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#1 of 96 Old 11-13-2008, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I've crossed over into the TF deep end hehe. Or maybe the WAPF deep end.

I got a chance to spend some time with my inlaws this week and I couldn't help but note how both my husband and his brother have wide palates. Currently my MIL and the one grandmother (and the other one before she passed on actually) eat a very modern mainstream 'healthy' diet - low fat and low sodium, heavy on soy (cause it's so healthy!) and low on what the WAPF people consider good. But at one point this must not have been the case because judging by the boys, they ate well!

The only person in the grandparents generation in our family that's the 'bad one' is my father. His palate is so narrow and high that he's had chronic sinus issues because of this. He's actually had a doctor offer him reconstructive surgery, but the surgery was so extensive that my dad chose not to go down that path.

Has anyone else gone off into that deep end of checking out the relatives teeth?
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#2 of 96 Old 11-13-2008, 05:20 PM
 
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I haven't actually checked out teeth (okay, a bit just by chance but not asking people to open their mouths specifically for this), but I've really been looking at facial structure in my family.

For us, I see my grandmother's jaw and chin structure which is fairly well-developed, and then her kids are less, and then I am really less, and my son has the noticeably pointy chin and the V I have in my adult teeth, on the bottom pointing toward my tongue--he has it in his baby teeth.

The thing that's fascinating (in a sick way, but also in terms of hope for the future) is that the health problems we're susceptible to (so far I can see the heavy metal issue, not sure if there are other big ones as well) are coming on earlier and earlier each generation. I mean, grandma had 7 kids, every 2 years starting at age 18, and was poor and worked darn hard to get food on the table (7 kids and running a boarding house? yikes!). She had some depression problems, but got through them, and her alzheimer's didn't develop til she was in her 70s. My mom had (us looking back and both agreeing) thyroid and adrenal problems from her 20s or 30s, some depression and anxiety but not debilitating, Graves disease in her 50s and is seriously worried about her memory now--and she's only 60! And I fell apart during my 2nd pregnancy at age 30.

I guess I am really hoping that good food and lots of supps (and work to get the heavy metals out) will mean much better health for my kids and, maybe hopefully enough nutrients that their palates and faces can grow into what their genes would optimally allow for.

That was too long and serious a response, wasn't it? Whoops. But yes, you're not the only one looking at teeth and facial structure.
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#3 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 02:01 AM
 
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I look at EVERYBODY. I compare children in families I don't know. I was scrutinizing a picture of the family from that Jon and Kate Plus Eight show and noticing how much worse the sextuplet's palate;s were than their older sisters'. Once something has been called to my attention I have a hard time not noticing it.

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#4 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 02:19 AM
 
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OMG I am totally obsessed with checking out bone structure, including hips and shoulders and stuff. Anyone notice how unhealthy Michael Phelps looks? In that one WAPF article they talk about how the tall lanky physique is one of the results, but obviously it is all over his face too.

I just get sad looking at DD. I swear I see her face changing for the worse before my eyes.

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#5 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 10:07 AM
 
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I do this ALL THE TIME. I love seeing photos of immigrants from a hundred years ago... such square jaws... such good, solid bone structure. I know our perception of beauty has unfortunately changed, and a wide, strong jaw on a woman wouldn't be see as pretty... but man those women looked healthy!! And they were the poor, starving people coming here for a better life! Look what we did to their great-grandchildren.

All of dh's siblings have perfectly-straight teeth. Dh's are a tiny bit crowded, but that's all. My MIL used to LOVE eating brains and eggs for breakfast, and cold tongue sandwiches. She didn't do much else right, but she gave her kids a good start.

During the Olympics I literally was picking who I thought would win based on their facial structure. LOL I wasn't right all that much, but... oh,well. And YES Michael Phelps looks terrible!! Wow. His mama didn't have any vitamin D....

Oh, and if my daughter thinks she's allowed to marry just any ol' boy she is sorely mistaken. LOL I plan to check his teeth. My son has it even worse, though... I plan to check her entire family's teeth!

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#6 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 11:45 AM
 
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Me too! Especially when I watch Bizarre Foods or No Reservations, I play a game in my mind, "if I could move anywhere..." and most of it is based on what the people eat & what their facial structure looks like.

Exdp is from Mexico & looks very much Indian (as in, Aztec.) Everyone in his family (he's one of 12) has GORGEOUS facial structure & palates. He's 40 & has never had a cavity despite eating crap ever since he came to the States 23 years ago. So far, I've only noticed that Dd2 inherited his awesome teeth/palate/facial structure. I wish my other two did.

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#7 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 12:09 PM
 
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i can notice teeth and whether they are straight etc, but how do you look at a palate? do you have to look into the mouth? where is the palate - is it inside the mouth. are rounder faces a sign of better health? we have quite long faces but my grandmother was irish.

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#8 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Palate is the roof of the mouth, basically. You can tell whether it's wide or not by how crowded the teeth are in the front and also just by how wide the face is around the upper jaw. I'm no expert by any means and I didn't ask to look into people's mouths (oh man, they already think i'm weird as it is, imagine if I did ask!) I just noticed when they'd laugh how straight their teeth are and I know no one had braces.

My chiropractor has all this stuff to say about braces and how forcing teeth out like that often gives teens TMJ issues. There's apparently a movement among the chiropractors to work with orthodontists so they can do adjustments to help prevent those issues.

Junegodess, I had the same t hought about checking out potential suitors and nixing them based on teeth. But then I'd want to meet the parents and asses the whole familiy... Maybe I can just teach her to do it without my involvement?
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#9 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 03:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by leila1213 View Post
Anyone notice how unhealthy Michael Phelps looks? In that one WAPF article they talk about how the tall lanky physique is one of the results, but obviously it is all over his face too.
I did notice that! But at the same time, it's definitely working for him in some regards, you know?

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Junegodess, I had the same t hought about checking out potential suitors and nixing them based on teeth. But then I'd want to meet the parents and asses the whole familiy... Maybe I can just teach her to do it without my involvement?
See, I wouldn't go there. There are so many other factors to look at in choosing a life partner-- I would look at how interested in good health they are, not what their teeth are like. My dh and I both have "bad" teeth, so maybe I am prejudiced this way! Of our two boys, the first one has had health issues, and has decent teeth-- not great but not too bad-- palette is a little narrow but no crowding yet, and no cavities at all, and the second one (my healthier boy, I had been eating TF longer by then) has a nice wide palette and no cavities. So I think what's more important is whether the prospective partner is willing to make health a priority, because these things can be turned around. I mean, somone can have a perfect palette and lovely teeth, but if they feed their children nothing but junk, what then?

I think a lot of times handsome people tend to healthier bone structure naturally, because healthy bone structure is becoming, so in a way that kind of takes care of itself.

And I don't think that a wide palette on a woman would be considered unfeminine in this day and age. I saw a model recently (in a department store flyer, lol!) who had a nice wide jawline and a beautiful wide smile and she was just really lovely.

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#10 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I really did mean that as a joke, but it hasn't come through that way I guess..

I do think that there are way too many other factors to look at, FWIW.

I can't help but think of that old "looking a gift horse in the mouth" phrase every time I think about looking at bone structure...
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#11 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 04:15 PM
 
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I was mostly kidding, too. Mostly. I *know* there are many more-important factors to look for, mainly because I would have to eliminate myself as a good mate, using such criteria! I have no "birthin' hips", crowded teeth (thanks to not wearing my retainer after my braces were taken off), narrow palate to the point of sinus issues... I'm just a mess. And a hypocrite, I suppose.

I just hope my kids will absorb a lot of this knowledge... and choose wisely. If you think about it, there are so many modern "fixes" to bad genes, that it's hard to select for good DNA anymore. People literally used to check the teeth, because they knew they were a good indicator of health. Now we have braces, to erase that clue.

I'm rambling...

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#12 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 04:28 PM
 
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i got the joke - also had a funny picture of you asking people to open wide so you can check their palate!

i didn't finish my previous post before i posted it - was going to say that my grandmother is irish and was brought up on a very healthy diet in the countryside, fresh salmon, raw milk/lots of raw butter and cheese and good quality meats her family were bakers so always had fresh irish soda bread. she came to england at 19 and her diet probably changed then as she was in london. she had teeth removed during each of her pregnancy's (she had 6) but she evenutally ended up with no teeth at about the 4th pregnancy and has dentures. knowing that her diet was so good as a child it seems strange that her teeth got so bad and had to be removed. her health is declining greatly now (she has vascular dementure) but she is still alive at 88. its so strange about her teeth removal though, she has very good bone structure too.

i certainly wasnt' in TF and i knew nothing about it, when i met dp but i was really attracted to him because he had good teeth! its his weight that worries me more.

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#13 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 05:46 PM
 
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I really did mean that as a joke, but it hasn't come through that way I guess..
I'm sorry, I started things off on the wrong foot. Part of me laughs at myself, but part of me is really worried about my parents and whether they will address the health issues that have, that are just milder versions of what I've got.

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she came to england at 19 and her diet probably changed then as she was in london. she had teeth removed during each of her pregnancy's (she had 6) but she evenutally ended up with no teeth at about the 4th pregnancy and has dentures. knowing that her diet was so good as a child it seems strange that her teeth got so bad and had to be removed. her health is declining greatly now (she has vascular dementure) but she is still alive at 88. its so strange about her teeth removal though, she has very good bone structure too.
Bluebell, isn't this exactly what Price wrote about? Modern foods started coming into isolated villages and tooth decay went rampant, even among folks who'd had years of nutritious eating. Your family could be in his book! In a sense, it's amazing that so many of us are setting the bar so high with our own expectations given that most of us have generations of malnourishment to overcome.
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#14 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 06:28 PM
 
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nak-left-handed no less, but...

time mag had 10 questions with the founder of peta, where she talks about her $1 million dollar call to scientists to make meat in a lab (ugh!), but more than anything she said, I just looked at her face. Now, I don't know how her parents ate or how she was raised, but seriously, her face is so narrow. Check it out:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...853306,00.html
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#15 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 07:32 PM
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time mag had 10 questions with the founder of peta, where she talks about her $1 million dollar call to scientists to make meat in a lab (ugh!)
I saw an article today where PETA is trying to get health insurance companies to charge higher premiums to people who eat meat. So wrong in so many ways... (Here's the article: http://tinyurl.com/677aj2)
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#16 of 96 Old 11-14-2008, 10:38 PM
 
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Unreal.

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#17 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 12:57 AM
 
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Palate is the roof of the mouth, basically. You can tell whether it's wide or not by how crowded the teeth are in the front and also just by how wide the face is around the upper jaw. I'm no expert by any means and I didn't ask to look into people's mouths (oh man, they already think i'm weird as it is, imagine if I did ask!) I just noticed when they'd laugh how straight their teeth are and I know no one had braces.

My chiropractor has all this stuff to say about braces and how forcing teeth out like that often gives teens TMJ issues. There's apparently a movement among the chiropractors to work with orthodontists so they can do adjustments to help prevent those issues.

Junegodess, I had the same t hought about checking out potential suitors and nixing them based on teeth. But then I'd want to meet the parents and asses the whole familiy... Maybe I can just teach her to do it without my involvement?
I think that's where my TMJ originated - either extractions or braces.

Funny about the suitor thing - in retrospect, I like to think I "chose" the babydaddy based on good physical genes (structure, ancesterol diet, etc) but yea, that was about the only good thing.

PETA: unbelievable. :

I'm reading Gary Taubes' book Good Calories, Bad Calories & in the beginning, he talks about research (as in appropriate diet & disease) how the AMA & FDA come up with these ideal diets to avoid disease & that's it - there's no questioning it. But if it were a real trial, there would be loads of evidence & studies allowed, from all sorts of "specialties" & "sub-specialties" - not *just* from researches who specialize in heart disease OR diabetes OR obesity, but from ALL sorts of different fields or research.

Don't know why I went off on THAT tangent..I think I need to go to bed!

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#18 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 01:03 AM
 
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OK, this is pathetic and I've done it before but I'm going to do it again. Please look at DD's picture and give me your honest opinion: Is she starting to look pinched/narrow palate/anything else you notice, or does she look like a TF kid to you and I am worrying over nothing?

Oops, here's the link: http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...gLeaves050.jpg

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#19 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 01:12 AM
 
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OK, this is pathetic and I've done it before but I'm going to do it again. Please look at DD's picture and give me your honest opinion: Is she starting to look pinched/narrow palate/anything else you notice, or does she look like a TF kid to you and I am worrying over nothing?

Oops, here's the link: http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/i...gLeaves050.jpg

I see a general narrowing (as in if you compared her picture to the "good examples" in Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, but who among us wouldn't exhibit some narrowing, really.) I think about how my DS (whose baby teeth are a tad crowded on the bottom!) is totally TF and both DH and I were about 80% TF for 2+ years pre-conception, but then there was my 8 years of processed food veg*nism, and my mom's life of processed food (and cigarettes, and lack of sleep, and lack of exercise) and my Dad's reliance on highly engineered food, and DH's having grown up on pasta and little else, and his mom practically a vegetarian, and my grandparents... I could go on.

Don't be hard on yourself, don't get obsessed, just keep doing the right thing for your little (sweet-faced) girl.
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#20 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 01:23 AM
 
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Leila, your girl is awfully cute! I don't see anything wrong with her dental situation, but I'll ask my mom because she is A)a former dental nurse and B)a HUGE judger of peoples' health, diet, and probably morals by their palate width. I swear, sometimes this forum is like reading 100 copies of my mom. But seriously, it looks like your girl has plenty of space between her teeth, and those spaces will increase as she gets bigger, right? I can't see that her teeth are all that different than my DD's teeth, (older pic here, shows more) which have been proclaimed "perfect" by my mom and her dentist.

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#21 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 01:28 AM
 
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Thanks, but I don't think I'm in any shape right now to focus on this. Breathe in. Breathe out.

As a fun diversion (haha) I went over to westonaprice.org to check out the baby faces there for comparison. I don't know if you guys look at these.

http://westonaprice.org/children/babies.html

They are kind of weird, but one of them sort of got me thinking.

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IS YOUR BABY ALLERGIC TO MILK? THERE IS A HEALTHY ALTERNATIVE!
Our black and white photo does not do justice to Skylar Fushi's rosy cheeks and red lips. Skylar could not keep down any milk-based formula. Her parents gave her a homemade formula made from liver, broth and lactose, with added cod liver oil and coconut oil. "It looked pretty unappetizing but she loved it from the very first gulp. . . and has thrived on it ever since." At age two, Skylar still gets her liver formula along with solid food.
There is no way a normal nursing 2 yr old would ever eat/drink this raw liver formula willingly...right? Even though SF's views on BF are crazy, I'm just postulating whether it might make sense to give a BF baby some TF formula to get them used to the flavor, so that they would continue to drink it as a supplement into toddler- and childhood? Just a thought...

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#22 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 01:31 AM
 
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Leila, your girl is awfully cute! I don't see anything wrong with her dental situation, but I'll ask my mom because she is A)a former dental nurse and B)a HUGE judger of peoples' health, diet, and probably morals by their palate width. I swear, sometimes this forum is like reading 100 copies of my mom. But seriously, it looks like your girl has plenty of space between her teeth, and those spaces will increase as she gets bigger, right? I can't see that her teeth are all that different than my DD's teeth, (older pic here, shows more) which have been proclaimed "perfect" by my mom and her dentist.
I was posting at the same time so I hadn't read this yet. I appreciate your comments and would be interested to know what your mom thinks! But why do my DD's teeth look so pointy in comparison? Maybe the photo doesn't quite capture it. Probably part of why I'm worrying is that I babysat a little boy who looked soooo pinched and almost deformed, and I just see his teeth when I look at DD! I don't know why. Yes, I am obsessing. Sigh.

And Sarah, your girl is so cute! I do think that important "middle third" is much wider in her face than my DD.

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#23 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 09:51 AM
 
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Leila, I can't tell, I'm sorry! I can say it doesn't obviously look bad though!

Here is my first son at 2 months old. You can see that, in spite of having switched to a TF diet shortly before concieving him, he still has a thin, pinched face. He was also a lean and colicky baby. Poor little guy.

Here is my second son at about the same age for comparison. I had been on the TF diet longer. Look how fat and healthy he is. He had a very sweet, easy disposition, too. And never any baby acne at all.

Here are the boys now: you can see that with intensive work (GAPS diet), my older son's face has filled out a bit and his facial structure has actually widened a lot.

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#24 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 10:39 AM
 
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Wow, I love seeing pictures of everyone's kids! :

The first little girl- Milla- I can see a bit of what her mama is talking about. I don't see pointy teeth, but they are kinda close together. But jaws do widen as children grow! It looks to ME (and I am no expert, yet, ha ha) that it's the bottom third, her lower jaw, that is narrower. There was an article in the WAPF journal a couple of years ago that talked about which vitamins were needed for which part of the face. I don't remember what it said, but if you happen to know what I'm talking about... maybe that could help. She sure is cute.

I will see if I can find some pics of how much my daughter's palate has changed. One year of CLO/BO blend has really helped. She still needs braces, but is still refusing them. I know what you're feeling, though... a year ago I was cringing every time I saw my daughter's teeth. And she was 9 years old, so I felt like I had no hope... just felt so guilty and discouraged.

Spughy's daughter is adorable! And, yeah, I can see what her palate was rated "perfect." Nice square jaw! (Is she taking offers for matrimony yet? I have an adorable, Viking-looking son to offer up... )

And LionTigerBear- wow, your second son sure was deliciously chubby! And your first son looks like he has a very nice jaw now. Good work, mama!

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#25 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 10:57 AM
 
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And LionTigerBear- wow, your second son sure was deliciously chubby! And your first son looks like he has a very nice jaw now. Good work, mama!
Thanks!

Sarah, I missed your photos before-- your daughter has a great jawline! Way to go!

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#26 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 12:31 PM
 
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I'll have to dig into our external hard drive to find older pics of my daughter's teeth... but here's a link to a recent pic. Her teeth are still crooked, but... nothing like they were.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...ey=P4GUq0adeek

And, just for equality, my son... he's got the pointy chin, despite CLO and raw milk during pg, but I probably wasn't absorbing much... didn't know about my gluten intolerance back then.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...ey=P4GUq0adeek


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#27 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 12:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Junegoddess View Post
I will see if I can find some pics of how much my daughter's palate has changed. One year of CLO/BO blend has really helped. She still needs braces, but is still refusing them. I know what you're feeling, though... a year ago I was cringing every time I saw my daughter's teeth. And she was 9 years old, so I felt like I had no hope... just felt so guilty and discouraged.
I've been wondering about this. You know that growth spurt we get as teenagers? I really wonder if a lot of change could happen then, if we can practice beforehand (I admit, I need practice to get the nutrition right). As a counterexample, my husband is almost unrecognizeable from childhood pictures to adult pictures, and I think it's his face undergoing significant changes in his teen years. And not in the direction of Price-type good health. So I've wondered if the reverse is also true. I think we have more time than we usually assume, but it's this long-term process. I have real trouble with patience.
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#28 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 12:55 PM
 
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There was an article in the WAPF journal a couple of years ago that talked about which vitamins were needed for which part of the face. I don't remember what it said, but if you happen to know what I'm talking about... maybe that could help.
That would be interesting, if anyone can find an online copy.
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#29 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 01:35 PM
 
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Spughy's daughter is adorable! And, yeah, I can see what her palate was rated "perfect." Nice square jaw! (Is she taking offers for matrimony yet? I have an adorable, Viking-looking son to offer up... )

Do you think he's likely to keep that gorgeous hair into adulthood? Because that might make me inclined to overlook the 3 future husbands we've already lined up, plus some future wives if she turns out to be more inclined that way. (wow your kids are cute!) One of her little friends has such a huge crush on her that he rolls around on the floor when he sees her. It's very cute.

Ok, Leila - here is what my palate-judging expert mom said:

Quote:
That kid looks fine but is possibly a thumb sucker.... She's got nice spacing between her upper teeth already and it looks as if there will be plenty of room for the permanent ones later on. What is her speech like? What do her parents/grandparents look like? Sometimes you can't conquer genetics!


So there ya go. Nuttin' to worry about. Your kid is FINE. (And does she suck her thumb? Just curious...)

Postpartum doula & certified breastfeeding educator, mama to an amazing girl (11/05) and a wee little boy (3/13).

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#30 of 96 Old 11-15-2008, 06:02 PM
 
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okay now do my kids!!

I was vegan when I conceived ds1, I tried to get pregnant for a year and couldn't, then the first month I was vegan I did. I was vegetarian throughout both pregnancies. We just started eating meat again a few months ago and I'm so scared I "ruined" them ya know?!

They were both born 4 weeks early and are really healthy, rarely ever sick, but DS1 refuses to eat most meat and DS2 is still on formula. I have IGT and can't nurse more than a few ounces a day and dH won't let me make formula until the kids turn 1. So it's similac now. I feel like I'm really ruining all their chances.
DS2 DS1 and of course the links in my siggy.

thank you and BE HONEST.
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