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#31 of 45 Old 12-14-2011, 01:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pinksprklybarefoot View Post

I have a weird relationship with honey. My "rules" are as follows:

 

1) If I want honey as an ingredient, I use the generic Target fake honey. Tastes like honey, full of chemicals, but vegan. If DH accidentally buys real honey, I don't freak out.

 

2) I do not buy products with honey in the name, except Burt's Bees lip balm (it is so hard to find vegan lip balm!) on occasion. No "honey 'n' oat" granola bars.

 

3) If the honey is way down in the ingredient list *and* it is a product that I have trouble finding a vegan version of (cereal bars), I buy the nes with honey.

 

I am one of those "do the best you can but don't kill yourself over not being perfect" vegans.



Target has a fake honey?  That is interesting.  If it is full of chemicals, it might not be for me, but I have vegan friends who might be interested.  What is it called, exactly?

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#32 of 45 Old 12-14-2011, 02:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by FitMOmmyOf2 View Post

Ok, so after being vegetarian for ~6 yrs. I've finally made the switch over to becoming a vegan! I cooked/baked vegan most of the time already anyway, but now it's official. winky.gif

 

Now my only question is: what's your view on honey? I know, bees are also living beings (obviously) and 'technically' when wanting to be true to the vegan 'pledge', one shouldn't consume honey either.. However, for me it's a big difference whether I'm no longer using dairy/eggs or something from an insect!.. [I became vegetarian and now vegan for ethical reasons, the health benefits are a positive side effect.] I also don't really know why it's bad taking honey from the bees.. I mean, they're not being killed in the process as far as I know... We try to buy our honey from personal bee keepers and not big companies, so I'm sure they care for their bees, no?

 

I've always used raw honey in my tea and felt it was good for me. (Besides not wanting to use too much sugar and quite honestly agave nectar is expensive {here at least} and doesn't sweeten as much as honey IMO.)

 

Are there other vegans out there who also still use honey but call themselves vegan?

Is there maybe a difference of being a 'strict vegan' and vegan? 

 

Please share your thoughts & opinions!

 


I have  considered myself vegan for over a decade. However I am not millitant about it. I believe organic local honey is better for the environment that uber-processed agave nectar which is prepared in the same way as corn syrup! We use honey and love it:) I also love wearing second (or third) hand enwrapture vintage dresses which are made from recycled silk saris and my kiddos sport organic bamboo prefolds coverd by upcycled wool sweaters that have been made into covers and shorties. So yeah I would have kicked my a** over a decade ago back when I was straight edge if I had known I would break the rules and enslave the poor bees and silkworms and sheep.... but oh well I still consider my family vegan:)

 


be good family...

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#33 of 45 Old 12-14-2011, 09:45 PM
 
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In our case, for everyday bread, the best price I can find for an organic egg-and-dairy-free whole grain bread contains honey. To switch to one that uses a vegan yeast-food would cost me more than double. I cannot bake my own to save my life, I have tried and tried. It's more important to me that the bread be organic than free of honey. I am aware that that makes me technically not vegan, and that I could, in fact, just not eat bread. Meh. Whatever.

 

I do, however, splurge on the more expensive stuff for occasions where I'm feeding real vegans.

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#34 of 45 Old 12-24-2011, 08:04 AM
 
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I'm with catnip.  I generally only consume honey in bread products.  the way I see it, it's much healthier than high fructose corn syrup.  I also consume honey in Ricola's echinacea cough drops as I've yet to find a cough drop that can hold a candle to these when you're really feeling sick.  I'm also ok with some health & beauty products, such as Badger sunscreen, which I feel is the most natural sun protection aside from clothing or keeping out of the sun.  That said, I don't seek out honey to put in things. 

 

I still consider myself vegan as I think being vegan is less about such technicalities and more about minimizing animal suffering, maximizing health, and minimizing our ecological footprint.  These three things were my motivation for going vegan over 7 years ago, and I'm of the philosophy that these three reasons neatly sum up just about every specific reason for being vegan. Furthermore I feel that which of these reasons is most important to you is highly individual and different vegans make sometimes different choices depending on how they prioritize those reasons.  For example I have a vegan friend who dumpster dives and has been know to rip the cheese off discarded pizza and eat the crust and sauce leftover.  I personally wouldn't consider this vegan but his priority is the environmental motivation behind veganism, and I have to admit that eating a pizza destined for the landfill is probably more environmentally friendly than me baking a vegan pizza made with ingredients that had to be shipped long distances and/or used lots of plastic packaging...

 

Another example: I use wool covers made by Little Beetle.  They assure consumers on their website that their wool comes from sustainable farms which do not practice muesling.  I personally feel that wool is a much healthier fabric considering concerns about how polyester might react with moisture next to the skin ( http://www.diaperpin.com/clothdiapers/article_artificialmaterials.asp ), and it's also more breathable and presumably more biodegradable than polyester. Does this make me not vegan? Is my son not vegan because he nurses my milk, since clearly I'm an animal?

 

I say forget the vegan police.  Those who try so hard to avoid every possible animal product tend to be those who put animals first in the three reasons for being vegan, but realistically it's impossible to live a life where you cause zero animals to suffer.  Insects get smashed on my windshield, mice probably get killed when crops are harvested to feed me.  To me it's about a balance.  If I sacrifice one of the three pillars of veganism for the sake of another, then at some point the balance tips and I can no longer justify it because to me it might defeat the purpose of being vegan--or at least defeat *my* purpose.  Different vegans may have different priorities or tipping points; I don't judge them or declare them no longer vegan.  Instead, as vegans we should unite and agree that we are each trying to live our lives as compassionately as possible and this compassion extends to the health of animals, humans and mother earth.  It may not be possible to maximize this circle of compassion for all three at once, since occasionally they are at odds with one another.  But being vegan means striving as best you can to find the common ground that maximizes the health of these three things.  It's important to realize you'll never entirely succeed--you just do the best you can with each individual choice.


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#35 of 45 Old 12-28-2011, 01:43 PM
 
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Honey is not vegan. But that doesn't mean you should or shouldn't eat it. That's up to you.

 

A good way to describe a "vegan plus honey" eating style is to say you're beegan. That way you're clear about where your line is drawn and you're not trying to change the definition of vegan, but it's light-hearted and no one will take offense.

 

To be clear, however, bees are in fact animals. And they do, in fact, feel pain. If you disagree, take it up with scientists, not vegans.

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#36 of 45 Old 01-04-2012, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MrsSlocombe View Post


 



Target has a fake honey?  That is interesting.  If it is full of chemicals, it might not be for me, but I have vegan friends who might be interested.  What is it called, exactly?



 

It is their house brand (Market Pantry) and I believe the container just says, "Imitation Honey" on it. It contains some sugar alcohols, etc. I figure that since I only use it occasionally, I will just ignore the ingredient list. :) 


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#37 of 45 Old 01-04-2012, 05:11 PM
 
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Strict vegans won't eat honey.  I am predominantly vegan (I don't read each and every label for all those crazy chemical-sounding-but-animal-derived ingredients.  I just make sure there's no obvious animal products) and I eat honey.  I get local humane honey.  I know that some bees are accidentally killed in honey harvesting, but at the same time, mice and other small animals are killed during harvest of grains and vegetables.  I don't think it's a point to quibble about.  I wouldn't serve honey to strict vegans, like someone else posted.  It's also good for illnesses, wounds, allergies, etc.  

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#38 of 45 Old 01-05-2012, 11:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by marsupial-mom View Post

 

To be clear, however, bees are in fact animals. And they do, in fact, feel pain. If you disagree, take it up with scientists, not vegans.



I am, in fact, a scientist... and a vegan (the two aren't mutually exclusive ;)).  Do the mice that get caught up and shredded in harvesting equipment for the wheat bread you eat feel pain? Should I call you not a vegan if you eat that wheat that caused animal suffering or death?  What about mushrooms that grow in the manure of farmed animals that may have suffered pain or be destined for the slaughterhouse.? Or how about all the bees that get splattered on the truck windshields to transport your food to the market? Or what about the palm oil in your Earth Balance that is causing orangutans to suffer and die?  I don't understand the holier-than-thou attitude that "dictionary" vegans hold, when it's conceivable than more animal suffering went into the mushroom-Daiya-Tofurky-melt they ate for lunch than a small amount of honey in a whole grain bagel I had for breakfast.  The dictionary definition does indeed serve as a guideline so there isn't confusion but it's the intent that matters--minimizing suffering.  Very few foods are completely suffering-free and I think we would likely starve if we only ate said foods.  Do we want veganism to sound so hard to the newcomer that they are afraid to walk around the block for fear of stepping on ants, or have to prepare every meal from scratch from ingredients from their own garden?  Honey is technically not vegan according to the dictionary and neither is human milk--Does that mean my vegan daughters weren't vegan til they weaned?  I think where we each draw the line is very personal.  What dictionary definitions are good for is a starting point.  If I was preparing a meal for a vegan I would assume the dictionary definition to hold unless they specified to me otherwise.  That way we have a common definition, but they might say, "I'm vegan but I don't consume palm oil either."  or they might say "I'm vegan but honey is ok" There's little difference between these two things; I just adjust my recipe accordingly, don't whip out my dictionary and declare them no longer fit to entitle themselves to the term "vegan."  It's a lifestyle not a country club.


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#39 of 45 Old 01-05-2012, 01:02 PM
 
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I'll apologize for the snarkiness of my post quoting the definition of "animal," it was in direct response to a post that sounded to me like it was trying to exclude insects from that category.

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#40 of 45 Old 01-05-2012, 08:54 PM
 
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As someone who has been slowly branching into veganism over the last 6 or so months, I think that some vegan definitions can be a little bit hardcore, and I definitely think that the vegan movement can be intimidating and off putting for many.  If the standard is continued to be set sky high, most people will consider it unachievable, and give up. 

 

For me personally, it is about minimising animal pain and suffering.  I like the original definition of vegan, according to the British Vegan Society: "the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals".  The key word being "exploiting".  So, that's what I try to work by.  I say try, because I am not perfect, and I slip up.  But I'm doing the best that I can with my intentions, and the resources available to me. 

 

 


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#41 of 45 Old 01-06-2012, 04:25 PM
 
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catnip I wasn't really disagreeing with you, just with the vegan police ;)


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#42 of 45 Old 01-07-2012, 11:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Milk8shake View Post

As someone who has been slowly branching into veganism over the last 6 or so months, I think that some vegan definitions can be a little bit hardcore, and I definitely think that the vegan movement can be intimidating and off putting for many.  If the standard is continued to be set sky high, most people will consider it unachievable, and give up. 



On that note, this is part of the reason I don't get too twitchy about honey myself (but only part, there's much more to it for me personally)  -- here's something from Dr.Michael Greger (of http://nutritionfacts.org/ ) on this http://www.satyamag.com/sept05/greger.html

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#43 of 45 Old 01-07-2012, 03:09 PM
 
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Interesting article.  It's quite accurate on some points. 

 

If I were able to convince someone to quit eating meat, eggs and dairy, I would consider that a win.  Even if they still ate honey, or random animal derived ingredients that show up in things you would never guess.  Something is better than nothing

 

A lot of people have to take the vegan conversion slowly.  Baby steps.  That's okay - let's not scare them off.  I've been a (no egg) vegetarian for a long, long time, and becoming vegan has been hard.  There are things that I never imagined, in foods that I loved.  (Honey in my fave potato chips, carmine in my lollies, bone char flour in my bread, palm oil in EVERYTHING)

I'm slowly making the changes as best as I can, but I couldn't, even now, call myself a "vegan". 

I still own some wool clothing.  I have cleaning products that are animal tested.  Leather shoes in my cupboard. 

 

I'm trying, though. 


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#44 of 45 Old 02-08-2012, 10:45 PM
 
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the amazing documentary "Queen of the Sun." Came out last year, maybe?

 

I have been vegetarian since I was 10, and became vegan at 22. I'm now 31, and I don't know what to call myself. I'm much less policey than I was. I still don't eat meat, and I cook vegan, but I'll have some of my stepdad's cake (he runs a bakery) every once in a while and not ask questions about dairy in them. And I will eat my mom's chickens' eggs because I know they get to run around on several acres of alpaca farm, being happy vegetarian chickens. I will also knit with the alpaca fibers that come from my mom's animals, because I know them personally and help out on shearing days and see them prance around all happy after their haircuts. So maybe I'm not the vegan-or-whatever to be asking.

 

But as to honey, I don't eat it. The idea of eating another animal's barf makes me wanna...well, you know. I do at times consider keeping my own colony, and using the honey in herbal medicines, in part because of the horrible things I saw in Queen of the Sun (not that any one perspective is enough, but this movie was awesome):

 

Basically, because of monocultures, there are huge pieces of land with only one type of tree, which means that there are only flowers in the area for a short while each year, and that is of course not enough to sustain actual bees, who depend on a few weeks of apple blossoms, then a few weeks of apricot, then plums, or whatever. So there are NO bees naturally in areas of monoculture. And no bees means the trees can't get pollinated naturally, and if there's no pollination, the fruit crops are either zero or greatly reduced, depending. The answer? Most of the bees in the country are all brought together and trucked all over the country pollinating trees in areas of monoculture--farmers pay to have the bees trucked in--and then when the apple flowers are done, the bees go to the monoculture apricot areas. They get drugged up for all this trucking around, and even worse, because the bees are from all over the continent, they are sharing bee-sicknesses with one another, without any ability to adapt to the sicknesses.  Which leads to more problems.

 

And then there's colony collapse disorder.  Bees are SO important to biodiversity.  Without bees to pollinate, we would lose a huge percentage of all plant varieties on the planet.  And one thing that could save bee-kind is small local beekeepers who are dedicated to raising them healthily and respectfully.

 

I think my soap box is breaking from all my jumping up and down on it...

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#45 of 45 Old 03-22-2012, 08:32 PM
 
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I've been a vegan for 3 years and do on occasion eat raw honey

 

I think there is controversy on honey among vegans. some feel it is ok and some don't

 

Generally ethical vegans (ones living the full vegan lifestyle of things like no animal testing, circuses, pet stores, furs,etc) would not eat honey while nutritional vegans (ones eating a vegan diet for health and/or other reasons than strictly ethical ones may or may not chose to eat honey)..nutritional or dietary vegans also may care about animal cruelty issues certainly and do it for these reasons as well as health and do not necessarily do all the lifestyle things although they certainly may.

 

Some of the ethical vegans get angry if someone calls themselves a vegan and is not living the complete iota of the  "vegan lifestyle" or who does it mostly for health reasons.  I have seen them get bent out of shape and insist we vegan for health reasons call ourselves strict vegetarians and not vegans - at term noone understands so it is not practical//also why do they get to define who is vegan and who is not. I know I am eating vegan if they do or not and refer to myself as a vegan.

 

People like this tend to be rather militant and can chase people away from eating a plant based diet due to negative connotations that may become associated with the word vegan (ie-peta types)  to the community at large and this connotation is often associated with this type person who is insistent people eating the same diet as they are not really vegans which actually hurts their cause as people do not want to be looked at like that and thus do not go vegan least people think they are weird (I am not saying they are weird I am saying other people often see vegans as a whole as weird generally the ethical vegans)..

 

Personally I respect their beliefs but not their insistence anyone not doing it just like them is not allowed to say they are vegan..this makes me mad. I have also seen people on other boards act this way that you have.  I say ignore them and I avoid that site where they are so rude and insistent and non inclusive and see it as an us against them thing and find they tend to down people who eat just a little meat ore are vegetarians too when really all these people are helping their health and the ethical vegan cause if reducing factor farming etc,.

 

They do not use tactics that support their beliefs ion less animal cruelty as they fail to see that anyone eating less meat or working towards vegetarianism etc is saving the lives of animals.. I have heard of vegetarians who do not want to be associated with vegans due to their behavior so I feel this insistence on a host of rules is actually hurting their cause by causing it to become in some ways stigmatized

 

Also they fail to realize that many older people like myself primarily become vegan due to health concerns and than often due to association with other vegans and vegan websites come to become crusaders against animal cruelty as well down the road.

 

One lady had the gall to call me a self-tarian when I said I was vegan for health reasons (implying I was selfish)  and repeatedly insults me on another site saying I am not a "real" vegan even though I eat no animals/products but honey which makes me not want to associate  with people like that as it makes people generalize this to others vegans who are not that way to other ethical vegans and feel if someone is militant and its their way or the highway and wants to be exclusive rather than inclusive to ignore them and tell them they should call themselves ethical vegans rather than we saying we are strict vegetarians and not vegans 

 

If they feel their definition is valid (that only people believing other tenets like no circuses and a host of together things and also eating vegan are the only real vegans) and yours is not so (anyone eating a plant based diet_ and saying they  cannot use the tern vegans as they should, then there should be the ones using the additional description (ethical vegans as opposed to vegans) so one knows what they believe right off the bat and those asking at say a restaurant can use the term vegan that everyone understands rather than saying they are "strict vegetarians_ or self-tarians or people who are merely eating a vegan diet..sheesh

 

I think at my age I can call myself what I believe I am without these younger militant types trying to define what is and is not veganism..

 

Most people change their diets and beliefs gradually and when one tries to alienate rather than find common ground this is not the way I live my life so ignore people who say you can't take honey cause they think it working..do what you feel is best for you nicely and respectfully ignoring their rules/titles.

 

sweeteners

 

I personally have switched to raw agave nectar as trying to eat high raw and feel it mixes easier with smoothies.

 

One can use some as these natural sweeteners as well=sucanot, barley malt, raw honey, real maple syrup, stevia (sweet leaf), agave nectar, Xylitol, blackstrap molasses,  brown rice syrup, date sugar, maple sugar, fructose (some say this is not safe), raw coconut syrup/coconut sugar, lucuma powder, fruit juice concentrate, raw cane juice, yacon root (syrup/powder), Lakanto, and dried fruit more on some of these here

http://www.raw-living-food-success.com/natural-sweetener.html

 

agave is supposed to be lower on the glycemic index but it also has some problems. Stevia is good for diabetics and hypoglycemics but I  am not that fond of the taste.

 

The bible says honey taste good but don't eat too much.

 

 

I am interested in raw food and the latest book by former 100% raw foodist Victoria Boutenko (raw and beyond) the 3 authors warn not to eat too much wheat, grains, but worst are sugars and fats and fractionated foods.  the best foods are greens, fruits, veggies and maybe 20% beans and whole grains and possibly steamed veggies with tiny amounts of raw nuts and seeds and added oils..one is better off eating whole food fats like olives, avocados and coconut than oils..Avoid foods that are fractionated and not whole foods as grown.

 

Using that measure one of the authors says he no longer eats raw agave nectar/maple syrup..I would think honey would be more of a whole food and stevia in the dried herb form..when man alters it, it is best to avoid it. So in that sense I think honey may be better but I got used to using the agave so I am thinking I might switch to at least half other natural sweeteners that are more natural


I would not hesitate at all to eat raw honey if you like it and want to.

 

And I am quite certain many vegans do eat honey and many do not.

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