is cio ever ok? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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Old 10-31-2004, 02:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusyMommy
Sorry, but bwahahahahaha : And, I repeat bwahahahaahah
Yeah seriously. I feel fortunate that the gods smiled on me and DD nightweaned herself a week or so after she started sleeping on her own mattress on the floor of our room. I hadn't had this much sleep in three years! :LOL It has been a wonderful blessing.

As for the other issue I wasn't speaking towards any other threads since I haven't really seen this come up before. I only meant some of the posts in this thread seemed to lack sympathy/empathy for someone putting their child down while crying for any reason. I'm glad to see that many don't equate that with CIO and I by no means was trying to debate the merits of CIO.
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Old 10-31-2004, 02:27 AM - Thread Starter
 
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wow
thanks for the advice and discussion
even the imput that was not directed at me, has given me greater insight into (if nothering else) how to successfully use this particular forum as a parenting information tool
which is my essential goal

i feel like i sould actually apologize for all of my original posts
"we cIO and it so worked"
"my response" and
"is CIO ever ok"

i just did not have ANY clue that they would hurt, offend, or freak any one out
call me clueless
i just did not realize they would

i love and respect all of the MDC comunity and its mission
i do not want to disrespect any of that on any level

the truth is, i am at the begining of forming my parenting practice
i have almost no real life support on the physical or emotional plane
and i was off on the definitions and jargan of AP and GD
and (although VERY HARD for me to admit) i can NOW see i made mistakes in my parenting that to a debatable degree hurt my child (how much...is like i said debateable)
i am sorry for all of that

that being said, in my own hysterical sleep deprived clueless way, i DID come her for help
PERIOD
and for the mommas who put their priorities of keeping the purity of langauge and intent of this forum OVER the priority of overcoming your instinct of anger and accusation and truly reaching out in a loving way to a mom who was obviously struggling.....well let me just say that it STILL hurts.
i truly did not know what all of this (AP GD etc...stuff) was about and even defined as. and if i weren't and strong in my own person and humble anough to admit fault after FLAMES.
lets just say i STILL Might be sleepless and my daughter could being REALLY CIOing it out tonight
i was teetering on the edge of being able to cope and NOT.

WE NEED TO HELP MOTHERS HERE FIRST
then judge and define rules and norms in a matter of fact way
PERIOD
and many of "you" did not do that for me.

and I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad that i came back any way and read and asked more
because let me tell you
I AM LEARNING and my BABY IS BENIFITING FORM THE LEARNING
so is my marriage
infact

this entire experience has urged me to embark on a majo rspiritual and emoitonal journey of my mothering....and with in my own personal soul

am truly growing as a person from what i am learning here.

for that i thank you all

i am so commited to being the most loving respectful mom i can be

but i BEG you all
please be gentle with the crazy ignorant sleep deprived unknowing mommas who come here.


e
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Old 10-31-2004, 02:32 AM
 
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Old 10-31-2004, 02:54 AM
 
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I am all for being gentle and supportive and non-judgmental, I really am.

But sometimes all you have to do is say "CIO is not an acceptable parenting technique..."
or "We don't advocate CIO here..."
and you get accused of flaming.

I am sorry, but it is important to those of us who practice GD in a world that is hostile to it, to have safe space to share.
This is a COMMUNITY. It is for the good of us ALL to keep that safe space.

So it isn't just about obsession with the purity of language.. or putting rules and semantics ahead of someone's pain.

It is about preserving the intent of this community for ALL OF US.

People are responsible for their OWN FEELINGS.
You can choose to understand why people are passionate about defending the values of this community.. or you can CHOOSE to take it personally.
That is, of course, barring outright flaming, name-calling and personal attacks, which are BANNED here.

I am one who has posted again and again calling for tolerance here.
But I am getting really really tired of being attacked for caring about the values and principles of this community.

I would think that those who value this place and what it has to offer would also care about preserving its mission, so that others can benefit from its uniqueness as well.

MDC does NOT advocate CIO. It is not a place for people to come advocate CIO.

How is it flaming or attacking to point that out?

I have never said anyone was a bad person or a bad mother. I have not seen anyone else say that either.

I have always offered suggestions and alternatives.
So does almost everyone else here.

I have posted some of my own struggles.. and gotten advice and support.. as well as reminders of what MDC is about.

I don't understand the constant fingerpointing at this community simply for wanting to uphold its stated values.
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Old 10-31-2004, 03:40 AM
 
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Thank you for your prespective Asherah, I appreciate you.
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Old 10-31-2004, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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oh ahserah, if you did not say anything that was an actual personal insult
then that was NOT directed to you
some people did....AND mentioned the same feelings you described above...
i am just asking that people be matter of fact about the rules of this forum when a new person comes and is out of line...

and to refrain from persoanl attack

i was told that i was disgusting and
in a sarcastic tone, to go tell my pititful little story somewhere else...(and other insults and attacks)
when i did not even really know the community deffinition of cryig it out OR what your community excepted guidelines were for discussion.

that is all i meant

i just wanted to clarify the original intent of this thread...
i don't need any more "answers" because i would not have used practically any of the same wording, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW.

ok?
please lets stop this now...i don't think there is anything more for anyone to learn from that line of discussion.
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Old 10-31-2004, 11:48 AM
 
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asherah-Nice words
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Old 10-31-2004, 12:21 PM
 
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wasabi, I think some posts happen in grey area's that make for differing responses, kwim? Some people are going to see it as a safety issue, others won't, it depends on the information given, kwim?

Asherah, thank you, that was a wonderful post.

Momajustice I can understand your hurt at personal attacks. I also think it's great that you are learning why your language might have led to some misunderstandings here. People do want to help moms learn alternatives to CIO.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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Old 10-31-2004, 01:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain mom
This is exactly what I have been trying to convey on this thread. This type of post is not welcome.

MDC does not support CIO and this post not only supports CIO is actually gives a framework on how to do it.
NAK

the OP asked if there is ever a siuation where one lets babe CIO. I suffer from severe insomnia. It is important to listen to your baby. Different sounds mean different things. honestly compared to people who really let their babes cio it out, I don't. if babe wakes during the night, I get her immediately even if not crying. it is just the naps and initial putting down I do the list I wrote.

I believe in a family bed but I have an extraordinary situation like op asked of. I have suffered from severe insomnia my whole life. It was/ is so severe I wondered if I should have dc at all.

so I have put together a patchwork. I get as close to family bed and no cio as I can. babe in bed with me for up to ten months, then crib w on demand nursing through night. When out of a crib they co sleep with DH.

as far as whether this discussion should even be allowed on family bed, I believe it should. some of us want a family bed and no CIO but like many AP ideals it is not attainable for some of us. For those of us who can't do it to the ideal, I think we have to create a patchwork getting as close as possible. To do that you have to be realistic about your needs and DCs needs. Not every grumble, cry, and coo from a babe means the same thing.

for instance DS was colicky. There was no in between with him. It was always the hysterical I'm dying cry. So we never even tried to put him in a crib. But with future babes some would fall asleep in their crib with fifteen minutes of grumbling. Not even crying. So is that CIO? Not in my opinion. Some would fall asleep with thirty seconds of crying. Is that CIO?

There's a huge difference between what I wrote and what mainstream ppl do. Just throw the kid in the crib and close the door no matter what happens. I would never do that.

you have to view this less rigidly. The mamas have needs and issues too. I for one and very grateful to see this discussion.
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Old 10-31-2004, 03:11 PM
 
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I have refrained from posting in the three CIO threads started by Moma Justice for various reasons. The first and foremost being that I wasn't sure I could do so without hurting someone's feelings. I literally cried when I read the first post. It affected me that much. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have that reaction.

I think Asherah has summed up exactly what needed to be said. I don't think anybody flamed anyone (if you think I am wrong, that's cool, just pm me about it). I am so sorry some people felt the OP was being attacked, and took it upon themselves to attack those they thought were doing the attacking. The closed threads are still here in this forum, I didn't make them go away, but I did have to remove some of the posts which were in direct violation of the MDC User Agreement. Click that link. Those are the rules, plain and simple. If anyone sees a post in this forum that you feel breaks any of those rules, report it or pm me with the link! It's that easy. What you shouldn't do is to reply and take matters into your own hands. That is when threads get closed or outright removed from the boards.

Any post here which puts CIO in a positive light will get many very passionate responses. You can't expect it not to. This is MDC, and CIO is not something members here agree with or advocate. In fact, most of us are very much against CIO and feel physical pain just reading stories about it.
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Old 10-31-2004, 03:27 PM
 
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Asherah, thank you for speaking from your heart.
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:06 PM
 
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moma justice
i was told that i was disgusting and
in a sarcastic tone, to go tell my pititful little story somewhere else...(and other insults and attacks)

i would not have used practically any of the same wording, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW.
MJ, I know what I said you took personal and they could have hurt you- my intent was to get to the point, and if I get mad, I tend to be very blunt. However, like you said "i would not have used practically any of the same wording, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW." and in turn I very well would have not responded the same way I did if the wording had been different. It was not a personal insult or attack, there has been many times in the last 6 months on this board we have been in huge debates about how to keep this board a pure AP/NFL style board, and speaking out when we see danger or wrong is a way we can do that. Harshness was not my intent, simply to say if this is what you think is "ok" then please go someplace else. I also must say that my OP is still there and the mods have read it, I dont think I stepped over the line. But I do see that you are learning and working as a mother, as we all are- and learning takes time and education and I am very happy you are looking for more education in this respect. I have a 1 1/2 year old too, I am a learning mama, it is part of parenting and I think even when they are 30 we will still be learning!


Asherah, I thank you very much for your post, and I totally agree with you 100%

riotkrrn- there is a sticky at the top of the forum all about CIO and I think it speaks very clearly about the rules and ideals of MDC and it community about CIO, http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=179657 However, I do think that most people never read any rules.... And I dont know how to fix that

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RAINBOW BABY DUE MAY 4th!!!
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Old 10-31-2004, 06:11 PM
 
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riotkrrn
I've seen the sticky and I agree that it's very helpful and contains a number of helpful resources. It seems, though, to assume that the reader knows exactly what is meant by CIO and goes from there in explaining why it's a bad idea and what some alternatives are. Based on the responses I've seen in this thread, there seems to be confusion as to what CIO actually is - Ferberization? Controlled crying? Crying while a parent is in the room? Crying in the car? And so on. My thought was that, perhaps as an addition to the resources on the sticky, someone could add a blurb about what CIO is, and some scenarios (that involve crying and sleep) that aren't.
Perhaps you are right, Maybe a mod can put up a sitcky with the guide lines that MDC feels is CIO and the terms in which it is okay to talk about it here. I think that may be the only way that MDC could get control of the topic, however I do think the mods have done a great job dealing with the threads and the topic at hand. It would be nice for new and even old members to have a stick to reference for help and questions and answers.

ETA: I didnt mean that the mods think it is okay to talk about CIO here, but I ment the terms on what CIO are and why it is not a valid subject to support in this forum, and other options for parenting that are OK.--- Sometimes when i type it doesnt come out the way I think it!

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Old 10-31-2004, 08:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meowee
you have to view this less rigidly. The mamas have needs and issues too. I for one and very grateful to see this discussion.
I truely appreciate the position you are in Meowee. I do not have issue with you specifically nor do I need you to further support your reasons for using CIO. That is intirely your choice, one that you seem to feel okay about.

I do not need to see this less rigidly. CIO discussion as a method of positive parenting, simply is not allowed.

If it works for you, excellent, why do you feel the need to advocate in a forum that does not want you to.

I, again, for the record, will qualify what I feel is CIO and what I feel is not.

1) You allow your child/infant to continue to cry, hoping it brings them sleep, knowing if you picked them up they would more than likely quiet, CIO.

2) Babe/Child is crying and....Dinner is burning, door is knocking, phone is ringing, bathroom toilet is flooding, you may loose it and do something you regret so you don't pick the babe up until you have control of the out of control sitaution....NOT CIO.
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Old 10-31-2004, 08:47 PM
 
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Yeah, I feel it speaks for itself too. Crying It Out has no end - cry until it sorts itself out type thing.

Hunger is political.  Wherever there is widespread hunger, it is because people with guns are preventing other people from bringing in food.  
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Old 10-31-2004, 08:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountain mom

If it works for you, excellent, why do you feel the need to advocate in a forum that does not want you to.
Not advocating it. If you can no CIO and cosleep, you should. Period. But the OP was asking about extraordinary circumstances. That is something I feel I can relate to...

We are living in a culture where people have forgotten that babes are human being, and APers are remembering that now. But we seem to be forgetting that the mamas are human beings too! JMO
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Old 10-31-2004, 10:22 PM
 
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Not that it even needs to be said considering I'm certainly not the only person on here who feels this way...but...for the sake of...I dunno saking...Crying It Out (to me) is self explanatory. In my particular experience, because I certainly can't speak for every case, my daughter (now 15 months old) has never cried it out. Has she cried while I was doing something like putting the clothes in the dryer or cleaning up cat puke or putting something in the oven....well..yeah. But she has never EVER cried alone. She's never been forced to stay BY HERSELF desperate for comfort because I just couldn't "deal" or because I was trying to teach her a lesson.

I'm sorry, but our babies are only literal babies for a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things...and I fully understand that there are extinuating circumstances...but for those of us that are running at top speed my question to you is this..."Why in the world would you deny your baby the comfort and love that he/she so richly deserves?"

Have I ever felt at the end of my rope after a particularly trying day with Willow? Hell yes. Have I ever felt that I simply could not handle another whimper from her darling little soul...Absolutely. But I'm a mother. And in becoming a mother, IMO, I put someone else's life ahead of mine. Willow is MY responsibility. And I can't bring myself to put her needs on the back burner when there is no reason for them to be there.

OMG...am I just rambling now. lol Sorry. Anyway...We are all individuals..and ultimately will make our individual choices...but in this house....CIO is not an option.

Hope I didn't offend anyone..I wasn't setting out to.

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Old 10-31-2004, 10:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meowee
But we seem to be forgetting that the mamas are human beings too!
ITA, the health of the Mother is reflected by the health of her family forsure!

I get where you are coming from. I appreciate your dialouge with this and I think I understand you and vice versa.

It is good for Mothers to ask for help and guidance and its good for Mothers to offer it.

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Old 10-31-2004, 10:24 PM
 
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Well said!

And,
Quote:
but our babies are only literal babies for a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things
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Old 11-01-2004, 12:07 AM
 
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Moma Justice..
Please believe me when I say I have NOTHING but empathy for you.
I understand what it is like to be desperate and searching.. and I also understand what it is like to be at the center of an online firestorm.

I wish you all good things.
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Old 11-01-2004, 04:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willowsmom
And in becoming a mother, IMO, I put someone else's life ahead of mine. Willow is MY responsibility. And I can't bring myself to put her needs on the back burner when there is no reason for them to be there.
well said. i agree, and i try to do this. every now and then, i choose myself over my child, and i feel conflicted about it. sometimes i feel as you described. other times i think, "i have needs too, and it just isn't realistic to always, always put his needs first. and even if it were, am i causing terrible psychological damage by doing so?" (btw: i definitely don't think i am. kids are incredibly resilient, and we have a very loving home in general. the "damage" issue is, of course, something many of us will disagree about.)

let me tell y'all how this thread has helped me!

i do occasional cio at nap or bedtime when i desperately need the baby to sleep so i can be someplace else, doing something else (usually involving my older son--the world can't revolve around the baby when ds1 needs me too). when i do this cio, i fully recognize that i am not putting baby's needs first. i'm putting mine (or my older son's first). i'm not at my "ap best." there might be a way i can do better. but i'm not. and i say to the baby, "i'm sorry that i'm not helping you now. but i have to do something else. i'm sorry that you are sad. but...you have to be sad right now." i acknowlege this. it's the ole "life aint fair" way of doing things that i usually try to avoid.

whew! that said, let me tell you about yesterday:

baby hadn't napped. toddler was desperate for one-on-one. i was beat. i had had it with kids whining/crying at me. i wasn't losing it by any means. i wasn't desperate. i was in control. this was classic cio. not much gray area.

so, i put the baby in bed with my "i'm sorry you have to be sad right now" speech, and i left. i planned to do some errands with toddler while ds was working at home. baby cried. i thought about his sadness. i thought about the different things i've read on this thread. i thought about my own needs to get a break from them baby, and just be with my toddler. i knew he'd fall asleep in less than 10 minutes. i thought about what HE really needed.

i knew that if i put him in the car with me and toddler, he'd fall asleep in the carseat. he loves going on errands. certainly, it is much harder on me to carry him around while chasing toddler. but he would be happy. i thought about this thread. i thought about how easy he is to comfort. i decided to rise to the challenge of motherhood! i would put his needs first, and go get him, hold him, and take him with me.



but can i tell you the ironic ending?? i went to get him, and he was asleep! i actually thought for a second about waking him up!!! hahaha! i didn't!

so thanks mamas! next time i'll be able to put him first!
thank you!
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Old 11-01-2004, 11:56 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks asherah...
i really mean it, thank you.
i guess that is what i wanted to here from you OR from this community.
that morning that i op, i just saw the title "night time parenting" and thought i would tell my story and see what happened.
i had never really been here excpet for when my dd was born and i need support about co sleeping (i was getting a lot of criticism from family about how i was going to KILL my baby...LOL)
anyway, 'nough said
CLUELESS
now i know
and this does need to be a safe place for that way of night time parenting. not a place for debating CIO or its "effectiveness"....
i used to spend a lot of time on the vax board and it used to make a lot of regulars upset when unknowing (or knowing) people would come to argue about vax safety and accuse non vaxers of stuff like child abuse....etc
anyway
NOW i understand
that i did that here.
but i did not know it so again, THANK you for welcoming me and forgiving me.

i wanted to mention another thing
i think it is hard for the mommas who, for what ever reason, think they ARE doing the best thing for their babies by letting them CIO.

like that momma (APmom98) with her thread "our CIO story"
at that moment she thought she was doing what was best for her son. she finally tried it, against her better judgement, becuase of outside pressure and because she felt at the end of her rope. of coarse it was a horriable regret for her and i am not advocating CIO...but it is difficult to sort through what is best for your baby sometimes..
correct me if i am wrong...but it seemed like she was questioning herself and saying, "maybe this is what he needs/wants? maybe i should try it? nothing else is working? maybe this would be best for him...everyone else thinks this will work"
that is no easy delima
her holding herself on the couch crying is not a mom selfishly saying ..."i don't want to take care of my child's needs anymore. i need to put myself first...." i am not even refering to the moms who are thinking that if they don't get some rest/time away that they can not do their best mothering.
i am talking about the moms who think this step at that moment is their attmept at good mothering.

i guess i just wanted to make it clear to those of us who have never felt pushed to take that desprate messure, that it is not ALWAYS a case of a mom who has decided to stop putting the needs of the child first.
some moms who try this (i am saying a as a rare or one time last resort) could feel like by doing so they are putting their child's needs first.
right or wrong.
i wanted to seperate those two scenerios by the mother's intent...because i think it matters to the mothers in this possition and their babies....i think there is a difference, ithink even the babies could even detect it.

i know that if i could really explain it to my dd she would feel the difference between me saying:
i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i just needed some time to myself, mommy is a person too....

AND

if i said: i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i knew you were beyond a healthy level of exaugstian, i felt like i had tried every way to comfort you and nothing was working. i thought i would try this. i thought i was doing what was best for you...

what do you veterens think about that? possiable?
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:10 AM
 
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I think you should only tell her exactly what your heart wants to say. Therefore, I think you already have the answer mama.

asherah~ I love your post and wanted to say I think you ROCK!
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Old 11-02-2004, 03:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moma justice
i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i just needed some time to myself, mommy is a person too....

AND

if i said: i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i knew you were beyond a healthy level of exaugstian, i felt like i had tried every way to comfort you and nothing was working. i thought i would try this. i thought i was doing what was best for you...
the first example is the mama who knows cio is not the preferred way to handle things, but she is choosing to do it in order to accomplish something else that she feels is important.

it sounds like the second description is a mama thinking she is doing the best for her child by trying cio.


for me, when i have done cio, i have done the first one. i am not at my best when i have done it, and i am NOT doing the best for my child. i have chosen myself (or maybe a private activity with my older son) OVER the needs of my baby. in respect to the baby, this is not a nice thing to do. i waffle a bit on this. most of me says: you are being mean. the baby wants to be held. make your baby happy. ar part of me (the part that hears the "majority view") says: life isn't fair. we can't all be happy all the time. the baby will survive it. (gee--sounds like MY mother's voice!)

i try to listen to the first voice! reading gentle reminders of this (like those written by heartmama) helps me put things in an AP perspective.

since i don't think i am doing it for the good of my child, a discussion like this is especially helpful to me b/c it gives me the strength and encouragement to do better the next time i feel like doing cio. (b/c i tend to agree with the AP view in theory, but in practice, i blow it sometimes!)

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Old 11-02-2004, 03:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moma justice
T
if i said: i am sorry you were crying and i was not holding you, i knew you were beyond a healthy level of exaugstian, i felt like i had tried every way to comfort you and nothing was working. i thought i would try this. i thought i was doing what was best for you...

what do you veterens think about that? possiable?

I am a little afraid to "get involved" in this thread, but I will tell you my story.

My oldest DD never seemed to be comforted by being held. She would ALWAYS scream in our arms. She was ONLY happy in her bouncy seat, her carseat or in her stroller.

I bf'd her with as little contact as possible because when she was touched or stroked she would immediately start screaming.

I slept with her in our bed for the first few months and she would cry for hours (druing which time we would try to comfort her but nothing worked) and even after she was asleep she would cry out constantly and often wake up screaming when I touched her.

At three months my DH could not handle the lack of sleep and wanted to try something different. I felt that what we were doing wasn't doing her much good and went along. During the start of her hours long crying jag, we put her down in a crib. I was in the room but not touching her (since she hated that). She fell asleep in about 6 minutes. She slept well for the first time. She woke up making cooing noises instead of SCREAMING. I always fed her when she woke up. She almost never cried when she went "back down".

We kept doing this and she did cry a few minutes each night alone for another week, but far far less than when we were trying to comfort her.

I do not feel badly about what I did, though I will admit we did it in part becasuse we felt that without sleep we were not being good parents. But I did not do it with my others, since they did not seem to need it. In fact, I think my oldest is just very unusual and I wouldn't compare my situation to anyone else's.
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