Do you believe newborn tummy sleeping produces SIDS? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-28-2011, 07:04 PM
 
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There is a lot of money thrown at breastfeeding campaigns as well as anti-smoking too, which is great.  Why not do all three if you're concerned about SIDS?  I agree that the risks are small regardless of how a baby sleeps, but each parent has to make that decision themselves and I doubt that families who have lost babies due to SIDS feel like the tiny statistics matter much.  I think your personal hypothesis that you don't think babies were designed "faulty" making tummy sleeping dangerous is meaningless.  You're quite critical of actual research considering you're basing your hypothesis on your own gut feeling and zero research.  I do mean that gently, even though it doesn't sound that way ;).   The  whole bed sharing thing...I just don't think most doctors can wrap their heads around the fact that there are actually people out there who don't sleep with their kids under a huge pile of blankets and pillows, while drunk or high.  Having worked in child welfare, the majority of the cases of bed-sharing deaths do involve dangerous situations which most MDC mamas would never put themselves in.  So, I get that campaign too, though I think more information needs to be provided to people. 

 

Why do you say I've done zero research?  I NEVER said that all babies should sleep on their tummies in a crib.  I expressed what I wanted to express.  It's what this board is about.  I never said babies were faulty.  The argument that we weren't always sleeping in buildings is exactly relevant to what I said. 
 

 


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Old 05-28-2011, 09:20 PM
 
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My daughter didn't just sleep lighter on her back, she didn't sleep at all. Seriously 30 seconds at most was all I could get out of her on her back. On her tummy she'd at least sleep for about 30 minutes-2 hours.  I never worried about her getting in too deep of a sleep because the girl never did sleep! She had a pacifier, and I felt that kept her from putting her face into the mattress too much, and it also kept her from getting into that super deep sleep. (She also would NOT cosleep.)

 

I had to do what was best and put her on her stomach. I felt guilty about it for awhile, but there really wasn't any other choice. I'm a stomach/side sleeper. I just can't sleep on my back at all. I followed all the other suggestions for preventing SIDS, including the pacifier and keeping a fan going in the room. She slept in our room with us, also.

 

Anyway, I do think that tummy sleeping can be a contributing factor, but I also think there are bigger risk factors, also. (Like a parent smoking.) Of course, I have a friend who lost an almost 3 year old daughter to the toddler version of SIDS. There was no explanation given for why the poor little girl died, it was terrible. I think that sometimes, there is just no preventing things like that, no matter what you do.

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Old 05-29-2011, 01:10 AM
 
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I think the important thing to keep in mind here guys (as I can see this getting heated), is that we all do what's best for our babies. Yes, there are mothers out there who are not as dedicated and some who just plain don't care, but MDC mamas are an intuitive and intelligent bunch. I don't think you can dispute that tummy sleeping is related to a higher incidence of SIDS (For whatever reason), research shows it is (even if that relation is not causation). But I also think that most mamas who lay their babies to sleep on their tummies do so after thinking about it carefully and choosing their best option. 

 

I believe a baby should always be laid to sleep on their back first. There's too much research out there suggesting that this is preferable, for me not to. BUT-- I also think it's a valid point that there comes a time when yes, you do need to weigh what is best for your child and your family, and if you have tried back sleeping, and it is NOT working, then there is no shame in switching to tummy sleeping and keeping an extra eye on the baby. And because like I said, we are all smart MDC mamas, I know that the women here who lay their babies tummy to sleep are doing so with care and caution, and because it is the best option for them, not just because they don't care. 

 

Since the breastfeeding issue was brought up, think of it in terms of that. Breast is best. Point blank. It is better for babies. And I will continue to encourage and educate about that for the rest of my life. But-- sometimes there are cases where it is better for the family/mom/baby to discontinue the breastfeeding relationship. Yes you are discontinuing the benefits of breastmilk, yes you are adding risk factors from getting formula instead, but in the case of the MDC mama, you can be almost guaranteed that this is not a decision that has been taken lightly, and that mama is doing the best she can and making the best decision for her family. 


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Old 05-29-2011, 01:42 AM
 
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My brother once joked that the reason no babies die of SIDS on their back is that no baby ever SLEPT on their back! lol.gif Total joke guys, COMPLETE JOKE! I know, I know, *loads* of babies sleep on their backs, and sleep just fine. No need to convince me! But seriously, I do feel that tummy sleeping is a little bit more natural a position for newborns. In the womb they're all curled up. Laying them on their back makes them "stretch out" a little more in a position thats entirely unfamiliar. I'd think being able to flip over with their spine in the same curved position as the womb would feel more comfortable. I'm guessing why this is why some people find their babies sleep better in a swing, car seat, bouncy, etc. Curves their body. What I'm guilty of with my newborns, and thinking about it now I think it was probably more dangerous than tummy sleeping, is laid them propped up on the boppy in a bassinet. Curved their body better a little and they slept well like that. Just for naps though. Problem with this, though, is over time they inched further down and it gets to the point where their chin is tucked too close to their chest! I did watch for that and moved them when they got too far down, but I cringe now. I think I'm going to avoid that with this one!


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Old 05-29-2011, 12:08 PM
 
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Why do you say I've done zero research?  I NEVER said that all babies should sleep on their tummies in a crib.  I expressed what I wanted to express.  It's what this board is about.  I never said babies were faulty.  The argument that we weren't always sleeping in buildings is exactly relevant to what I said. 
 

 



By zero research I meant that you haven't conducted any research studies on SIDS...unless I'm mistaken.  And I didn't say you said babies were faulty.  I said you didn't think babies were faulty and could sleep on their stomachs. 

 

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Old 05-29-2011, 12:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jeninejessica View Post

I think the important thing to keep in mind here guys (as I can see this getting heated), is that we all do what's best for our babies. Yes, there are mothers out there who are not as dedicated and some who just plain don't care, but MDC mamas are an intuitive and intelligent bunch. I don't think you can dispute that tummy sleeping is related to a higher incidence of SIDS (For whatever reason), research shows it is (even if that relation is not causation). But I also think that most mamas who lay their babies to sleep on their tummies do so after thinking about it carefully and choosing their best option. 

 

I believe a baby should always be laid to sleep on their back first. There's too much research out there suggesting that this is preferable, for me not to. BUT-- I also think it's a valid point that there comes a time when yes, you do need to weigh what is best for your child and your family, and if you have tried back sleeping, and it is NOT working, then there is no shame in switching to tummy sleeping and keeping an extra eye on the baby. And because like I said, we are all smart MDC mamas, I know that the women here who lay their babies tummy to sleep are doing so with care and caution, and because it is the best option for them, not just because they don't care. 

 

Since the breastfeeding issue was brought up, think of it in terms of that. Breast is best. Point blank. It is better for babies. And I will continue to encourage and educate about that for the rest of my life. But-- sometimes there are cases where it is better for the family/mom/baby to discontinue the breastfeeding relationship. Yes you are discontinuing the benefits of breastmilk, yes you are adding risk factors from getting formula instead, but in the case of the MDC mama, you can be almost guaranteed that this is not a decision that has been taken lightly, and that mama is doing the best she can and making the best decision for her family. 



I completely agree with this, despite the fact that it probably seems like I am a really strong back to sleep advocate (which I also am in most cases).  I know there are times that it is in a family's best interest to sleep a baby on their tummy.  Reflux is one of those times, or when baby starts rolling over.  I actually considered in my own mind if maybe my sleep deprivation would be less if my son slept on his tummy and considered the risks to both of us of sleep deprivation as well (such as a car accident from being overly tired).  There could come a time in which I have a baby who sleeps so poorly on their back that I might feel it better to sleep them on their stomach so I won't be so tired that I'd be an inattentive driver, etc.  When it comes down to it, yes, families need to make choices based on their whole family's needs.  Ultimately though, the question was if we thought back sleeping is safer than stomach sleeping, and I do firmly believe it is.  The question wasn't "are there times when it is appropriate for a family to decide to sleep their baby on their stomach?" to which I would also say the answer is yes. 

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Old 06-01-2011, 08:22 PM
 
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None of my babies has ever accepted being put down on their backs. I assume this is because 1) their spine isn't ready to be positioned that way (after having been curled up for nine months) and 2) it is an instinctively vulnerable position and they repeatedly startle. I really don't know how people manage to get babies to do it. I was concerned about mattress toxins so I didn't do tummy-sleeping either unless I was nearby and watchful, though that was rare because the thing that felt best to me (because they were clearly most comfortable and observable that way) was to hold them while they slept, unless we were in bed together, in which case they would be somewhat on their sides in the crook of my arm.

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Old 06-04-2011, 01:11 PM
 
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This is a hard one!

I believe that babies do die of SIDS sometimes but not half as often as the info we receive claims. My son died after receiving his second round of childhood vaccines (and a low fall 38 cm off a couch) at 6 months and since he was awake it was not blamed on SIDS but on fate - seriously! I do believe that many doctors will use SIDS as a fall back cause of death and that the numbers are high because of this. A baby that has a fever after a shot or some brain swelling might not be able to wake up when on his/her tummy. Some German research suggests that the SIDS deaths go up within the 2 week period after the routine vaccine schedule compared to any other time during the first year. But again: I do not think that it is just the vax.

But: When DS2 learned to flip onto his tummy and could not flip back I panicked. I wanted to just tie him onto his back until he could flip over to the other side.

All of my kids have been side sleepers and really stable in this position since day 1.


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Old 06-04-2011, 03:09 PM
 
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NONE of my children really tolerated sleeping on their backs. They slept much more soundly and calmly on their bellies. 

As far as SIDS go, I honestly don't fully believe SIDS is anything more than a clinical term to explain infant death that can't be explained any other way by the medical community. I think there are very few true cases of SIDS and many more children that died of something else but it was labeled SIDS instead of a true and accurate reason for their death (whether it was unsafe sleeping, bad parenting, chemicals in the crib mattress, increased risk of breathing issues due to health issues or an under developed system or body part, vaccines...whatever).


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Old 06-04-2011, 05:40 PM
 
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Well that's really what it is... no one is clamining SIDS is a diagnosis. 

 

 

Quote:
From a scientific perspective, the term Sudden Infant Death Syndrome refers to the sudden and unexpected death of an apparently healthy infant, one whose death remains unexplained even after a complete post mortem investigation that includes a full autopsy, an examination of the circumstances of the death, and a review of the case history.
In reality, SIDS is not a diagnosis. It simply refers to a group of infants who, although they looked healthy, died suddenly and for no apparent reason. In other words, the cause of death cannot be established.

 

But that's the problem-- is that there is no one cause. All we have is piles of things which may be contributing to the unexplained deaths of infants. As the pp mentioned, some of them I'm sure aren't technically SIDS- they do have other factors (vaccinations, falls, etc), but the point of trying to reduce SIDS is about trying to eliminate the other possible risk factors that seem to contribute to this deaths that don't make sense. And that's where it's hard to really answer the question-- there's so much more to it than back or tummy sleeping 'causing' an illness or trauma... 

 


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Old 06-05-2011, 03:18 PM
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I don't really follow any anecdotal advice when it comes to my child--by which I mean, "we did it and my baby turned out fine" doesn't really apply.  I much prefer scientific research to back the decisions that I make.  I personally don't think tummy sleeping "produces" SIDS, but to say it does not contribute would be to deny the overwhelming results of scientific research.

 

I keep my child in a carseat in the car because it has been proven to save lives.  I don't spend hours outside in the 99-degree Arkansas heat with him, because doing so would endanger his life.  He may not like either of these things, but he's going to do them.  So personally, when I read that studies show back-sleeping reduces the risks, I am going to make sure that he back-sleeps, because I want to reduce the risk as much as possible.  Same reason my child is never around cigarette smoke, his arms are always exposed when he is sleeping (now that he is too old to say swaddled), his face is never buried in my side, etc.  The best thing I can do for him is to try my hardest to keep this tragedy from affecting him.  And the best and most thorough research we have at this time shows that back-sleeping improves the odds of that happening.

 

The most recent study I have seen showed that this is possible because SIDS can be caused by a lack of serotonin, which signals the child should raise his/her head up when there is a risk of suffocation.  If this research is correct, this means that just because an infant is old enough to lift their head doesn't mean they will.  And serotonin levels are not exactly an observable attribute, so no one knows whether this particular factor might affect their baby.  So instead of gambling with my inability to know whether my baby might lift his head if there is danger, I would rather remove the danger from the equation.

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Old 06-05-2011, 03:45 PM
 
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Do you hold any stock in the tummy sleeping equals SIDS fear? Are there statistics that prove the 'Back to sleep camplagn' prevented SIDS?

 

No i dont.  I let my babies sleep the way they wanted to
 

 


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Old 06-05-2011, 04:20 PM
 
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I believe a baby should always be laid to sleep on their back first. There's too much research out there suggesting that this is preferable, for me not to. BUT-- I also think it's a valid point that there comes a time when yes, you do need to weigh what is best for your child and your family, and if you have tried back sleeping, and it is NOT working, then there is no shame in switching to tummy sleeping and keeping an extra eye on the baby. And because like I said, we are all smart MDC mamas, I know that the women here who lay their babies tummy to sleep are doing so with care and caution, and because it is the best option for them, not just because they don't care. 

 


I agree with this exactly. I do believe that "back is best," but in the case of our oldest, it meant basically NO ONE sleeping, ever. We finally tried him on his tummy and he slept like a dream. I didn't like it, but it preserved our sanity. My second baby was fine with either his back of his side, and I felt much more comfortable with that. (At least, I wasn't staring at him at night and poking him to make sure he was still breathing!)

 

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Old 06-05-2011, 04:39 PM
 
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I'm not trying to be snarky, this is an honest question I always ponder when this question comes up around here and people say they don't believe in the link.

 

If there is no link between the two...what is the payoff for the Back to Sleep Campaign? I understand people not finding vaccine research credible when it is funded by the pharmaceutical companies because they have something to gain from those studies showing vaccines to be positive. So what would be the incentive for SIDS research to favor infants sleeping on their backs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Old 06-05-2011, 06:17 PM
 
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 "In other words, the cause of death cannot be established." Gets to me, if they can't establish the cause of the death how can they say what may or may not contribute to it? They have said all sorts of things, back to sleep, say no to co-sleeping, etc. etc. but no one really knows anything. I think in this term you just have to be smart and do what works best for you and your family. 

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Well that's really what it is... no one is clamining SIDS is a diagnosis. 

 

 

 

But that's the problem-- is that there is no one cause. All we have is piles of things which may be contributing to the unexplained deaths of infants. As the pp mentioned, some of them I'm sure aren't technically SIDS- they do have other factors (vaccinations, falls, etc), but the point of trying to reduce SIDS is about trying to eliminate the other possible risk factors that seem to contribute to this deaths that don't make sense. And that's where it's hard to really answer the question-- there's so much more to it than back or tummy sleeping 'causing' an illness or trauma... 

 



 


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Old 06-06-2011, 11:17 AM
 
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Hi again,

I'm the one who asked how people in Sri Lanka sleep their babies.  I am curious to know this because Dr. James McKenna, the co-sleeping researcher who I'm sure most if not all of you have heard of, talked about how in cultures that co-sleep, SIDS is virtually non-existent.  He notes that the co-sleeping pairs he studies tend to arrange their babies on their backs, which makes nursing access easier, and that the mothers rouse frequently to rearrange their infants - checking blankets, reposition, etc.  When co-sleeping, my girl mostly slept on her side or back because that is how we finished nursing.  Though, I did tummy sleep her during naps starting around 8 weeks when she could roll over consistently.  She never really napped well even after I did that, but it was better.

Interesting discussion.

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Old 06-09-2011, 12:38 PM
 
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I don't really follow any anecdotal advice when it comes to my child--by which I mean, "we did it and my baby turned out fine" doesn't really apply.  I much prefer scientific research to back the decisions that I make.  I personally don't think tummy sleeping "produces" SIDS, but to say it does not contribute would be to deny the overwhelming results of scientific research.

 

I keep my child in a carseat in the car because it has been proven to save lives.  I don't spend hours outside in the 99-degree Arkansas heat with him, because doing so would endanger his life.  He may not like either of these things, but he's going to do them.  So personally, when I read that studies show back-sleeping reduces the risks, I am going to make sure that he back-sleeps, because I want to reduce the risk as much as possible.  Same reason my child is never around cigarette smoke, his arms are always exposed when he is sleeping (now that he is too old to say swaddled), his face is never buried in my side, etc.  The best thing I can do for him is to try my hardest to keep this tragedy from affecting him.  And the best and most thorough research we have at this time shows that back-sleeping improves the odds of that happening.

 

The most recent study I have seen showed that this is possible because SIDS can be caused by a lack of serotonin, which signals the child should raise his/her head up when there is a risk of suffocation.  If this research is correct, this means that just because an infant is old enough to lift their head doesn't mean they will.  And serotonin levels are not exactly an observable attribute, so no one knows whether this particular factor might affect their baby.  So instead of gambling with my inability to know whether my baby might lift his head if there is danger, I would rather remove the danger from the equation.



Totally agree.  My son has always been in a carseat, but we've never been in an accident, so he would have been perfectly fine riding on my lap, Brittney Spears style.  Doesn't mean I am claiming that is what people should do.  Carseats have been proven to save lives and so has back sleeping.  Not personally experiencing SIDS or a car accident doesn't change those statistics. 

 

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Old 06-09-2011, 02:45 PM
 
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According to the AAP, babies that are put on their tummys to sleep are 18 times more likely to die than those placed on their backs.  Studies have shown (and no I don't have any to post - feel free to use Google) that putting a baby on his/her back is more safe.  Newborns don't "decide" or "find" the way they want to sleep.  They are totally helpless.  Why would you risk it? 

 

While it is true that there is no one sure cause of SIDS - and my pediatrician has been part of a study group and one of the ideas is that tummy time causes the child to breathe in too much carbon dioxide - it is a known fact that babies that are put on their backs to sleep are less likely to die in their sleep.  It is even taught at the children's hospital where I work.

 

 


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Old 06-11-2011, 07:56 AM
 
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AE has slept on her belly on my chest since day one, it was the only way she slept.



i think this is very different from a baby belly sleeping on their own though. they take breathing cues from a parent while sleeping. we co-sleep, and i kno wthat if i take a deep breath ds will take a breath right after (hey, i get bored sometimes and had to try it out lol). i don't think that sleeping flat on their belly is a natural position. i belly sleep, but my face is alwaysturned to the side. i can't imagine face down being comfortable. that said, all of my kids have naturally chosen a side-lying position and have all co-slept from birth.

 

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Old 06-11-2011, 10:56 AM
 
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I am not in a position to say whether or not it is related to SIDS, however the reserach seems to have shown that the SIDS cases have gone way down since the "back to sleep" thing started. That being said both my babies were tummy sleepers. They both had reflux and with both I had a scary moment of waking up by mommy instinct and seeing them choking on their own vomit and too little to roll over to empty their mouth and breathe. 


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