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#61 of 64 Old 06-06-2007, 12:30 AM
 
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Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
Another thought I had--I don't see how a breast fed 8 or 17 mos old can be used as poster child for veganism, vegetarianism, or omnisim. Breastfed babies or toddlers don't need food as they already have the perfect food, breaastmilk. It's only when weaning takes place, or when the majority of food intake is not from the breast of a healthy mother (veegan or not) that one might consider diet to be an issue if a child is having difficulties with normal growth and development. I've known tons of omni kids (and veg and macrobiotic ones as well) who never had food until over a year old, and I know lots of kids (been in LLL for years and years and years) who didn't start eating food-food, until nearly two years old.
My dd was one who would not eat food until she was over 1, and she did have a diagnosable speech related developmental issue. Her gag was in the front of the mouth, and we worked with a speech pathologist to correct this. She is three and still nurses and eats alot of veggies. I really think the op should consult a professional, such as the child's ped., if she feels there is a delay.

Many Chinese eat a plant based diet with less than 5-10% animal products because they can not afford animal products including fish. What China definately has is rice and noodles. Natives in Bolivia and Peru are 95% plant based... Certain Indians are vegan; Jains are the group that I recall hearing about. Some types of Buddhism encourage a path towards veganism. I am to tired to think about it any more and must go watch the Colbert Report.
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#62 of 64 Old 06-06-2007, 10:09 AM
 
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I never said the study focuses on cultures that are vegan. My points were separate points. the study shows how a vegan diet is the most healthful diet, and how proteins from animals contribute to cancer, diabetes, obesity, etc. the other point is that the vast, vast majority of people in the world, although perhaps not vegan for their whole life, are extremely poor and live without access to very much meat or other animal products. most people in the world also historically did not eat cow dairy. i don't know where you get your info that says "most" chinese have regular access to fish. most chinese are very poor, and i doubt people that live far inland have a lot of fish in their diet. or other expensive animal products, for that matter.

I also resent it when people assume that all vegans are "well-nourished middle-class" people. i know plenty of people, including our family, who live very sparsly on what could be considered a poverty level income. i'm not like rolling around in my fancy car, eating specialty vegan soy products every day. i eat lots of beans and rice, stuff like that. a vegan diet is a lot cheaper than a meat/dairy/eggs diet, when you don't eat a lot of pre-packaged foods or specialty foods (like tofurkey, etc.)

but i'm really not concerned about that. i hate getting into discussions about what people are "supposed" to eat and if people have been vegan historically, as if this really matters. what matters is what is going on right now: factory farming is wrong and bad in every way. it is unnecessary to consume animal products with our modern access to nutrition. therefore, we shouldn't eat animal products. i don't really care if there have been vegan cultures historically. there hasn't been massive access to meat historically, either.
People are posting that there are vegan (no dairy at all, no eggs etc (outside of middle class western cultures with access to Whole Food type grocery stores and supplements and Vitamix blenders), so I asked where.

As for the China study. That it found eating smaller amounts of animal products and more plant food helps with heath, doesn't make an argument for a vegan diet. It does make an argument for smaller amounts of animal products, and more plant food. That's not a vegan diet. That some authors of the study inferred that because a small amount of animal products in conjunction with larger amounts of plant foods helps one to be healthy, then no animal products should make you healthier doesn't make their inferrence correct. I don't see the logic in that leap.

That's not what the study showed at all. That people make the inference that since a little is better, none must be best is flawed thinking. How do we know that the little amount of eggs or fish or chicken or beef eaten in conjunction with 'massive' amounts of plant based foods isnt the ideal combination? In fact, isn't that what the study did show? I am *not* arguing, I am discussing, wanting to understand.

Again the difference is not meat *based* Vs plant based.

Nobody is arguing for massive amounts of meat, or that most cultures had access to massive amounts of meat all through the seasons.

As for healthy vegans, I thought we were saying that healthy, well nourished vegans had healthy babies, yes? I think they do. If you are saying there are malnoursihed vegans in the world with healthy babies, that's fine. (Otherwise please clarify for me, as I do want to continue this discsion in a friendly way). Where are they? That is all I am asking, and I really, truly, am asking in an interested, not cantakerous way.

I cant say that my family is vegan, but we eat 95% vegetarian, so I am not approaching this discussion from a meat and potaotes SAD prespective. I truly am not.

And PS-- I own and love my Vitamix.
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#63 of 64 Old 06-06-2007, 11:27 PM
 
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People are posting that there are vegan (no dairy at all, no eggs etc (outside of middle class western cultures with access to Whole Food type grocery stores and supplements and Vitamix blenders), so I asked where.

As for the China study. That it found eating smaller amounts of animal products and more plant food helps with heath, doesn't make an argument for a vegan diet. It does make an argument for smaller amounts of animal products, and more plant food. That's not a vegan diet. That some authors of the study inferred that because a small amount of animal products in conjunction with larger amounts of plant foods helps one to be healthy, then no animal products should make you healthier doesn't make their inferrence correct. I don't see the logic in that leap.

That's not what the study showed at all. That people make the inference that since a little is better, none must be best is flawed thinking. How do we know that the little amount of eggs or fish or chicken or beef eaten in conjunction with 'massive' amounts of plant based foods isnt the ideal combination? In fact, isn't that what the study did show? I am *not* arguing, I am discussing, wanting to understand.

Again the difference is not meat *based* Vs plant based.

Nobody is arguing for massive amounts of meat, or that most cultures had access to massive amounts of meat all through the seasons.

As for healthy vegans, I thought we were saying that healthy, well nourished vegans had healthy babies, yes? I think they do. If you are saying there are malnoursihed vegans in the world with healthy babies, that's fine. (Otherwise please clarify for me, as I do want to continue this discsion in a friendly way). Where are they? That is all I am asking, and I really, truly, am asking in an interested, not cantakerous way.

I cant say that my family is vegan, but we eat 95% vegetarian, so I am not approaching this discussion from a meat and potaotes SAD prespective. I truly am not.

And PS-- I own and love my Vitamix.
i never said there were 'vegan cultures'. i said that MOST people in the world do not have regular access to meat, milk and/or eggs. most people have a vegan diet. i doubt that most people in the world have delays or problems.

the china study does, in fact, recommend a vegan diet. the author, who is by no means an animal rights advocate, made his family dietary vegan after the study results showed that cow dairy, in particular, is at least as dangerous as cigarettes. have you read at least the long excerpt on the website?

but i think we should stop this discussion now, at least out of respect for the fact that this is not a debate forum, nor a debate thread. and the OP probably doesn't want this discussion in her thread.

L married to J 8 years. Parents to 6 y.o. dd and 3 y.o. ds :nana
Veggie Family
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#64 of 64 Old 06-07-2007, 12:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Lohagrace View Post
i never said there were 'vegan cultures'. i said that MOST people in the world do not have regular access to meat, milk and/or eggs. most people have a vegan diet. i doubt that most people in the world have delays or problems

the china study does, in fact, recommend a vegan diet. the author, who is by no means an animal rights advocate, made his family dietary vegan after the study results showed that cow dairy, in particular, is at least as dangerous as cigarettes. have you read at least the long excerpt on the website?

but i think we should stop this discussion now, at least out of respect for the fact that this is not a debate forum, nor a debate thread. and the OP probably doesn't want this discussion in her thread.
I don't feel this is a debate, but a discussion. But I am happy to move it somewhere else. Lots of threads sometimes change direction. If that's a problem here, can the mod let me/us know so we can move it?

You're saying that MOST people in the world have a vgan diet, but I don't know who you mean. I sincerly ask this. (I do not doubt that people in war and famine zones are not eating much protein, or anything much else. But I dont think you are talking about those people? We certainly wouldn't find health in that sort of deprivation). I can't think of any culture that doesn't have regular access to something-- milk, eggs, red meat, poultry, something. It may not be in large quantities, but I am reading and searching and looking at my globe, and I don't find/see any cultures where most people are vegan.

I also know the author of the China study chooses and recommends a vegan diet. However, the study shows that small amounts of animal foods with large amounts of plant foods contribute to good heath. That the author recommends something doesn't mean the study found a vegan diet to be superior (most people were not vegan at all). I am not debating the author's choice of diet, I'm simply talking about what the study found.


So, really, it's more questioning for clarity on my part, not debating.
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