NCSS Support Thread - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 08-22-2006, 07:25 PM
 
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Thanks for this thread. I am planning to buy the NCSS Toddlers book.

I was wondering if Pantley discusses increasing nap length? DD power naps in the morning and does well with a short nap. But if she has a short nap in the afternoon she's exhausted and needs an early bedtime. Does Pantley discuss this at all? Thanks.

**Kat**
Homeschooling her 5 year old.
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Old 08-22-2006, 07:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by henhao
I hear ya in that I was also tired of being in a dark room for hours trying to nurse the babe to sleep...I'll note that I did not have luck with the PPO. I did it over and over and had an upset baby.

What DID help was moving the nursing up in the routine. My routine is now:

nursing
books
warm bath
into dark room for pjs and new diaper
walking
into crib while awake/drowsy
(NO nursing at the end)

I had to get rid of that nursing-to-sleep association. She was not happy about it and let me know. This is when I used techniques from Good Night, Sleep Tight....
OK, can you tell me more about GNST? I just read the reviews of it on Amazon and it sounds pretty sleep-trainy--is it? Would you say it's harsher than Jay Gordon's plan? Does the GNST go into that or does it just assume you aren't nursing to sleep? Also, several of the reviews said the GNST advice on breastfeeding was "questionable"--what gives? Whoops, one more--wer'e family bed and want to stay that way for awhile. Is the GNST compatible w/ that?

Sorry for all the questions! It's just that I have sooo many sleep books and I'm not looking to buy another if it isn't for us, y'know?

But I'm glad to hear it's working so great for you!
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Old 08-22-2006, 08:45 PM
 
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hello! we have been working on ncss with our 9mos dd but our biggest issue is getting her to self soothe back to sleep after waking at night. she's in her crib which is attached to our bed and she's up every 1-2 hrs. when i say up i mean barely awake ... she fusses and tosses and turns ( and i just read that after 1-2 hrs of sleep babies go through a change in their sleep and aren't actually waking ) and after we try soothing her (putting our hands on her, gently singing etc) it usually turns into a full blown cry and i end up nursing her back to sleep. i'm not looking for an all nighter, as i enjoy our quiet night nursing times, but 8times a night is a bit much!!
it has been exhausting but i want this to work especially after receiving as a gift the book healthy sleep habits happy child ... which i think is aweful!!
has anyone read it?
anyway ... what have some of you been doing with night wakings?
bye for now and thanks!!

happy in the hills with our little star born 11-4-05
coparenting with my love
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Old 08-22-2006, 09:21 PM
 
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for this forum!!
it reassures me that i'm doing a good job with my babe and even though i'm exhausted i know it'll get better!

i had this thought ... my dd is 9.5 mos old and still pretty much exclusively bf ... so could she be legitimately hungry every two hours??? she's eating a little here and there but she gets most of her nourishment from me still and she's thriving. this is normal right??

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Old 08-22-2006, 11:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by newbymom05
OK, can you tell me more about GNST? I just read the reviews of it on Amazon and it sounds pretty sleep-trainy--is it? Would you say it's harsher than Jay Gordon's plan? Does the GNST go into that or does it just assume you aren't nursing to sleep? Also, several of the reviews said the GNST advice on breastfeeding was "questionable"--what gives? Whoops, one more--wer'e family bed and want to stay that way for awhile. Is the GNST compatible w/ that?
If you're ready to nightwean, then GNST will be for you. Her bfing advice is not good, but I ignored it. It's rare I ever find a book I completely agree with so I always ignore what I don't like and do what I do like.

I don't know about about Jay Gordon. I used techniques I found on his web site and didn't even know he had a book until recently. I tried to teach the baby not to wake between 12 and 4 am. I thought I could survive with 4 hours in a row of sleep, but she prob didn't understand why she could have booby in the dark sometimes and not others. It didn't work for us.

GNST has a whole section about family bed. Since I wasn't doing that, I didn't read it too carefully.

Good luck!
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Old 08-22-2006, 11:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by andimama
for this forum!!
it reassures me that i'm doing a good job with my babe and even though i'm exhausted i know it'll get better!

i had this thought ... my dd is 9.5 mos old and still pretty much exclusively bf ... so could she be legitimately hungry every two hours??? she's eating a little here and there but she gets most of her nourishment from me still and she's thriving. this is normal right??
I think it depends on your baby. Mine was able to feed herself starting at 6 months. I felt like since she could physically feed herself that she must be ready. Some babies are not ready until closer to a year. Such a wide range.

Until 1 year, babies are supposed to get most of their nourishment from mama milk (or other mama milk or even formula) over any other foods. With DD, I would nurse her first before giving any solids so I made sure she nursed when she was at her hungriest and then solids came second.
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Old 08-23-2006, 12:07 AM
 
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Update... after our 8x waking night, followed by our 3x waking night, dd woke TWICE the following night (bed at 9, up at 1:30, up at 6, up for good at 7:30). I think she was up three or four times last night. She's definitely sleeping longer stretches, though. After a few weeks of nursing every hour, I can really tell the difference! Not sure WHY it's happening, though... It's probably not the Tylenol, though, because we didn't give it last night. Anyway. We're way off her bedtime tonight (dinner with old friends, bed at 9:15) so who knows what will happen tonight...

Gosh, we were SO close to getting her to sleep on her own! I nursed her with the light on, sitting up in my lap. When she started to drift off, I pulled off and put her down gently, turned off the light, and lay down next to her, rubbing her back. She rolled over and almost went to sleep! But then she started tussling around for a few minutes, verrrry close... then turned over and noticed me. *sigh* I'm not going to sweat it, though.

We won't start NCSS in earnest until a few weeks into September, because I'm going back to work and I want to give her some time to get used to that. But we are definitely doing less nursing to sleep and more other methods of soothing, and I think they're having an effect -- even in the midst of teething.
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Old 08-23-2006, 09:40 AM
 
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UGH! Since we've started putting our baby to sleep earlier, he of course is waking up earlier. Yesterday and today he was bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at 6:30 am!

On a happier note though, I think we may have finally found the pre-bedtime routine that works for us. Last night was the first night in many that our little stinkpot didn't cry and throw a fit while going to sleep. This is what we did:

5 - 5:20 pm dinner
5:25 - 5:50 bath, change into p.j.s
5:55 - 6:10 breastfed
6:10 - 6:55 played quietly in low light room
7:00 - 7:10 swung in hammock with DH, while DH sang to him
7:15 DH brought him to bedroom and I held and rocked him for 2 minutes before he fell asleep! woo hoo

Please God, PLEASE don't let this be a fluke!!!!! He still woke up a million times during the night, but at least we may have one part of the problem solved.

The saga continues.....
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Old 08-23-2006, 09:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by andimama
hello! we have been working on ncss with our 9mos dd but our biggest issue is getting her to self soothe back to sleep after waking at night. she's in her crib which is attached to our bed and she's up every 1-2 hrs. when i say up i mean barely awake ... she fusses and tosses and turns ( and i just read that after 1-2 hrs of sleep babies go through a change in their sleep and aren't actually waking ) and after we try soothing her (putting our hands on her, gently singing etc) it usually turns into a full blown cry and i end up nursing her back to sleep. i'm not looking for an all nighter, as i enjoy our quiet night nursing times, but 8times a night is a bit much!!
it has been exhausting but i want this to work especially after receiving as a gift the book healthy sleep habits happy child ... which i think is aweful!!
has anyone read it?
anyway ... what have some of you been doing with night wakings?
bye for now and thanks!!
The problem you're having is the same one I'm having...but it's getting better since we've started implementing the techniques in the book (NCSS). My babe also wakes every hour or two and if I tried to do anything other than put a boob in his mouth he would get very angry and more awake. Since I've been doing PPO (albeit I put a binky in his mouth instead of trying to close it) I've noticed that I can now pat his butt when he starts to get agitated. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I am seeing progress.

Have you tried some of the ideas such as a white noise machine, a loud fan or continous music? We started using both a fan and a white noise machine and I think that along with the "shh, shh shh" sleep cues is helping.

HTH!
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Old 08-23-2006, 11:45 AM
 
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For those of you struggling with the early bedtime and early rising, it's what we've been doing for months. Dd's "routine" includes:

6:30-Rise and shine
8:30-Naptime
1:00-Naptime
6:45-Sleeptime

She occasionally wakes around 4:30 to feed, but most nights she sleeps all the way through. We're very consistent with these times and make a point to be at home or somewhere where she can nap/sleep according to her routine. Her morning nap normally lasts an hour to an hour and a half and her afternoon nap is lenghtening to past 2 hours now.

The only drawback to this routine is that we can't really go out to dinner in the evening
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Old 08-23-2006, 10:02 PM
 
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Hi mamas!

I think one important thing to remember is that you don't have to start doing everything at once. Gradually add the things that you think will be the most effective, like a bedtime routine and adjust as necessary. That's what I think is one of the coolest things about this book - the flexibility.

Maybe the moderators would be open to having a forum about sleep issues?

Still working on naps here. If anyone has discovered how to extend naps, I'd love to hear how! DS often wakes up after 10 minutes, which is really hard to deal with when I have been trying to get him to sleep for 1.5 hours. Other times, he'll sleep for 45 mins to 2 hours, not usually though. Today he has slept for 45 mins, 20 mins, and 1.5 hours - a VERY good day! Wish I knew how to repeat that!

I may have to try the PPO sometime, since DS will sleep for one long-ish stretch, but then he's up every 1-2 hours wanting to nurse.

Getting him in the cosleeper has really helped - he will sleep for 2 hours instead of just 1 many times. I think we all wake each other up rolling around and snoring - especially DH and DS!

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Old 08-23-2006, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by nubianamy
Update... after our 8x waking night, followed by our 3x waking night, dd woke TWICE the following night (bed at 9, up at 1:30, up at 6, up for good at 7:30). I think she was up three or four times last night. She's definitely sleeping longer stretches, though.

That is great news!!
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Old 08-24-2006, 12:10 AM
 
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I will post more on our situation later. I'm currently nak-ing in a dark room for 3 hours to get him to sleep.
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Old 08-24-2006, 11:35 AM
 
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We've been doing the NCSS for about a month now, with little to no progress. His napping has improved since I've been doing the sneaking in and nursing back down, but he still prefers to nap on the breast and gets upset when I set him down. His night wakings take less time than they used to, but he's up all night long. We only co-sleep part-time (early morning and one nap) because I have chronic shoulder problems that make it nearly impossible for me to nurse side-lying. So I'm up and in the recliner nursing him back down 6 or 7 times a night, on average. Some nights it's more like 12 times. He often stirs back awake when I transfer him back to the crib.

He's been teething all summer long and has gotten six of his teeth all at once. : I think this is probably why NCSS isn't working so well for us. The pop-off seems to be helping a bit, but he still will only go to sleep if he's nursing. I can't lay him down sleepy, or he wails. DH can't rock him, or he wails. I feel like I've got to get a solution for this soon or I'll go crazy. I haven't had more than 2 hours of sleep in a row for at least four months!

So that's why I'm subbing to this thread! I need better ideas on how to make this work. It just makes me laugh because Pantley says in the book not to start this while the babe is teething or uncomfortable, but DS is always uncomfortable now with the constant teething, so I don't know how to start. :
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Old 08-25-2006, 10:38 PM
 
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Amanda, I hear you. Ivy is teething now (no teeth yet, but feverish, drooling, crying, pulling ears, etc... it's so sad). It seems to go in cycles, a few days on, a week off, etc. for the past two months. I sure hope she cuts some soon, but no sign.

Ivy has been getting to bed pretty late these days. It's hard because Tom works until 7 most nights. I intend to have her asleep by 8:30 but it ends up being more like 9:30 once she finally conks out. We are bad at the routine. : Here's our routine:

- we eat dinner, Ivy plays on floor if she's happy, sits on our laps if she's fussy
- nurse
- run bath, take off clothes
- bath - I sing special bathtime songs, she plays with her bath toys
- pajamas and dipe
- descend into basement (where our bedroom is), white noise, lights on - read a book if she's not tired, skip it if she is (she's usually rubbing her eyes by now)
- nurse with lights on, on my lap, but don't let her fall asleep
- burp, I lay her down, turn off lights
- pat her back and shhh if she needs it
- if she's fussy, nurse some more and try again

I generally nurse her to sleep, then rock her to sleep if she wakes up before midnight, and nurse after that if she wakes.

Well, we've been trying to get her to fall asleep on her own, with the hope that it will help her calm herself in the night if she happens to wake (or half-wake). It seems to be working great -- she's sleeping longer stretches -- except that she isn't sleeping a very long night, only about 10 hours. Last night it was only 9:30-6:30.

She's been waking at 4 or 6 and wanting to play. I usually shush her back to sleep, whispering our cue words: "Shh shh shh, sleepy time now, shh shh shh" and nothing else, basically lying still and letting her go back to sleep. Sometimes it works, sometimes I end up nursing her down again.

This morning Tom really needed to sleep and she wouldn't go back to sleep, she was just crowing away, it was so cute! So I took her upstairs in the dark and changed her dipe, then rocked her on the rocking chair and let her zone out looking at the computer screen saver (pictures of space, very pretty) while playing some lullabies on iTunes. She eventually calmed down and nursed back to sleep on my lap for an hour.

Anyway. I'm trying to get her to sleep longer at night. All the books I've read on sleep say to put them to bed earlier and they'll sleep later, but I'm desperately afraid it'll mean she'll be up at 5:30!

So tonight she had her last nap at 7, which is kind of late for a nap, but she was SO tired, she really needed it. I ate dinner while she was out (Tom is away for the weekend), and when she woke up, I skipped the bath and put her right into her pajamas and nighttime dipe. I turned off all the upstairs lights, going through our routine of saying goodnight to everything -- I watch what she's looking at and say, "Goodnight, fan... goodnight, kitty...." like that. Then down the stairs to bed. She was yawning and rubbing her eyes right away! I nursed her sitting up until she was full, not letting her drift off to sleep, and then burped her, and finally put her down on the bed and turned off the light.

This is when she usually starts to fuss and cry, and I pick her up, nurse a few more minutes, then try again... so on. But today she rolled back and forth onto her side, then her tummy, fussing a bit; I patted her back, and... she fell asleep! Woo! I sat there for a few minutes, watching, not quite believing it. This stuff works!

Now it's 35 minutes later and she's still asleep. We'll see... I'll report back.
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Old 08-25-2006, 11:38 PM
 
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Maybe the moderators would be open to having a forum about sleep issues?

Hi all

This entire forum is intended to give you a place to discuss all sleep issues. I like the idea of a support thread (like this one) You may want to think of posting a monthly support thread so it doesn't get too long and daunting

Kelly

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Old 08-26-2006, 10:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamanurse
For those of you struggling with the early bedtime and early rising, it's what we've been doing for months. Dd's "routine" includes:

6:30-Rise and shine
8:30-Naptime
1:00-Naptime
6:45-Sleeptime
Mamanurse, Did you always have an early routine? We are trying to up our routine from going to bed at 9:30 but what I've found is that my son is in the bed less hours. His overall time in bed now is b/t 10 & 11 hours (and he's sleeping less than that) when it used to be at least 12 hours. I'm just wondering if there was an adjustment period for you all.

thanks
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Old 08-26-2006, 11:31 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KathleenSLP
Thanks for this thread. I am planning to buy the NCSS Toddlers book.

I was wondering if Pantley discusses increasing nap length? DD power naps in the morning and does well with a short nap. But if she has a short nap in the afternoon she's exhausted and needs an early bedtime. Does Pantley discuss this at all? Thanks.
I don't know about the toddler book, but the regular NCSS does address increasing nap times.

HTH
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Old 08-26-2006, 11:34 AM
 
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Here's a lovely example of my woes...and this is a NEW woe since I've started all this NCSS crap...Gilbert has been waking up early, around 6:30 am even if he goes to sleep around 7:30 or 8:30 pm. I try to nurse him back to sleep but it only lasts as long as my boob is in his mouth. Today we made it to 7:10. (This is a baby that used to sleep all by himself until at least 9 in the morning!) At about 8:45 this morning he started showing signs of being sleepy so I put him in the Mei Tai as always and got him to fall asleep in our bedroom where he sleeps. He was only lightly asleep though. Lately I've been damned if I try to keep him in the Mei Tai until he's "really" asleep and I've been damned if I don't. He woke up while trying to put him from the Mei Tai to the bed so I used the ole fallback, I nursed him to sleep. He fell asleep, I unlatched him and stuck a binky in his mouth but he was restless so I started patting his butt. I patted his butt until my arm about fell off and he seemed pretty set. I got up and before I opened up the door he was whining and moving around. Patting didn't work this time, neither did nursing. He appeared to be awake so here he is playing by my side while I type! I just don't get it.

I'm open to hear advice from anyone, just please don't suggest that it is teething or a growth spurt! He's been going through that since he was 4 months old. LOL thanks
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Old 08-26-2006, 11:49 AM
 
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Mamanurse, Did you always have an early routine? We are trying to up our routine from going to bed at 9:30 but what I've found is that my son is in the bed less hours. His overall time in bed now is b/t 10 & 11 hours (and he's sleeping less than that) when it used to be at least 12 hours. I'm just wondering if there was an adjustment period for you all.

thanks
We started putting Livi to bed early at the advice of our pediatrician. She was ACTUALLY right about this one thing. Dd was screaming from about 7-10 or 11 when we put her to bed every night. We thought it was the typical colic. Gradually, we started to move her routine earlier and earlier. She's always woken up sometime between 6-7 no matter what time she goes to bed. As soon as she started going to bed earlier, the terrible inconsolable crying stopped.
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Old 08-26-2006, 10:47 PM
 
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Update from last night... she woke 4x, which isn't too bad considering she's been feverish and hurting from teething. She woke 11:30, 12:45, then she woke at 4am to play... but since dh is away, I just let her play on the bed and she fell back asleep again (as did I) until 6, then nursed back to sleep until 7.

We went a bit earlier tonight, she was asleep by 7:45. That was after a VERY long 2 hour bout of napping from 3:30-5:30. We started bath time at 7 and she was still rubbing her eyes before we made it downstairs! I'm going to keep inching it back and see what happens.
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Old 08-26-2006, 10:49 PM
 
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Question: How do you do the PPO if your baby falls asleep as soon as she gets the nipple in her mouth?? We always do the PPO but Ivy is so exhausted sometimes, she just zonks out in 5 seconds. My understanding is you're not supposed to let them fall asleep with the nipple, just wait until they're calm and flutter-sucking.
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Old 08-27-2006, 12:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by nubianamy
Question: How do you do the PPO if your baby falls asleep as soon as she gets the nipple in her mouth?? We always do the PPO but Ivy is so exhausted sometimes, she just zonks out in 5 seconds. My understanding is you're not supposed to let them fall asleep with the nipple, just wait until they're calm and flutter-sucking.
I let him fall asleep and then pull-off while he's flutter sucking in his dreams. It's one of the only parts of NCSS that's been working for us. He will pull-off on his own now maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 times, but anything at all is an improvement. When we co-sleep, he used to stay on all night. Now I can pull him off without disturbing him almost every time. I'd say go ahead and do it even when she conks out right away--it's not going to hurt, and it might help.
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Old 08-28-2006, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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http://communications.fullerton.edu/...fety/sleep.htm

Found the above info on sleep deprivation. I don't think we parents were meant to be up all night.
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Old 08-29-2006, 12:07 PM
 
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We've been doing NCSS for about three months. 7.5 mo. old DD now has a bed routine that goes like this:

7:00 Walk
7:20 Reading
7:30 Bath, then lotion and pjs
7:40 Into the rocking chair for a last feeding (she's no longer nursing), followed by a gentle cuddle. She uses a pacifier.:
By 8, her eyes are usually closing and if I catch it in time, I put her down just as she falls asleep.

The last few nights I have been trying to put her down awake and soothe her with back rubs and "hush hush" "night night" and "sleepy sleeps." Last night it took until 8:40...I can deal with that.

The problem is that she wakes at 3:30am. And is wide awake. One night I got her to go back to sleep on her own, but she usually ends up in bed with me until 6ish...But even so it take more than an HOUR to get eher back to sleep!

DH is away til October, so these wakings are all on me. (I wish the dog would help!)
My dream: asleep from 8pm until 6:30am.

Will getting her to fall asleep on her own help?
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Old 08-29-2006, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Martita --

Welcome. Yes, I think getting her to sleep on her own will help. I used to nurse my baby to sleep. It took longer and longer and longer. Using the pacifier is kind of the same idea...they use sucking to go to sleep.

You could try Pantley's idea of PPO except with the pacifier...take it out when she's verrrry drowsy but not all the way asleep. She has more info on this process in the book. Sometimes it can take a while to make it work.

In Good Night Sleep Tight, the author would say to get the baby relaxed and then put her in her crib to learn how to fall asleep on her own while staying in the room to comfort (not cio). For us, once baby could fall asleep on her own, the nightwakings went down a lot.

Something I've been curious about is that a lot of folks here say that snuggling babies back to sleep and nursing them to sleep is a-okay. Maybe it is. I guess they outgrow that in 2-5 years. But I think they end up waking up more. Is that good for them or not? I don't know the answer...they would wake up more when they really need sleep for growing. Others would argue babies NEED to nurse for food and comfort. It's a topic that interests me as there seems to be such division over it....thinking out loud...
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:44 PM
 
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Martita, my 5.5mo dd is waking between 4-5 and is ready to play, too. It would be a pain in the a** if it wasn't so darn cute. This morning she crawled over to my face and tried to nurse my nose, then rolled back against dh and snuggled him for a while... we were trying not to crack up. I walked her for about 10 min when she gave herself hiccups. She fell back asleep a few times with nursing and sshhhing until we got up at 7:15.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:11 PM
 
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I got a copy of the NCSS from DH (bless his heart) but he didn't know I already had it (lol!). Anyway, so I have an extra copy and I know there are some ladies on here that would like to have the book but don't have the money. Let me know and I will send you the extra copy.
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Old 09-03-2006, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Arwen'smommy -- That is so sweet of you!

Nubianamy--Nursing your nose! Too cute.
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Old 09-03-2006, 09:43 PM
 
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Hi there. I'm Sarah, and I am sleep deprived. I currently cosleep with my 9 mo daughter and it's not working for us. She's taken over the bed so that my DH is sleeping on the couch, wakes me up every 2 hours or less to nurse, and goes through at least one restless spell every night that lasts over an hour during which I cannot sleep. I am going to go buy NCSS tomorrow.

...and she just woke up from her nap which only lasted 40 min. She had one other 40 min nap today and she sleeps from about 9 pm to 8:30 am... not quite enough I don't think...

Postpartum doula & certified breastfeeding educator, mama to an amazing girl (11/05) and a wee little boy (3/13).

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