Are there any vegetarians out there that have considered giving dc's meat? - Mothering Forums

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Old 04-06-2004, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have been considering this since dd has had a bout of illnesses over the past winter and we have made drastic changes to our diet but I am wondering if giving her some organic meat broths and organic organ meats would benefit her. I have just recently discovered Dr. Mercola's site and his recommendation is to eliminate grains and to eat unprocessed grass fed beef and seafoods. As I read through his material it really makes sense. I just think that I will be emotionally distraught if I have to prepare meat for dd.

I am also wondering about raw food. I have not researched this at all but am interested in hearing other peoples opinions if this is a healthy alternative.
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Old 04-06-2004, 01:42 PM
 
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i am vegan... and wont give meat to dd... she is soo much healthier without it...


i have increased our raw amount as i want to transition to 85% raw eventually .... its amazing how good u feel.... u should check out the library for a few raw books... we havent been sick all winter and usually we are and i feel its cuz of our diet...

i will eventually stop buying all processed food but its like an addiction its soo convinent but then its like u feel bad and ur body doesnt benefit..i jus read a good book but it deals with using raw diet as a weight loss tool but i took more out of it..and the info is amazing.. its called Fit for Life Not Fat for Life... its a good resource...

i wish well with whatever decision you make for your dc... if u believe it will emotional cause u distress i would look at all the alternatives before giving your child meat... good luck...

tricia

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Old 04-06-2004, 02:00 PM
 
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I think it depends on your kiddo's specific illnesses on whether or not it would benefit her to have meat.

Dh and I used to be vegetarian before ds was born. I had sooooooooo many meat cravings while pregnant...anyhow, back ontopic . We chose to be omnivores again after he was born. Ds gets dairy as well as (organic and freerange) chicken, fish , eggs and occasionally red meat. He's not such a red meat fan buts does enjoy poultry and fish.

I terms of iron, in general, it is easier to absorb it from animal sources. That said, there's no reason your dd couldn't get sufficient iron from plant sources as long as you're diligent about it. Fish oil is great in terms of overall health and strengethning the immune system.

IMHO, the occasional chicken or turkey or organ meat broth won't do any harm (as long as you're careful to find organic antibiotic free stuff). There are actually immune boosting properties found in chicken and turkey broths.

Good luck with your descision!

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Old 04-06-2004, 04:28 PM
 
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I think that you're doing research on the healthiest ways to live is such a positive thing for your children. BUT there's no reason to start a child (or anyone) on meat to IMPROVE their health! I suggest that you do more research on the pros and cons of meat and I think that your vegetarian commitment will hold true!

Kimberley
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Old 04-06-2004, 05:22 PM
 
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I've heard lots of people talking about eating meat because they feel they need it, bah blah blah. There isn't any reason that a person can't get all their adequate nutrition from plant sources. I think people feel they crave or want it but not need it. I don't have children yet but when I do, I will never give them animal products. If you think your children are sick because of nutritional deficiencies, have them tested to see if they actually have any, and what they are. Then you can plan how to meet those needs with plant foods. I had all my levels tested recently and they were all perfect. I've been vegan for 4 years. If you think your children need essential fatty acids, and we all do, there are many plant sources, not just flaxseed oil. I take flax and borage and eat pumpkinseeds to get that oil.

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Old 04-07-2004, 01:13 AM
 
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I am vege ( formerly vegan ) & have one vege dd, 1 defintiely carnivorous dd & one nursling. My vege dd is 18 yrs old & was brought up vege. She has lots of sugar cravings, depression issues & is very unhealthy. My middle dd got excema when she was about 5 months old. It turns out to be yeast related & I have found it almost impossible to get rid of with on a vege diet, even with probiotics, flax seed oil, no sugars or dried fruits etc. Her dad is a meat eater & has always been against me raising the kids vege. We compromised by giving dd a bit of fish once in a while. She was so into it she even ate the skin! So now, I give her the odd bit of organic free range chicken &home killed organic grass fed beef ( if I can get it ). Her excema has improved immeasurably to the point of only flaring up once in a blue moon. I am ok with her eating meat but I am totally strict about what type of meat it is. Like it has to be organic, free range, had a very good life. Preferably properly home killed. There's still no way she would get fed conventional sow crate raised bacon or broiler house chickens.
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Old 04-07-2004, 01:17 AM
 
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No way much more healthier with out meat.
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Old 04-07-2004, 01:24 AM
 
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I just wanted to add that every kiddo (as well as every BODY) is different. One diet may not be ideal for all kiddos or people in
general, the whole meat/veg debate notwithstanding.

Mama to Thing 1 and Thing 2.
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Old 04-07-2004, 02:06 AM
 
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That's my feeling on it, too, pumpkinhead. If you have no ethical considerations, try anything that appeals and see how you feel. I think there is a small but substancial part of the population that doesn't need animal products ever and a small but substancial part of the population does. Everyone in the middle can choose what works for them.
Organic always makes more sense than not.
Whole always makes more sense than processed.
Fresh always makes more sense than preserved food.
Since you state you would be distraught to prepare meat, I think you should give quite a bit more time to allow your new diet to heal you and your child. If she looks healthy, but just gets sick more often than you think she should, make some subtle changes and look for good news. If she doesn't look healthy, I think it might be time for more dramatic changes.
PS Have you read on Weston Price's site about broth? You may want to check that out if you feel a need to add animal products.
That man is a nut though. Just because he needs that much COW milk doesn't mean I would thrive on it.

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Old 04-07-2004, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I never thought that I would ever consider giving my dc's any meat products. But this past winter was so hard and dd got sick so often (not just the cold bug, but more serious illnesses), that it has crossed my mind to feed her meat. As dd has grown into a toddler and is nursing only 1-2 times a day and does not eat/drink everything that I offer her I have gotten concerned about her vitamin/mineral intake. She has always been underweight and in Feb. the doc classified her as failure to thrive (due to illness). Even though she is better and seems to have gained a little, that hit me hard since i would do anything to keep my dc's healthy. She is now on supplements (Floradix) but they are sooo expensive and only have a shelf life of 4weeks after opening, I don't know if we will be able to keep her on them. She can't have chewables only liquid due to teeth problems.

Meat stock and organ meats have a ton of vit. and minerals. That is the only reason why I would consider it. DD loved the veggie meats so I think that she would eat the real thing. We can't have them now bc they are a processed food.

The reason that I am interested in the raw food diet is because the diet consists of a lot of nuts and seeds. I am trying to get dd to eat a wheat and gluten free diet so I need something to replace the gluten grains.

Has anyone had any luck with giving a toddler any raw foods? DD only eats tomatoes, cucumber, sometimes lettuce. The rest she eats in soups. I guess I would have to purchase a raw food cookbook.

I have not heard of Weston Price. Is he a Dr. or a nutritionist? I will look him up anyways.

Thanks for the imput
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Old 04-07-2004, 03:29 PM
 
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You sound like a good mom, to be thinking of things way outside your comfort zone for your daughter. Way cool and unusual I think.
I looked into raw foods awhile ago, and it is intriguing. It wasn't right for me, I have emotional food issues and a raw food diet is too close to my anoxetic-obsessions for my health and comfort. But one hallmark of the raw food diet is getting enough to eat (calories). Nutrients aren't a problem, obviously, but calories seem to be. Most raw foodies I know IRL are bone thin men. I know there are raw mamas here, I hate to talk about something I'm not doing and will defer to their advice, but I don't know if raw food is a good choice for a toddler who is "too thin" now.
As far as foods, what about avacado? It's a good tasty high fat food that can be mixed into lots of things. Also, what about vegetarian sushi? California rolls are so good, oh wait, they have cream cheese and roe. But there are avocado rolls and cucumber rolls. They are fun, pretty, bite sized and have seaweed, rice and veggies with a little vinegar. All the supermarkets here sell it, but I think that's a west coast thing. I know there are good threads here on getting toddlers to eat, it seems to be a theme of the age.
Weston Price's website: http://www.westonaprice.org/splash_2.htm

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Old 04-07-2004, 03:57 PM
 
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I don't think serving a child meat to give them vitamins and minerals is the way to go. Fruits and vegetables, nuts, grains, and legumes contain all the vitamins and minerals a body needs, plus provide antioxidants and water content that isn't found in dead flesh.

I don't think you should turn raw. I would just keep feeding the kid as many fruits and veggies as you can.

When you're listening to the news when do you ever hear "If you want to beat cancer, eat more meat?" Usually they say, "Eat more fruits and vegetables to beat cancer and heart disease, etc."

To me, and this is just my opinion... feeding a child meat to increase their health is like giving a child a shot of whiskey to cure a toothache, or a cigarette to relieve stress. Know what I mean? Trust your instincts.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:53 AM
 
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Quote:
That's my feeling on it, too, pumpkinhead. If you have no ethical considerations, try anything that appeals and see how you feel. I think there is a small but substancial part of the population that doesn't need animal products ever and a small but substancial part of the population does. Everyone in the middle can choose what works for them. Organic always makes more sense than not.
Whole always makes more sense than processed.
Fresh always makes more sense than preserved food.
Since you state you would be distraught to prepare meat, I think you should give quite a bit more time to allow your new diet to heal you and your child. If she looks healthy, but just gets sick more often than you think she should, make some subtle changes and look for good news. If she doesn't look healthy, I think it might be time for more dramatic changes.
I wholeheartedly agree. I will just say for the record that I have pretty big health issues and I feel much better eating meat. Enough said.

I would recommend that you add coconut (milk and oil) products to your dd's diet. They have antimicrobial properties, and will probably help her to fight off illnesses. I've noticed a difference in our family since introducing it.

Although you may ultimately decide to add meat products (I can't decide for you what you should do there), have you tried other things that better fit your lifestyle? Some ideas that come to mind are adding other grains in where you've removed gluten grains (i.e. corn, rice, quinoa, amaranth, teff, among others), adding nut butters, avocados, flax oil, (I can't tell if you're vegan or vegetarian from your posts, so I don't know if the following are in your diet) eggs, butter, cream, cheese.

Smoothies are a great way to pack the nutrients and calories in. You can make them with coconut milk, fruit (fresh or frozen), avocado, nut butters, flax oil, even a leaf of kale (one of Cathe's suggestions that I've never actually tried, but sounds like a good idea).

Add butter, flax oil or nut butter to her cooked grains.

Prepare a "nibble tray" each day with healthy finger food of all kinds and keep it available so that she can eat whenever she wants (she may be more likely to realize she's hungry if she has food readily available and sees it often). Some things my ds really likes his tray are: puffed corn (in the cereal aisle at the HFS), rice crackers, sliced peppers, cucumbers, apples, carrots, nuts and seeds, berries, pears, cheese. Of course, I don't know what your dd eats at this point, so choose what's appropriate.

A tasty and nutritious "pudding" can be prepared by pureeing a baked sweet potato with a little nut butter and milk of your choice.

Toddlers often like dips. Hummus and guacamole are good choices.

You may want to avoid unfermented soy products for the time being, because they can leach minerals from the body, which you don't want right now.

Here's a thread about high calorie and nutritious foods where you might get some other ideas.

I know you weren't asking for other ideas, mainly just about the meat and raw diet, so if these ideas are things you're already implementing, please forgive me.

I hope your dd continues to get healthier and gain weight.

Christie

P.S. Dh suggested that eggs may be an addition to her diet that's less problematic for you. Maybe??

Christie ~ proud Mama to : 5/01, and : 3/07; and proud wife to my since 1992. We have 13 and 2 : It's looking more and more like either a farm or a zoo around here.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:53 PM
 
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I just wanted to add:

I don't know if you do dairy or not, but full fat yogurt is a wonderful source of probiotic bacteria and calories! The stuff with the high fat content is like pudding! A wonderful treat (you can get organic lemon flavour! Tastes like lemon chiffon pie! )!!

Also, raw garlic (in dips and salad dressings etc) as well as garlic oil are wonderful natural antimicrobials and give the immune system a boost. The same can be said for probiotic bacteria (i.e acidophilus etc) which can be obtained in wheat and dairy free preparations!

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Old 04-08-2004, 04:37 PM
 
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Just a different perspective & somewhat irrelevant to the health question, but I just feel like

I just became a vegetarian about 2 months ago. DH is NOT (although at home now, he is eating 95% vegetarian because I am the cook!). So, I had been cooking & serving chicken since the DC were born, and occasionally ham, turkey, or ground beef. DS#1 never liked any of it except for ham. DS#2 pretty much eats everything, so he doesn't miss the meat.

However, for now anyway, I will continue to let them eat it when we are eating out, which is pretty rare! Like when we go to MIL for Easter, they will eat ham. I think for me the problem is that DH isn't so much with me on this, so I don't feel justified in forcing it on the rest of the family. It is like I suddenly "found religion" and now want the whole family to come to church with me, you know?

I think that this is an ok compromise for now. THe kids will be eating meat just a few times a year, actually.
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Old 04-08-2004, 09:48 PM
 
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I don't want to get involved in any meat eaters vs. veggies debate (and haven't read all the replies, it looks like a nice, amiable discussion), I just want to recommend you check out the book Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon.

I was a vegetarian for over 11 years, my boys were raised vegetarian from birth until about 6 years ago. My dh and I choose to be vegetarians for health reasons, so, though the ethical issues are there, they weren't an overriding factor for us. We are not veggies anymore and I do feel we are so much healthier eating the NT/Weston Price way.

YMMV
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Old 04-09-2004, 06:11 PM
 
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I was vegetarian for a few decades- up until my second child was a year old.

My second child has eczema triggered by most plant ingredients- soy, tomato, citrus, potato, gluten, nuts, legumes (except occasional peanut butter). Coconut milk/cocunut flares it as well.

He is doing great on chicken broth, organic turkey and chicken, fish, broccoli and carrots, apples, fresh yogurt and raw milk cheeses.

Sometimes you just can't eat plant foods and thrive. I would prefer we could have stayed vegetarian, but we're all doing much better on a new diet.

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Old 04-10-2004, 10:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by monnie
I was vegetarian for a few decades- up until my second child was a year old.

My second child has eczema triggered by most plant ingredients- soy, tomato, citrus, potato, gluten, nuts, legumes (except occasional peanut butter). Coconut milk/cocunut flares it as well.

He is doing great on chicken broth, organic turkey and chicken, fish, broccoli and carrots, apples, fresh yogurt and raw milk cheeses.

Sometimes you just can't eat plant foods and thrive. I would prefer we could have stayed vegetarian, but we're all doing much better on a new diet.
This is sort of like the reason we chose to become omnivores after ds was born. Anything protieaceous and plant deriven would make his eczema flare up while I was nursing...If I ate animal protien, I could get away with eating more veggies...thbe combo seemed to help. Anyhow, ITA withyou monnie! Not everyone can thrive on a vegetarian/vegan diet.

WE still struggle with the ethics of everything and do our best to find free-range/organic/grain or grass fed/humanely killed meat and meat products...its hard, but the bottom line for us is the health of ourselves, but more so, our child.

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Old 04-10-2004, 10:46 PM
 
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Originally posted by pumpkinhead
humanely killed meat and meat products

I jus have a quick question ...and im not trying to be rude or snarky... or have any attitude... i would jus like to know how u humanely kill something??

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Old 04-10-2004, 10:51 PM
 
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tricia,

Well, I guess that *is* sort of an oxymoron. What I meant was that they are killed in the quickest and most painfree manner possible and prior to their death are treated with diginity and respect. I've been to a couple of the farms where we get our meat and seen how they are housed etc.

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Old 04-10-2004, 10:59 PM
 
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have u witnessed their killing methods?


I dont know if i could trust anyones word on it... lol.. im paranoid.. not jus that.. but i cant see slaughtering quick and painless... and thats probably cuz ive seen the horrible way some places do it... which unfortunately seems to be the majority...

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Old 04-10-2004, 11:30 PM
 
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I know the ppl who I get my meat from. Well more my dairy but it really is the same thing - just one level abstracted. They are a small organic farm. They have a man come around & home kill their cows. He sneaks up behind them & shoots them in the head. The last 3 all died instantly. I think they may have had a problem with the bull they had killed before xmas. As in he took 2 shots to kill. It creeps me out too.
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Old 04-10-2004, 11:57 PM
 
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personally i dont know who could handle that type of job....


im sorry it jus sounds sick to me... i couldnt do it... oh well to each his own...

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Old 04-11-2004, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
 
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My MIL and FIL are organic dairy farmers and my BIL works as a farm hand at another local organic farm. If an animal needs to be put down they do it themselves or have a neighbor do it in the QUICKEST way. They don't like to transport a live animal to the butcher as it stresses them out. They normally do it while the animal is feeding (away from the other animals) and it is normally over in seconds. They then take the animal to the local butcher. Most of the meat they keep for themselves and family.

I have talked to my MIL about giving dd her meat. Since I know the animal has had a good life and died in a stress free manner. DH eats meat and has it in the house and i thought that he would be able to feed it to her. But last night I dreamt of the animals and I don't think that I am ready to give dd meat.

We are working with a naturpathic doctor, so we will see how it goes.
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Old 04-11-2004, 12:30 AM
 
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Vegmom the meat is different. By that I mean it feels different. I know it may sound wierd but it is way more peaceful. I always say thanks when I cook it. I don't eat it myself. I think only you can decide where the line is drawn for your family.
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Old 04-11-2004, 03:58 AM
 
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Vegmom,

I appreciate the thought that you are putting into this and the fact that you are trying to remain veggie and want to do it as humanely as possible if you feel you must feed your child meat. I don't want to start a debate or anything. I just want to mention that I don't believe that there is anyway to be killed "stress-free". Obviously there is a LOT less stress in a situation you described than at a factory farm or slaughterhouse. But the animals still realize what is happening and are still in pain, etc. and they do go through stress.

Monnie,

I just want to mention that I had the same allergies as your son from birth until puberty and I was raised 99% vegan (allergic also to eggs and dairy, fish or chicken about once a month). So for some, it can work. My mother made almost everything from scratch. However, my legume allergies may not have been as bad as your ds - I was able to eat some beans.

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Old 04-11-2004, 11:39 AM
 
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tricia,

I have witnessed their methods...I don't want to get into a debate on whether or not the animals experience pain or stress during the process as I don't honestly know for 100% sure. I'm not privy to the animals thoughts etc.

Anyhow, they use what's known as a 'humane horse killer'. It's a small device that fits in your palm. It's not a gun, but has a bullet. It's placed over the animal's temple and a button is pushed that releases the bullet. The animal goes down instantly. The man who does it talks to the animals and pets them before. They don't appear to experience any stress. It's not done in the presence of any other animals (he transports them to a different, but familiar site first).


It's STILL horrific and it's still disturbing.....but I personally feel, if I'm gonna eat it, I should at least have the guts to kill it or watch 'it being killed. Thats only for me tho. I don't feel that eveyone else should do the same.

I grew up in a very rural setting with many 'family' farms and so I'd witnessed much slaughtering of animals from an early age. There was a slaughterhouse up the river...There is a distinct difference in how animals are put down in each setting. Both are disturbing, but each is VERY different. Slaughterhouses are vile[ whereas, the 'family farm' method is much more 'peaceful'....if you can call it that.

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Old 04-11-2004, 12:08 PM
 
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I am a vegetarian and have been for the last 12 or 13 years. My partner is not, and we raise certified organic grass fed Scotch Highland beef cattle. When we slaughter we take them away from the herd, give them some molasses grain, and shoot them while they are eating. They do not appear to suffer.

I will probably feed dd meat at home if she wants it, because I am able to nurture the lives of the animals that nourish her. However I feel uncomfortable with the idea of her eating meat outside the home.
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Old 04-11-2004, 03:02 PM
 
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PikkuMyy,
My ds was vegetarian but he did not gain weight well until added the meat. He won't eat beans. He does fine with dairy and eggs now.

I also gained my weight (up to my ideal weight) and health after adding eggs and occasional chicken broth or fish to my diet.

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Old 04-11-2004, 03:34 PM
 
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before ds was born, i wanted to bring him up veggie, because i had always thought that vegetarian eating was healthier.

then, i found out that i had multiple health problems from not getting enough protein and from eating wayy too many foods like pasta and rice. after doing research into traditional diets and orthomolecular nutrition, i came to the conclusion that veggie eating is not only not healthier, that it was making me very very ill. so, now, we eat meat, and i feed it to my ds as well.

I do think it's important to eat humanely raised, hormone and antibiotic free meat that's fed a natural diet. Difficult to achieve, sometimes, while on a budget, but we try.

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