg of vitamin C a day for a year create blood vessels that look twice their age. Throw away your Catalyn.
Consumer reports found that garlic powder, like you buy in the supermarket had more effect that any garlic capsule on the market. Costs a lot less too. Even fresh garlic works better. Cook with it. Roast it. Eat it on toast. Make it into pesto. Be creative, but throw out the pills.

Instead of Yerbamate which is full of caffeine, try nourishing herbal infusions if nettle or oatstraw or comfrey leaf or red clover. All of them will help your gut. Pau D'arco will kill gut flora. Please stop drinking it. Stevia could also make things worse as it is so sweet. Try to do without it for a while if you could.

If you have a vaginal yeast infection, it is NOT related to candida. Same organism, almost, but with a different lifestyle. First, eat yogurt. Then, put yogurt into your vagina. Do this for at least ten days. If symptoms do not go within a week, you have a bacterial infection, not a yeast infection. If so, you could put a peeled clove of garlic inside, near the cervix for 10-14 days to challenge the bacteria. Be prepared to smell like garlic if you choose this option. But please don't use Pau D'arco or anything else as a douche. Douches cause vaginal infections!!!

So these are my opinions. They are based on my extensive and ongoing research and my work with people over the past 35 years. We are all different and what has helped some others may not help you. But it might

Let me know how it goes for you. Helps me help others.

Green Blessings,

Susun Weed
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I don't get why she is saying that calcium makes brittle bones (which I do agree with) and then recommends taking "A cup of nettle infusion has 500mg calcium. A cup of yogurt has 450mg of calcium" instead of calcium????? That just doesn't make sense to me. Shouldn't one take magnesium to help bones and avoid cacium rich foods overall?
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#10 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 02:05 PM
 
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ok, I am showing this to dh. finally, I can say I was right

Is she saying calcium supplements are bad?But food sources are good?

Due with number 5 in August. We do all that crunchy stuff.
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#11 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 03:30 PM
 
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Is she saying calcium supplements are bad?But food sources are good?
I think that's her point...although I've heard other people say that dairy is not a good source of calcium because it's so high in protien
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#12 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 04:00 PM
 
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This page explains why calcium in dairy isn't good.
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#13 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 04:55 PM
 
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Oh my goodness, that letter to susan weed sound like me! I am dealing with it just the same way. I have been taking high doses of pau d arco tincture for ever and with no results! I am definitely going to try this alternative route and will report back if it changes. What do you all think of colloidal silver for yeast? Do you think it fits into the killing the good stuff category?

Amazing letter!!!
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What do you all think of colloidal silver for yeast? Do you think it fits into the killing the good stuff category?
I think it turned a man into a smurf. Did you watch Oprah? There was a man on there who took a lot of colloidal silver and his skin turned permanently blue. Like REALLY blue.
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#15 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 07:28 PM
 
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the colloidal silver bit is due to consuming the wrong kind. Which actually isn't quite colloidal silver.Let me go find the site where I read that.....

anyway- I don't believe in taking too much of it myself.

Due with number 5 in August. We do all that crunchy stuff.
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#16 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 08:52 PM
 
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When I used water kefir grains (not for coconut water) the end product had too much alcohol for me or was too yeasty. It definitely made my yeast/candida problems worse. Maybe it was just the grains I had? I do remember reading that water kefir doesn't have the same health benefits as milk kefir, though.
It sounds like your grains weren't healthy. I got my first batch from someone who had been feeding them honey. Honey is antibacterial, which causes the kefir to be yeastier than it should be (not saying yours were fed honey, just that the balance can be thrown off by something, then the grains aren't healthy and don't make as a good a brew). The second batch I got was very different.

It's also possible that your body reacted to the yeast in the kefir. Or is it possible you had die-off?? The yeast in kefir fights with candida albicans. If your grains weren't healthy and they had a higher percentage of yeast, maybe they were doing too much too fast. Or maybe they were contaminated with some other yeast. There are so many possiblities!

The make-up of water kefir grains is different from that of milk kefir grains, so they're likely to have different benefits, but they do have benefits. I've heard that about them not being as healthy before, but never from an "official" source. Just from someone who didn't feel as good with them as with milk kefir. I've seen mention of the health benefits of water kefir. And our family has been doing very well with it (so long as I keep the grains healthy).

All this to say that I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with water kefir.

Christie ~ proud Mama to : 5/01, and : 3/07; and proud wife to my since 1992. We have 13 and 2 : It's looking more and more like either a farm or a zoo around here.
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#17 of 31 Old 08-16-2008, 08:57 PM
 
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Does anyone know anything bad about caprylic acid as an antifungal? We've had good success with that. It comes from coconut oil (and is why coconut oil can be so helpful).

Christie ~ proud Mama to : 5/01, and : 3/07; and proud wife to my since 1992. We have 13 and 2 : It's looking more and more like either a farm or a zoo around here.
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FWIW I have been taking high quality probiotics for quite some time and kombucha on and off and have never had yeast die off symptoms come up. I even was on diflucan for over half a year about 8 years ago to kill yeast and didn't have die-off. THEN I started taking the Garden of Life "Primal Defense Ultra" which has the soil bacteria in it and instantly started having die off symptoms. Makes me feel like these ones are actually doing something!
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#19 of 31 Old 08-17-2008, 01:56 PM
 
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Also, if you have an overgrowth of yeast (the usual culprit, I think, but not always candida), then you are very possibly sensitive to that yeast, and possibly all yeasts. So you could have symptoms from consuming it, even if it doesn't really encourage the growth of whatever is the problem for you.
The usual ban on all yeasts & molds on candida diets, and what you've said here, has always struck me the same as saying, "So you've got e. coli? Better avoid *all* bacteria since it looks like you're sensitive to bacteria."

Of course, we know that good bacteria will only *help* you fight off a pathogenic bacterial infection. Being attacked by the Prussians doesn't mean I should avoid the Swedes. kwim?

I'm not sure what the right answer is.
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The usual ban on all yeasts & molds on candida diets, and what you've said here, has always struck me the same as saying, "So you've got e. coli? Better avoid *all* bacteria since it looks like you're sensitive to bacteria."

Of course, we know that good bacteria will only *help* you fight off a pathogenic bacterial infection. Being attacked by the Prussians doesn't mean I should avoid the Swedes. kwim?

I'm not sure what the right answer is.
I understand what you're saying. And I agree to a point. I think that good bacteria and yeasts are crucial and help a lot. And I don't really think that a person who has had a problem with "candida" will react to ALL yeasts everywhere. But, they very well may react to other yeasts, and that is determined by their body. So for one person it may one set of yeasts, and for another it may be another set. I think that a person needs to pay attention to what makes them feel good and bad, and avoid the things that make them feel bad, and I think that will be individual. The yeast diets I think go too far, and they probably are expecting that people won't pay attention to what makes them feel better and what makes them feel worse, so they just say to avoid it all.

An example of this is that our family recently had a "yeast" flair-up (yes, all of us) from a visit from my very, very moldy ILs. We didn't eat any differently, or change our routine. The only variable was that the ILs came, and they are very moldy people. Apparantly, we are all sensitive to their particular mold, and it affected our bodies in such a way that our flora was no longer balanced. Now, they may not have affected YOU in the same way. Same as if you eat a particular ferment and it helps you, and someone else eats it and they feel worse. I do think, though, that each person should find ferments that work for them, because ferments will help. But in some cases it really a case of finding the RIGHT ferment, because not all will work for them.

Hope this made sense.

Christie ~ proud Mama to : 5/01, and : 3/07; and proud wife to my since 1992. We have 13 and 2 : It's looking more and more like either a farm or a zoo around here.
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#21 of 31 Old 08-17-2008, 07:13 PM
 
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An example of this is that our family recently had a "yeast" flair-up (yes, all of us) from a visit from my very, very moldy ILs. We didn't eat any differently, or change our routine. The only variable was that the ILs came, and they are very moldy people.

Hope this made sense.
: What is so moldy about them??? I can't stop laughing about this. I can picture going to someone's house and feeling they are moldy, but how did they go about carrying the mold with them to your house? Please explain this, I may not be able to sleep tonight thinking about this.
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#22 of 31 Old 08-17-2008, 08:51 PM
 
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The usual ban on all yeasts & molds on candida diets, and what you've said here, has always struck me the same as saying, "So you've got e. coli? Better avoid *all* bacteria since it looks like you're sensitive to bacteria."

Of course, we know that good bacteria will only *help* you fight off a pathogenic bacterial infection. Being attacked by the Prussians doesn't mean I should avoid the Swedes. kwim?

I'm not sure what the right answer is.
good to know I am not the only one who feels this way!

Due with number 5 in August. We do all that crunchy stuff.
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#23 of 31 Old 08-17-2008, 09:18 PM
 
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: What is so moldy about them??? I can't stop laughing about this. I can picture going to someone's house and feeling they are moldy, but how did they go about carrying the mold with them to your house? Please explain this, I may not be able to sleep tonight thinking about this.
I guess it does sound funny. But really, I don't know how else to say it. See, they live in a moldy house, and it gets worse every year. We know that, and we know I'm very sensitive to mold. So, we bought new clothes for them (and some of our clothes that would fit) so they wouldn't be wearing clothes that had that mold in them. Even so, the smell of mold surrounded them. I think they were excreting it through their pores. Their hair smelled of it, too. And it doesn't help that they will only bathe once a week (and did that before they came) and won't wear more than one change of clothes over several days. By the time they left, the clothes we provided them were smelling very much of mold.

I hope this explains it well enough that you can sleep tonight. Honestly, I don't entirely understand it myself. It kind of defies logic.

Christie ~ proud Mama to : 5/01, and : 3/07; and proud wife to my since 1992. We have 13 and 2 : It's looking more and more like either a farm or a zoo around here.
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Oh, man. Now I'm laughing even more. Thanks for this beautiful rare occasion to bring a full on belly laugh. I'm sorry that it they make you sick though. I'm wasn't laughing at that.
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#25 of 31 Old 08-19-2008, 10:11 AM
 
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I've been pondering the Susun Weed letter for a full day now... chewing on it... I don't automatically believe everything the woman says. Yes, she's a guru, but she's also a bit crazy (I know people who've worked with her and... wowzers... she has a temper.) All gurus are subject to developing a narrow focus and often end up condemning practices just because they don't fall in line with their own approach, KWIM? Anyway... I'd heard the brittle bones from calcium thing before, but not the condemnation of vitamin C. Anyone else know about that? I've been supplementing with vitamin C for ages. Sometimes the good acerola stuff (so it IS food, not a synthetic chemical) and sometimes with plain ol' ascorbic acid. I have a clotting disorder, so my ears perk up anytime I hear something I'm doing might be damaging my blood vessels.

And what's up with her saying that Stevia might make things worse because it's sweet?!?! It has no sugar! There's nothing for the yeasts to feed off of. Stevia is an HERB, isn't she the herb lady? Shouldn't she know what it is?

I dunno... I'm confused, and casting a leery eye at my bottle of vitamin C. (FWIW I consider myself a miracle of modern supplements, so I'm a big believer that good things can come in capsules.)

SAHM of Kayla (11/98) Hunter (8/03) Jo (1/04) : Jared (2/05) Camelia (12/07) Hope/Chance (11/08) and Jack (12/09)
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#26 of 31 Old 08-19-2008, 12:45 PM
 
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Junegoddess,
Right after reading this thread " The Fourfold Path to Healing" arrived at the library. On pages 20-21 he talks about this same thing, siting the study done by Dr. Royal Lee. They say that taking 500mg of "vitamin c for many years can interfere with dna and potentiate the growth of malignant tumors". They later refer to ascorbic acid, and I think they mean that the study was done with just ascorbic acid. It says that the entire c- complex is needed, because by having just one part it rapidly depletes the body of the other components. Later in the book he speaks of how ascorbic acid can stop the absorption of copper in the body. (which is a good thing if your copper toxic, like me ) So, I would think that taking a c-complex derived from food, like I might imagine New Chapter might carry something like that, would be totally fine and not in keeping with the scary effects that were shown in that study.
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#27 of 31 Old 08-19-2008, 01:54 PM
 
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Garden of life has a great vitamin c, and camu camu is very high in C, as well as elderberry, rose hip, or pine needle tea.

I too have been thinking a lot about susuns letter. I deal with very bad yeast, but I eat just like she recommended. The only difference is I am on heavy pau d arco, so I am probably killing all the good gut flora I build up every day. I am also running on lack of sleep, and could be stressed (I don;t want to admit it), and I heard those factors can prevent you from releasing the bad yeast. I love to take supplements because I feel like it ensures I get enough nutrient even if I am not eating great, or since our food isn't as nutrient rich anymore from poor farming practices. So I am going to get of of the paur d arco, and see what happens.

I am ok with only using herbal infusions instead of vitamins, except for vitamin E. But now I heard bad things about that too. I need to find a natural source of that now.

This tread is not quite connected to body ecology, but kind of. I would love to see a thread about susuns letter post somewhere else so we could get lots of feedback on it. But here is good too.
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#28 of 31 Old 08-20-2008, 04:07 PM
 
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And what's up with her saying that Stevia might make things worse because it's sweet?!?! It has no sugar! There's nothing for the yeasts to feed off of. Stevia is an HERB, isn't she the herb lady? Shouldn't she know what it is?
I'm fairly certain Susun Weed knows what Stevia is. Just because something doesn't have sugar doesn't mean it doesn't have similar effects in our body. They talk about artificial sweeteners actually being just as bad for diabetics because your body *expects* sugar and responds similarly. I don't know that's what she's talking about here as she didn't elaborate, but would suspect it could be possible.

As for the calcium - I know that Susun Weed in general frowns upon taking things in capsule form believing that the closest we can get to the whole form is the better source. So...a nettle infusion would be better than taking the capsules w/powdered up whatever in them at your LHFS which is better than taking some component that modern science has extracted and encapsulated. I suspect she's likely applying the same principle here.

FWIW - Susun Weed is very WAPF/TF friendly and often references Price's work in her writings.
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#29 of 31 Old 08-21-2008, 10:56 AM
 
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I think it turned a man into a smurf. Did you watch Oprah? There was a man on there who took a lot of colloidal silver and his skin turned permanently blue. Like REALLY blue.
He's been blue for a long time. I've seem him b/f he was on O...

I'm bothered by a lack of specifying the type of foods that she is recommending here. "Yogurt" for an instance, should be cultured well.

I have "Moldy X-Uncle-in-law" who lives states away from us, thank goodness. And, he is very depressed, and sad, too. When we were invited to his house, I had to get out for fresh air.

I wonder, if the "Dirt" is the same "Dirt" that Jordan had eaten, from his book "Patient Heal Thy-Self."
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#30 of 31 Old 08-21-2008, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This tread is not quite connected to body ecology, but kind of.
OP here. Loving the "hijack," actually, and learning so much!

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He's been blue for a long time. I've seem him b/f he was on O...
I read this as "I've seen him breastfeeding..." Mwah ha ha haha! Too much MDC for me! :

Stacey teaching teens to read & write... Daddy plays ska, DD1 (7/05) loves trees & princesses, & DD2 (3/10) loves mommy-milk! Please get your kids tested for lead.
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