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#61 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 06:58 PM
 
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Please take the CIO discussion elsewhere.

Sometimes kids and babes cry. It is the role of an AP/NFLer to help calm and comfort the discomfort in a method that is gentle and promotes compassion.

It has been discussed here before to find the parameter in which the members are comfortable with this discussion and the result is the the rules of this forum

CIO is not allowed to be discussed whatsoever as a method to help your children.

This is probably the only forum where you cannot discuss this as a valid option on the entire internet. Please be considerate of this and take your CIO discussion elsewhere.

Calm~ I do appreciate your effort to move the conversation toward another discription of the issue at hand.

I really don't think that what you described is what the women who are advocating CIO are talking about. What you describe is a loving mom comforting her crying child who happens to be laying down with whispers of love and kindness. You are describing a parent who is in the same room as the crying child, close by, offering love and kindness. This is gentle parenting.

Closing the door and letting the children (developmentally delayed or not) cry themselves to sleep IS CIO and not accepted as valid coversation at MDC. This is A RULE.

Thank you for understanding.
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#62 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 07:00 PM
 
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oh. i didn't realize we weren't supposed to discuss cio (bad term, imo) here. i read the sticky, but it didn't offer rules. sorry about that. i thought this was ap-minded support for nighttime parenting, but didn't realize that precluded discussion of types of night crying, and how we have tried dealing with it. i do get disappointed when friction happens, and helpful discussion becomes otherwise. i try to stay out of topics that i feel really passionate about so as not to heat things up. then again, i do learn a lot from the heated discussions. so i guess i appreciate them. i don't get upset by them.

guess this should go in "life with babe" ?

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#63 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 07:55 PM
 
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I will always offer help to a mom who is about to try CIO, but I consider that a little different to a mom who has already tried it and is proclaiming success. Eventually, all methods would produce a sleeping baby, cos, well, if for no other reason than eventually a baby will fall asleep. I don't mean to "halt" a discussion, it isn't usually my thing, but this thread was doing so well and maybe changing a lurker's mind, then to find a few posts that say it worked for them may swing them back, you know? so, no disrespect intended, just sticking by the thoughts presented that CIO is not very compassionate and yeah, if there is another place even on MDC that talks of it as an option, fine.

Gentle, folks, the future is in our baby's cry.

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#64 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 08:20 PM
 
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I just wanted to put my vote in here as another MDC member who is not comfortable with a debate over CIO. This is the Family Bed and Nighttime Parenting forum, it is not a debate forum. Although debate is healthy, it has it's place and this is not the place. I want to protect MDC as the only online community where CIO is not even in our vocabulary, regardless of the definition.

FYI:

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http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html
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MDC serves an online community of parents and parents-to-be considering, learning, practicing, and advocating attachment parenting and natural family living. Our discussions on the boards are about the real world of mothering and are first and foremost, for support and information and Mothering invites you to read and participate in the discussions. In doing so we ask that you agree to respect and uphold the integrity of this community. Through your direct or indirect participation here you agree to make a personal effort to maintain a comfortable and respectful atmosphere for our guests and members.
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Mothering celebrates the experience of parenthood as worthy of one's best efforts and fosters awareness of the immense importance and value of family life in the development of the full human potential of parents and children. At Mothering we recognize parents as experts and seek to provide truly helpful information upon which parents can make informed choices. Mothering is both a fierce advocate of the needs and rights of the child and a gentle supporter of the parents, and we encourage decision-making that considers the needs of all family members. We explore the reality of human relationships in the family setting, recognizing that raising the heirs of our civilization well is the prerequisite for a healthy society.
Mothering advocates natural family living, including the ancient way of being with babies and children that is known today as attachment parenting. This way is reliant on the inherent integrity of children and the inviolate intuition of parents. The family is the dominion of parents and children and authoritative knowledge rests with them. This website is a place to safely explore all the aspects involved in such a parenting philosophy.
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#65 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 08:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mother_sunshine
just wanted to put my vote in here as another MDC member who is not comfortable with a debate over CIO. This is the Family Bed and Nighttime Parenting forum, it is not a debate forum. Although debate is healthy, it has it's place and this is not the place. I want to protect MDC as the only online community where CIO is not even in our vocabulary, regardless of the definition.

FYI:

From the MDC User Agreement:
http://www.mothering.com/mdc/mdc_useragreement.html
.
I have to agree, I was happy to see that MJ did feel bad for her actions and talked with her sweet DD about it and put away the crib and the threats- however, I do not in any way think that CIO is ever a okay thing- as I am sure people read from my first post I do think that a debate on CIO is not in good terms of a place like MDC- and I am glad that MJ wanted clarification on crying and parenting. Crying is normal and natural- heck, I cired all day on Wed.... But I have to agree that this is not the place to ask for support for CIO.

[B][I]~Ang~ Mom to 2 sport-head crazy girls: Rainey and Breeze  and my little lost love- @18 weeks with gestational age of 7 weeks
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#66 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 09:03 PM
 
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Did I miss the point of the OP? I thought she was coming here to ask our opinions on whether or not CIO was okay for any reason. Where would one post this question if not in the nighttime parenting forum?

I'm not necessarily equating the two, but if for some odd reason a parent thought it okay to spank a child b/c they weren't sleeping and wanted to know alternatives, wouldn't they come the the Nighttime Parenting forum?
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#67 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 09:06 PM
 
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I can only speak for myself, but I wasn't talking about the OP.

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#68 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 09:07 PM
 
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Mountain-I just re-read your post and I really had know idea that a discussion of CIO was not allowed anymore. Geesh. For some reason, I am kinda shocked by this. But I also just had a baby less than three months ago so my brain is shot...

I just don't understand why the discussion isn't allowed. I'm really trying to figure this out. There are discussions on spanking in the discipline forum. Help for long-term spankers, etc., to help them find an alternative...
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#69 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 09:09 PM
 
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Thanks, Calm...just trying to wrap my sleep-deprived brain around this debate (or non-debate).
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#70 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 09:10 PM
 
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And yes, I will read the rules to help clear up my confusion. Wait-this thread isn't about me, is it???

I've been known to monopolize...
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#71 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 09:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearsmama
I just don't understand why the discussion isn't allowed. I'm really trying to figure this out. There are discussions on spanking in the discipline forum. Help for long-term spankers, etc., to help them find an alternative...
Bearsmama, I think it is more the stories of how CIO worked for people. We are not here to support such actions and in doing that we can not not talk about why CIO worked, how it worked or why someone would use/support it. MDC is about kindness and respect for all members of a family and CIO does not fit into that mindset. I think it would be fine if a mother came here and said- "We use CIO, and I hate it, I feel so bad, what else can I do- I DONT WANT TO DO THIS" then the talk of CIO and the different ways to work around this can be talked about.

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#72 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 09:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by crayon
Bearsmama, I think it is more the stories of how CIO worked for people. We are not here to support such actions and in doing that we can not not talk about why CIO worked, how it worked or why someone would use/support it. MDC is about kindness and respect for all members of a family and CIO does not fit into that mindset. I think it would be fine if a mother came here and said- "We use CIO, and I hate it, I feel so bad, what else can I do- I DONT WANT TO DO THIS" then the talk of CIO and the different ways to work around this can be talked about.
YUP, thats what I meant by my post. My complaint is not about the mothers that come here for guidance and help because they used CIO and are sick with guilt for doing so, knowing they resorted to a parenting skill that is not an Ap skill.

It is the parents that come into the forum, trying to offer examples of how CIO worked for them or that their children are now sleeping better because of it.

Advocating or offering stories of success with cio are not welcome or allowed.

But one is not hard pressed to find a forum that accepts and advocates this discussion.

It is pretty black and white. If one has issue with not being able to discuss CIO as a viable option then its kinda too bad for you.

Again, just so we are all on the same page here, I don't have issue with parents coming onto the forum for help and guidance after discovering that CIO just SUCKS as a parenting tool.

Sorry but CIO makes me uke
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#73 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 11:28 PM
 
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bearsmama no one says in the gd forum that spanking works for them. There are questions and sometimes confessions about spanking, but always in the context of finding alternatives. Offhand I can't think of threads that devolve into arguments over "modified spanking" being more acceptable than "full blown" spanking. I guess I wish that clarity could be reached in this forum.

I realize the hot button is the fact that babies do cry, and the need for sleep can make people feel impatient and desperate. Additionally, the invaluable advice to walk away if you feel your temper escalating towards a crying baby, must be kept separate from the intentional use of walking away to induce sleep. They are *different* issues.

If the OP is only seeking alternatives to CIO, I encourage her to keep asking questions here. The sticky at the top of the forum has some great articles too.

As to the issue of babies and crying, I would strongly recommend some Aletha Solter articles for you to read (also in the sticky).

There were other posts in this thread that clearly stated crying in a crib was an effective sleep tool for a child, and I think that kind of response takes the discussion away from finding alternatives to CIO, which is the purpose of this forum.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#74 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 11:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by heartmama
There were other posts in this thread that clearly stated crying in a crib was an effective sleep tool for a child, and I think that kind of response takes the discussion away from finding alternatives to CIO, which is the purpose of this forum.
Ita
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#75 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 11:32 PM
 
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Heya. I'm just gonna ignore any "heated argument" vibes and try to clarify something. I think most of the people here, even the ones (like me) who claim to use crying it out in some shape or form, are really using what a previous person described as controlled crying. Would we let our child spend twenty minutes crying, terrified, in a crib in some sort of effort to get them to sleep? Of course not. Not only will it traumatize the child, but what kid would want to sleep in a bed where they spent 20 terrifying minutes? A bed needs to be a safe, welcoming place.

On the other hand, do we know when our children (and I mean _children_, not babies) are crying because they don't _want_ something? Yes. Or at least I think I know my kids that well. When we moved Ian and James from our family bed to beds of their own (a gradual process) there were some nights when we heard several minutes of "I don't WANT this" crying. It's the kind of crying I call stubborn crying (if they could speak, I would imagine they would say "but I don't WANT to go to bed this early!", or "but I WANT to sit in the swing for an hour!") Do children always get what they want? No. Do we always give them what they need? Of course. When even a hint of fear or despair entered into the crying/whining, did we go and offer comfort? Of course.

When I say I use "crying it out" as a method of behavior control, please realize that I'm not using it on babies (my kids are almost 3), and that I'm finding as my children age, their special needs dictate that when they want something they can't have (staying up late, or staying in our bed), "no" can't be more than a literal "no" and then an action. I can't explain "why" to them. They simply don't understand language. They do understand when I've set a limit (after the bedtime routine, they go to their beds). When they protest that limit (and they rarely do, because I think my husband and I did a *great* job at the bed transition), I expect to hear a little fussy/pouty crying. I tolerate that crying, and I consider that to be this sort of "controlled crying" someone described. I do it. I feel it's okay.

As a new mom, confronted with the end of two years of co-sleeping, I remember feeling terrified of how people would judge me for tolerating _any_ form of controlled crying. My own behavior for two years, and the kind of parenting I'd always planned to practice, had DRILLED "crying---bad" into my head. What I found (and I'm sure this is different in every child) is that there are different types of crying. My protective mama-bear insincts didn't feel that letting them cry their stubborn cries for a little while before bed was a bad thing. I felt some external guilt because I was seemingly going against the AP doctrine, but my instinct was that my kids were old enough to start learning cooperation and change (they were two). Though we can't discuss it with Ian and James, I know they've never felt fear while crying. They've felt anger, maybe, because Mommy and Daddy stopped doing 100% of what they _wanted_, but they've never felt fear, or abandonment, or anything less than 100% of their _needs_ being met.

Do moms, at the end of their co-sleeping wits, need to be able to come here and ask about crying it out? Yeah, they do. Because for them, they might still have that "crying=bad" in their head. Now, maybe I'm way off the mark here, but as mothers of toddlers I think most of us know there are different types of crying (wants vs. needs, sadness vs. temper tantrums). But if you remember back to when those toddlers were babies, and crying was always bad, it's kind of traumatic for moms to have that brain shift from "crying=bad" to "well, maybe crying can mean all sorts of different things" When that brainshift happens, and they're feeling guilty for not being perfect AP moms, they need to come here and ask if CIO is ever okay.

I know my membership says I'm new, but this is actually my second username (I used to be Elisabeth, back in 01-02), and I've spent many a happy year learning here at the mothering boards. I would hope there isn't anything that's truly _not allowed_ for discussion. Just because CIO is treated as a sort of evil in the view of attachment parenting doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. On the other hand, I think anything we automatically view as bad _should_ be thoroughly discussed and thought through. Whether or not it belongs in this forum, I don't know. That's the moderator's call, for sure.

Anyway. I'm glad someone used the phrase controlled crying. I hope I didn't distort the meaning you intended. I didn't mean to offend anyone for using the term "crying it out." I had no idea it was so offensive to some. It's the term we use around our house, but in our practice it's not loaded with all the negativity that the phrase seems to imply. From now on I'll happily use the term controlled crying, because I think it's a great way to educate. New moms shouldn't be held prisoner to the idea that some crying means that they've failed as a loving parent.

Edited for two things:

"crying=bad" is my way of describing my gut response. When my babies cried, I knew something was wrong/bad, and that I needed to help them/comfort them. Crying, as an action, is of course never bad. It's communication.

I should mention that I haven't been a regular visitor to the Nighttime Parenting forum, and apologize again for using the phrase "crying it out" without realizing the impact it has around here. Had I done a little research before posting, I would have found some other way to describe the practice we use at our house. Though my husband and I call it "crying it out," I feel sure that it's not the awful "CIO" described in this forum.

Please be nice to me, ladies. I'm a good mom, and I don't like to be jumped on. No one (come and live with me!) would look at my parenting and think the negative thoughts I feel seething through these posts.

Whoo! End of gargantuan post.

RedOak ~ Momma to DS (8) , DS (4) , DD (3) , & DD 9/10 ~
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#76 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 11:45 PM
 
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RedOakMama

"Crying is bad" is never a good attitude, even for an infant. This is why so many people recommend reading Aletha Solter on this topic. Some babies need to discharge with crying, and she helps parents honor that need in a way that promotes bonding and security.

If you aren't responding to a cry, it is a manipulation that leaves the child powerless. Deciding whether or not a child "needs" a response is the kind of "You aren't really a person the way I am a person" assumption that feels disrespectful for many people within ap. Crying for a response is not the same as crying for a cookie. And even if my toddler were crying for a cookie, I wouldn't consider ignoring the request altogether the best way to react. I would still respond with an explaination, and distraction if necessary.

I also have the impression you don't compare "a 4 month old crying" for attention, to a "big old toddler" crying for attention. I think this is where you are making an assumption others here don't. My son is 8. I don't think people ever reach an age where we can decide they no longer have the right to expect a response from those around them. As children get older, they can learn how to compromise, and understand others needs. But if your child is crying in their crib, they do not get it yet! They need a response from you!

And I think you misunderstood what Calm described as "controlled crying". I think she was describing a coping technique for a crisis situation. I don't think she was saying "Here is a great way to get kids to sleep". And secondly, she encourages skin to skin contact. If you are laying on the bed beside your screaming baby, both of you exhausted, I don't think anyone would call that a form of "CIO". If that's the best you can do on the worst nights, I'd say that's doing a pretty good job.

RedOakMama what you described was a consistent approach, not a crisis night, and I think it was a form of CIO, where a delayed response to crying was used to facilitate sleep.

If it worked for you, there is SO MUCH support for it everywhere.

Why justify this here, when people are looking for alternatives to CIO, not encouragement?

edited for typos

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#77 of 117 Old 10-30-2004, 11:57 PM
 
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Thank you all for clarifying. I "get it" now. And just as a point of clarification, I am very anti-cio. I agree with Mountain: CIO makes me feel sick, too!
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#78 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 12:41 AM
 
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I am fairly AP. Compared to mainstreamers I'm very AP. Compared to MDC mamas I'm moderate AP.

I have four kids. These are the standards I have about CIO. (I have severe insomnia and the babies except for the colic one coslept for 8-10 months and then were in a crib).

Time limits for CIO:

hysterical I'm dying crying: never. get them right away
unhappy I don't want to be here crying: 5 minutes
grumbly sleepy crying: 15-20 minutes
grumbly: 30 minutes
awake/ talking but not crying: 45 minutes

I have found that with some of my older babies, they will not fall asleep unless alone. Even after they are used to co sleeping.
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#79 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 12:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartmama
RedOakMama

"Crying is bad" is never a good attitude, even for an infant. This is why so many people recommend reading Aletha Solter on this topic. Some babies need to discharge with crying, and she helps parents honor that need in a way that promotes bonding and security.
redoakmama, this is a bit off topic but your use of the word discharge makes me ask if you are/ were part of the cocounseling community? (Harvey Jakins et al?)
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#80 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 12:46 AM
 
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That's right, Heartmama. It is a coping technique in "end of rope" situations. I firmly believe that some parents are at their peak, and I have seen what they can do to themselves and their family if they don't have some kind of option other than walking and rocking the baby. In some instances, it simply isn't healthy, and I won't trouble people with saying why.

It is a short term solution. Some have gotten sleep results with CC, but that is not its goal. Its goal is to give relief (the ability to walk away momentarily), and an opportunity to re-group all the while attending to your child at intervals - so they don't feel abandoned. It is important to only use it if you are in a very bad situation, and for one off nights. It is a short step from CIO, so not a parenting goal, that's for sure. The reality is, somewhere right now, there is a mother with a screaming infant in her arms, riddled with guilt at the thought of putting her child down, at the same time a stressed time-bomb about to go off. Walking away and leaving the child ain't great, and neither is staying the course (trust me, seen it, wouldn't want to see it again). Putting the baby down for a few minutes, laying down with them and rolling over to cry now and again, rolling back to stroke the baby, rolling away for a few minutes, rolling back to breathe your breath on their cheek....etc etc. This has saved lives. Period. But so has jumping out a window when a house in on fire. When the house ain't on fire, use the freakin' door. Know what I'm sayin'?

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#81 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:06 AM
 
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I am not at all advocating CIO at all. But is it really CIO to put the baby down and step away for a moment because you feel that you have to and there is no one else there to take the baby? I guess to me it seems the 'it' for the CIO is lacking in that situation. I did try CIO when my DD was young. My parents did it and I read the books that said it was fine and I believed them. Fortunately I didn't do this very long and being around AP parents helped me realize there was a better way to handle this situation. I could babble about how I didn't let her cry hard but only to a certain degree blah blah blah but at the end of the day I used to practice CIO. It was not the right choice and fortunately I realized that and changed my ways. My second baby will not ever be CIO.

However I would contrast that behavior when I put her in her crib and let her cry because I felt she needed to cry it out to get to sleep and the times I put her down for a moment and left the room because I couldn't take it any more. In the latter case I didn't expect her to quiet down. I didn't leave the room with that intent. My intent was only to regain control of myself. I hope I won't have that feeling of desparation with my new baby but it's possible that I may (perhaps even more possible with my very spirited toddler along for the ride). I can't say that I won't ever step away from my baby to take a few deep breaths. Is that really the same thing as putting her in a crib and shutting the door and not going back in no matter what? I guess I don't see that and I worry that telling women not to ever feel they can put their baby down if they feel that they need to and telling them they should feel guilty for doing so could lead to abuse.
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#82 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:18 AM
 
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heartmama,

thank you for your thoughtful replies and clarifications. although i don't currently agree with you 100%, i am learning a lot by what you have written, and i am giving it much thought and consideration.

that's why i appreciate these discussions so much (vs debate).
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#83 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:19 AM
 
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wasabi I posted this in my last post:


Quote:
I realize the hot button is the fact that babies do cry, and the need for sleep can make people feel impatient and desperate. Additionally, the invaluable advice to walk away if you feel your temper escalating towards a crying baby, must be kept separate from the intentional use of walking away to induce sleep. They are *different* issues.
Walking away because *you* are losing control is a distinct and separate issue. It is a way to protect your baby in a crisis situation. It is not part of your sleep routine. I hate to see this thread drown under the confusion over these two issues. If you are losing control, walk away. When you calm down, pick up that baby, and come read in this forum, so you don't feel at the end of your rope tomorrow night.

Does that clarify?

Calm wrote:

Quote:
This has saved lives. Period. But so has jumping out a window when a house in on fire. When the house ain't on fire, use the freakin' door. Know what I'm sayin'?
OMG I broke down laughing out loud at this. I needed it! You have a great sense of humor!

Meowee wrote:

Quote:
Time limits for CIO:

hysterical I'm dying crying: never. get them right away
unhappy I don't want to be here crying: 5 minutes
grumbly sleepy crying: 15-20 minutes
grumbly: 30 minutes
awake/ talking but not crying: 45 minutes
*sighing* Why oh why did you just post a guide to CIO?!


For Francy...(((Many hugs))) if something here helped you I am really glad.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#84 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:27 AM
 
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Thank you for that clarification. I must have missed that in catching up on the all the pages since I last read the thread. It does seem though that many in the thread do not consider that to be a distinction. One person suggested that you could even give your baby to the mailman instead of leaving it alone for even a brief moment. Well I was in an apartment. No one else was home and my mailman doesn't come to my apartment. And I don't know that my DD would have had much of a preference in having a stranger hold her over being alone. If she wanted me she wanted me not the mailman. It just seemed some of the responses were of the ilk that no matter what you just needed to suck it up and hold that baby and from my POV that's not a helpful attitude.

ETA I do very much agree they are two separate issues. That was the point I was making. It seems that several people have conflated any time your baby is crying and not in your arms with CIO whether that's putting her baby down to go to the bathroom, rinsing the shampoo out of your hair, or stepping away to collect yourself.
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#85 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by meowee

Time limits for CIO:

hysterical I'm dying crying: never. get them right away
unhappy I don't want to be here crying: 5 minutes
grumbly sleepy crying: 15-20 minutes
grumbly: 30 minutes
awake/ talking but not crying: 45 minutes

I have found that with some of my older babies, they will not fall asleep unless alone. Even after they are used to co sleeping.
This is exactly what I have been trying to convey on this thread. This type of post is not welcome.

MDC does not support CIO and this post not only supports CIO is actually gives a framework on how to do it.
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#86 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Calm
That's right, Heartmama. It is a coping technique in "end of rope" situations. I firmly believe that some parents are at their peak, and I have seen what they can do to themselves and their family if they don't have some kind of option other than walking and rocking the baby. In some instances, it simply isn't healthy, and I won't trouble people with saying why.

It is a short term solution. Some have gotten sleep results with CC, but that is not its goal. Its goal is to give relief (the ability to walk away momentarily), and an opportunity to re-group all the while attending to your child at intervals - so they don't feel abandoned. It is important to only use it if you are in a very bad situation, and for one off nights. It is a short step from CIO, so not a parenting goal, that's for sure. The reality is, somewhere right now, there is a mother with a screaming infant in her arms, riddled with guilt at the thought of putting her child down, at the same time a stressed time-bomb about to go off. Walking away and leaving the child ain't great, and neither is staying the course (trust me, seen it, wouldn't want to see it again). Putting the baby down for a few minutes, laying down with them and rolling over to cry now and again, rolling back to stroke the baby, rolling away for a few minutes, rolling back to breathe your breath on their cheek....etc etc. This has saved lives. Period. But so has jumping out a window when a house in on fire. When the house ain't on fire, use the freakin' door. Know what I'm sayin'?
I really like your voice on this Calm.
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#87 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by wasabi
It seems that several people have conflated any time your baby is crying and not in your arms with CIO whether that's putting her baby down to go to the bathroom, rinsing the shampoo out of your hair, or stepping away to collect yourself.
I would hope that us as parents and as women would really all get this!

CIO is a direct act of ignoring! See the CIO chart in the previous post for emphasis on this.
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#88 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:53 AM
 
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Boy, what a complex issue. Long long ago when I was a really naive new Mom, I thought we were supposed to do this. Dh assured me he was tough enough and sent me into the basement. 5 minutes later he came running downstairs w/ds, both of them in tears.

Ain't tried it since in almost 4 years.

I believe in my heart it is wrong.

I do have a good friend w/a super high needs child and I understand, though, that sometimes she has to walk away in order to perserve her own physical sanity. But, then again, her child was raised in a different environment from mine.

eta: I don't have a definition of CIO, but my kids have never cried out of my arms. I believe that because they never had to cry as an infant, they learned how better to cope w/situations.
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#89 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:00 AM
 
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wasabi, I think if you clearly described the situation as "the mother is about to lose control and might hurt her child if she doesn't step outside for a couple of minutes", that you would get almost complete agreement here on that.

There *are* shades of grey, and it can be hard to discuss it. I am NOT thinking of a post here in this thread when I say:

I have seen posts where a mother will say "I need 9 hours of uninterrupted sleep. I go crazy if I don't get this. My baby has to learn to sleep through the night alone".

How do you tell someone that they probably won't go crazy if they don't get 9 hours of isolated sleep, and that expecting their baby to go that long without a response is unfair, unrealistic, and that the parent is the one who needs to change?

There are MANY people who use CIO for a reason like the above. A huge part of nighttime parenting is making a paradigm shift to realizing "hey, it's okay if my baby needs me at night. I can feel good about responding to them, and it makes the waking less stressful, knowing I can be there for my baby".

It is very hard to respond without someone saying "Didn't you read that this woman might go crazy without a full night of sleep? How is that not more important to her child, to have a sane mother, than to have to cry it out?"

Sometimes the paradigm shift can be so different, people just have to agree to let a place like this be a "no CIO zone" so that the alternatives can be discussed without it devolving into endless debate.

This is why there is no debate over spanking in the gd forum. When someone says "How is it better for a child to get hit by a car than get a spanking so they learn not to go near the road?!?", it causes endless debate over paradigm shifts in viewpoint, that distract from the purpose of the forum.

People SHOULD walk away in a crisis moment. I think everyone agree's on that. But they also need to ask for help, and work on new idea's and beliefs, so that endless frustration does not become the routine.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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#90 of 117 Old 10-31-2004, 01:14 AM
 
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How do you tell someone that they probably won't go crazy if they don't get 9 hours of isolated sleep
Sorry, but bwahahahahaha : And, I repeat bwahahahaahah
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