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#121 of 145 Old 06-02-2009, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by meganmommyof5 View Post
Valerian tincture may work. And frankly, if you've tried everything that everyone has mentioned except CIO - well, that may what works. Of course, it's always up to you as far as what you can live with. Having been seriously sleep-deprived in the past, I found that I am a much better mom when I am rested, and my children are much better kids when they are rested.
what is valerian tincture?

I'm positive CIO wouldn't even work.

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#122 of 145 Old 06-02-2009, 10:30 PM
 
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I'm positive CIO wouldn't even work.
Valerian is an herb that is used to help with sleep problems in adults. I wonder if it would be safe for a baby.

I have one of those sensitive, persistent little ones, and I am positive CIO won't work for her, either--one more reason not to even consider it.

My DD is just a few weeks younger than yours, so I'm here with you. We have good days and bad, but we will get through this, even if it is just one day at a time.

Catherine, mama to Preschooler Girl 9/08, and Toddler Boy 3/11

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#123 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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We had yet another night of 10+ wakings, and up this morning at 5 AM!! Oh, and he wouldn't go to sleep last night until 9 PM!! That is only 8 hours of BROKEN SLEEP!

I will look up Valerian tincture and see what I can find on it. Maybe I need to find a holistic ped (do those exist??). I posted another thread on seeing a sleep specialist. I dont even know of any in my area, or if they'd be able to help or just tell me to let him CIO. WHY isn't there more support and more answers for babies who don't sleep!? WHY is it always assumed that they don't sleep because they are being manipulative and need to CIO? :

This is a serious problem. It is deeply affecting our family and our quality of life. There HAS TO BE an answer other than to let him CIO.

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#124 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I looked up valerian, and it seems to be something that may give us a couple good nights, but def not a longterm fix....

Quote:
Prolonged use of valerian results in tolerance, and increasing the dose may have serious side effects. According to some researchers, long-term use of valerian may cause psychological depression, damage to the liver, or damage to the central nervous system.

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#125 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 09:09 AM
 
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We had yet another night of 10+ wakings, and up this morning at 5 AM!! Oh, and he wouldn't go to sleep last night until 9 PM!! That is only 8 hours of BROKEN SLEEP!
That actually makes sense. It is miserable, and lots of us mama of spirited/sleep fighters have been there, but it makes sense. Being overtired leads to high cortisol while sleeping, which means broken sleep and early rising.

The real question is: How was yesterday different? Or has he been in a string of bad nights? What could be his triggers? Too much activity? You or DH stressed? A delayed or missing nap? Did life happen and bedtime was pushed back 15 mins? Most kids can take it in stride. There are others who temperament just does let them.

I found that what ever trajectory we were moving on, DS would keep moving in that extreme. Bad sleep progressed to worse sleep. Good sleeping helped him get better and better rest. Most kids sef-correct (i.e. collapse when exhausted). Then there are the different ones.

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I dont even know of any in my area, or if they'd be able to help or just tell me to let him CIO. WHY isn't there more support and more answers for babies who don't sleep!? WHY is it always assumed that they don't sleep because they are being manipulative and need to CIO? :
You can certainly try, but a friend of mine did. He told her some kids are just this way, there was nothing physiologically wrong, and that she could let her CIO if she needed a change. No other suggestions were given. There wasn't any medication that he knew of or could recommend.

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This is a serious problem. It is deeply affecting our family and our quality of life. There HAS TO BE an answer other than to let him CIO.
I can certainly relate to this desire. :


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I looked up valerian, and it seems to be something that may give us a couple good nights, but def not a longterm fix....
Yikes! These side effects sound scary.

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#126 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 10:16 AM
 
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We have a SN DD with serious neurological issues. Not sleeping was a major problem for us. Her neuro prescribed Clonidine, which is an anti-hypertensive that is also commonly used for sleep disorders in children. If your child is physiologically normal, I don't know whether your doc would prescribe it or not - but it was a life saver for us.
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#127 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 10:18 AM
 
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Oh, just another quick thought - if you want a doctor to take it seriously, try CIO - just for a day, so that you can honestly tell them you tried and it doesn't work. Telling most docs that you're disregarding their advice because you "know it won't work" undermines the doctor/parent relationship. Trust me on this, I've dealt with more doctors than you could shake a stick at.
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#128 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 10:40 AM
 
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I just want to offer hugs, mama. I didn't read all the responses but scanned through and read yours and some made me want to cry remembering our similar experiences with ds. It is so hard and traumatic. Sleep deprivation is damaging for everyone. Don't know what I can offer other than hope. Ds was the worst at about 8-10 months. I was desperate. Then he nightweaned himself (at 10m) after a stomach bug left him so tired he slept through the night for two nights. It's been slowly getting better since and now at 19 months he only wakes 1-2times a night. HOPE!!!
One BIG improvement we made was to sidecar his crib to our bed (at about 10m). He was close but our movement didn't disturb him and he seemed to like stretching out in his own space, but still close to mama. We didn't CIO at all.
Good Luck!
eta: Another lifesaver was dh would take over baby duty on the weekend mornings so I could sleep in for 2-3 hours. Bliss!
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#129 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 12:37 PM
 
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i know you are feeling desperate but i would NOT try either that valerian or cio...both have serious side effects.

you could look for a naturopathic doctor. may not be a ped but still may have some ideas. here is one place to look for one: http://heartspring.net/naturopathic_directory.html

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#130 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 02:46 PM
 
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I also have to respectfully disagree that you should try CIO in order to appease a doctor. It is a medical professional's prerogative to be insulted or put off by what you do or don't do, and really, you have no control over his/her feelings. As the parent, you are the expert on the subject of your child and your family, so if you say CIO won't work, or that it doesn't suit you philosophically, then *end of discussion*, thankyouverymuch medical professional, and let us move on to discuss *medical* issues related to night waking.

I was also thinking of Dr. Sears' list of possible causes of extreme night waking and wondering if any of these slightly more unusual ones might apply to your little guy:
  • sensitivity to polyester or other irritating sleepwear
  • nasal allergies to dust, lint, pollen, perfume, etc.
  • UTI
  • anemia
  • too hot
  • too cold

Catherine, mama to Preschooler Girl 9/08, and Toddler Boy 3/11

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#131 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 06:57 PM
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I've been following this post for a while, although I haven't read all the responses. My 2yo was very similar to yours, woke every 30 min or so most nights until he was 18 mo. He cried, couldn't go back to sleep even from nursing, would wake at the sound of the fan coming on, etc. We were also desperate, although I was the only one sleep deprived because my husband left the bedroom at about 3 months. I'm sure I had PPD, but never went to see anyone because I didn't even want to chance a therapist telling me to CIO (shows you how irrational I was). I'll send some hugs your way; I know how horrible this can be and how resentful and angry you can get towards your little one/partner/yourself/life in general.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: if you're CDing, the feeling of needing to pee could be enough to keep him from going back to sleep or enough to wake him up in light sleep. We did conventional PLing with my son and he's not night trained yet, but he still wakes up to pee about twice a night. At that age, he would wake, nurse, pee, get changed, nurse to sleep. If he nursed all night long like yours, it would be a vicious cycle of nursing and peeing all night long! We eventually did a wool pad under a him with a cloth diaper, no cover and changed him as soon as I knew he was wet. I guess they're supposed to "get used to" the feeling, but mine never did. I'm not saying it's a cure-all, but maybe something to consider.

I eventually figured that my son was not a sleeper, although I also did consider seeing a sleep specialist. Please keep us posted on how it goes if you go that route.

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#132 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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That actually makes sense. It is miserable, and lots of us mama of spirited/sleep fighters have been there, but it makes sense. Being overtired leads to high cortisol while sleeping, which means broken sleep and early rising.

The real question is: How was yesterday different? Or has he been in a string of bad nights? What could be his triggers? Too much activity? You or DH stressed? A delayed or missing nap? Did life happen and bedtime was pushed back 15 mins? Most kids can take it in stride. There are others who temperament just does let them.
Yesterday wasn't too different. He was incredibly grumpy most of the day, though, but I made sure he had good naps. But, Aaron's Dad came over in the evening, and maybe that was enough to make him too overstimulated? He did bad Monday night too, though. And there was nothing that I know of that could've caused it.... *sigh*

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#133 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I just want to offer hugs, mama. I didn't read all the responses but scanned through and read yours and some made me want to cry remembering our similar experiences with ds. It is so hard and traumatic. Sleep deprivation is damaging for everyone. Don't know what I can offer other than hope. Ds was the worst at about 8-10 months. I was desperate. Then he nightweaned himself (at 10m) after a stomach bug left him so tired he slept through the night for two nights. It's been slowly getting better since and now at 19 months he only wakes 1-2times a night. HOPE!!!
One BIG improvement we made was to sidecar his crib to our bed (at about 10m). He was close but our movement didn't disturb him and he seemed to like stretching out in his own space, but still close to mama. We didn't CIO at all.
Good Luck!
eta: Another lifesaver was dh would take over baby duty on the weekend mornings so I could sleep in for 2-3 hours. Bliss!

It is actually nice to hear that 8-11 months was the worst. Cuz so far that has been the case for us, and I'm hoping that once 11-12 months hit, he will start sleeping a little better!

I have been considering putting his mattress on the floor in our room, also trying to convince DH to get us a King bed. I feel like one of those may help us some....

DH does take Liam out on the weekends for a couple hours in the morning and lets me sleep in. It is amazing.

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#134 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
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i know you are feeling desperate but i would NOT try either that valerian or cio...both have serious side effects.

you could look for a naturopathic doctor. may not be a ped but still may have some ideas. here is one place to look for one: http://heartspring.net/naturopathic_directory.html
Thank you for that link!

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#135 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I also have to respectfully disagree that you should try CIO in order to appease a doctor. It is a medical professional's prerogative to be insulted or put off by what you do or don't do, and really, you have no control over his/her feelings. As the parent, you are the expert on the subject of your child and your family, so if you say CIO won't work, or that it doesn't suit you philosophically, then *end of discussion*, thankyouverymuch medical professional, and let us move on to discuss *medical* issues related to night waking.

I was also thinking of Dr. Sears' list of possible causes of extreme night waking and wondering if any of these slightly more unusual ones might apply to your little guy:
  • sensitivity to polyester or other irritating sleepwear
  • nasal allergies to dust, lint, pollen, perfume, etc.
  • UTI
  • anemia
  • too hot
  • too cold

He is definitely more sensitive than most to his sleeping conditions. We've tried sleeping him in just a diaper, as well as a diaper and cotton t-shirt. He does best in the diaper and t-shirt. He gets too hot a lot, so we got a fan and a new comforter. He does have nasal allergies to dust. I need to clean our room again....

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#136 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by SactoMommy View Post
I've been following this post for a while, although I haven't read all the responses. My 2yo was very similar to yours, woke every 30 min or so most nights until he was 18 mo. He cried, couldn't go back to sleep even from nursing, would wake at the sound of the fan coming on, etc. We were also desperate, although I was the only one sleep deprived because my husband left the bedroom at about 3 months. I'm sure I had PPD, but never went to see anyone because I didn't even want to chance a therapist telling me to CIO (shows you how irrational I was). I'll send some hugs your way; I know how horrible this can be and how resentful and angry you can get towards your little one/partner/yourself/life in general.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned: if you're CDing, the feeling of needing to pee could be enough to keep him from going back to sleep or enough to wake him up in light sleep. We did conventional PLing with my son and he's not night trained yet, but he still wakes up to pee about twice a night. At that age, he would wake, nurse, pee, get changed, nurse to sleep. If he nursed all night long like yours, it would be a vicious cycle of nursing and peeing all night long! We eventually did a wool pad under a him with a cloth diaper, no cover and changed him as soon as I knew he was wet. I guess they're supposed to "get used to" the feeling, but mine never did. I'm not saying it's a cure-all, but maybe something to consider.

I eventually figured that my son was not a sleeper, although I also did consider seeing a sleep specialist. Please keep us posted on how it goes if you go that route.

-

Leah, mom to Andrew 3/31/07 and Jane, 3/1/09. AP, BF, BW, CD, EC

Thanks for this. We actually use sposies (the ONE thing about parenting Liam that is convenient.. we tried CD for a week and I just couldn't handle it) but I have thought that it was probably a vicious cycle of nursing/peeing/etc cuz he wakes up with a soaking wet diaper in the mornings!

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#137 of 145 Old 06-03-2009, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thank you everyone for your continued support, advice, and responses. : It is so wonderful to have somewhere to go and talk with moms who have BTDT, and can offer sympathy and advice and just to let me ramble if I need to. You all have been amazing!

This morning we got a nice long 2-hour nap! : We slept together, so I know he woke up a few times during the nap, but went right back to sleep and didn't disturb me much, which was great. Then we headed to my grandma's for the afternoon and swam for a few hours. Liam loved the water, and had a great time. He was really happy today, which is the first in a week or two! He did miss his afternoon nap, though, but is asleep now and I think he is out for the night. :

After reading more of people's responses, and in my other thread, I am thinking I will not go see a sleep specialist. It seems there is just no research/support for infants who DON'T sleep. Only CIO advice. So it seems it will be something we will have to work through on our own. Right now he is cruising/pulling up and trying to walk, so I think that may have something to do with it. I really think he is a smart smart boy, and his brain just works overtime, and he just has such a hard time sleeping because his brain won't shut off. I will just have to keep doing what I can to help him sleep, and get as much sleep as I can myself. It has to get better at some point, right? I just keep praying everyday that God will give me the strength to get through the day, and so far He has been faithful and has gotten me through. It has been so hard, but I know these times are fleeting and soon I will look back and won't remember all of these sleepless nights and I will miss snuggling with my (not so) tiny baby at night.

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#138 of 145 Old 06-08-2009, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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So, as you know we had blood tests done for allergies, and the results are more frustrating than helpful. He tested only slightly positive for soy (a .8 on a 100 scale) and scallops. Nothing for dairy or wheat. I talked with his ped, she said that these are not gut (GI) allergies, and that there are no tests for gut allergies.

So I feel like we are back to square one. Also, he doesn't have any SCREAMING allergy signs as of right now (and I haven't been following any ED this past week or two) other than his sleeping. No rashes, diahrea, etc. He's just fussy and doesn't sleep.

UGH. :

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#139 of 145 Old 06-08-2009, 06:22 PM
 
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I know it is frustrating to not be able to "name" what is wrong, but I think you should look at this as good news. Your baby is not in pain and will not have to deal with food allergies and you can go back to eating a normal diet! (unless of course when you do that he starts to show signs of food allergies...)

BTW did you get my pm about the naturopath in my town? She might be able to help you with the melatonin idea...

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#140 of 145 Old 06-08-2009, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I know it is frustrating to not be able to "name" what is wrong, but I think you should look at this as good news. Your baby is not in pain and will not have to deal with food allergies and you can go back to eating a normal diet! (unless of course when you do that he starts to show signs of food allergies...)

BTW did you get my pm about the naturopath in my town? She might be able to help you with the melatonin idea...
Well I don't know that he is not in pain... his belly may still be reacting to things, and that won't show up on the tests... ughhh.

You can actually get melatonin at the grocery store.. I saw it there the other day.... so if I do decide to go that route I will speak with the naturopath you suggested to find out how much, etc..... but I am kind of using that as a last resort right now....

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#141 of 145 Old 06-08-2009, 06:53 PM
 
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I was one of those who earlier in the thread shared our experience with melatonin and our decision to delay use until toddlerhood.

That said, here is some research on its use in infants as young as 6 months.
http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/melinchilwsl.html

There is also a thread in the special needs forum of MDC with some great links. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=815101

I am so sorry you are going through this.

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We had yet another night of 10+ wakings, and up this morning at 5 AM!! Oh, and he wouldn't go to sleep last night until 9 PM!! That is only 8 hours of BROKEN SLEEP!

I will look up Valerian tincture and see what I can find on it. Maybe I need to find a holistic ped (do those exist??). I posted another thread on seeing a sleep specialist. I dont even know of any in my area, or if they'd be able to help or just tell me to let him CIO. WHY isn't there more support and more answers for babies who don't sleep!? WHY is it always assumed that they don't sleep because they are being manipulative and need to CIO? :

This is a serious problem. It is deeply affecting our family and our quality of life. There HAS TO BE an answer other than to let him CIO.
I know all to well what your going through. I went through the same thing with my now 3 yr old. He had reflux and dairy allergies until he was 9 months old. Well, still has the dairy allergy, but reflux gone at 9 months. At 5 months he was getting such little sleep that he actually started having tremours that I thought were seizures. At that point I let him stay latched on and nurse all night long. That worked until he was probably 8 months old and then like your baby he started waking every hour or so and screaming out. I also do not like cio and so I went to the library and got every baby sleep book that was anti-cio and started reading. I then prayed for guidance and this is what we did. I will say there was crying involved because he wasn't getting what he wanted, but he was in no way scared. Okay, I'll explain it all so it makes more sense. I put my now 5 yr old in the room with dh and turned on a white noise machine very loud for them. I then put a mattress in the room where I wanted ds to sleep. We also had a white noise machine going in that room. At the time I wanted him to go to sleep I would do a routine which for us was putting on jammies, singing a song, and praying. I would then nurse him and lay him down in his crib. As he would stand up I would lay him back down and say night night. It took quite some time, but once he would lay down and stay down I would rub either his back or belly depending on which way he was laying in large circles. He did cry during the process. Then once he would wake up the process would start again. The first two nights I did let him nurse otherwise you get engorged. Nap time I did the same thing, but never did it for more than an hour and if he didn't go to sleep, I just didn't bother after an hour. I was most concerned at first about night time sleep. I also always let him come to bed with me when he woke about an hour or so before the family got up. That way he still got snuggle time with mommy. That was something he actually weaned himself from. A few of the most important things are if you start getting aggraviated to the point you think you are going to hurt your baby, you need to leave the room and cool off. Wheather that means someone else takes over or you just leave baby until you calm down. That part I hated, but my dh wouldn't help me and I knew if I didn't leave I was going to lose it. I think the most important thing also was to keep a journal. If it would not have been for that journal I would never have seen the progress. It was little at first, but it was there. I would write down when you first started the process, when baby went to sleep, when baby woke and so on. It took us a few weeks if not a month, but for me it was so much better than cio. After the entire process of me staying consistent it worked and he has been sleeping through the night for quite some time now and taking naps too. He only wakes when he has night terrors or has had dairy to eat. I will say my opinion is that babies with reflux learn to wake frequently due to the pain and you have to gently help them learn to sleep again. We now see a kinesologist that has helped with the night terrors and had I known him then I would have probably started there. Hopefully I haven't left anything out of what we did. My son was a hard case and it worked for him and we tryed EVERYTHING. Let me know if you do try it and if it works for your baby. I would not try cio and don't feel what I did was cio. Even in Dr. Sears book he says when a parent is there gently helping the child to sleep it's not cio. Good luck
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#143 of 145 Old 06-10-2009, 11:14 AM
 
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at 9 months, my kids gave me great difficulty with sleep. naps were short 20-45 minutes twice a day, and bed time was awful. Transitioning to 1 nap a day yielded 1 long nap, and bed time became easier. Both transition around 9-10 month to 1 nap right after lunch and an early bedtime (7-7:30 and sometimes occasionally earlier until they got a few months older)

Now my 21 month old is still a horrible sleeper, but for different reasons now. She naps great at daycare, but only sometimes will nap at home. Bed time is awful, and she also wakes a million times at night. I am hoping with time that it will get better. But we went through plenty of nights with her waking every 45 minutes to an hour, so I know how you feel. Most nights even now, she is up 4-6 times per night. We've had a couple nights recently where she was only up 3 times and it was heaven!
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#144 of 145 Old 06-20-2009, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Well, I just got home last night from our week vacation with family. As you know I was REALLY worried about Liam sleeping while we are there, as we would not have our rocking chair! Well, HE DID GREAT! : He actually slept BETTER than EVER!

We came up with a routine of me nursing him in bed, and then DH held him and walked him around the room. IT WORKED! And, we are actually planning to start using that routine instead of the rocking from now on!

Also, he took his first steps!!! 6 in a row!!!! :

Catie belly.gif- Happy wife to Aaron stillheart.gif(01.05), mama to Liambikenew.gif(08.08), and Ian jammin.gif (11.10)! homebirth.jpgnocirc.giffamilybed1.gif and joy.gif due Feb 2013 with blessing #3!

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#145 of 145 Old 06-21-2009, 08:36 PM
 
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Wonderful!

Happy wife to DH superhero.gifand mama to DS signcirc1.gif11/05 and DD energy.gif8/07.
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