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#31 of 46 Old 01-25-2005, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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WOW! So much support and advice! THANK YOU! Truly, I am reading all of these posts and thinking of ways to implement them into our situation to see if they help.

We are 100% certain these wakings are not health-related. No reflux anymore and she does have all but her final molars. It has become very clear over the past two nights that she is rousing, but is not happy about rousing and is unable to fall back to sleep easily. My DH and I have been taking turns with her at night to note what is going on. It is like one moment she is asleep and the next she is rolling around and wide awake. As soon as she is aware of this, she starts to get really angy and sort of throws herself around the futon, rubbing her face into the mattress and then she climbs on top of us and cries into our faces... like she is asking us to help her figure it out.

She isn't nursing back to sleep anymore either. So all of a sudden, in the middle of nursing she will pop of and roll around crying. If I try to latch her on again, she bites, which indicates that she doesn't want anymore. So we are doing Dr.JG's technique to help her find new ways to fall asleep.

We have found that she gets angry if its me soothing her, so my DH is doing most of it. He is better adjusted to his MS meds, so he's not sleeping as deeply as he used to and is able to sleep next to her.

So far she is still waking as much as ever, but she goes back to sleep pretty fast with him. I hope this helps her.

I agree that all babies are different. And I agree that some wake more than others, etc. What I do not agree with is that it is normal for my DD. She is clearly wanting to sleep, but not able. I really think that her rough start kept her from developing a natural sleep pattern and as a result her brain is "used" to waking so much.

Anyway, still here, still sleepy and rambling. Just wanted to post a thank you for all of your thoughtful posts and advice. We're trying everything you've suggested!
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#32 of 46 Old 01-25-2005, 02:45 PM
 
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I am watching this thread with interest because my 18m old son does not want to sleep at all. He'll get so tired and is obviously exhausted, but if he wakes up the slightest bit (in my arms, being put into bed, being nursed, etc.) he will kick his legs and thrash and shout, "No! No!" until he wakes himself up, then he'll start wailing. It's awful.

I'm considering trying to night-wean because he would stay latched on all night if he could, and to be frank I'm getting awfully sore because as he nods off, he nips. Well, let's be honest. Chomps.

I'm so pooped, most days when I get up for work he's fast asleep and it makes me so mad! He keeps me up all night long then when it's time to get out of bed there he is, cherubic and angelic.

There are days I consider locking myself in the bathroom just so I can try and get some sleep in the bathtub.

- Jen
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#33 of 46 Old 01-25-2005, 03:16 PM
 
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I'm curious what you mean by "rough start"? Was she a NICU baby? There may be some homeopathic, or naturopathic, or body work things you could try.

SMC to Sophia, age 15, and Eleanor, age 9, and mother hen to too many nursing students to count!

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#34 of 46 Old 01-25-2005, 03:57 PM
 
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I night weaned my first son, Joe at 15 months, I just *couldn't* wake up every hour any more. I felt like i'd lost my soul, let alone my mind!! The ONLY way that we could do it was for me to sleep downstairs for a while (so that I couldn't hear him!) and for dp to do the night parenting. It really only took a few nights, during which time I really looked after dp (cooked the meals, did the cleaning, shopping etc.) so that he could manage on no sleep (!). I was happy to, I was having my first nights sleep in about 18 months!!

I was back at work then, as well.

Noah, my 2nd son, was heading exactly the same way... and d'you what I did? I put him into a cot at 12 months. I don't feel in the least bit guilty, or bad, or less 'ap' (or whatever label) about this, I just feel like I have the benefit of experience that I won't let myself, and him as well, get to the point where we're so tired that we can't even think straight.

I think that a large part of the problem in this situation is that you're so tired that you just can't come up with a solution, you just offer a boob in a desperate attempt to get the sleep that your body and mind is so powerfully craving. and you're working too??! night wean mama, really.

Good luck - let us all know how you get on!

Steph
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#35 of 46 Old 01-25-2005, 04:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mosschops
I think that a large part of the problem in this situation is that you're so tired that you just can't come up with a solution, you just offer a boob in a desperate attempt to get the sleep that your body and mind is so powerfully craving. and you're working too??! night wean mama, really.
I realize this was directed at the OP but it sounds EXACTLY like my situation. So I'll consider it for me, too

- Jen!
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#36 of 46 Old 01-25-2005, 06:16 PM
 
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She says it's not the night nursing, though, that is the problem. It sounds like the babe is nightwaking and can't get back to sleep, nursing or no. Is that right, Too Busy?

SMC to Sophia, age 15, and Eleanor, age 9, and mother hen to too many nursing students to count!

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#37 of 46 Old 01-25-2005, 10:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
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She says it's not the night nursing, though, that is the problem. It sounds like the babe is nightwaking and can't get back to sleep, nursing or no. Is that right, Too Busy?
Yes and no... she was waking a million times and I would nurse her back to sleep. That was a problem and then it started taking longer and longer to get her back to sleep and then nursing stopped working.

I tried to post an answer to her "rough start", too... but it disappeared? Anyway, she was born at 37 weeks because of AROM. She wasn't ready to come out and had bad jaundice and couldn't nurse and ended up FTT. So we were wawking her every two hours to eat for 6 weeks before we got her to exclusive breast. And then she started having colic, which turned out to be reflux and would wake with pain constantly. This went on until about 6 months.

When we first brought her home, we were letting her sleep however she wanted, but when her billi levels kept rising, the nurse told us we had to wake her or she would never learn to nurse and would never get her levels down. So we followed instructions to a tee out of lack of knowledge and fear.

Anyway, what we found out from working with an LC around 3 weeks was that we didn't need to keep interrupting her natural sleep pattern to eat. At that point it was too late and she was already up every hour like we had been doing.

Then the reflux kicked up and she was always waking with pain. I know that it could have happened this way anyway, but I truly think she would be a different "sleeper" if things had gone differently. I think that "schedule" we had set the pace and then the reflux ingrained it.

She can put herself to sleep sometimes. I can hear her do it... but it doesn't happen often and at this point sucking is not working anymore. And the poor thing is just lost. We are having some BREAKTHRU success with my DH laying with her and soothing her (She gets too mad with me) but she is still waking nearly every 60-90 minutes and getting mad.

Sorry so long winded. This has just been inside for such a long time and its just so frustrating to want to do what you believe is the right thing, but have it turn out to be different. And now that nursing isn't working... well, this is just crazy.

Thank you for listening to me and trying to help!!!
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#38 of 46 Old 01-26-2005, 12:18 AM
 
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Too Busy ... I've been lurking and I just wanted to offer a of support as my ds, who is basically the same age as your dd, is at a very similar point. Although I WAH (rather poorly at the moment, I might add), I can't imagine having to be at a "real" job everyday and going through what I/we do. You deserve a . Hang in there! And let us know if you find something that works!
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#39 of 46 Old 01-26-2005, 04:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Too Busy
... And the poor thing is just lost. We are having some BREAKTHRU success with my DH laying with her and soothing her (She gets too mad with me) but she is still waking nearly every 60-90 minutes and getting mad.
This is EXACTLY why i had to sleep downstairs! I just couldn't get J to sleep, because he associated me with nursing. DP could, however, and they got to a point where if he woke dp could 'snuggle' him to sleep on his chest, even, eventually, when we all co-slept, which we did 'till he was three.

J was born at 37 wks too, and had to have an op and had some reflux (although not as extreme as your experiences, you poor things!)

I remember feeling such guilt when dp started the night parenting, such guilt for J, such stress... and then the utter joy when he started to sleep longer stretches... he's still a 'spirited' chap, i've been up with him since 5am this am!! but that's another issue!!

xxx
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#40 of 46 Old 01-26-2005, 02:32 PM
 
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I'm not really sure exactly what might help, but your idea about her brain being "wired" a certain way has such a strong ring of truth to it. I'll bet you are intuiting exactly what the problem is. It sounds like what you are doing is working, so certainly to keep doing that may be all you need. I just wonder if there are natural and body work things you can try in order to rewire her brain. Things like craniosacral therapy, network spinal analysis (that one seems the most promising and probably quickest, not too expensive either, since she is young), infant massage, homeopathic remedies for fear and for sleep issues to name a few.

SMC to Sophia, age 15, and Eleanor, age 9, and mother hen to too many nursing students to count!

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#41 of 46 Old 01-26-2005, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Sofiamomma
I'm not really sure exactly what might help, but your idea about her brain being "wired" a certain way has such a strong ring of truth to it. I'll bet you are intuiting exactly what the problem is. It sounds like what you are doing is working, so certainly to keep doing that may be all you need. I just wonder if there are natural and body work things you can try in order to rewire her brain. Things like craniosacral therapy, network spinal analysis (that one seems the most promising and probably quickest, not too expensive either, since she is young), infant massage, homeopathic remedies for fear and for sleep issues to name a few.
Thanks mama

We have an AWESOME chiro who is very knowledgable about natural rememdies... we have been taking her to him since she was dx with reflux, hoping that it might help, but unfortunately it hasn't really helped us in the areas we've needed it. He's told me that at this age, our options for any herbal therapies to help her sleep are pretty slim. He wouldn't feel comfortable giving us melatonin for her.

We have tried massage and she is just too darn wiggly for it! I remember reading a book about infant massage while I was pregnant and it talked about the author's experience in India with a mama and baby who sat down every day at a certain time for massage and how the baby, no matter how fussy her was would immediately calm when he saw his mom preparing for it. I so longed for this to be my DD :LOL She is not much into hugs or cuddles unless she initiates it.

I have never heard of craniosacral therapy or network spinal analysis... is that something my chiro would know about? Or is it more of a ped thing? We have not been to the ped for a looooong time because we are not vaxing and have had a really hard time finding someone who supports that. And I hate taking her in there if she isn't sick, KIWM?

Thank you!
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#42 of 46 Old 01-26-2005, 05:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Too Busy
We are 100% certain these wakings are not health-related. No reflux anymore and she does have all but her final molars. It has become very clear over the past two nights that she is rousing, but is not happy about rousing and is unable to fall back to sleep easily... It is like one moment she is asleep and the next she is rolling around and wide awake. As soon as she is aware of this, she starts to get really angy and sort of throws herself around the futon, rubbing her face into the mattress and then she climbs on top of us and cries into our faces... like she is asking us to help her figure it out...She isn't nursing back to sleep anymore either. So all of a sudden, in the middle of nursing she will pop of and roll around crying. If I try to latch her on again, she bites, which indicates that she doesn't want anymore. So we are doing Dr.JG's technique to help her find new ways to fall asleep.

I'm sorry to be obtuse, but I'm not sure how you can rule out her last two teeth coming in as being the problem. The behaviors you describe are EXACTLY how my DS acts when teething is starting to get really bad (i.e. a tooth is getting close).

Nightweaning might be a good idea even if that's what is going on, but I thought it was odd that you were able to rule it out. If there's a way to find out for sure whether a baby is teething, I would like to know, because I'm PRETTY sure my DS is still teething, but would love to know FOR SURE, if you know what I mean.
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#43 of 46 Old 01-26-2005, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I can just tell. We have been teething since she was about 3 months old and we've gotten really good at being able to tell when she is teething. There are differences in how she acts when she wakes and the way she cries. She also always tuggs at her ears and rubs her face when she is teething. I know things can change, etc, etc, etc. But suffice to say that I have watched her and been with her for all of her wakings and she is just different now. Its not an in-pain fuss, it is an bona-fide angry cry.

During the teething episodes, she always needed to sleep upright, in the recliner on our chests. And she also gets a very runny nose when she is working on teeth. Neither of these things is true this time.

I didn't mean to sound like I have some secret about teething... I guess I am just confident in knowing that its not her teeth or anything else physical because I've been thru the ringer with her. :LOL
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#44 of 46 Old 01-27-2005, 12:18 AM
 
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Too Busy, depending on where you are, NSA may be easy or a little tough to find. Your chiro will likely know about it. At this point only chiros can do it. It is a way of teaching the body to realign itself. It works amazingly well with little ones. The office that is closest to me does demonstrations and it is just the most incredible thing. It literally rewires the body, nerves, spinal cord, and therefore, muscles, bones, organs, etc. I'll bet if you Google it, you'd come up with someone near you.

I plan to start with myself and my younger dd in the next few weeks. We've been to a demonstration and had a consultation and a couple of treatments. She had a bit of a rough start herself and I've seen good results even in the two treatments she's had so far.

I know I may come off as some kind of enthusiastic convert, but I'm really not. In fact, it didn't come to mind until I'd read this thread a couple of times. It was your wiring comment that made me think of it.

SMC to Sophia, age 15, and Eleanor, age 9, and mother hen to too many nursing students to count!

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#45 of 46 Old 01-27-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Too Busy
I can just tell. We have been teething since she was about 3 months old and we've gotten really good at being able to tell when she is teething. There are differences in how she acts when she wakes and the way she cries. She also always tuggs at her ears and rubs her face when she is teething. I know things can change, etc, etc, etc. But suffice to say that I have watched her and been with her for all of her wakings and she is just different now. Its not an in-pain fuss, it is an bona-fide angry cry.

During the teething episodes, she always needed to sleep upright, in the recliner on our chests. And she also gets a very runny nose when she is working on teeth. Neither of these things is true this time.

I didn't mean to sound like I have some secret about teething... I guess I am just confident in knowing that its not her teeth or anything else physical because I've been thru the ringer with her. :LOL
Oh, I totally know what you mean. I tell DH that I can tell DS is in teething pain because of the way he acts when he's about to get a tooth versus just working on a tooth, etc. so I completely understand. I guess it's still possible, but I agree it sounds like you intuitively understand there's something else going on.

Hope the nightweaning continues to work for you! How was last night, btw?
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#46 of 46 Old 01-27-2005, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Pretty well! She did 2 hours stretches, which is the first time in a LOOOOONG time. She still had a rough patch in the middle of the night when she just didn't want my DH, but it didn't last as long as it has in the past three nights. Then she woke up at 4 and I tried to get her back to sleep, but she kept waking up! Everytime I would get her settled she pop up and start babbling and kissing me. Its hard to be mad when they do that :LOL

But I had to pee and my DH took her and she went right down for him. I am seeing small progress each night. Its basically like getting used to a new routine and she is slowly learning that she can go back to sleep and getting less frustrated. I think its going to take 10-14 days total until we're transitioned completely. Or maybe a little longer... I don't want to rush her.
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