Are there any vegetarians out there that have considered giving dc's meat? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 01:37 AM
 
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My family recently switched to omnivorism after being vegan for 5 years. DH and I had been noticing problems with ourselves (tooth decay, brain fog, not healing quickly, etc) but the thing that made us change our diet was seeing our baby's teeth starting to decay despite our "good" diet. We started with bone broths, and then added organ meat and raw goat probiotic yogurt and raw cow butter. Everything is organic/pasture fed. We noticed dramatic changes in our health, and DD's teeth stopped decaying. We took ideas from Nourishing Traditions, Body Ecology Diet, and The Maker's Diet. We don't eat nearly the amount of animal products that Nourishing Traditions advocates, and still feel healthy.

If you do stay veg, you can still incorporate ideas to improve your diet that I wished I'd done while I was vegan. Firstly, eating as much vegetable matter as possible for the vitamins/minerals, and a good chunk of it in raw form for the enzymes. Next, make sure you are getting your EFA's and vitamin D. A good whole foods mineral supplement would be good too (I hear VitamineralGreen is a good brand). Eat whole, unprocessed foods, and make sure to soak your grains and beans overnight before cooking to neutralize the phytic acid (which inhibits mineral absorption). If you do dairy, eat it raw and fermented. Incorporate lots of fermented foods like yogurt, kefir, saurkraut, kimchee for probiotics. Eat a wide and varied diet, i.e. don't rely only on soy for your protein. Drink lots of water and exercise regularly. Be happy!

Hope that helps!
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#32 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 10:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by toraji
Eat a wide and varied diet, i.e. don't rely only on soy for your protein.
Ok quick question for all vegetarians


How many rely on soy for ur protein and dont eat a varied diet???


For me i eat a varied diet, and dont rely on soy for protein since it can be found anywhere... so im good to go..and dd is tall and healthy and teeth are perfect

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#33 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 10:23 AM
 
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Interesting- I didn't rely on soy as a vegetarian because I'm allergic to it, although I did eat tofu or tempeh about once a week- I guess that counts as eating soy.

In fact, I went almost 20 years as a vegetarian before I even touched soy except as an incidental ingredient like soy sauce. (Then I met other vegetarians who introduce me to tempeh and tofu).

Ate a varied diet myself.

It depends so much on a person't individual body type how they process nutrients.

My vegetarian d loves kale, broccoli, seeds, nuts, fresh fruit, beans etc. but is still short. Being tall or short can be genetics, not result of diet.

My ds is a tall omnivore- he takes after me- again, I think it's genetics, not diet.

They both thrive on completely different diets.

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#34 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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How come soy is so bad? And is it not a complete protien?

We did rely on soy for a lot of our protien before I realized that dd was not allergic to dairy when she was taking probiotics. But for about 6-7months we had soy everyday.
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#35 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 02:25 PM
 
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TOO MUCH unfermented soy can be a bad thing....plant estrogens and such. I'd goole it for you but ds is waking up from his nap.

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#36 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 04:24 PM
 
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hmm i personally would rather having phyto estrogens in my diet than the estrogen hormone in cows milk which is an incredibly far more amount... (did that make sense.lol)

basing ur diet on ingredient isnt healthy.. some ppl who are new to lacto-ovo tend to overdo it on the dairy products and blame ill health and such on being vegetarian when in actuality its the dairy products...

protein is in everything ppl jus dont realize it.. and its been proven through various articles which at this moment i dont have access to it says that plant protein is easier to digest that animal protein...

and if meat has all the nutrients u need.. then why are cows and meat usually consumed by ppl vegetarians???lol

i always like to tell my daddy this piece of info i read once... name me an animal that is carnivorous that eats another carnivorous animal... meat eaters go after plant eating animals to get the enzymes and stuff that there diet is lacking... man i wish i kept some of the links and books where i read these things... LOL...

now c even tho i say all this ... my whole family and friends are all omnis and i have no issues with omnis... i dont care what other ppl eat..thats their perogative and this is mine...

what i find interesting is when some omnis are always asking me how do u get this vitamin blah blah blah in a judgemental tone... but im not saying to them.. do u know how much saturated fat and cholestrol is in that carcass ur eating... jus leave me alone if ur going to be judgemental... if u honestly wanna know how healthy it is then ok.. but if ur going to judge me... back off...

ok im crazy and coming off with attitude now.. i hope not to offend anyone... i love everyone :LOL

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#37 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 04:25 PM
 
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and yes overly processed/unfermented soy is bad... and thats for all foods... processed food suks and everyone knows that...

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#38 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 06:17 PM
 
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#39 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 06:29 PM
 
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Hey tricia,

I'm not trying to be a smart a$$ or anything, I'm just not clear on your meaning on a couple of points.

Quote:
Originally posted by tricia80

hmm i personally would rather having phyto estrogens in my diet than the estrogen hormone in cows milk which is an incredibly far more amount... (did that make sense.lol)
Do you have anything to back up estrogen levels in cows milk?

Quote:
and if meat has all the nutrients u need.. then why are cows and meat usually consumed by ppl vegetarians???lol
What did you mean by this? I'm taking ppl to mean 'people'...I;m confused.

Quote:

i always like to tell my daddy this piece of info i read once... name me an animal that is carnivorous that eats another carnivorous animal... meat eaters go after plant eating animals to get the enzymes and stuff that there diet is lacking... man i wish i kept some of the links and books where i read these things... LOL...



Not sure where you're going with this one....can you clarify? How do you explain animals that are canabalistic or omnivorous? What about scavengers? What about predatory birds that eat other predatory birds?

If I'm missing something TOTALLY obvious, please forgive me . It's happened before.

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#40 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 06:54 PM
 
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Most of the vegetarians I know eat more soy than they think. Keep a daily diary- you might be surprised at how much you get. When I did a soy elimination diet (it's one of the big allergins), I found it was present in many things- even bread.

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#41 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 07:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by tricia80
hbasing ur diet on ingredient isnt healthy..
That's exactly what I was getting at. A lot of veg*n people I've met will eat soy milk for breakfast on cereal or in a latte, soy protein in smoothies, soy protein for lunch in sandwiches, soy cheese, tofu/tempeh, etc. for dinner, without realizing that they've been eating soy all day. It's just in various forms so it's not as noticeable. I don't feel that overreliance on ANY food is beneficial. I've heard studies (don't have any links handy, but you can Google it) that hunter/gatherer tribes eat somewhere around 200 species a year. What does the average Westernized person eat? I thought my diet had been really wide and varied, then I realized that it consisted mostly of the same foods day in and day out, and most veggies in the same family (brassicas like broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, or alliums like onions, leeks, shallots). When I started journaling, it was a shock to see how limited my diet actually was. So now I make an effort to reach for different vegies that I normally used to skip over (burdock root? how the hell do you prepare that?!) and try to eat a variety of grains and beans, not just wheat and rye, but also millet, quinoa, wild rice, etc.

So I still eat soy, I just make sure to eat it in traditionally processed forms (tofu, tempeh, miso) and not eat it every day.

Hopefully that makes sense.
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#42 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 08:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by tricia80
For me i eat a varied diet, and dont rely on soy for protein since it can be found anywhere... so im good to go..and dd is tall and healthy and teeth are perfect
trish80, can I ask you a question? How long have you been vegan/vegetarian for? The body is amazingly resourceful and can store up vital nutrients for periods of time. When I first went vegan (5 years ago), I experienced great health benefits, more energy, radiant skin, etc. I now think that I had just not been eating enough fresh fruits and veggies before and that the influx of fresh foods was complementing my stores. Then after a while, I ever-so-slowly started declining. It was so slow that I still thought I was really healthy. I had a totally vegan pregnancy and initial lactation, and b/c of the stress, I started showing obvious deficiencies. But I still didn't change my diet until I saw my baby's decayed teeth. After switching, I realized how badly I'd been feeling before and how much better I was now feeling on an omni diet.

I still think I had a pretty good diet while pregnant and before that, DD is quite healthy and rarely gets sick. The problems that she had were eczema and tooth decay. I think I may have just been deficient in a few key nutrients like Vitamin D and EFA's. So that's why I always recommend that veg*ns make an effort to get these. Check out http://www.veganmd.com for info on EFA's and how important they are to veg*ns (in his online talks).

An omni diet is not the magic diet, you see loads of omni people running around with obvious signs of poor nutrition (wonky teeth, ears sticking out, etc). You can be vegetarian and healthy, I just don't think that extreme diets (only meat or strict vegan, fruitarian) are healthy for the long term. JMHO.
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#43 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 08:40 PM
 
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ICK FACTOR WARNING -


I sooo cannot find this study no matter how much I google, but it was about people from India in England. These were jains and other ethnic groups that had been totally vegan for generations. Within 3 years in England, they were showing signs of malnutrition, esp. B12 defieciency. These people were cooking and eating mostly (if not all) traditional foods, as they were in India.
The theorized difference, based on nutritional studies? In England, the produce is produced with pesticides and throughly washed or sanitized or waxed before sale. There are no insect eggs/egg casings in English produce. In traditionally produced goods, there is enough B12 and other nutrients through the inadvertant contamination of insects.

I found it to be very very interesting. A vegan diet can be completely natural and self sustaining, in the right food climate. That food climate is probably not the US. So US vegans have to do a little more to do it well. (And in my totally personal opinion, they have to be physiologically lucky, as some are not suited for it). Omnivores can slack off quite a bit more.

As far as the issue of herbivores/carnivores/omnivores raised above, I think cows eat grass because cows are meant to have an almost entirely vegetative diet. Human are not neccesarily able to do so. We have essential amino acids required in our diet (amino acids are the building blocks of proteins and enzymes). They are essential TO US because we cannot synthesize them. But there are bacteria and yeasts and many animals and plants that can synthesize ALL the amino acids. Clearly we are meant/designed/evolved to consume many types of foods.

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#44 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 08:50 PM
 
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I totally agree about the bugs. In real food, you would inadvertantly eat a few aphids and other insects/eggs, etc.- BUT these provided necessary nutrition. Now in our totally sanitized world- no wormy apples- you don't get all you need in a vegan diet!

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#45 of 57 Old 04-12-2004, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
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toraji - my dd was initially vegan due to egg and dairy products. We are no longer vegan but are vegetarian. Probiotics have helped her with her allergies. But in the last few months her teeth are showing signs of decay. That is why i am starting to research nutrition and how vit. and minerals are absorbed. I am also pregnant and do not want to go through the health issues with our new baby and have considered eating meat as well.

Since you were vegan, i am assuming that you cared about animal welfare. How did you get over that? I would never go to the grocery store and buy store bought meat since DH's family are organic farmers. But I bond with the animals whenever we are at the farm and it would be very hard to overcome that. I do believe that eating meat does have its benefits. But as vegans we did eat a variety of healthy foods (nuts, seeds, soy and other grains) and we still got sick.
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#46 of 57 Old 04-13-2004, 02:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by vegmom
Since you were vegan, i am assuming that you cared about animal welfare. How did you get over that?
It was really hard at first. The smell of it cooking was overwhelming. But I kept thinking of the cycle of life, and the idea of recycling energy through the food chain, and I knew that the animal products that I purchased were of the best quality that I could get short of raising it myself. I thought of native tribes, who have no problems eating anything and everything b/c that is all there is to eat, and a way of life. It is b/c of our luxurious ability to pick and choose what we eat that we can afford to be so particular! So to deny myself nourishment was to deny that I was a human, an animal that needed to eat like everything else on the planet. I still have a problem with organ meats, I get nauseated at first bite but it's gotten much better with time.
Quote:
I would never go to the grocery store and buy store bought meat since DH's family are organic farmers. But I bond with the animals whenever we are at the farm and it would be very hard to overcome that.
There is an old saying about never naming any animal that is intended for meat...I think there is something to that. I am so thankful to the animals that sustain me both with milk and meat, although that really sounds disturbing to write that. But somehow it makes it easier with that thought.

Another thing I discovered is that even strict veganism is not bloodless. There was a study done by a professor at OSU? (don't quote me on this, but anyone interested should be able to google it) about how farming and harvesting displaced and killed a lot of animals due to destroying habitat and the actual machinery involved in harvesting the crops.
Quote:
I do believe that eating meat does have its benefits. But as vegans we did eat a variety of healthy foods (nuts, seeds, soy and other grains) and we still got sick.
I actually got to a point in all my nutritional research where I just wanted to give up. I was sick of learning what nutrient was dependent on what for absorption but this other one would go out of whack if you didn't have this other thing, yada yada. I broke down in tears a few times. Finally DH and I just threw up our hands and said, "Well, my grandma is 94 years old and still going strong, what is she eating?" and then modified our diet to match hers as best as possible. She eats a traditional Korean diet and I felt a lot better matching her diet. However, I added raw fermented goat dairy and raw cow butter with the idea that I needed concentrated rebuilding right now to heal the damage. I'm hoping to eventually phase it out and do more of a paleo-type diet. But right now, DD's teeth are not getting any worse, we all feel better, and my and DH's teeth are showing signs of remineralization (getting whiter and stronger).

Ok, that was a novel! Hope some of that helped.
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#47 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 02:54 PM
 
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I forgot to add that you may want to experiment with different types of animal products to see which ones affect you positively. It was the strangest thing, but I reacted really well to beef/beef bone broth while DH reacted really well to seafood. We would experience euphoria and a sense of completeness/well-being right after eating it, while the other would not, or at least not to the same degree. I'm not sure exactly what it was, maybe the specific combination of proteins, minerals, etc was just what our bodies needed at the time?
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#48 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 03:10 PM
 
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I liked your previous post, it reminded me the other day when I ate salmon, it made me feel SO GOOD and happy! It tasted so yummy and I ate a ton. I think my body really needed it! But I know if I do that with beef, I end up feeling sick. Sometimes beef tastes really good and I know I need it, but I can't ever eat too much of it. interesting!
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#49 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 04:19 PM
 
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If something tastes good then you know your body needed it? I don't know about that. I think chocolate tastes pretty darn good and I'm pretty sure my body would rather I skip it.

But I understand where you're coming from. I'm vegan and I've been experimenting with the raw diet for a month (I'm 14 days into it) and I'm really craving bread and beans. I think sometimes though that a craving is just a psychological thing and not a physiological need. KWIM?
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#50 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 04:55 PM
 
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but erin, chocolate is loaded with antioxidants & terribly good for you. see? <g>

i know what you mean, tweety & toraji. my body sucks up seafood (oysters, esp- i could eat them by dozens) & i always have a sense of well-being & good digestive things happening after eating them (my gene pool is largely north atlantic, hmm?), while dh has no taste for them at all, but thrives on beef. i like beef, but there isn't that feeling of 'rightness' that comes with the seafood (strangely, bison settles with me better.)

i think listening to real cravings, instead of neglecting them till they get overwhelming & then loading up on say, 2 lbs of cheap chocolate brownies made with crisco (instead of that small square of good dark choc you were originally wanting), does have validity. i listen to my body when i'm in labor, or tired, why not when i'm hungry? my body is not my enemy.

suse
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#51 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 06:02 PM
 
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hi erin! You have great recipes on your site! I think raw foods are great, and I've been eating a lot of sprout bread lately. Yum! Have you tried Manna or Essene bread? It's super easy to make.

I have heard that chocolate cravings could be a sign of magnesium deficiency. The Rea Center has an interesting take on cravings, which I agree with. Scroll down on this page to find it:
http://www.mercola.com/2000/sep/3/rea_interview2.htm

When I experienced the euphoria after eating beef bone broth, I actually objected to the taste at first. It was my first foray into omnivorism after being a long-time vegan. So you could imagine how traumatic it was. But I could not ignore how I felt after eating it. It was very strange indeed.

Edited to fix link.
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#52 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 06:41 PM
 
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I'm curious...and since this is already meandering a bit.
The people who report happiness and satisfaction after eating certain foods, are they foods you grew up with?
Or foods that take lots of time to prepare?
Or foods that were previously too expensive to eat?
I'm wondering if it's a rememberance of nuturing times of the past, or a subconcious feeling that you are being well-taken-care-of by eating nuturing foods?

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#53 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 09:33 PM
 
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we never ate oysters (or other shellfish, for that matter.) i was adopted and raised by another gene pool, so if there is a genetic basis for liking certain items, i didn't learn it at home. just experimentation.

lol, it doesn't take long to heat up a can of campbell's oyster stew, nor do i think of it as a 'luxury item' (tho' good caviar makes me feel nice, too )

if it was subconscious remembrance of comfort food, i would be all over reconstituted lipton chicken noodle soup (which i can eat in a pinch, but don't exactly 'crave'.)

not discounting that these things may be factors for some, but i'm going purely by what makes my bod feel like i am soaking up wholesome goodness with every bite.

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#54 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 09:39 PM
 
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Thanks for answering my nosey question. That is very interesting.
I too have cravings, some of which I can identify as comfort cravings, but others....I don't know. I (heart) peanut butter, for instance, and carrots.

Should I start a new thread, maybe?

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#55 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 09:49 PM
 
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I grew up as a vegetarian then turned vegan (12 years of veganism). Bone broths, fish broths, etc.. all make my whole family feel very good. It's a very calm feeling I get from consuming them. I feel that it nourishes me on a deep level.
We all have different dietary needs and especially some of us who have been pregnant and nursing for many years can feel depleted.
I know that when I added raw goat 30 hour yogurt during my recent pregnancy, a void in my diet had been filled (I was consuming raw ghee, butter oil and raw butter but little else in the form of dairy) and I feel really healthy eating it.
Everyone has to experiment with what feels *right* to them. I do what feels right for me after many years of experimenting dietary wise.
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#56 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 10:22 PM
 
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i think a new thread is a great idea, 'cot. i'd like to know what makes other people go 'ahhhh. i needed that.' (anything for more ideas of things to try- i'm all about variety. anyone have any grasshopper recipes? lol, they're at my asian mkt.)

suse
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#57 of 57 Old 04-14-2004, 10:33 PM
 
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Susey- there's an email list for people who eat insects/bugs. They're high in EFA's.
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