6 mo. died after CIO episode - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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Old 01-30-2004, 04:48 AM
 
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It is amazing to me that so many of us are so quick to jump to conclusions and point fingers, when we abhor the same kind of criticism applied to ourselves. The conclusions people have drawn here (that the death was cio-related, especially) are at least as preposterous than the ones the mainstream press draws about co-sleeping. At least there is more than 1 case in 14 yrs. of so-called 'co-sleeping deaths'. How do you think those parents feel? They slept with their baby because they thought it was the right thing, and now their kid is dead. And many are pointing fingers, because - didn't they know that wasn't safe, it shouldn't be allowed, they should have known better, etc. etc. Sure we all know the stats are skewed, the facts incomplete and our children are as safe as they would be in a crib, but not everyone believes or knows that. And none of us here know what happened to that poor child and their family. We certainly have no basis to judge.
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by scoutycat
It is amazing to me that so many of us are so quick to jump to conclusions and point fingers, when we abhor the same kind of criticism applied to ourselves.
Are there right ways and wrong ways to treat children or not? If parents spank their children, do you judge or not? Isn't there any situation you'd consider neglect or aabuse and that the parents should have their children taken away?

I find it hard to believe you don't juge any parent in the world.

Maybe it's easier for you to see that this event was just unfortunate and an accident. Others see it as neglect.
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:49 AM
 
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Originally posted by Leonor
Are there right ways and wrong ways to treat children or not? If parents spank their children, do you judge or not? Isn't there any situation you'd consider neglect or aabuse and that the parents should have their children taken away?

I find it hard to believe you don't juge any parent in the world.

Maybe it's easier for you to see that this event was just unfortunate and an accident. Others see it as neglect.
Yes but I think scoutycats point (correct me if I'm wrong) was the jumping to conclusions bit. It's so easy for us to sit here and make a range of assumptions about the incident, then announce how disgusting and neglectful it all is. We don't know what really happened and I don't see any worth or productivity in making judgements on people without possession of all the facts.
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by Miekesmummy
We don't know what really happened and I don't see any worth or productivity in making judgements on people without possession of all the facts.
The facts seemed obvious to me. The baby was left to CIO the first time and cried for hours before he died. Sometimes you're not there to see but what happened seems pretty obvious. We're not judges but we have our opinions.
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Old 01-30-2004, 09:26 AM
 
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I don't know the facts of the death, but you'd better believe that there was an investigation. Any death of a child by its very nature is more than likely investigated. This was 14 years ago, but I doubt the Drs. would have called this SIDS without investigating first. In the present, you can count on an autopsy, unless the parents have a religious objection.

How do I know this? Because I lost my first DS to SIDS, when he was just 5.5 weeks old.

Like other posters have said, we don't know if the CIO in this article was connected to the death of this woman's child.

Like other posters have said, babies of co-sleepers have also died from SIDS. It happened to me: it was naptime and I nursed DS. He fell asleep and I was putting him down to go pee. I noticed something very wrong, he was turning grey quickly; he was still warm. My DH and I called 911 - he was taken to the hospital. After a thorough autopsy, 4 months later, it was concluded that it was a SIDS death. No medical reason was found for his death. My DS was not crying, not hurt by me, or anything we could find, and yet he is no longer with us.

I have also read of babies dying SIDS deaths in their carseats while in the car, or in strollers while riding through the airport. The article we are talking about is sort of unusual. Many SIDS deaths occur in cribs, that much is "normal", but it is not usually preceeded by a lot of crying. SIDS deaths are typically discovered when their parent or caregiver goes to wake or check on them; most babies seem to have died in their sleep.

Also, my SIDS support group leader says that she met a woman whose baby died during a nursing session. She says that the woman was holding the baby, and her DH noticed the baby turning grey. It was also ruled a SIDS death.

What is SIDS? We don't know. We simply do not know. It is like the term UFO, it is a diagnosis of exclusion; in other words, the babies death was NOT caused by dehydration, strangulation, blood disorder, malnutrition, pneumonia, fill in the blank ________. SIDS is when the Drs. say they just don't know what caused the baby's death, period, end of story.

As for cosleeping reducing the risk of SIDS, you will find studies slanted both ways, but the evidence and parents wisdom suggests that it is safer to sleep with your baby. My SIDS support group leader feels that sleeping with baby in the same room (in a crib, if you prefer) may also reduce the risk. Dr. Sears has written on this, too. Other ways to reduce the risk? Have a full-term baby, have $$ in the bank (some studies say that there is a socio-economic factor, with the poor having a greater risk of SIDS), nurse your baby, put your baby on its back to sleep. Remember however, that we don't know what causes SIDS.
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Old 01-30-2004, 09:48 AM
 
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I am sitting here at 10 to 7 in the morning, crying my eyes out for the people involved. I do not believe in CIO and I have my gripes about co-sleeping as well, but I don't think that that is the point. The child is dead. End of story, and no matter who is to blame, that is a truly sad loss.


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Old 01-30-2004, 10:24 AM
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tessamami, I'm sorry for your loss.

But the baby in the story cried for hours before he died. Let's not pretend it was different.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:30 AM
 
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Leonor, of course the CIO was terrible. I don't want anyone to think that there is anything we can do about SIDS. It is not preventable. There is no screen for it. You can do everything wrong and it could happen, and everything right and it still can happen.

I think CIO is terrible, but I don't think we need charge this mom with murder.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by tessamami
I think CIO is terrible, but I don't think we need charge this mom with murder.
I'm just shocked that CIO wasn't given much importance in that case and the parents were allowed to adopt.
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Old 01-30-2004, 10:53 AM
 
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The parents were allowed to adopt because it was a SIDS death, not a murder.

As for the CIO, it is an accepted practice for many in this country. Is there anyone here who knows about adoption and whether CIO is considered as a sign of abuse? How much CIO before it is considered abusive?
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Old 01-30-2004, 07:19 PM
 
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Ugh. That is sooooo sick! That was not SIDS that baby died of. He cried himself to death! Those people should not have been allowed to adopt and should have had other kids taken away. THat is plain neglect mixed with abuse. STUPID!!!

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Old 01-31-2004, 01:13 AM
 
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Miekesmummy got what I meant. CIO is not my idea of good parenting, but it is widely accepted and not considered abuse. SIDS has *nothing* to do with CIO. It is ludicrous to decide that a baby cried itself to death based on 2 sentences of a story that you heard from a friend that was briefly alluded to in a magazine article she read about something else. If more people were able to think critically and would stop jumping to emotional conclusions with no factual basis whatsoever, maybe co-sleeping, bf'ing, cloth diapering and gd would be more mainstream. And if we are at all interested in having those things become mainstream, we had better not jump to emotional conclusions with no factual basis ourselves or we will deserve to be called flakes.

Leonor: You said "Are there right ways and wrong ways to treat children or not? If parents spank their children, do you judge or not? Isn't there any situation you'd consider neglect or aabuse and that the parents should have their children taken away?" @@ Of course there are. I don't judge spankers, though, they are IMO misled but doing what they know. And just because people are terrible/neglectful/abusive parents doesn't mean they are monsters or evil, but their children should be protected from them of course. It's not a judgement, it's simply the way it is.

"I find it hard to believe you don't juge any parent in the world. "
Believe what you want. If there is one thing that I have learned as a parent it is that you don't know what it is like in another's shoes until you've been there. There are so many things I thought I wouldn't do or situations I wouldn't get into that have happened now that I have a hard time judging anyone.
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Old 01-31-2004, 01:27 AM
 
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Scoutycat, you say you NEVER judge anyone unless you have been in thier shoes. Okay. I saw an episode of Montel the other day. 6 Kids were finally taken away from thier foster parents after 4 years of abuse. They were often put in two wire baskets wired shut and thrown in the bottom of the pool until they were just about to die. They were also starved most of the time.When the WERE fed they had to go into the kitchen one by one on thier knees and were spoon fed food, usually oatmeal, straight from the pan off the stove. Steaming hot. If they cried or complaned, they were not fed a drop again for days. How about those shoes?

Ginger

Edited to add: two were twins that were ther since they were tiny babies. Imagine having to get used to a normal life and the set of problems they came with.
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Old 01-31-2004, 04:25 AM
 
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Quote from scoutycat:

'If more people were able to think critically and would stop jumping to emotional conclusions with no factual basis whatsoever, maybe co-sleeping, bf'ing, cloth diapering and gd would be more mainstream. And if we are at all interested in having those things become mainstream, we had better not jump to emotional conclusions with no factual basis ourselves or we will deserve to be called flakes.'

ITA. People here who are finger pointing and sitting up on their moral thrones are not doing the AP cause any favours.

I don't tell people what I do is attachement parenting, people cringe when they hear the term. I'm no better parent than anyone else. Everyone thinks they do what is best for their child, otherwise we wouldn't do it.
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Old 01-31-2004, 05:21 AM
 
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I admit that we are all emotional about this story. Who wouldnt be? It hurts to think of a baby going through that. And I know I did respond emotionally. It is kind of hard not to wonder about someone who lets a baby cry so long though. Certainly he was choking and hiccuping and the whole works. I know also that some people think that AP'ers are judgemental nuts. I live in a town where most people do not AP in most ways. I try to talk to other people about options to bottlefeeding etc, but it is hard when thier defenses are already up. Or when they have simply decided they do not want to do and listen with a closed mind. Some AP'ers will judge me for using disposable diapers on my children. I was using cloth then went to disposables after ds2 was born. I suppose some would say that I have failed at AP'ing. Someone actually told me that awhile back when I was pg with #3 and having a hard time coping with ms, nursing and fatigue. She even told me to give up and try again with the next one.

But to say you never make judgements is wrong. Even if we think about it afterward, we make judgements all the time about things based on what we know, our own opinions and experiences and many other things. We may judge initially then think it through later and may have an aha moment or what have you. I still stand by my beleif that it was not SIDS that baby died of though.

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Old 01-31-2004, 10:47 AM
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Originally posted by Gidget
Okay. I saw an episode of Montel the other day. 6 Kids were finally taken away from thier foster parents after 4 years of abuse.
Yikes! Aren't foster parents usually chosen by social services? It's not the first time I hear horror stories about foster families.
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Old 01-31-2004, 08:59 PM
 
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Originally posted by Gidget
Scoutycat, you say you NEVER judge anyone unless you have been in thier shoes.
Actually, I said I have a hard time judging anyone. It's pretty rare that I have enough information and insight into a situation that I feel I have a basis to judge anyone, even in horrific situations like the one you saw described on Montel. I can't even begin to fathom what would cause people to treat anyone that way, let alone their own kids, but without more information I don't know that they are terrible malicious evil people. Sick, certainly. Evil? Hard to say. Certainly they shouldn't be allowed to have more kids, and should be tried for their actions. I guess it depends how you define 'judging'
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Old 02-01-2004, 12:56 AM
 
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I think judgindg a person or situation goes both ways. If we both saw a woman in a parking lot spank a toddler then yank him or her to the car by the arm I might think that she is an abusive mom who needs to be reported and you may think that she is having a really bad day and could use some help. Either one of us would be right. I cannot imagine why those people did such awful things to thier foster children. I am pretty sure it is not for lack of coping skills(they were trained to do this I am sure) and the system is also to blame for letting it go on. I am certain it was not a bad day, week or even life. I don't know what it was, but they have serious issues and I know most people, especaily trained foster parents, know that kind of abuse affects a person for the rest of thier life.

I did not read the article about the baby that cried all night before dying, but I wonder if that lady meant to say" Look I did that and this happened, I don't want it to happen to someone else. We may never know why she told the interviewer what happened. I do know though that I find it hard to see how someone could let a baby cry so long and hard.Most instinctively want to pick up and hod a crying baby, even someone elses.

Ginger
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