6 mo. died after CIO episode - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 108 Old 01-21-2004, 02:05 AM
 
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Cultural relativism is all very well and good ("dont judge others, none of us is perfect, I'm sure they loved their kids, it's the experts' fault, not theirs") but where do you draw the line? Are there any lines? What about all the devout Christians who honestly believe it is God's way to beat their children with belts? What about the mothers all around the world (not only in Africa, but also in Indonesia, etc.) who allow, nay, require their daughters to undergo female genital mutilation because it's "cleaner" (and hey, let's not even get into male circumcision in this country). Should we blame "experts" and cultural forces? Yes. But there is also such a thing as parental and personal responsibility.

I believe these parents are morally culpable for the death of their baby, even if they were never held legally accountable. I am not perfect, but I don't believe I am required to be perfect in order to have values by which I can judge whether an action is right or wrong. If we were required to be perfect in order to set values and standards, we'd be living in an anarchic society.

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#62 of 108 Old 01-21-2004, 02:53 AM
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the problem is, in those cultures where FGM is still being performed, families that have gotten smart and not done it, have found that their daughters can't get married because they are "unclean." So these teenaged and young women who were spared the surgery can't get married in their culture because of pressure from their betroved's families.

So, some are resorting to having the surgery.

And those who were forced to have it as a child - those ones are getting married.

So sad really... and shameful. Stupid patrionic mysoginistic sadistic culture.
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#63 of 108 Old 01-21-2004, 02:54 AM
 
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Originally posted by Casimir's_Mama
Don't you think that the parents already feel lower than low?
Why should I care how the parents feel? At least they're alive. Which is more than can be said for their poor baby, who just wanted some comfort. These parents deserve contempt and nothing else. And now they won't have to worry about responding to a crying baby anymore.
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#64 of 108 Old 01-21-2004, 04:02 AM
 
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So sad this happened. I still can't quite comprehend it.

None of us can know what really happened that night, nor what the family was thinking or going through then or now. As many of you have said, we've all had times when we thought we'd reached our breaking point.

I myself had to let my daughter (now 18 mo/.) sleep in her crib when she was 7 mo. because she wanted to nurse every 1-2 hours and as a single mother I just couldn't function anymore on no sleep. But during the transition, I could only let her cry for about 1-5 minutes tops before I went to her to hold her, turn on her lullaby music, nurse her and sing her to sleep. She actually now loves her bed after only a few days of getting used to it, and will go to it to climb in and likes to hang out and play before going to sleep sometimes. But that is another topic...

The reason why I'm posting a reply is because I wish that we could take all of this energy we are building up on this issue and channel it to do some good. As sad as it is, that baby is dead. It was 14 years ago.

There are many babies that are now alive and being born everyday. Let's talk to our neighbors, friends, family about the values of being there for our children, through all stages of their development. Let's be good examples. Let's use our love and compassion that moves us to be so outraged about this baby to help other families. In this forum, what good does it do to blame these parents or even the so called "experts" who promote CIO? Does it bring back that baby? Does it help other babies not have to suffer through CIO? It only helps others if we promote the value of not using CIO by our own example, by practicing love, compassion, and understanding.

The only thing that will come from blame, anger, and vengence is blame, anger, and vengence.

Love,
kb
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#65 of 108 Old 01-21-2004, 05:48 PM
 
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ITA. You have to start with yourself and your family. Then be an example to others. It is horrible and it's natural to be outraged but we must "gently educate".

Amy - Blessed wife to Jesse (the best dad in the world), mother of 10 on earth plus 8 in heaven.   PROUD to be a Catholic! : winner.jpg familybed2.gifhomeschool.gif

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#66 of 108 Old 01-21-2004, 09:01 PM
 
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This made my stomach drop! I feel so terrible for everyone involved. Baby, parents, kids, etc......hopefully their tragic story will help others that feel that crying it out is a good solution.
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#67 of 108 Old 01-22-2004, 02:44 AM
 
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I totally agree with Casimir's Mama. I can't believe some of the responses I've read. Who are any of us to sit in judgement? Heaven forbid something as ghastly as this were to happen to any one of us here and we be judged in the same manner. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. The bottom line is that at the end of the day we are all commenting about an incident that was brought to us through media. NONE of us were there, NONE of us know all the details.
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#68 of 108 Old 01-22-2004, 03:06 AM
 
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One of the reasons I would not CIO or even entertain the idea is because I moved in to military housing right after one baby died because of asphyxiation. The parents went out to the patio so they did not have to hear/listen. When the baby quieted they though she was finally asleep, in reality it had vomited and choked.

I was not pregnant at the time but I never left my baby cry unwatched. I will admit because of my own poor self and lack of support, that I sat my son down in a crib and walked across the room to re-group, but he never cried unwatched.
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#69 of 108 Old 01-22-2004, 03:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreadmama


The only thing that will come from blame, anger, and vengence is blame, anger, and vengence.
ITA
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#70 of 108 Old 01-22-2004, 12:40 PM
 
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"Heaven forbid something as ghastly as this were to happen to any one of us here and we be judged in the same manner"

This would never happen to me as I don't ABUSE my child!

Shawna, married to Michael, mommy to Elijah 1/18/01, Olivia 11/9/02, and Eliana 1/22/06
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#71 of 108 Old 01-22-2004, 06:07 PM
 
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Boy Heavenly I hope you are right, but I think you are forgetting something. There is NO evidence that the CIO and the death were related. None. They happened the same night. That was it. We don't konw if the baby died at 4 am when he stopped crying, or went to sleep. He could have died 3 hours later and the two things were totally unrelated. We don't know if the parents checked on the baby until 4. We don't know a lot of things about this. We do know, however, that SIDS doesn't seem to discriminate much.

No one understand all of what goes into SIDS. Yes, some incidents that are labled SIDS are something else. And some are just plain unexplained. It happens to children in cribs and it happens to children who co-sleep. As far as all of the research done so far, any one of us could lose an infant to SIDS. The jury is still out on whether cosleeping reduces or increases the risk. Ditto on a wide variety of other factors. So, please, lets be a little less hasty in judging others. And hug our kids extra tight tonight as they go to sleep.
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#72 of 108 Old 01-23-2004, 04:12 PM
 
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I would have to say after all the compassionate support I have received here, I was very suprised to read some of the posts here and their total lack of compassion.

Perhaps if someone had compassionatly reached out to those tired and distraught parents to offer them the kind of support we get from each other here, they never would have resorted to such desperate measures.

I can understand with all the judgmental posts here, why we AP inclined parents are often judged with an equal amount of hostility. Whoever among us can bring ourselves to break that cycle of judgment and anger and hostility might just change the world one family at a time.

Kate

Crunchy Mama to the Triad of Chaos-- DD1 (9/03) & the Twinadoes- DS and DD2 (6/06)
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#73 of 108 Old 01-23-2004, 06:51 PM
 
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Marsupialmom, I want you to know that I told your story about the baby who died from choking on his vomit to a friend of mine & it saved her baby's life. You posted this story a long time ago (I think it was you anyway) on the parentsplace breastfeeding board, and I told it to my friend. The very next day she couldn't get her son to take a nap. He was screaming & crying. She was very sleep deprived & she very much wanted to put him in his crib & walk away...just for a few minutes to cool off & then go back to him. She's a wonderful AP mom. Because I had told her this story, she made herself stay in the room talking to her baby after she laid him down (though, God knows, she wanted a break & was feeling really frustrated). Less than a minute after she put him down he began gagging & choking, and she picked him up & pulled a chunk of kleenex out of his mouth. He had managed to get a chunk of kleenex somehow when he was playing earlier & was now coughing it back up. If she had not been there he would not have been able to cough it out. She told me this story the very next week & thanked me for passing the story you told on to her.

So, thank you. I think this is the way we mothers can help keep these things from happening to other babies. We need to tell these stories, sad as they are, to help each other.
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#74 of 108 Old 01-23-2004, 09:35 PM
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That makes me want to cry. I really don't understand how someone could let there kids cry and cry and not comfort them? Babies are not capable of comforting themselves. I can't wait until my daughter is born so my husband and i can snuggle with her all night

She'll never have to be alone and upset and scared
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#75 of 108 Old 01-23-2004, 11:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Momto1000,
Your link isn't working for some reason.
I think it's against board policy to bring a separate thread into a new discussion, but you'd have to double check. I'm not too sure.
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#76 of 108 Old 01-23-2004, 11:33 PM
 
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the_anti_grrrl, sounds like you and your husband are going to make wonderful parents.

There's nothing better than comforting and snuggling your babies.
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#77 of 108 Old 01-24-2004, 12:27 AM
 
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Originally posted by moonshine
This makes me absolutely sudder. Spanking an 11 month old notwithstanding, but taking her diaper off to do it????????????? The vision of it makes me sick to my stomach.
Ditto! It made me queasy to read that. Any kind of punishment that involves removing clothing is sexual abuse to me. I know some may disagree, but that is just how it feels to me.
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#78 of 108 Old 01-24-2004, 01:16 AM
 
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Momto1000 discussing one thread on another like that isn't allowed.

Lisa, mama to Orion (7) , Fiona Star (born sleeping @ 38wks 12/6/08) , our bitty (m/c 7/27/09) , and Charlotte Athena (11/5/10)
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#79 of 108 Old 01-24-2004, 02:44 PM
 
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oops...sorry. I didn't know that rule. :

I just thought it was strange for someone to be judging when they themselves seem to be the person living in the glass house.

Thanks for the setting me on track.


Now how can I word this without stepping on toes? How about this? Heavenly...are you sure this could NEVER happen to you? Maybe you should think back about mistreating your children.
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#80 of 108 Old 01-24-2004, 04:35 PM
 
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Originally posted by Momof1000`
Now how can I word this without stepping on toes? How about this? Heavenly...are you sure this could NEVER happen to you? Maybe you should think back about mistreating your children.
Um, maybe you should rephrase this. It sounds like you are accusing Heavenly of something and I am sure that is not your intent.

MM
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#81 of 108 Old 01-24-2004, 04:44 PM
 
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Okay...that seems reasonable.

ummmmm...Before passing judgement...reread your previous posts. Besides, who are we to judge? We are just plodding along hoping that we don't ever find ourselves in one of these situations.
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#82 of 108 Old 01-24-2004, 06:04 PM
 
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I understand that parents get exhausted. We have all been there, all felt so tired that we could barely keep our eyes open and honestly, for a while there I have no idea how I functioned on so little sleep. But leaving a baby crying for half the night isn't going to get anybody any sleep (unless you are wearing earplugs I guess) I can't imagine not going in to at least comfort a crying baby. there were at least 4 adults in the house and not one of them could have went in and rubbed his back? or rocked him a bit?

And I really don't understand why it is so forced upon us that babies must sleep through the night : I don't sleep through the night. But when I wake up, I know I am in bed and it is still night time and I should probably go back to sleep. When a little baby wakes up, I imagine it would be a bit scary being alone in a dark room. Maybe their blanket fell off and they are cold? Maybe they are hungry?


**By the way, for those who haven't read the article, the author of it was the mother who lost her baby. So although it may have been slightly edited for publishing, the story was told in her own words.
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#83 of 108 Old 01-24-2004, 06:35 PM
 
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I couldn't agree with you more. Babies cry for a reason...ALWAYS. Sometimes it is just to see that we are still there and sometimes there is really something wrong. Who wants to miss the opportunity of holding their baby and comforting her back to sleep? You are that baby's world, don't ever forget that.

Sure, we get tired (exhausted), we just have to remember that the baby has no idea how we are feeling. All our baby knows is that she is scared or cold or lonely or hungry. She also knows that when we show up...everything is better.
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#84 of 108 Old 01-26-2004, 03:47 AM
 
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Wow! This is a horrible tragedy.

I can understand some posters view of non-judgement, but it is hard when you cannot understand CIO. I am a single mama who like Dreadmama could only last minutes before responding to my ds. I had to go and put headphones on one time and just could not stand it!! So, even though the CIO and the death were not found to be related I have a deep belief that babies cry for a reason and that ignoring their only way of communicating is wrong.

My heart does go out to this family because of their loss.
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#85 of 108 Old 01-26-2004, 04:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Momof1000`

Sure, we get tired (exhausted), we just have to remember that the baby has no idea how we are feeling. All our baby knows is that she is scared or cold or lonely or hungry. She also knows that when we show up...everything is better.
I think there comes a point at which you have to take into consideration the mental health of the caregiver. I know my breaking point and I think knowing what I can and cannot handle is healthy. If I need a break it is better than hitting my child, kwim?

At some point, I think that primary caregivers have to stop carrying the world on their backs. Everyone needs a break. Everyone needs sleep. Babies do, too. There are ways to encourage good sleep habits that do not leave the child alone to cry, but may involve a crying child (patting the crying child's back, giving a gentle massage, saying soothing words, being nearby to hug if necessary).

I don't get into the judgement of others in a situation like this (Just reading a discussion board for information), but in a hypothetical sense the "facts" are pretty tragic and CIO is just one of the tragedies.

Jesse
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#86 of 108 Old 01-26-2004, 06:14 PM
 
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Originally posted by Amywillo
Ditto! It made me queasy to read that. Any kind of punishment that involves removing clothing is sexual abuse to me. I know some may disagree, but that is just how it feels to me.
I put in a few calls to the CAS here, but I don't know what came of it. I don't go near that woman anymore.
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#87 of 108 Old 01-26-2004, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
 
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While I *do* feel physically ill about this, and anger toward the parents, it's important to keep this event in perspective.
I was the first person to have a child in my immediate circle of friends. I read lots of Dr. Sears, Mothering mag., etc. So I *knew* better. But there were some friends of mine who, without my help, may have never, ever been exposed to AP. If your doctors, your sisters, your friends, and the books you read all preach the same thing... that crying is harmless, that it trains your child to sleep through the night in a matter of days... I can see how someone could buy it if they had no other perspective to go on.
Many people are cut off from their instincts and intuition... men and women alike. It's easy to say this mom should have followed her instincts and her intuition, but some people are taught all that is a load of hogwash, ya know? I was MOST infuriated that there was no mention of why babies nightwake and alternatives to CIO. I guess no one wants to make the mom feel worse than she already does.
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#88 of 108 Old 01-26-2004, 07:49 PM
 
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I think it goes back to the fact that this was a story in a magazine. Alternatives to CIO, night time dangers, etc. weren't covered because they weren't the focus of the article. The main point was moving on after a tragedy. I am certain that the writer, and later the editor, had a word limit and so this sort of information wasn't included because it didn't fit. That's just one reason why you always have to read media stories (in any form) with a major eye toward how these are put together. Even though it was a "first person" story, an editor worked with it, maybe even more than one. Someone made sure it "fit" the style of the magazine, someone else made sure the word limit was observed, someone else did the page layout and so on. All of these people had a say in what was included and what wasn't, especially on a major national magazine like this. Had the same story been covered in, say, Mothering, the emphasis would have been very different, I'm sure.
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#89 of 108 Old 01-27-2004, 08:07 PM
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Nope, this happened about 14 years ago and since then they have adopted 5 kids.




Sad.

I blame the culture more than the parents, the same culture that excused them for letting their baby die like this.

I think there is a dangerous mix in our culture of "authority" and "free speech" where everyone can talk and pose as an expert and be taken seriously. It's the world of "the more convincing lie wins".

Sometimes people trust the wrong people, and take the wrong advice. I know I did. Glad my kid is well now, because my ex could have killed him!
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#90 of 108 Old 01-29-2004, 11:00 PM
 
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I am not one to suggest suing often, but perhaps they should sue Ezzo..... Bring this disgusting and deadly advice to bear it's self out in the courts. So sad! Poor baby! What a terrible way to suffer!
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