How do you respond to CIOers?! - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 05-12-2005, 06:41 PM
 
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I am not familiar with Jo Frost. Summary anywhere?

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Old 05-12-2005, 06:54 PM
 
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How do you define CIO? When I had ds, I always held him until he went to sleep. He slept with me and my ex until he was about a year old. After he moved into his own room, we always kept his door and our door open so we could hear him in the night. If he woke up, I'd go get him and bring him into bed with us. He only stopped crawling into bed with me (my ex and I had split up by then) on occasion when he was about 8.

DD was a different story. She would cry every night from 11pm until about 3am. We couldn't get her to sleep, no matter what we did. Any kind of interaction just seemed to provide her with a distraction, and she fought sleep like I couldn't believe. My dh started taking her downstairs and just holding her on his knee until she stopped crying...three or four hours every single night. (I was post-op from a c-section, and he wanted me to get my rest so I could recover more quickly. I love that man!!) Anyway...dd finally started sleeping better, and she co-slept until she was about 20 or 21 months old. Now, she sleeps in her own bed in our room, and if she wakes up, we pick her up and rock her until she goes back to sleep. But, her naps are a different story. Usually, we put her in her bed, and she snuggles in and goes to sleep. But, if she gets too tired, that doesn't work - she just freaks out and cries and screams. If she gets to that point, we have to leave her alone to go to sleep. If we stay with her, she just does what she used to - uses us as a distraction and fights sleep with everything in her little body and soul. If we leave her alone, she's asleep in five minutes - every time. Is that CIO? Because I really think letting her scream in misery for a couple of hours would be worse for her...even if I were holding her.

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Old 05-12-2005, 07:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by meco
I am not familiar with Jo Frost. Summary anywhere?
Jo Frost is Super Nanny ( )
She advocates CIO, but she sits in a chair next to the crib and just sits there. She says not to touch the baby, look at the baby or talk to the baby. She says that each night you move the chair closer to the door until you are no longer in the room.

To me that would be more horrible for the child.

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Old 05-12-2005, 07:05 PM
 
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I KNOW YOU KNOW!

DAMN HIPPIES!!!!!

boy:
I know too...

But I have been working all afternoon, so I have not been here to answer. Postpartum, I love it, it is not really work to me. I get to hold babies, yay!



And I wear birks, but I also wear platform shoes, the taller the better.

But inside there is a part of me that really is about 10% hippie, ok???

:LOL :LOL Do you still love me?

My middle one was a mellow guy, nothing fazed him, was born quietly staring at his daddy and I and nursed within a minute of his birth as if he had done it for years...

My oldest and my youngest were the high need dudes, and totally velcro. They cried, but I could not leave them in a room to CIO, I would not been able to stand it. I was doing AP 20+ years ago, but it was just an instinct, truthfully, just as my mother and grandmothers before did.

Jen, love ya~



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Old 05-12-2005, 07:56 PM
 
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Mothering Magazine had a really fascinating article within the last year or so about in-arms crying and how it can potentially be very healthy and healing.

Don't know if that has been brought up or not, but I wanted to put it out there.
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Old 05-12-2005, 08:48 PM
 
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*reading this thread with interest* other parentings boards have gotten to the point that if someone posts an anti-CIO or even pro-cosleeping post, agreeable posters are scared to respond (but will PM like crazy) and the mods end up closing the threads if the tiniest anti-CIO advice creeps into it.

why put up with mainstream boards? because i end up being a "good influence" to lurkers and even a few regular posters, so i feel like if i help even one mama stop CIO and even co-sleep, it's worth the aggravation. also because i'm an artist and i like to have a graphical sig with pics in it

anyway ... there's a thread this week celebrating one mama who decorated her 7-mo-old daughter's HELMET so pretty, and what a "trooper" she is. why does her daughter need a helmet?? because her mama let her lie alone in her bed all night, she used CIO at first and then the baby just plain gave up, and became a "good sleeper." so good her mama didn't need to check on her for 8 whole hours, in which time she gradually flattened one side of her head.

every time i try to point out that CIO *might* be at fault for any problem - nighttime vomiting, head flattening, persistent gaze avoidance, overly-clingy baby after waking, poor napping (i.e. screaming in fear of crib), etc., i get slammed with "you have NO idea what a problem baby she is" or "don't ever tell me what to do" or "my baby sleeps fine. and he's such a happy baby, he smiles at me every morning when i come in!" (well of course he smiles, he MISSED her all night!).

i finally figured out, all i have to do is post my "success stories" as if they are perfectly "the norm." like when someone posts "how do you get your baby to sleep?" that way it's always in "i ___" and "for me, ___" format. speaking one-to-one, "for me, (this or that method) works" seems non-offensive and usually sparks a good discussion.

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Old 05-12-2005, 09:02 PM
 
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meco: no wonder that preacher's kids are always the worst behaved!!!!(or at least from what i've seen!!!)

i've only ever known one indian family, but they did not practice ap parenting. i was friends with their daughter. i felt so bad for her. her parents treated her like crap and so did her older brother. not to say that anyone of any race/ethnicity practices any one type of parenting, just my experience.

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Old 05-12-2005, 09:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kathryn
So, does that mean Jo Frosts method of CIO isn't harmful? I still would never do that to my child, but I'm just curious
From what was explained, it seems the Jo Frost method is to deliberately ignore your child's need for you. If you have a child who is overstimulated and needs space for a few minutes and you KNOW this for a fact, that is not ignoring your child's needs. If you sit there and rationalize and decide you must ignore your child and it's tearing you apart inside, then it's just plain wrong.

I sometimes have to play this game in my head with my kids when they are tired. If I look at them or stimulate them in any way by my presence it wakes them up a little. So say I'm watching TV or reading a book or on the computer on my couch and my little insomniac is fighting sleep. I'll give her a pillow on the floor and she'll roll around and whine a bit and sometimes cry. But I'm right there and she can come climb on my lap if she wants. In this scenario, she would be on my lap already if she hadn't resisted and climbed down. If I get up to go to the bathroom, I disrupt her process. If I dramatically shift position on the couch, she notices and wakes up some. But if I just stay relatively still and remain calm, she falls asleep.

That's not my preferred way of helping her get to sleep, but that's a peek into my life when one of my kids gets so overtired that she can't go to sleep and none of my soothing efforts work. I don't think that is the same as putting a chair next to a crib but not holding a baby who wants to be held. I dont' think that's CIO at all, actually.
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Old 05-12-2005, 11:36 PM
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Why respond at all? It's none of my business.
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Old 05-13-2005, 12:21 AM
 
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Why respond at all? It's none of my business.
Please don't take this the wrong way... just a funny observation.
I laughed when I read your post, then read your siggy (the part about changing the world). :LOL
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Old 05-13-2005, 01:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SmilingChick
By minding my own business and not telling people how to raise their kids.
i agree with that to a point. but it becomes my business when my daughter starts to interact with the children of other parents. i'm surrounded by people of all ages who were badly parented because of society's ever-changing "norms," or the words of "experts" who are out to make a fast buck, or mis-informed medical professionals, etc. and their problems tend to influence my life and the lives of others around them. so how other people raise their kids eventually becomes a societal problem that all of us have to deal with.

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Old 05-13-2005, 01:39 AM
 
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I feel like it becomes my business when friends want to tell me all about it, in gruesome detail, or talk to me on the phone while their kiddo screams in the background, or have their kid cio at my house.

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Old 05-13-2005, 11:03 AM
 
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For me, the most difficult thing is having to defend MY parenting choice to not use CIO. Under pressure from family and friends, I did try to let my second baby CIO once. This ended in her vomiting all over herself and the crib. (Yes, it DOES happen) I swore I'd never listen to that advice again. Unfortunately, I am surrounded by CIO people. I have one friend who does the family bed thing, but the rest of my family and friends are huge CIO people and are always making snide and rude comments about our choices. We have three girls 6,5 and 2. THey ALL sleep with dh and I in our cozy king sized bed. We "outgrew" the queen size when #2 arrived.

It amazes me that we are supposed to respect the choice of CIO parents, but they don't have to respect our choices. I have cited the research and suggeted books many times, but I end up frustrated. : I actually find myself hiding the fact that we have a family bed from many people, just to avoid the need to defend our style of parenting.
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:22 AM
 
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I don't say anything directly. But...whenever I'm at one certain neighbor's house, it always seems to be in the evening at her baby's bed time. She puts the baby to bed and every single time I've ever been there (yes, EVERY single time!) the baby (now 7 months old, but this has been going on since 8 weeks) cries until I leave. The longest I can ever take it is 30 minutes, usually less though. So usually around 10 minutes later I say, "Oh, she's really upset!" Neighbor always responds with "Well, she's just overstimulated/teething/overtired." She has some excuse every time, like it isn't a regular occurance, even though I know it happens at least once a week because I'm there to witness it at least that often. Then about 5 minutes later I'll say, "I'm going to go home so you can take care of the baby. See you tomorrow!" And I pretty much just leave, no matter what she says, but I keep saying that I know she needs to take care of the baby.

I am very, very against CIO in all forms, but I never say anything except for in situations like that or in situations where someone questions MY nighttime parenting choices or makes me listen to how great CIO is. For example, if BIL, who believes my DD is going to be horrible and manipulative because we don't make her CIO, makes a stupid comment, then I will tell him how I feel about CIO. Or if he says how CIO works so well, I will just say, "I don't believe a crying baby should *EVER* be ignored." Otherwise, I don't talk about it at all.
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by writermommy
It amazes me that we are supposed to respect the choice of CIO parents, but they don't have to respect our choices. I have cited the research and suggeted books many times, but I end up frustrated. : I actually find myself hiding the fact that we have a family bed from many people, just to avoid the need to defend our style of parenting.
I totally agree. I feel like this often and it's not fair.

I've been working really hard to put my parenting right out there, not in an offensive way, but just a present way. When people are over to my house, they'd better be ready to see part of a boobie. I'm going to talk about cosleeping like it's the most natural thing in the world, because it is for us.

At first I was really, really nervous about mentioning these things, but then I realized that if my friends or family judge me it's their problem and not mine. However, what I've found to be the case is that over time things have changed...my best male friend no longer looks away when I nurse my son and I don't cover with a blanket. My husband's aunts, who declared that my child shouldn't wear anything but name-brand clothes (they're very trendy) don't leave the room when I breastfeed in front of them and don't get nervous about our mentioning cosleeping any more. They might not agree with me and I'm SURE we're some fantastic grist for the rumor mill, but they accept it in their presence and that to me is a huge success.

Even though I get very foamy-at-the-mouth and will jump up on my soapbox when challenged, most of the work I do to change public perception is to simply practice it and let people see it. It's so hard, but I've stopped worrying quite so much about someone getting offended, because it's their hangups and not mine.

Rambly, I know. Don't get me started! :LOL
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Old 05-13-2005, 11:36 AM
 
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Mainegirl, I could have totally written that exact post.

I still will catch the occasional strange look when I mention that we co-sleep or that my 2 1/2 year old is still nursing or whatever - but to us it is normal and we love the way we live so if someone else has a problem with it - it's their problem not ours.

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Old 05-13-2005, 12:14 PM
 
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Mainegirl, I could have totally written that exact post.

I still will catch the occasional strange look when I mention that we co-sleep or that my 2 1/2 year old is still nursing or whatever - but to us it is normal and we love the way we live so if someone else has a problem with it - it's their problem not ours.
It really does make me crazy.

I could very easily snap and go running through the mall with my shirt off, shouting, "BOOBIES MAKE MILK! BOOBIES MAKE MILK!"

Oh, sorry, getting off topic there. I can't think of a good way to go insane in public about cosleeping. When I think of one, though, I'll let you know!

This really makes me want to start selling advocacy t-shirts - my parents own a silkscreening shop so I could do whatever I wanted.

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Old 05-13-2005, 12:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mainegirl
I could very easily snap and go running through the mall with my shirt off, shouting, "BOOBIES MAKE MILK! BOOBIES MAKE MILK!"

: I would LOVE to see the news headlines after that!!!

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Old 05-13-2005, 12:29 PM
 
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Then she told me to get her almost 3 year old to stay in bed and not cry, she hit and threatened him with a stick. :
I had a feeling that's what you were going to say. I feel so bad for her little boy.

I'm on a mailing list with other local military wives and one of them advocated CIO the other day and recommended it to me. I just replied that, while it works for some families, it was not the right choice for our family. That was as neutral as I could be.

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Old 05-13-2005, 01:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mainegirl
I could very easily snap and go running through the mall with my shirt off, shouting, "BOOBIES MAKE MILK! BOOBIES MAKE MILK!"
: : :

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Old 05-13-2005, 06:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mainegirl
It really does make me crazy.

I could very easily snap and go running through the mall with my shirt off, shouting, "BOOBIES MAKE MILK! BOOBIES MAKE MILK!"

Oh, sorry, getting off topic there. I can't think of a good way to go insane in public about cosleeping. When I think of one, though, I'll let you know!
:LOL :LOL :LOL

Once my mom made some comment about our family bed and some reference to changing our name to the Jacsksons (Michael). :

I would like to run through her next Garden Club meeting (topless of course) screaming "I am not a child molester!"
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Old 05-14-2005, 12:45 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I find it so odd that talking parenting is a topic that people consider off limits. Why shouldn't we be able to talk openly with our friends and family members about issues that are near and dear to our hearts? In particular, CIO or co-sleeping. Sure, the choices we make as parents are highly personal, but if you make a choice that is educated and well thought out, then there should be no defensiveness or frustration in talking about it to others.

A pp mentioned that "mainstream" parents have no trouble telling those who go against the grain how wrong they are. Why is this so true? I personally don't agree with telling someone how wrong they are or how bad their choices are, but I do believe in educating and planting seeds. Therefore, if I had some good "one liners" to throw out to those who mention crying it out, then maybe a seed could be planted and eventually a mind enlightened and so on....

So many good discussions going on...so many lucky little babies out there with mommies who realize that crying to sleep is not a necessity.
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Old 05-14-2005, 01:10 AM
 
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I find it so odd that talking parenting is a topic that people consider off limits. Why shouldn't we be able to talk openly with our friends and family members about issues that are near and dear to our hearts? In particular, CIO or co-sleeping. Sure, the choices we make as parents are highly personal, but if you make a choice that is educated and well thought out, then there should be no defensiveness or frustration in talking about it to others.
Well, I think there are quite a lot of us who feel we've made very educated parenting decisions but still feel defensive or frustrated in talking with others - mainly because our parenting style is criticized or attacked or our motivations questioned.

Parenting is off-limits to a lot of people because it's through parenting that our dearest core values become clear - stuff we don't frequently talk about with people day to day. Are you religious? Hate republicans? Feel like fat people are freaks? (not you personally, the collective you) If so, these things come out in your parenting decisions and in parenting discussions.

That's why a lot of us don't talk to many people IRL about parenting stuff - we come here to do it.
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Old 05-14-2005, 02:36 PM
 
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I found a blog with an interesting discussion of CIO

Quote:
In Dr. Jay Gordon’s book on the family bed called Good Nights he has a whole chapter of arguments against the “Cry-It-Out” (CIO) philosophy. The most telling section is a three-page section quoting the major CIO proponents’ opinions on what happens if your baby cries so much that they throw up. I highly recommend reading just these two pages to see the cavalier way these authors treat both vomiting and head-banging. One author (Jodi Mindell) not only says that vomiting is “no big deal” but she actually says “For young children, vomiting can even be fun.” Another book called Healthy Sleep Habits actually encourages parents to let the child vomit and then fall asleep in their own vomit . Dr. Gordon’s priceless comment afterwards is “(We didn’t realize that falling asleep in one’s own vomit was a healthy sleep habit.)” The other books quoted don’t go quite so far as to say that you should just leave them in vomit until they sleep, but they do advocate a detached clean-up process whereby you would enter the room and undertake the clean-up without picking up, talking to, or even making eye contact with the baby. The premise is that, if the baby throws up and then gets attention and carrying, this will “reinforce” the vomiting. But to me this whole routine sounds like something out of Abu Ghrayb.
http://islamicparenting.blogspot.com...659006099.html

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Old 05-14-2005, 02:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KristiMetz
Are you religious? Hate republicans? Feel like fat people are freaks? (not you personally, the collective you) If so, these things come out in your parenting decisions and in parenting discussions.

That's why a lot of us don't talk to many people IRL about parenting stuff - we come here to do it.
So, you don't talk to people about these things IRL?

I don't see how people can have friendships without talking about our values. What do you talk about then? And how do you know your friends share similar values to your own?
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