vegan babies and cows milk - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 11:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by defectgrrrl
Honey I've got a two yr old and a one yr old, and it takes me forever and a day to pump even 1/2 oz. When will I have the time to pump all this milk? Please, please stick to the subject. Once again, my nursing or pumping is not up for debate.
ok "sweetheart", I'm outta here since I don't have anything helpful to add. I am in the she NEEDS breastmilk camp though. I think I'd get doner milk in your situation. Luckily I always seem to have a breastfeeding friend.

Heather married to my highschool sweetheart 6/7/02 :cop: Mother to Dani age 14 and Timmy age 10 Nadia 1/29 :
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#62 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 11:38 AM
 
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Please lets not try to down play the importance of breastmilk in this thread. The fact is breastmilk is what human children are designed to have for at least 2 yrs and we know some of the benifits but we will probably never know all them. There is no ideal replacement for breastmilk, period. But that doesn't mean a child can't get adequate nutrition from other sources if they wean before 2 yrs (or weren't able to be breastfed at all) and *they do not need other animal's milk to get it*.

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#63 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 11:52 AM
 
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I guess where we part ways is at 1 yr. olds not needing breastmilk anymore, I strongly disagree.
I agree humans don't ever need the milk of another animal.

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#64 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Relynn

Standard whole milk from cows is made to turn a 45 pound calf into a 300 pound cow.
And don't forget that even if your getting your milk from a local organic dairy all dairy cows in the US have been bred to produce milk and are assentially freaks. Most farm animals rescued have a very time living normal lives in animal sanctuaries and are plagues with diseases from the breeding that has been done over the last 40 years to make them produce more more more.
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#65 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Relynn
I really don't think I have been reading the same thread..I didn't realize anyone was playing down the importance of breastfeeding..
Breast is best, but I think after 1 year, the baby/toddler will be fine on rice or soy milk..No animal milk is needed..
Rice milk is OK as a beverage, but it is not a true milk. It's not nutrient dense (very little protein or fat, both of which growing brains need) and shouldn't be relied on in place of other milks. Full fat soy milk is a better choice.

I'll leave out the obvious first choice. ;-):
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#66 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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More than just full fat soymilk for the little kiddos. They really should be given flax seed oil as a supplement for the fat and omega fatty acids.
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#67 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bri276
I used to feel the same exact way before I did my research. you don't drink raw milk from just any old animal on any old farm- it has to be clean and the livestock must be healthy. preferrably- your OWN goat!! of course this isn't reasonable or realistic for 95% of ppl in America. Doesn't mean it isn't still ideal, pasteurization destroys the bad stuff, but along with it destroys a heck of a lot of good stuff. You wouldn't boil your breastmilk for the same reason.
I know I'm going off topic discussing raw milk, but the core of the milk vs raw milk debate baffles me... Why do we even need the milk of another species? When people bring up raw milk, I feel weird about it because sure it's probably easier to subsitute milk and cheese with their raw counterparts, but that's ignoring the fact that we don't really need any milk once we wean from our mother. We're the only species that does that. That fact is at least worth thinking about.

About the safety of raw milk... DH is a vet student and has done research on TB and he is adamantly against raw milk. Sometimes we don't know whether or not a cow is sick because you can't tell just by looking at it and the TB tests aren't always accurate (he spent his summer last year doing different TB tests on cows). So are those nutrients from raw milk so important that they're worth the risk of TB? I asked him if there are the same problems with raw goat's milk and he said he assumes so, though he isn't an expert on the issue in goats. And TB can be spread through deer, so even if you have your own healthy couple cows on your property and they're totally isolated, you still are at risk.
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#68 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:51 PM
 
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Back to the issue of breastfeeding. I'm probably a "militant breastfeeding" mom and I'm planning on nursing dd for at least another year because I know it's what's best for her (she's 1). She still gets probably 90-95% of her nutrition from breastmilk.

That said, kids never *NEED* breastmilk. Some animals will actually die if they never get to nurse because they get most of their immunity passed through breastmilk/colostrum. Humans get a lot of immunity passed through the placenta. The BEST way to feed an infant is obviously the way nature intended, through breastmilk. Babies who are formula fed aren't going to die, but they might suffer from more illness and health problems. It isn't ideal for a baby to not get breastmilk as long as needed, but it isn't going to kill them. It isn't necessary that you talk to your child or that you cosleep or that you carry your child around in a sling, but it's what is best so I do it.

So basically, breastmilk is best and people should nurse as long as mutually desired for ideal health, but it isn't absolutely necessary. Therefore, I don't think we can label a solid age that kids NEED breastmilk until. While I think it's best for kiddos to get that breastmilk for at least 2 years, I can't make the claim that it's absolutely necessary.
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#69 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Relynn
I found many vegan boards with them discussing the "mililtant" WAPF and Sally Fallons..At least now I know the WAPF rhetoric!

their technique:scaremongering propaganda
The worst part: people fall for it!

it ALL seems to link back to WAPF, lobbyist Fallon and even beyondveg Billings..

I never really wanted to have to be an activist, but it looks like I will have to be to counter all the LIES coming from this militant WAPF

sorry for the rant
I'm just curious, honestly (not baiting), whether you think all the WAPF stuff is bull or whether you just think the animal products information is inaccurate. I'm not a big WAPF follower, but I have read a decent amount on their site and I find a lot of it compelling. So I'm curious to know if vegan anti-WAPF people disagree with the whole thing (including, for example, the coconut oil stuff), or just with the animal-related stuff.

For the record, I'm a vegetarian.

Sarah, mother to Eloïse (5/2005), Lucas (3/2008) and Ilias (7/2011), and due with #4 (March 1, 2014)

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#70 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:55 PM
 
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Does anyone have a reference to the 2 year breastfeeding number that everyone throws around? I've never actually seen where that particular age, 24 months, comes from.

And again, I'm really not baiting. I hope to CLW. I'd just like a link for my files when someone encourages me to wean.

Sarah, mother to Eloïse (5/2005), Lucas (3/2008) and Ilias (7/2011), and due with #4 (March 1, 2014)

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#71 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sarahmck
Does anyone have a reference to the 2 year breastfeeding number that everyone throws around? I've never actually seen where that particular age, 24 months, comes from.

And again, I'm really not baiting. I hope to CLW. I'd just like a link for my files when someone encourages me to wean.
I just know the 2 years thing is what the WHO recommends.
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#72 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 12:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by haleyelianasmom
I just know the 2 years thing is what the WHO recommends.
Yeah, I've just never seen anything backing that up. They recommend vaxing, too, and I'm not doing that! Anyway, I'll nurse her past two regardless, barring potential future pregnancy-related supply issues. Again, just looking for the science behind the number.

Sarah, mother to Eloïse (5/2005), Lucas (3/2008) and Ilias (7/2011), and due with #4 (March 1, 2014)

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#73 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 01:03 PM
 
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Oh and to answer another question, as far as I know, the only thing that isn't in an unfortified vegan diet is cobalamin (B12). This fact lead me to read some anti-veg stuff because it started making me think maybe we aren't meant to be on a plant-based diet. THEN, I read Dr. Fuhrman's book and he has a good explanation... In nature, we'd eat our veggies and fruit with some bugs and bacteria (yuck) that would provide the B12. So we just have to use fortified food and supplements unless you're prepared to go out and eat bugs

Oh, and get plenty of sunshine for the vitamin D. Or fortified food (preferably both I guess).
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#74 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My issue with the WAPF is their spread of anti soy propaganda and their insistance that vegans can't be healthy and shouldn't breastfeed their children. Also I find some of their stuff disturbing, such as the first food for a baby should be barely cooked egg yolk and grated raw liver. I will concede they do seem to have a few good ideas but to me their essential crackpotness in the former areas totally cancels that out and I wouldn't trust a thing they say.
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#75 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Also realize WHO recommendations go for world wide. Including areas where they couldn't possibly feed their small children a balanced diet. I'd also like to see some research about this if anyone has it. Especially since everyone is throwing it out right and left. And Sarahmck brings up a good point. If you don't follow their vax recommendation why would you insist everyone follow there bf'ing recommendation?

Well I'm off for the weekend. And I do hope to see some solid info when I get back, either that or a dead thread.
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#76 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 01:30 PM
 
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wow. are we actually debating the biological necessity of "extended" breastfeeding on mdc????? forget the WHO (and btw, their bf'ing recommendations are for all children, NOT just developing nations, that a common misunderstanding). but really, just forget the WHO, I don't believe everything they say either. how about the FACT that when children are allowed to wean themselves, it almost always happens between 2 and 7 yrs of age. that would be the "natural" part of natural family living.

anyways. once again, I state that I agree milk is NOT necessary for children or adults, but infants. And TB is not a concern in goats, it's *almost* unheard of for a goat to have TB, yet they're still tested for it, so I think being stressed out over a false negative TB test on a species that almost never carries it is borderline paranoid. and I never recommended raw cow's milk, because I don't believe that cow's milk is good for infants, raw or not.

still no one has answered my question about the properties of animal milk proteins vs. plant proteins. it's really too bad that this thread couldn't have been a friendly exchange of info and ideas.

DD1 7/13/05 DD2 9/20/10
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#77 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 01:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bri276
wow. are we actually debating the biological necessity of "extended" breastfeeding on mdc?????
I haven't seen that debated in this thread. Just in case you're referring to my post, please understand I am entirely in favor of extended breastfeeding for all humans. I just am interested in seeing a study or something else that supports the 24 month limit that I often see referred to here, as in "humans need breastmilk until they are 2." I'd like to know where that number comes from, as opposed to 27 months or 19 months or 50 months.

Sarah, mother to Eloïse (5/2005), Lucas (3/2008) and Ilias (7/2011), and due with #4 (March 1, 2014)

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#78 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 01:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bri276
it's really too bad that this thread couldn't have been a friendly exchange of info and ideas.
:
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#79 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 02:00 PM
 
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The American Academy of Family Practioners recommends nursing for 2 years.

The AAP originally was to suggest nursing for two years but working mothers lobbists complained about how that was too hard for a working mom (guess they didn't get the whole thing that most kids only nurse a few times a day at 2 and beyond) and the AAP caved.

Not to mention that formula companies literally built their headquarters. I think most organizations have been bought out by formula, its hard to trust anyone's advice. Go with your instinct (did you read the nutrition article in this month's mag?) and do what feels right for your and your baby.

Mom of a 7 yr old, 4 yr old, and 1 yr old. Wow. How did that happen?
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#80 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 02:16 PM
 
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http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBJulAug90p99.html

http://www.vegfamily.com/babies-and-...nd-infancy.htm

http://www.mothering.com/articles/ne...an-or-not.html

These links talk about breastfeeding beyond a year. I think the fact the natural weaning age is from 2 1/2 yrs.- 7 yrs speaks volumes about how long our children are biologically supposed to continue breastfeeding.

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#81 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 02:17 PM
 
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o
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#82 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 02:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by haleyelianasmom
That said, kids never *NEED* breastmilk.
wow. hate to see that on Mothering. Just because we have developed a way to keep our young from dying if they don't get mother's milk, doesn't mean they don't need it.
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#83 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 03:13 PM
 
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I'm pretty sure he is dead but his foundation and followers live on. More than likely someone reported your post. MDC is pretty strict about no name calling of any kind and there are plenty of members willing to report it to the mods if they see it (especially if they disagree).

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#84 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 03:21 PM
 
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I think the answer to my question about why 24 months seems to be the magical recommended age up until which "humans need breastmilk" is that that's as far as any real research has gone, and it was clearly still necessary up to that age.

The reason I'm curious about this number is that I find it a not-so-compelling argument to say "humans need to have breastmilk until 24 months" simply because it seems to be a made-up number. It's just a coincidence that it's a nice round number like 24 months which just happens to be 2 years on the nose? So it's not a statistic that I personally like to offer others simply because I am not able to back it up with the study that shows that the NEED exists until age two but not beyond.

I personally think that the NEED is variable by child, but that a child under, say, 18 months is extremely unlikely to self-wean without complicating factors.

That is not to say that I doubt the sincerity of moms like defectgrrl, who says that her 14-month old doesn't want to nurse. But I think that human relationships are so amazingly complex that there are probably other emotional factors at play in that sort of case.

Let's say that a mom feels guilty about some aspect of how she raised a former child, or she feels very ambivalent about breastfeeding because of some body image issue, or she has a lot of pain breastfeeding, or one of a million other reasons. I think that those feeling must somehow be conveyed to the child simply because we are all so complex and babies must be hyper tuned in to non-language communication since they don't understand language at first. I wonder if younger babies who still biologically need milk (maybe because they don't have enough teeth to eat a variety of foods, or their digestive systems aren't mature or whatever) might pick up on the emotional issues that the mom is going through and push away from the breast as a result.

I'm not trying to blame mothers whose babies strike, and I'm not trying to direct this bit of conjecture at defectgrrl. It's just something that I was thinking about today while putting my baby to sleep.

Sarah, mother to Eloïse (5/2005), Lucas (3/2008) and Ilias (7/2011), and due with #4 (March 1, 2014)

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#85 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 03:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Relynn
No one seems to mind dumping all over vegans
I don't feel like people have been dumping all over vegans in this thread.

That said, I can understand why you might be defensive about that issue because people in the general public do often make derogatory or ignorant comments about vegans, and especially about raising children as vegans. So I can see that you, as a mother of five vegan children, must have encountered a lot of resistance and general uneducated hassle, and that is too bad. Especially given that a lot of it probably comes from people who think that their BigMac-eating kids are healthier than your vegan (presumably super nutritious food-eating) kids.

It seems to me that everyone posting to this thread agrees that breastmilk is the best source of nourishment for a baby, and that extended breastfeeding is the ideal. The only source of discord seems to be whether vegan milk substitutes are as good as some type of animal milk (with the specific type also at issue) for babies who are weaned from breastmilk before their natural weaning age.

Sarah, mother to Eloïse (5/2005), Lucas (3/2008) and Ilias (7/2011), and due with #4 (March 1, 2014)

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Relynn -- have you read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration? Besides being a dentist, Weston Price was a researcher. He took numerous photographs of native peoples following a native diet and native people following a westernized diet. The evidence is astounding.

I'm a Seventh Day Adventist -- so I know a LOT of vegans....and unfortunately a lot of these vegans are obese or fighting cancer or osteoporosis etc etc...and I certainly know a lot of vegans who have tooth decay and children with crooked teeth and tendencies toward dental decay. I go to my church and my heart breaks for these people eating "veggie" cheese and veggie burgers full of processed soy, MSG, hydrolyzed vegetable protein along with rancid hydrogenated oils and shortenings.

There is a woman in my church who has a PhD in Nutrition! She admits that processed foods are terribly unhealthy -- and she herself eats eggs, milk and fish for health reasons. Our church members respect her, so I have no clue why she doesn't tell them the truth about processed foods.

I think you have been terribly rude and one sided from the start! You put down the WAP research without even taking a look at it! I am all for healthy eating -- even full on veganism for healthy individuals past their child bearing years who have access to high quality organic nuts and produce etc. But processed veggie meat, white flour pasta, donut eating veganism is just as unhealthy as eating all your meals at Burger King.
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#87 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sarahmck
It seems to me that everyone posting to this thread agrees that breastmilk is the best source of nourishment for a baby, and that extended breastfeeding is the ideal. The only source of discord seems to be whether vegan milk substitutes are as good as some type of animal milk (with the specific type also at issue) for babies who are weaned from breastmilk before their natural weaning age.
Exactly.
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#88 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Relynn
I am going to edit all my posts from this dairy loving WAPF forum..
happy?
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#89 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Relynn
I am going to edit all my posts from this dairy loving WAPF forum..
happy?
I've got to say that this seems like a really big overreaction. It might be valid to call the Traditional Foods forum a "dairy loving WAPF forum" if you like, but it just doesn't seem like a fair moniker here. I believe that you said in an earlier post that you had never even heard of WAPF until this week. (Once again, I remind the reader that I'm not a big WAPFer, so don't get the idea that I'm here to defend it.) Have you really done enough reading on their perspective in that week to merit all the bile you're spewing?

I asked earlier what you thought about their positions on non-meat-related topics (like coconut oil) and you never bothered answering. Too pissed off to engage in a conversation, I guess. Oh well. I am genuinely interested, if any other anti-WAPFer would like to chime in.

Sarah, mother to Eloïse (5/2005), Lucas (3/2008) and Ilias (7/2011), and due with #4 (March 1, 2014)

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#90 of 177 Old 09-08-2006, 07:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheacoby

These links talk about breastfeeding beyond a year. I think the fact the natural weaning age is from 2 1/2 yrs.- 7 yrs speaks volumes about how long our children are biologically supposed to continue breastfeeding.
I would never argue whether or not children are supposed to nurse past age 2 or whether or not it's what is best. I think it is pretty much a known fact (at least hopefully among MDC-ers) that breastmilk is best and that kids naturally have breastmilk as a major source of nutrition for at least 2 years. It's what is natural and ideal.

I hope no one was referring to my post as the anti "extended" breastfeeding. I was sipmply playing devil's advocate and mentioning that while it is BEST and natural, it isn't actually *necessary* for life. Just like how a vaginal birth is much healthier and more natural, that isn't to say that all c-section babies will die (good thing, too, because dh was a formula fed c-section baby!)
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